Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu bugs?

[John Baldwin]

On Monday, July 18, 2011 3:40:19 am Doug Barton wrote:
> On 07/17/2011 20:40, Devin Teske wrote:
> > What release are you running?
> 
> Recent HEAD

I upgraded my desktop at home to HEAD yesterday and tested this via a 'boot 
kernel.GENERIC' at the loader prompt and it did the same as the previous 
loader (module_path was /boot/kernel.GENERIC;/boot/kernel;/boot/modules), so I 
think the new boot loader menus work fine in this regard.

How exactly are you reproducing your broken case Doug?  Do you have any 
settings in /boot/loader.conf or /boot/loader.conf.local?

-- 
John Baldwin
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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu bugs?

[Doug Barton]

On 07/17/2011 20:40, Devin Teske wrote:
> What release are you running?

Recent HEAD


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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu bugs?

[Devin Teske]

Hi Doug,

On Jul 17, 2011, at 5:08 PM, Doug Barton wrote:

> There also seems to be a bug with the new boot loader that if you bounce
> out to the prompt and do 'boot kernel.other' the kern.module_path sysctl
> is not updated. It still lists /boot/kernel first; but that should be
> replaced by /boot/kernel.other.

I had a chance to try this out in a VM.

I just tested this in FreeBSD 8.1-RELEASE with my loader_menu applied (exactly 
what's available from rev 222417).

The results I get are actually what you describe should happen.

Here's the steps I took:

1. Made sure all "kernel=" and "module_path=" lines were commented out in 
loader.conf(5)
2. Moved my kernel to /boot/kernel/kernel
3. Made a copy of my kernel to /boot/kernel2/kernel
4. Rebooted. Didn't touch anything. Verified that when I came up, `sysctl -n 
kern.bootfile' was /boot/kernel/kernel. Good. We have a baseline operation that 
things are working as-expected without interrupting the boot-process (that is 
to say, that loader(8) loaded the kernel in it's default location).
5. Reboot again. This time, I press Escape to the drop to the loader(8) prompt.
6. I took "boot /boot/kernel2"
7. I see the new kernel being loaded.
8. The kernel executes.
9. My system boots as-expected.
10. The value of sysctl kern.module_path produces (drum roll): 
/boot/kernel2;/boot/kernel;/boot/modules

What release are you running? I can't replicate the bug in 8.1-RELEASE with the 
new loader menu applied. It's possible that the bug was introduced some other 
way.
-- 
Devin

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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu bugs?

[Devin Teske]

On Jul 17, 2011, at 5:08 PM, Doug Barton wrote:

> There also seems to be a bug with the new boot loader that if you bounce
> out to the prompt and do 'boot kernel.other'

Hmmm...

The last change to the FICL word "boot" was 10 years, 9 months ago, by dcs in 
version 1.19 of sys/boot/forth/loader.4th.

I know that I haven't touched that word, but I'll have to double-check to see 
if I'm overriding it in any way.

I can see by the code in loader.4th that "boot" will automatically call 
"unload" for you if/when an argument is present (e.g., "boot kernel.other").

I personally have never used that syntax (I've always said "unload" 
before-hand), but I will take it from the code that this is supposed to work.

> the kern.module_path sysctl
> is not updated.

If you want to change module_path for loader(8), you should set it in 
loader.conf(5). The FICL word "start" (as seen in /boot/loader.rc) will:

(a) read loader.conf(5) and then
(b) take your customized module_path and
(c) search for a suitable kernel in those directories
NOTE: that is, if "kernel" was not already set -- which it is, by default, to 
"/boot/kernel"

sysctl(8) is not (and, IIRC, cannot be) influenced by loader environment 
variables.

However, you can retrieve the loader(8) variables via kenv(1).

If you wanted to, you could create an rc.d or RCNG script to use kenv(1) to do 
things with the loader(8) variables (such as drop them into loader.conf(5) or 
sysctl.conf(5)). Be careful though.


> It still lists /boot/kernel first; but that should be
> replaced by /boot/kernel.other.

I'm not familiar with the latter behavior.
--
Devin

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Re: FW: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu bugs?

[Doug Barton]

There also seems to be a bug with the new boot loader that if you bounce
out to the prompt and do 'boot kernel.other' the kern.module_path sysctl
is not updated. It still lists /boot/kernel first; but that should be
replaced by /boot/kernel.other.

-- 

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-- OK Go

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Yours for the right price.  :)  http://SupersetSolutions.com/

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FW: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu bugs?

[Teske, Devin]

-Original Message-
From: Devin Teske [mailto:dte...@vicor.com] 
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 4:45 PM
To: 'Andrey Fesenko'; 'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org'
Cc: Julian Elischer; Teske, Devin (devin.te...@fisglobal.com)
Subject: RE: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu bugs?

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrey Fesenko [mailto:f0and...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 12:33 AM
> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; dte...@vicor.com
> Subject: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu bugs?
> 
> Last Changed Rev: 224125

Are you sure that's the right rev? That rev (by dougb) appears to be related to 
default empty zones in `/etc/namedb/named.conf', and completely unrelated to my 
rev 222417 (which you appear to be referencing below).


> Not update share/examples/bootforth/* any files old version loader.
> 
> file sys/boot/forth/loader.conf
> ##
> ###  Loader settings  
> ##
> 
> not actual logo list
> #loader_logo="fbsdbw" # Desired logo: fbsdbw, beastiebw,
> beastie, none
> need
> #loader_logo="orbbw"  # Desired logo: orb, orbbw, fbsdbw, beastiebw,
> beastie, none
> 
> maybe over loader option.

It took me awhile, but I think I see what you're saying.

That the following patch needs to be applied to head/sys/boot/forth/loader.conf 
to be consistent with the changes that were made against 
head/sys/boot/forth/loader.conf.5 (in rev 222417):


--- loader.conf.origSun Jul 17 16:37:35 2011
+++ loader.conf Sun Jul 17 16:38:09 2011
@@ -47,7 +47,8 @@
# escape to the loader prompt, set to
# "NO" to disable autobooting
 #beastie_disable="NO"  # Turn the beastie boot menu on and off
-#loader_logo="fbsdbw"  # Desired logo: fbsdbw, beastiebw, beastie, none
+#loader_logo="orbbw"   # Desired logo: orb, orbbw, fbsdbw, beastiebw,
+   # beastie, none
 #comconsole_speed="9600"   # Set the current serial console speed
 #console="vidconsole"  # A comma separated list of console(s)
 #currdev="disk1s1a"# Set the current device


Does anybody object to the above patch?
-- 
Devin

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[RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu bugs?

[Andrey Fesenko]

Last Changed Rev: 224125

Not update share/examples/bootforth/* any files old version loader.

file sys/boot/forth/loader.conf
##
###  Loader settings  
##

not actual logo list
#loader_logo="fbsdbw"   # Desired logo: fbsdbw, beastiebw, beastie, none
need
#loader_logo="orbbw"# Desired logo: orb, orbbw, fbsdbw, beastiebw,
beastie, none

maybe over loader option.
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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Devin Teske]

On May 29, 2011, at 6:08 PM, Julian Elischer wrote:

> On 5/29/11 2:53 PM, Devin Teske wrote:
>> On May 4, 2011, at 8:57 AM, Devin Teske wrote:
>> 
>>> On May 3, 2011, at 9:06 PM, Jason Hellenthal wrote:
>>> 
 Devin,
 
 
 On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 08:45:14PM -0700, Devin Teske wrote:
> On Apr 30, 2011, at 8:11 PM, Jason Hellenthal wrote:
> 
>> Devin,
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:00:47PM -0700, Devin Teske wrote:
 Would be nice: "uname -v" of the kernel it will boot.
>>> That's a bit more technically challenging. I'll have another look at the
>>> FICL words available, but I don't recall if there was a way to crawl the
>>> object space of the items loaded with ``load'' (looking for the uname). 
>>> I'm
>>> open to suggestions if you had an idea of how to do this in Forth -- 
>>> else
>>> I'd think this would need to be a loader(8) modification.
>> How about forgetting a mention of unmae&  ... instead look into if we
>> can support some sort of bootcode versioning to be displayed on the
>> screen. This would serve to be very helpful in the future when for say a
>> new version of bootcode for ZFS has to be installed then it would be
>> easy for announce@ to simply say "A new version of ZFS has been MFCd and
>> requires boot version>= X. To find out your version please see the
>> bottom right hand corner of your boot screen."
>> 
>> I would place a pretty good bet that loader(8) could be modified to
>> export some sort of versioning of the bootcode to make this a easier
>> stance for the user to gather information before a upgrade.
> Piece of cake! If you give me a loader(8) that exports a "version" 
> environment variable, I'll give the Forth functionality in mere seconds. 
> It's already been developed (but was not packaged).
> 
> I have a module named "version.4th" which prints the value of the 
> "version" environment variable at the bottom-right of the screen 
> underneath the beastie logo.
> 
> Since you mention this, I'll add the code to the next package and if/when 
> loader(8) ever exports a "version" environment variable, it will just 
> magically appear. How's that sound?
> 
 Sounds perfect!
>>> One minor adjustment... can we make that environment variable 
>>> "loader_version" instead of "version"?
>>> 
>>> The code is already in for "loader_version". Whatever string you export 
>>> into that environment variable will be displayed on-screen at bottom-right, 
>>> right-justified.
>> The code for thew new menu has been committed to HEAD.
>> 
>> http://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=222417
>> 
>> Now...
>> 
>> Who wants to make the necessary patch to loader(8) to export $loader_version 
>> text?
>> 
>> Or maybe a suggestion on another list worth including on this?
> I suggest this move to -current since it is checked on there,
> and a port be kept for 8.x/7.x
> 
> Devin, a fix was made at 222450 as it was broken for ppc.
> 

Regarding fix 222450:

Oops. Slight oversight. Thanks for the one-liner fix.

Looks like we'll have to do the same thing for the following:

sys/boot/ia64/common/Makefile
sys/boot/powerpc/ps3/Makefile
sys/boot/sparc64/loader/Makefile

Here's a patch that can be applied by anyone willing:

http://druidbsd.sourceforge.net/download/loader_menu-1.6.1-HEAD20110521092952-fixup.patch

-- 
Devin

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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Julian Elischer]

On 5/29/11 2:53 PM, Devin Teske wrote:

On May 4, 2011, at 8:57 AM, Devin Teske wrote:


On May 3, 2011, at 9:06 PM, Jason Hellenthal wrote:


Devin,


On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 08:45:14PM -0700, Devin Teske wrote:

On Apr 30, 2011, at 8:11 PM, Jason Hellenthal wrote:


Devin,


On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:00:47PM -0700, Devin Teske wrote:

Would be nice: "uname -v" of the kernel it will boot.

That's a bit more technically challenging. I'll have another look at the
FICL words available, but I don't recall if there was a way to crawl the
object space of the items loaded with ``load'' (looking for the uname). I'm
open to suggestions if you had an idea of how to do this in Forth -- else
I'd think this would need to be a loader(8) modification.

How about forgetting a mention of unmae&  ... instead look into if we
can support some sort of bootcode versioning to be displayed on the
screen. This would serve to be very helpful in the future when for say a
new version of bootcode for ZFS has to be installed then it would be
easy for announce@ to simply say "A new version of ZFS has been MFCd and
requires boot version>= X. To find out your version please see the
bottom right hand corner of your boot screen."

I would place a pretty good bet that loader(8) could be modified to
export some sort of versioning of the bootcode to make this a easier
stance for the user to gather information before a upgrade.

Piece of cake! If you give me a loader(8) that exports a "version" environment 
variable, I'll give the Forth functionality in mere seconds. It's already been developed 
(but was not packaged).

I have a module named "version.4th" which prints the value of the "version" 
environment variable at the bottom-right of the screen underneath the beastie logo.

Since you mention this, I'll add the code to the next package and if/when loader(8) ever 
exports a "version" environment variable, it will just magically appear. How's 
that sound?


Sounds perfect!

One minor adjustment... can we make that environment variable "loader_version" instead of 
"version"?

The code is already in for "loader_version". Whatever string you export into 
that environment variable will be displayed on-screen at bottom-right, right-justified.

The code for thew new menu has been committed to HEAD.

http://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=222417

Now...

Who wants to make the necessary patch to loader(8) to export $loader_version 
text?

Or maybe a suggestion on another list worth including on this?

I suggest this move to -current since it is checked on there,
and a port be kept for 8.x/7.x

Devin, a fix was made at 222450 as it was broken for ppc.



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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Devin Teske]

On May 4, 2011, at 8:57 AM, Devin Teske wrote:

> 
> On May 3, 2011, at 9:06 PM, Jason Hellenthal wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Devin,
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 08:45:14PM -0700, Devin Teske wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Apr 30, 2011, at 8:11 PM, Jason Hellenthal wrote:
>>> 
 
 Devin,
 
 
 On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:00:47PM -0700, Devin Teske wrote:
> 
>> Would be nice: "uname -v" of the kernel it will boot.
> 
> That's a bit more technically challenging. I'll have another look at the
> FICL words available, but I don't recall if there was a way to crawl the
> object space of the items loaded with ``load'' (looking for the uname). 
> I'm
> open to suggestions if you had an idea of how to do this in Forth -- else
> I'd think this would need to be a loader(8) modification.
 
 How about forgetting a mention of unmae & ... instead look into if we
 can support some sort of bootcode versioning to be displayed on the
 screen. This would serve to be very helpful in the future when for say a
 new version of bootcode for ZFS has to be installed then it would be
 easy for announce@ to simply say "A new version of ZFS has been MFCd and
 requires boot version >= X. To find out your version please see the
 bottom right hand corner of your boot screen."
 
 I would place a pretty good bet that loader(8) could be modified to
 export some sort of versioning of the bootcode to make this a easier
 stance for the user to gather information before a upgrade.
>>> 
>>> Piece of cake! If you give me a loader(8) that exports a "version" 
>>> environment variable, I'll give the Forth functionality in mere seconds. 
>>> It's already been developed (but was not packaged).
>>> 
>>> I have a module named "version.4th" which prints the value of the "version" 
>>> environment variable at the bottom-right of the screen underneath the 
>>> beastie logo.
>>> 
>>> Since you mention this, I'll add the code to the next package and if/when 
>>> loader(8) ever exports a "version" environment variable, it will just 
>>> magically appear. How's that sound?
>>> 
>> 
>> Sounds perfect!
> 
> One minor adjustment... can we make that environment variable 
> "loader_version" instead of "version"?
> 
> The code is already in for "loader_version". Whatever string you export into 
> that environment variable will be displayed on-screen at bottom-right, 
> right-justified.

The code for thew new menu has been committed to HEAD.

http://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=222417

Now...

Who wants to make the necessary patch to loader(8) to export $loader_version 
text?

Or maybe a suggestion on another list worth including on this?
-- 
Devin

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[RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.6

[Devin Teske]

Hi Hackers,

I'm pleased to announce version 1.6 of my new boot loader menu software.

NOTE: Version 1.6 has the same look and feel as version 1.5. No new screenshots 
needed.

This is a general cleanup with the below notable changes:

1. Change chkpassword.4th to query "password" environment variable instead of 
"loader_password" (for backward compatibility)
2. Rename chkpasswd function in chkpassword.4th to check-password (for backward 
compatibility)
3. Rename chkpassword.4th to check-password.4th (for consistency)
4. Replace conflicting check-password function in /boot/loader.4th with 
"include /boot/check-password.4th"
5. Remove conflicting password routines from /boot/support.4th
6. [Re-]Implement beastie-start in beastie.4th (for backward compatibility)
7. Replace loader.rc in the package with the default version provided on 
i386-compatible installs
8. Remove default delay in loading /boot/menu.rc (still available by setting 
loader_delay in loader.conf(5) but disabled by default now)
9. Add $FreeBSD$ CVS keywords in preparation of commit to HEAD
10. Fix a couple typos in comments
11. Add support for autoboot_delay="NO" or autoboot_delay="-1" in menu.4th to 
disable the menu timeout
12. Add missing cleanup routine to menu-clear in menu.4th
13. Add the following manpages:
/usr/share/man/man8/beastie.4th.8.gz
/usr/share/man/man8/brand.4th.8.gz
/usr/share/man/man8/check-password.4th.8.gz
/usr/share/man/man8/color.4th.8.gz
/usr/share/man/man8/delay.4th.8.gz
/usr/share/man/man8/menu.4th.8.gz
/usr/share/man/man8/version.4th.8.gz
14. Update loader.conf.5 manpage to include documentation on new loader_logo 
values (``orb'' and ``orbbw''), also documenting the new default (orbbw).

You can get your update from either:

http://druidbsd.sourceforge.net/
or
http://druidbsd.sourceforge.net/download/loader_menu-1.6.tgz
-- 
Devin

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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.5

[Tom Evans]

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Andriy Gapon  wrote:
> on 16/05/2011 14:34 Tom Evans said the following:
>> I disagree entirely, the boot loader knows nothing of kernels
>
> Eh?  Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying, but:
>
> set kernel=kernel.old
> boot
>
> IMHO, it shows that you can tell the loader about kernels.
> Having a kernel-choice sub-menu would be convenient.
>

s/boot loader/boot manager/

My bad for the confusion.

The loader should definitely know about kernels; the boot manager,
which knows about BIOS bootable drives/partitions only, should not.

Cheers

Tom
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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.5

[Andriy Gapon]

on 16/05/2011 14:34 Tom Evans said the following:
> I disagree entirely, the boot loader knows nothing of kernels

Eh?  Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying, but:

set kernel=kernel.old
boot

IMHO, it shows that you can tell the loader about kernels.
Having a kernel-choice sub-menu would be convenient.

-- 
Andriy Gapon
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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.5

[Tom Evans]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk
 wrote:
> My main idea is that the present Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.5 is a very
> good menu . Instead of destroying its elegant structure , the already
> available FreeBSD Boot Loader ( actually Kernel selection ) menu could be
> improved and may be used IF IT IS SUITABLE for the USER ( otherwise the user
> may not select it during installation ) .
>

I disagree entirely, the boot loader knows nothing of kernels, it only
presents the bootable drives/partitions as the BIOS sees it. Calling
the boot loader a kernel selection menu is disingenuous, since this is
simply a by-product of having different kernels on different
drives/partitions, whilst the most commonly desired kernel selection
(kernel vs kernel.old) is not available via this method.

Cheers

Tom
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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.5

[Mehmet Erol Sanliturk]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Devin Teske  wrote:

> On May 14, 2011, at 8:14 AM, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <
> m.e.sanlit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 3:15 AM, Michael Reifenberger <
> m...@reifenberger.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> this looks very promising!
>>
>> While you are working on the loader front currently,
>> would it be possible to implement a "Boot kernel.old"
>> menue item that unloads all current loaded modules and re-loads
>> everithing from /boot/kernel.old?
>>
>> Its difficult to handle manually in the loader (esp. handling the
>> zpool.cache file ) and I got bitten by this issue recently in a ZFS only
>> environment.
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Bye/2
>> ---
>> Michael Reifenberger
>>  mich...@reifenberger.com
>>  http://www.Reifenberger.com
>>
>>
>
> There have been suggestions from many regarding "kernel selection" and even
> "root selection" options. I've responded in earnest on at least one such
> suggestion (stating that there are plans to incorporate these features at
> some later date), though I have been short on details (compared to my normal
> verbosity).
>
> These suggestions will have to be slated for a different commit and cannot
> make it into the initial one. A subset of the technical reasons are
> enumerated below:
>
> 1. Currently, the "start" FICL word provided by
> /usr/src/sys/boot/forth/loader.4th -- which reads in
> /boot/defaults/loader.conf and later /boot/loader.conf (if it exists), among
> other things -- pre-loads the configured kernel.
>
> This would need to change. We still want to call "start" from the onset of
> /boot/loader.rc to pick up any variables configured in loader.conf(5), but
> we don't want to load the kernel yet (though modules may be OK). I would
> change the overloaded "boot" word to load the kernel prior to calling the
> built-in boot ( N -- ) construct.
>
> 2. A non-trivial amount of Forth will need to be written to probe for a
> list of kernels to be presented.
>
> Again, that is just a subset of the technical affronts we'll face. I'd like
> to see this functionality pushed to a later SVN rev -- perhaps after MFC of
> the current rev planned for the current state.
>
>
> Many of the Unix/Linux operating systems are utilizing a Kernel Selection (
> let's call it Selection instead of Loader ) menu , such as GRUB or LILO , or
> ,
> in FreeBSD , when Kernel Selection menu is selected instead of booting
> directly from boot sector .
>
> Actually , a Kernel Selection menu in front of the Boot Loader menu is a
> more flexible method :
> First select kernel , then select its booting structure with the above
> described Boot Loader menu .
>
>
> My opinion is that , they should NOT be COMBINED into one single menu ,
> because , in the same system , even there may be other kernels to be booted
> .
>
>
> This would be technically simple to achieve but I'm wondering if the
> community would tolerate having a 2x 10-second timeout (one for kernel
> selection menu, and another for the boot/option menu). Then, if later a
> root-selection is provided, would that go into the kernel selection menu or
> a new menu (now requiring 30-seconds to boot without a human present).
>
> I want the menu with the "Boot" option to be front-and-center, continuing
> to allow the user to boot immediately with a single key ('1', 'b', or
> ENTER) if present (and desired), or if not present boot after a single
> 10-second timeout.
>
> ASIDE: There are more boot toggles/variables mentioned in loader(8) than
> are knobs in the boot menu (both old and new -- and more than can fit on a
> single screen even). Such as boot_ddb, boot_gdb, boot_multicons, boot_mute,
> boot_pause, boot_serial, and comconsole_speed. That's 7 additional options
> that would likely be a good candidate for a "side menu" (perhaps a "More
> Options" menuitem off the main menu).
>
> ASIDE: A root-selection menuitem could potentially present the normal root
> in addition to "ask", "cdrom" and "embedded". Each of which would set
> (respectively) "boot_askname", "boot_cdrom" and "boot_dfltroot". See
> loader(8) for additional details.
>
>
> Some operating systems , such as OpenSolaris and Mandriva Linux , after
> updating the kernel , they are keeping previous kernel in the Kernel
> Selection menu , under the new kernel name item .
>
>
> I've often felt that this could be improved upon by the Linux community.
> IMHO neither Grub nor LiLo present a user-friendly way of setting options
> for the selected kernel and concurrently leaves many Linux desktop-users
> befuddled and uninterested. The use-case is taking a box into single-user
> mode: FreeBSD achieves this with either one keystroke (current loader menu)
> or two (code being committed to HEAD; e.g., s, ENTER); compare that with
> the steps required to boot Linux into single-user mode from either LiLo or
> Grub (disclaimer: this might have been updated in some of the later Linux
> distros).
>
> NOTE: If you have a pre-

Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.5

[Devin Teske]

On May 14, 2011, at 8:14 AM, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk  
wrote:

> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 3:15 AM, Michael Reifenberger  
> wrote:
> Hi,
> this looks very promising!
> 
> While you are working on the loader front currently,
> would it be possible to implement a "Boot kernel.old"
> menue item that unloads all current loaded modules and re-loads
> everithing from /boot/kernel.old?
> 
> Its difficult to handle manually in the loader (esp. handling the zpool.cache 
> file ) and I got bitten by this issue recently in a ZFS only environment.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Bye/2
> ---
> Michael Reifenberger
> mich...@reifenberger.com
> http://www.Reifenberger.com
> 
> 

There have been suggestions from many regarding "kernel selection" and even 
"root selection" options. I've responded in earnest on at least one such 
suggestion (stating that there are plans to incorporate these features at some 
later date), though I have been short on details (compared to my normal 
verbosity).

These suggestions will have to be slated for a different commit and cannot make 
it into the initial one. A subset of the technical reasons are enumerated below:

1. Currently, the "start" FICL word provided by 
/usr/src/sys/boot/forth/loader.4th -- which reads in /boot/defaults/loader.conf 
and later /boot/loader.conf (if it exists), among other things -- pre-loads the 
configured kernel.

This would need to change. We still want to call "start" from the onset of 
/boot/loader.rc to pick up any variables configured in loader.conf(5), but we 
don't want to load the kernel yet (though modules may be OK). I would change 
the overloaded "boot" word to load the kernel prior to calling the built-in 
boot ( N -- ) construct.

2. A non-trivial amount of Forth will need to be written to probe for a list of 
kernels to be presented.

Again, that is just a subset of the technical affronts we'll face. I'd like to 
see this functionality pushed to a later SVN rev -- perhaps after MFC of the 
current rev planned for the current state.


> Many of the Unix/Linux operating systems are utilizing a Kernel Selection ( 
> let's call it Selection instead of Loader ) menu , such as GRUB or LILO , or ,
> in FreeBSD , when Kernel Selection menu is selected instead of booting 
> directly from boot sector .
> 
> Actually , a Kernel Selection menu in front of the Boot Loader menu is a more 
> flexible method :
> First select kernel , then select its booting structure with the above 
> described Boot Loader menu .
> 
> My opinion is that , they should NOT be COMBINED into one single menu , 
> because , in the same system , even there may be other kernels to be booted .

This would be technically simple to achieve but I'm wondering if the community 
would tolerate having a 2x 10-second timeout (one for kernel selection menu, 
and another for the boot/option menu). Then, if later a root-selection is 
provided, would that go into the kernel selection menu or a new menu (now 
requiring 30-seconds to boot without a human present).

I want the menu with the "Boot" option to be front-and-center, continuing to 
allow the user to boot immediately with a single key ('1', 'b', or ENTER) if 
present (and desired), or if not present boot after a single 10-second timeout.

ASIDE: There are more boot toggles/variables mentioned in loader(8) than are 
knobs in the boot menu (both old and new -- and more than can fit on a single 
screen even). Such as boot_ddb, boot_gdb, boot_multicons, boot_mute, 
boot_pause, boot_serial, and comconsole_speed. That's 7 additional options that 
would likely be a good candidate for a "side menu" (perhaps a "More Options" 
menuitem off the main menu).

ASIDE: A root-selection menuitem could potentially present the normal root in 
addition to "ask", "cdrom" and "embedded". Each of which would set 
(respectively) "boot_askname", "boot_cdrom" and "boot_dfltroot". See loader(8) 
for additional details.


> Some operating systems , such as OpenSolaris and Mandriva Linux , after 
> updating the kernel , they are keeping previous kernel in the Kernel 
> Selection menu , under the new kernel name item .

I've often felt that this could be improved upon by the Linux community. IMHO 
neither Grub nor LiLo present a user-friendly way of setting options for the 
selected kernel and concurrently leaves many Linux desktop-users befuddled and 
uninterested. The use-case is taking a box into single-user mode: FreeBSD 
achieves this with either one keystroke (current loader menu) or two (code 
being committed to HEAD; e.g., s, ENTER); compare that with the steps required 
to boot Linux into single-user mode from either LiLo or Grub (disclaimer: this 
might have been updated in some of the later Linux distros).

NOTE: If you have a pre-configured Grub or LiLo entry for easily entering into 
single-user mode, note that not everybody is so fortunate (either because of 
their distro or due to lack of manual configuration). Even still, a variable 
amount of cursor/arrow keys

Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.5

[Mehmet Erol Sanliturk]

On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 3:15 AM, Michael Reifenberger  wrote:

> Hi,
> this looks very promising!
>
> While you are working on the loader front currently,
> would it be possible to implement a "Boot kernel.old"
> menue item that unloads all current loaded modules and re-loads
> everithing from /boot/kernel.old?
>
> Its difficult to handle manually in the loader (esp. handling the
> zpool.cache file ) and I got bitten by this issue recently in a ZFS only
> environment.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Bye/2
> ---
> Michael Reifenberger
> mich...@reifenberger.com
> http://www.Reifenberger.com
>
>
Many of the Unix/Linux operating systems are utilizing a Kernel Selection (
let's call it Selection instead of Loader ) menu , such as GRUB or LILO , or
,
in FreeBSD , when Kernel Selection menu is selected instead of booting
directly from boot sector .

Actually , a Kernel Selection menu in front of the Boot Loader menu is a
more flexible method :
First select kernel , then select its booting structure with the above
described Boot Loader menu .

My opinion is that , they should NOT be COMBINED into one single menu ,
because , in the same system , even there may be other kernels to be booted
.

Some operating systems , such as OpenSolaris and Mandriva Linux , after
updating the kernel , they are keeping previous kernel in the Kernel
Selection menu , under the new kernel name item .

Such a system may be employed for the FreeBSD : If a kernel.old is generated
, it may be inserted into Kernel Selection menu automatically . If , at
present , there is no kernel selection menu but boot sector is used directly
, kernel build system may modify that structure also to utilize a Kernel
Selection menu .


Thank you very much .


Mehmet Erol Sanliturk
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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.5

[Michael Reifenberger]

Hi,
this looks very promising!

While you are working on the loader front currently,
would it be possible to implement a "Boot kernel.old"
menue item that unloads all current loaded modules and re-loads
everithing from /boot/kernel.old?

Its difficult to handle manually in the loader (esp. handling the zpool.cache 
file ) and I got bitten by this issue recently in a ZFS only environment.


Thanks in advance!

Bye/2
---
Michael Reifenberger
mich...@reifenberger.com
http://www.Reifenberger.com

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RE: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.5

[Devin Teske]

> -Original Message-
> From: Devin Teske [mailto:dte...@vicor.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 6:22 PM
> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
> Cc: '兰清'; 'Alexander Leidinger'; 'Dieter BSD'; Teske, Devin
> (devin.te...@fisglobal.com); Julian Elischer (jelisc...@fusionio.com); 'Warner
> Losh'
> Subject: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.5
> 
> Happy to bring to you version 1.5 of my loader_menu package. This version
> incorporates the suggestions first made by Lan Qing and then re-affirmed by
(in-
> order) Alexander Leidinger, Dieter BSD, and Julian Elischer (whom brings word
> from the devsummit as well as Warner Losh): you guys want to separate the boot
> "actions" from the boot "options", and now it's accomplished.
> 
> Here's how the re-arrangement looks for each of the different loader
> environments...

i386-compatible hardware with ACPI support:
http://twitpic.com/4wvls8
http://twitpic.com/4wvm73 (color)

i386-compatible hardware without ACPI support:
http://twitpic.com/4wvmod
http://twitpic.com/4wvn0f

non-i386 (such as IA64, PPC, etc.):
http://twitpic.com/4wvne3
http://twitpic.com/4wvod5 (color)

NOTE: Previous links were incorrect. Above are the correct links to the correct
images.
-- 
Devin

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[RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.5

[Devin Teske]

Happy to bring to you version 1.5 of my loader_menu package. This version
incorporates the suggestions first made by Lan Qing and then re-affirmed by
(in-order) Alexander Leidinger, Dieter BSD, and Julian Elischer (whom brings
word from the devsummit as well as Warner Losh): you guys want to separate the
boot "actions" from the boot "options", and now it's accomplished.

Here's how the re-arrangement looks for each of the different loader
environments...

i386-compatible hardware with ACPI support:
http://twitpic.com/4wvls8
http://twitpic.com/4wvn0f (color)

i386-compatible hardware without ACPI support:
http://twitpic.com/4wvmod
http://twitpic.com/4wvn0f (color)

non-i386 hardware (such as IA64, PPC, etc.):
http://twitpic.com/4wvne3
http://twitpic.com/4wvod5 (color)

Here's the links:

http://druidbsd.sourceforge.net/download/loader_menu-1.5.tgz
or
http://druidbsd.sourceforge.net/

Here's a diff of the changes:

diff -rNup loader_menu-1.4/+CONTENTS loader_menu-1.5/+CONTENTS
--- loader_menu-1.4/+CONTENTS   2011-05-05 00:47:31.0 -0700
+++ loader_menu-1.5/+CONTENTS   2011-05-12 16:07:11.0 -0700
@@ -1,5 +1,5 @@
 @comment PKG_FORMAT_REVISION:1.1
-@name loader_menu-1.4
+@name loader_menu-1.5
 @comment ORIGIN:sysutils/loader_menu
 @cwd /boot
 beastie.4th
@@ -17,9 +17,9 @@ loader.rc
 menu-commands.4th
 @comment MD5:0999bd50b8395098bd6bcf9165db4d7b
 menu.4th
-@comment MD5:26a61c0ea268334687a63e07b0d708d8
+@comment MD5:3b97638b4a5608fab425e2751d386c14
 menu.rc
-@comment MD5:dcf2993118b991f57b4ab0659d2712ae
+@comment MD5:f682160708bcf5a537421ab09ce51660
 shortcuts.4th
 @comment MD5:9a5ed52548bbbaf67ad613e37d0e4b58
 version.4th
@@ -30,7 +30,7 @@ version.4th
 @comment MD5:69903862d8df34df77522792172b0999
 @ignore
 +DESC
-@comment MD5:d18419e5babe54b7cc195da7f7f5ac86
+@comment MD5:597ef7a6779d9e083140eaa985fc1ee1
 @ignore
 +INSTALL
 @comment MD5:76c98eb5e084871d9fe5d4fa4511d8c5
diff -rNup loader_menu-1.4/+DESC loader_menu-1.5/+DESC
--- loader_menu-1.4/+DESC   2011-05-04 12:11:31.0 -0700
+++ loader_menu-1.5/+DESC   2011-05-12 13:50:40.0 -0700
@@ -91,6 +91,11 @@ loader_delay="N"
until booting the loaded kernel). During the autoboot sequence, any key
pressed except for ENTER will allow escaping to the loader prompt.
 
+loader_menu_title="..."
+
+   Overrides the default title ("Welcome to FreeBSD") displayed above the
+   dynamic menu.
+
 
 
 WWW: http://druidbsd.sourceforge.net/
diff -rNup loader_menu-1.4/menu.4th loader_menu-1.5/menu.4th
--- loader_menu-1.4/menu.4th2011-05-05 00:33:13.0 -0700
+++ loader_menu-1.5/menu.4th2011-05-12 16:07:06.0 -0700
@@ -75,7 +75,9 @@ variable menukey6
 variable menukey7
 variable menukey8
 variable menureboot
+variable menurebootadded
 variable menuacpi
+variable menuoptions
 
 \ Menu timer [count-down] variables
 variable menu_timeout_enabled \ timeout state (internal use only)
@@ -439,7 +441,10 @@ create init_text8 255 allot
 : menu-create ( -- )
 
\ Print the frame caption at (x,y)
-   11 9 at-xy ." FreeBSD Kernel Options"
+   s" loader_menu_title" getenv dup -1 = if
+   drop s" Welcome to FreeBSD"
+   then
+   24 over 2 / - 9 at-xy type 
 
\ Print our menu options with respective key/variable associations.
\ `printmenuitem' ends by adding the decimal ASCII value for the
@@ -478,8 +483,39 @@ create init_text8 255 allot
then
then
 
+   \ 
+   \ Initialize the menu_options visual separator.
+   \ 
+   0 menuoptions !
+   s" menu_options" getenv -1 <> if
+   c@ dup 48 > over 57 < and if ( '1' <= c1 <= '8' )
+   menuoptions !
+   else
+   drop
+   then
+   then
+
+   \ Initialize "Reboot" menu state variable (prevents double-entry)
+   false menurebootadded !
+
49 \ Iterator start (loop range 49 to 56; ASCII '1' to '8')
begin
+   \ If the "Options:" separator, print it.
+   dup menuoptions @ = if
+   \ Optionally add a reboot option to the menu
+   s" menu_reboot" getenv -1 <> if
+   drop
+   s" Reboot" printmenuitem menureboot !
+   true menurebootadded !
+   then
+
+   menuX @
+   menurow @ 2 + menurow !
+   menurow @ menuY @ +
+   at-xy
+   ." Options:"
+   then
+
\ If this is the ACPI menu option, act accordingly.
dup menuacpi @ = if
acpimenuitem ( -- C-Addr | -1 )
@@ -520,14 +556,16 @@ create init_text8 255 allot
drop \ iterator
 
\ Optionally add a reboot option to the menu
-   s" menu_reboot" getenv -1 <> if
-   drop   \ no need for th

Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Dieter BSD]

> There's really only room for one or two more menu items.

Perhaps some items could be moved to a 2nd level menu?

1) boot multiuser mode ( default )
2) boot single user mode
3) menu to set boot options
4) help

 Would be nice: a fix for having to lean on a key autorepeating
 for a couple seconds.
>>>
>>> Could you explain? I don't follow.
>>
>> On my Tyan Tomcat k8e 2865, just entering the number rarely if
>> ever works. I have to either repeatedly bang away at the key or
>> hold it down, letting the RS-232 terminal do the autorepeat thing,
>> while hoping that it notices before the timer runs out.
>
> Is that with the current code that's in CVS? I'd love for you to
> try my code on that hardware. One of the things that I worked on
> in the very beginning was the responsiveness.

That's with 6.x, 7,x and 8.x, currently running 8.2.  I haven't
looked to see if anything has changed in CVS since 8.2.  I'll
try your code, but I can't promise when.  I'm swamped at the
moment and windows when the machine is free keep getting smaller
and less frequent.
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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Devin Teske]

On May 3, 2011, at 9:06 PM, Jason Hellenthal wrote:

> 
> Devin,
> 
> 
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 08:45:14PM -0700, Devin Teske wrote:
>> 
>> On Apr 30, 2011, at 8:11 PM, Jason Hellenthal wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Devin,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:00:47PM -0700, Devin Teske wrote:
 
> Would be nice: "uname -v" of the kernel it will boot.
 
 That's a bit more technically challenging. I'll have another look at the
 FICL words available, but I don't recall if there was a way to crawl the
 object space of the items loaded with ``load'' (looking for the uname). I'm
 open to suggestions if you had an idea of how to do this in Forth -- else
 I'd think this would need to be a loader(8) modification.
>>> 
>>> How about forgetting a mention of unmae & ... instead look into if we
>>> can support some sort of bootcode versioning to be displayed on the
>>> screen. This would serve to be very helpful in the future when for say a
>>> new version of bootcode for ZFS has to be installed then it would be
>>> easy for announce@ to simply say "A new version of ZFS has been MFCd and
>>> requires boot version >= X. To find out your version please see the
>>> bottom right hand corner of your boot screen."
>>> 
>>> I would place a pretty good bet that loader(8) could be modified to
>>> export some sort of versioning of the bootcode to make this a easier
>>> stance for the user to gather information before a upgrade.
>> 
>> Piece of cake! If you give me a loader(8) that exports a "version" 
>> environment variable, I'll give the Forth functionality in mere seconds. 
>> It's already been developed (but was not packaged).
>> 
>> I have a module named "version.4th" which prints the value of the "version" 
>> environment variable at the bottom-right of the screen underneath the 
>> beastie logo.
>> 
>> Since you mention this, I'll add the code to the next package and if/when 
>> loader(8) ever exports a "version" environment variable, it will just 
>> magically appear. How's that sound?
>> 
> 
> Sounds perfect!

One minor adjustment... can we make that environment variable "loader_version" 
instead of "version"?

The code is already in for "loader_version". Whatever string you export into 
that environment variable will be displayed on-screen at bottom-right, 
right-justified.
-- 
Devin

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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Jason Hellenthal]

Devin,


On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 08:45:14PM -0700, Devin Teske wrote:
>
>On Apr 30, 2011, at 8:11 PM, Jason Hellenthal wrote:
>
>> 
>> Devin,
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:00:47PM -0700, Devin Teske wrote:
>>> 
 Would be nice: "uname -v" of the kernel it will boot.
>>> 
>>> That's a bit more technically challenging. I'll have another look at the
>>> FICL words available, but I don't recall if there was a way to crawl the
>>> object space of the items loaded with ``load'' (looking for the uname). I'm
>>> open to suggestions if you had an idea of how to do this in Forth -- else
>>> I'd think this would need to be a loader(8) modification.
>> 
>> How about forgetting a mention of unmae & ... instead look into if we
>> can support some sort of bootcode versioning to be displayed on the
>> screen. This would serve to be very helpful in the future when for say a
>> new version of bootcode for ZFS has to be installed then it would be
>> easy for announce@ to simply say "A new version of ZFS has been MFCd and
>> requires boot version >= X. To find out your version please see the
>> bottom right hand corner of your boot screen."
>> 
>> I would place a pretty good bet that loader(8) could be modified to
>> export some sort of versioning of the bootcode to make this a easier
>> stance for the user to gather information before a upgrade.
>
>Piece of cake! If you give me a loader(8) that exports a "version" environment 
>variable, I'll give the Forth functionality in mere seconds. It's already been 
>developed (but was not packaged).
>
>I have a module named "version.4th" which prints the value of the "version" 
>environment variable at the bottom-right of the screen underneath the beastie 
>logo.
>
>Since you mention this, I'll add the code to the next package and if/when 
>loader(8) ever exports a "version" environment variable, it will just 
>magically appear. How's that sound?
>

Sounds perfect!

-- 

 Regards, (jhell)
 Jason Hellenthal



pgpjXdkxfm4pB.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Devin Teske]

On Apr 30, 2011, at 8:11 PM, Jason Hellenthal wrote:

> 
> Devin,
> 
> 
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:00:47PM -0700, Devin Teske wrote:
>> 
>>> Would be nice: "uname -v" of the kernel it will boot.
>> 
>> That's a bit more technically challenging. I'll have another look at the
>> FICL words available, but I don't recall if there was a way to crawl the
>> object space of the items loaded with ``load'' (looking for the uname). I'm
>> open to suggestions if you had an idea of how to do this in Forth -- else
>> I'd think this would need to be a loader(8) modification.
> 
> How about forgetting a mention of unmae & ... instead look into if we
> can support some sort of bootcode versioning to be displayed on the
> screen. This would serve to be very helpful in the future when for say a
> new version of bootcode for ZFS has to be installed then it would be
> easy for announce@ to simply say "A new version of ZFS has been MFCd and
> requires boot version >= X. To find out your version please see the
> bottom right hand corner of your boot screen."
> 
> I would place a pretty good bet that loader(8) could be modified to
> export some sort of versioning of the bootcode to make this a easier
> stance for the user to gather information before a upgrade.

Piece of cake! If you give me a loader(8) that exports a "version" environment 
variable, I'll give the Forth functionality in mere seconds. It's already been 
developed (but was not packaged).

I have a module named "version.4th" which prints the value of the "version" 
environment variable at the bottom-right of the screen underneath the beastie 
logo.

Since you mention this, I'll add the code to the next package and if/when 
loader(8) ever exports a "version" environment variable, it will just magically 
appear. How's that sound?


> 
> -- 
> 
> Regards, (jhell)
> Jason Hellenthal
> 

-- 
Cheers,
Devin Teske


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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Devin Teske]

On Apr 30, 2011, at 6:10 PM, Dieter BSD wrote:

>> Already on the to-do list is to support ``loader_logo=...'' in
>> /boot/loader.conf
> 
> Including an option for no logo? (For consoles that are slow and/or
> small, and for people that just don't like the logos.)

The current behavior -- with what's in CVS today -- is to draw a logo for all 
values of "loader_logo" except for "none".

My menu differs slightly, improving functionality by defaulting to not draw any 
logo for values we don't understand. Therefore "none" would have the desired 
effect (but so will "NO", "blank", "johnnycat", "billjoy", or even "" -- all 
produce a menu with no logo). NOTE: If NULL, we don't display the logo, however 
if unset, we'll default to displaying the chosen/sensible default (going for 
`orbbw' to comply with the aforementioned compatibility decrees -- of which I 
fully agree with). This is to facilitate the loader.conf(5) override ability.

Currently, you'd make the change by altering the ``set logo="orb"'' line in 
/etc/menu.rc (line 10). In the next release, I plan to change the environment 
variable from "logo" to "loader_logo" for backward compatibility (allowing 
loader.conf(5) override as previously mentioned).


> 
>>> Putting brackets around letters (and numbers) sounds good.
>>> If there is room, perhaps add a message explaining that
>>> the user should enter one of the choices in brackets.
>> 
>> I think I'm going to have to play with this and see what we come up with. I
>> don't want to make it too "busy" if you know what I mean. That's with
>> respect to the brackets. As for adding a messages... things are a bit tight
>> and again, I'm afraid of making it too cluttered. I'll post some screenshots
>> of some mock-ups tomorrow, incorporating the various requests.
>> 
>>> A help option would be useful, giving a reminder of what
>>> things like ACPI and APIC stand for, what "safe" mode does, etc.
>> 
>> This is not altogether infeasible. Since this menu (unlike the current one)
>> has the ability to be wiped from screen and then recalled completely in the
>> original state is was left in ... implementing an F1 feature that reads text
>> from a file would be very do-able.
> 
> If there is a help option that the user can figure out how to execute,
> the explaination about brackets (if you go that route), entering numbers,
> letters, and such could be included in the help screen(s) instead of the
> main menu page.

One of the decrees was that we shouldn't assume that there are function keys. I 
think that's a fair decree, so that puts me in a quandry with the "Press F1 for 
Help" model of presentation. Although convenient programmatically, it could 
potentially leave users without function-keys without an ability to read the 
carefully prepared messages awaiting their keypress.

There's really only room for one or two more menu items. Perhaps we could 
introduce a new menuitem after the reboot item. A menuitem whose number is 
perhaps not a number, but instead the question-mark. The text for which could 
be "[H]elp" (keeping to the recent bracketed concept -- which could 
conceptually switch to underline if loader_color is set).


> 
>>> Would be nice: a fix for having to lean on a key autorepeating
>>> for a couple seconds.
>> 
>> Could you explain? I don't follow.
> 
> On my Tyan Tomcat k8e 2865, just entering the number rarely if
> ever works. I have to either repeatedly bang away at the key or
> hold it down, letting the RS-232 terminal do the autorepeat thing,
> while hoping that it notices before the timer runs out.

Is that with the current code that's in CVS? I'd love for you to try my code on 
that hardware. One of the things that I worked on in the very beginning was the 
responsiveness.
-- 
Cheers,
Devin Teske


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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Jason Hellenthal]

Devin,


On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 04:00:47PM -0700, Devin Teske wrote:
>
>> Would be nice: "uname -v" of the kernel it will boot.
>
>That's a bit more technically challenging. I'll have another look at the
>FICL words available, but I don't recall if there was a way to crawl the
>object space of the items loaded with ``load'' (looking for the uname). I'm
>open to suggestions if you had an idea of how to do this in Forth -- else
>I'd think this would need to be a loader(8) modification.

How about forgetting a mention of unmae & ... instead look into if we
can support some sort of bootcode versioning to be displayed on the
screen. This would serve to be very helpful in the future when for say a
new version of bootcode for ZFS has to be installed then it would be
easy for announce@ to simply say "A new version of ZFS has been MFCd and
requires boot version >= X. To find out your version please see the
bottom right hand corner of your boot screen."

I would place a pretty good bet that loader(8) could be modified to
export some sort of versioning of the bootcode to make this a easier
stance for the user to gather information before a upgrade.

-- 

 Regards, (jhell)
 Jason Hellenthal



pgpSxMzRr5ZWy.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Dieter BSD]

> Already on the to-do list is to support ``loader_logo=...'' in
> /boot/loader.conf

Including an option for no logo? (For consoles that are slow and/or
small, and for people that just don't like the logos.)

>> Putting brackets around letters (and numbers) sounds good.
>> If there is room, perhaps add a message explaining that
>> the user should enter one of the choices in brackets.
>
> I think I'm going to have to play with this and see what we come up with. I
> don't want to make it too "busy" if you know what I mean. That's with
> respect to the brackets. As for adding a messages... things are a bit tight
> and again, I'm afraid of making it too cluttered. I'll post some screenshots
> of some mock-ups tomorrow, incorporating the various requests.
>
>> A help option would be useful, giving a reminder of what
>> things like ACPI and APIC stand for, what "safe" mode does, etc.
>
> This is not altogether infeasible. Since this menu (unlike the current one)
> has the ability to be wiped from screen and then recalled completely in the
> original state is was left in ... implementing an F1 feature that reads text
> from a file would be very do-able.

If there is a help option that the user can figure out how to execute,
the explaination about brackets (if you go that route), entering numbers,
letters, and such could be included in the help screen(s) instead of the
main menu page.

>> Would be nice: a fix for having to lean on a key autorepeating
>> for a couple seconds.
>
> Could you explain? I don't follow.

On my Tyan Tomcat k8e 2865, just entering the number rarely if
ever works. I have to either repeatedly bang away at the key or
hold it down, letting the RS-232 terminal do the autorepeat thing,
while hoping that it notices before the timer runs out.
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RE: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Devin Teske]

> -Original Message-
> From: owner-freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> hack...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Dieter BSD
> Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 12:28 PM
> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu
> 
> [ attempt #2 - grumble - sorry about the blank message, hope it
> works this time - grumble- ]
> 
> > I hope that works for serial console.  VT100 may be a reasonable
> > default in that case, but it would be good to make sure that menu
> > works even on a dumb terminal. Perhaps we should put 'key' letter
> > in brackets then?
> 
> This needs to work, correctly, everywhere.  This needs to be easy to
> understand by a stressed out user whose machine is having problems.
> 
> Therefore:
> 
> Thou shalt not assume graphics.
> Thou shalt not assume color.
> Thou shalt not assume VT100 or any specific terminal.
> Thou shalt not assume ability to display bold.
> Thou shalt not assume ability to underline text.
> Thou shalt not assume availability of multiple fonts.
> Thou shalt not assume more than 24x80 chars.
> Thou shalt not assume scrollback.
> Thou shalt not assume fancy cursor movements.
> Thou shalt not assume presence of function keys.
> Thou shalt not assume presence of arrow keys.
> Thou shalt not assume a fast interface.
> Thou shalt not assume the three-finger-salute works.
> 

I agree with all those decrees.

I'll make the next version will meet all those requirements in its "out of
the box" configuration.

If users want to make it colorized, I'll provide a knob that can be added to
loader.conf(5) (how about ``loader_color=1'' ??).

Already on the to-do list is to support ``loader_logo=...'' in
/boot/loader.conf


> Putting brackets around letters (and numbers) sounds good.
> If there is room, perhaps add a message explaining that
> the user should enter one of the choices in brackets.
> 

I think I'm going to have to play with this and see what we come up with. I
don't want to make it too "busy" if you know what I mean. That's with
respect to the brackets. As for adding a messages... things are a bit tight
and again, I'm afraid of making it too cluttered. I'll post some screenshots
of some mock-ups tomorrow, incorporating the various requests.


> A help option would be useful, giving a reminder of what
> things like ACPI and APIC stand for, what "safe" mode does, etc.
> 

This is not altogether infeasible. Since this menu (unlike the current one)
has the ability to be wiped from screen and then recalled completely in the
original state is was left in ... implementing an F1 feature that reads text
from a file would be very do-able.

I was at one time experimenting with reading a "version.inf" file from disk
to be displayed at the bottom-right of the screen (under beastie logo) ... a
way of indicating the version of either loader, OS, both, or more (could be
auto-generated as part of release(7) for each/every release).


> Would be nice: "uname -v" of the kernel it will boot.
> 

That's a bit more technically challenging. I'll have another look at the
FICL words available, but I don't recall if there was a way to crawl the
object space of the items loaded with ``load'' (looking for the uname). I'm
open to suggestions if you had an idea of how to do this in Forth -- else
I'd think this would need to be a loader(8) modification.

> Would be nice: a user friendly way to boot from a different
> disk/partition/kernel.  Without the user having to know the
> mapping between what the firmware calls disks and what FreeBSD
> calls disks.  And without writing anything to disk.
> 

That's also a bit technically challenging in Forth, I think. Open to
suggestions, but again would likely be best implemented as a change to
loader(8), no?


> Would be nice: a fix for having to lean on a key autorepeating
> for a couple seconds.
> 

Could you explain? I don't follow.
-- 
Devin


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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Dieter BSD]

[ attempt #2 - grumble - sorry about the blank message, hope it
works this time - grumble- ]

> I hope that works for serial console.  VT100 may be a reasonable
> default in that case, but it would be good to make sure that menu
> works even on a dumb terminal. Perhaps we should put 'key' letter
> in brackets then?

This needs to work, correctly, everywhere.  This needs to be easy to
understand by a stressed out user whose machine is having problems.

Therefore:

Thou shalt not assume graphics.
Thou shalt not assume color.
Thou shalt not assume VT100 or any specific terminal.
Thou shalt not assume ability to display bold.
Thou shalt not assume ability to underline text.
Thou shalt not assume availability of multiple fonts.
Thou shalt not assume more than 24x80 chars.
Thou shalt not assume scrollback.
Thou shalt not assume fancy cursor movements.
Thou shalt not assume presence of function keys.
Thou shalt not assume presence of arrow keys.
Thou shalt not assume a fast interface.
Thou shalt not assume the three-finger-salute works.

Putting brackets around letters (and numbers) sounds good.
If there is room, perhaps add a message explaining that
the user should enter one of the choices in brackets.

A help option would be useful, giving a reminder of what
things like ACPI and APIC stand for, what "safe" mode does, etc.

Would be nice: "uname -v" of the kernel it will boot.

Would be nice: a user friendly way to boot from a different
disk/partition/kernel.  Without the user having to know the
mapping between what the firmware calls disks and what FreeBSD
calls disks.  And without writing anything to disk.

Would be nice: a fix for having to lean on a key autorepeating
for a couple seconds.

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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Dieter BSD]

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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Alexander Leidinger]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 16:55:12 -0700 "Devin Teske" 
wrote:

> > -Original Message-
> > From: Alexander Leidinger [mailto:alexan...@leidinger.net]
> > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 1:34 PM
> > To: Devin Teske
> > Cc: 'Mike Meyer'; 'FreeBSD Hackers'
> > Subject: Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu
> > 
> > On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 12:02:03 -0700 "Devin Teske" 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > I was thinking that what we ought to do is support *both* numbers
> > > *and* letters.
> > 
> > Sounds good to me.
> > 
> > > I envision the menuitem numbers remaining unchanged (1-7),
> > > allowing those familiar with the numbers to use them.
> > >
> > > However, as for the letters, I'm thinking that we *BOLD* the
> > > mnemonic in the menuitem. For example (showing bolded items
> > > between asterisks):
> > >
> > > 1. Boot *[ENTER]*
> > > 2. *A*CPI Support: Enabled
> > > 3. Boot Safe Mode: NO
> > > 4. Boot *S*ingle User: NO
> > > 5. Boot *V*erbose: NO
> > > 6. *Esc*ape to loader prompt
> > > 7. *R*eboot
> > >
> > > This should indicate to the user, for example if they see that
> > > the "V" in "Verbose" is bolded, that they can press that key to
> > > activate that menuitem.
> > 
> 
> Your below points are all valid arguments. However, I think they are
> a bit reaching.
> 
> The types of people that know what it means to boot into Single-User
> and/or Verbose mode would not be prone to thinking in those ways.

Maybe not single user, but maybe verbose.

For me the first question is not how to improve this, my first question
is if we need to improve this.

> I'm still leaning toward just making the "V" in "Verbose" and "S" in
> "Single User" bolded.

Your initial proposal about the characters looked fine for me. Only
making those two in bold looks looks like a step backwards to me.

Bye,
Alexander.

-- 
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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Artem Belevich]

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Doug Barton  wrote:
> On 04/29/2011 20:34, Warren Block wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2011, Devin Teske wrote:
>>
>>> I'm still leaning toward just making the "V" in "Verbose" and "S" in
>>> "Single
>>> User" bolded.
>>
>> Why not just underline hotkey characters? That's already a well-known
>> standard in lots of places.
>
> Agreed, that's a much more standard UI.

I hope that works for serial console.  VT100 may be a reasonable
default in that case, but it would be good to make sure that menu
works even on a dumb terminal. Perhaps we should put 'key' letter in
brackets then?

--Artem
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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Doug Barton]

On 04/29/2011 20:34, Warren Block wrote:

On Fri, 29 Apr 2011, Devin Teske wrote:


I'm still leaning toward just making the "V" in "Verbose" and "S" in
"Single
User" bolded.


Why not just underline hotkey characters? That's already a well-known
standard in lots of places.


Agreed, that's a much more standard UI.

--

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RE: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Warren Block]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2011, Devin Teske wrote:


I'm still leaning toward just making the "V" in "Verbose" and "S" in "Single
User" bolded.


Why not just underline hotkey characters?  That's already a well-known 
standard in lots of places.

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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Alexander Leidinger]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 12:02:03 -0700 "Devin Teske" 
wrote:

> I was thinking that what we ought to do is support *both* numbers
> *and* letters.

Sounds good to me.

> I envision the menuitem numbers remaining unchanged (1-7), allowing
> those familiar with the numbers to use them.
> 
> However, as for the letters, I'm thinking that we *BOLD* the mnemonic
> in the menuitem. For example (showing bolded items between asterisks):
> 
> 1. Boot *[ENTER]*
> 2. *A*CPI Support: Enabled
> 3. Boot Safe Mode: NO
> 4. Boot *S*ingle User: NO
> 5. Boot *V*erbose: NO
> 6. *Esc*ape to loader prompt
> 7. *R*eboot
> 
> This should indicate to the user, for example if they see that the
> "V" in "Verbose" is bolded, that they can press that key to activate
> that menuitem.

Presented like this a naive first interpretion could be that the
letters have to be entered as upper-case. I do not think someone wants
to press shift there...

Having the characters in bold but the numbers not could also let
someone think that only the characters matter.

Having a text which tells that the numbers and lower-case characters
work for chosing something, may be a solution here. Another solution is
maybe
 1/[ENTER]. Boot
 2/a. ACPI Support...
 ...
but I have to admit that the second solution is ugly.
A third solution could be to have the numbers and the characters in
bold.

Bye,
Alexander.

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RE: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Devin Teske]

> -Original Message-
> From: Olivier SMEDTS [mailto:oliv...@gid0.org]
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 4:09 PM
> To: Devin Teske
> Cc: Freddie Cash; FreeBSD Hackers
> Subject: Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu
> 
> Le 29 avr. 2011 à 21:17, Devin Teske  a écrit :
> 
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Freddie Cash [mailto:fjwc...@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 11:20 AM
> >> To: Devin Teske
> >> Cc: FreeBSD Hackers
> >> Subject: Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu
> >>
> >> Very nice and functional, without adding a lot of extra verbosity or
> >> steps.  I really appreciated the clean install via binary package.
> >> Well done.
> >>
> >> Only question I have is whether it's possible to use the Beastie
> >> ASCII image instead of the pointy-eared blob?  The beastie.4th file
> >> is still present under /boot, but I don't know how to hook it into the new
> menu.
> >
> > Glad you asked. This couldn't be easier.
> >
> > Open up `/boot/menu.rc' and look for the following lines (LINE 9-10):
> >
> >\ Customizations
> >set logo="orb"
> >
> > Feel free to play with any of the following drop-in replacements:
> >
> >set logo="beastie"
> >set logo="beastiebw"
> >set logo="fbsdbw"
> >set logo="orb"
> >set logo="orbbw"
> 
> Would it be possible to support the curent loader settings present in
> /boot/loader.conf ? I've got something like :
> loader_logo="beastie"
> autoboot_delay="0"
> 

Yeah, that's definitely possible. The new code already supports
/boot/loader.conf, however I don't support loader_logo in that way (you'd have
to use "logo=" instead of "loader_logo=" and you'd have to remove the "set
logo=" line from /boot/menu.rc).

I'll have to make the following modifications in the next version so that you
can use loader_logo from /boot/loader.conf:

1. Change the default logo in /boot/beastie.4th from "beastie" to "orb"
2. Change /boot/menu.rc to remove the line: set logo="orb"
3. Change /boot/beastie.4th to read the "loader_logo" environment variable
instead of "logo"


> And while the pre-menu delay of 2 seconds is great, is it possible to turn it
off or
> adjust it ?
>

Right now, if you want to disable the 2 second delay, open up /boot/loader.rc
and change the following line:

set dc_seconds=2

to:

set dc_seconds=0

In the next release, I'll rewrite it so that you add something to
/boot/loader.conf to disable the delay.
-- 
Devin


> Thanks !
> 
> > Simply deleting the line or comment it out (by adding "\ " --
backslash-space --
> to the beginning of the line) is equivalent to setting logo to "beastie".
Here's a
> short explanation of each value:
> >
> >NAMEDESCRIPTION
> >beastieColor ``Helper Daemon'' mascot (19 rows x 34 columns)
> >beastiebwB/W ``Helper Daemon'' mascot (19 rows x 34 columns)
> >fbsdbw"FreeBSD" logo in B/W (13 rows x 21 columns)
> >orbColor ``Orb'' mascot (15 rows x 30 columns)
> >orbbwB/W ``Orb'' mascot (15 rows x 30 columns)
> >
> > I'm not sure what you meant by "Beastie ASCII" image, but I think you're
either
> looking for "beastie" or "fbsdbw".
> >
> > You should have to, but if you need to, you can add:
> >
> >set logoX=X
> >set logoY=Y
> >
> > to force the row/column placement of beastie.
> > --
> > Devin
> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Freddie Cash
> >> fjwc...@gmail.com
> >
> > _
> >
> > The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or
confidential. If
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RE: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Devin Teske]

> -Original Message-
> From: Alexander Leidinger [mailto:alexan...@leidinger.net]
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 1:34 PM
> To: Devin Teske
> Cc: 'Mike Meyer'; 'FreeBSD Hackers'
> Subject: Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu
> 
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 12:02:03 -0700 "Devin Teske" 
> wrote:
> 
> > I was thinking that what we ought to do is support *both* numbers
> > *and* letters.
> 
> Sounds good to me.
> 
> > I envision the menuitem numbers remaining unchanged (1-7), allowing
> > those familiar with the numbers to use them.
> >
> > However, as for the letters, I'm thinking that we *BOLD* the mnemonic
> > in the menuitem. For example (showing bolded items between asterisks):
> >
> > 1. Boot *[ENTER]*
> > 2. *A*CPI Support: Enabled
> > 3. Boot Safe Mode: NO
> > 4. Boot *S*ingle User: NO
> > 5. Boot *V*erbose: NO
> > 6. *Esc*ape to loader prompt
> > 7. *R*eboot
> >
> > This should indicate to the user, for example if they see that the "V"
> > in "Verbose" is bolded, that they can press that key to activate that
> > menuitem.
> 

Your below points are all valid arguments. However, I think they are a bit
reaching.

The types of people that know what it means to boot into Single-User and/or
Verbose mode would not be prone to thinking in those ways. And, even if they
were, let's look at the consequences for each:

> Presented like this a naive first interpretion could be that the letters have
to be
> entered as upper-case. I do not think someone wants to press shift there...
>

Scenario:

Naïve User presses Shift-V. Nothing happens. They then press "v" ... the menu
toggles to "YES". They press ENTER. Success -- the naïve user has managed to
boot with the desired options.


> Having the characters in bold but the numbers not could also let someone think
> that only the characters matter.
> 

Scenario:

Naïve user thinks that only the letters matter, and the only bold items on the
menu are "[ENTER]", "S", and "V". Naïve user is left wondering how to activate
menuitems 2, 3, 6, and 7 for which there are no bolded letters. Naïve user never
figures out that the numbers are usable and eventually presses ENTER. The
machine boots.

Ok... you got me on this one ... this hypothetical [extremely] naïve user may
not figure out how to use options 2, 3, 6, and 7, and thus cannot disable ACPI,
cannot boot in Safe Mode (disabling both ACPI and APIC, etc.), nor escape to the
loader prompt, nor reboot (assuming they don't know how the three-finger-solute
or where the power button is).

My concession to this user would be to bold the numbers to the left of each
menuitem. The user would have to be beyond naïveté if they couldn't figure it
out with bold numbers, IMHO.


> Having a text which tells that the numbers and lower-case characters work for
> chosing something, may be a solution here. Another solution is maybe
> 1/[ENTER]. Boot  2/a. ACPI Support...
>  ...
> but I have to admit that the second solution is ugly.
> A third solution could be to have the numbers and the characters in bold.
> 

Yeah, that's no good. Too ugly.

I'm still leaning toward just making the "V" in "Verbose" and "S" in "Single
User" bolded.
-- 
Devin


> Bye,
> Alexander.
> 
> --
> http://www.Leidinger.netAlexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID = B0063FE7
> http://www.FreeBSD.org   netchild @ FreeBSD.org  : PGP ID = 72077137

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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Olivier SMEDTS]

Le 29 avr. 2011 à 21:17, Devin Teske  a écrit :

>> -Original Message-
>> From: Freddie Cash [mailto:fjwc...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 11:20 AM
>> To: Devin Teske
>> Cc: FreeBSD Hackers
>> Subject: Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu
>>
>> Very nice and functional, without adding a lot of extra verbosity or steps.  
>> I really
>> appreciated the clean install via binary package.
>> Well done.
>>
>> Only question I have is whether it's possible to use the Beastie ASCII image
>> instead of the pointy-eared blob?  The beastie.4th file is still present 
>> under /boot,
>> but I don't know how to hook it into the new menu.
>
> Glad you asked. This couldn't be easier.
>
> Open up `/boot/menu.rc' and look for the following lines (LINE 9-10):
>
>\ Customizations
>set logo="orb"
>
> Feel free to play with any of the following drop-in replacements:
>
>set logo="beastie"
>set logo="beastiebw"
>set logo="fbsdbw"
>set logo="orb"
>set logo="orbbw"

Would it be possible to support the curent loader settings present in
/boot/loader.conf ? I've got something like :
loader_logo="beastie"
autoboot_delay="0"

And while the pre-menu delay of 2 seconds is great, is it possible to
turn it off or adjust it ?

Thanks !

> Simply deleting the line or comment it out (by adding "\ " -- backslash-space 
> -- to the beginning of the line) is equivalent to setting logo to "beastie". 
> Here's a short explanation of each value:
>
>NAMEDESCRIPTION
>beastieColor ``Helper Daemon'' mascot (19 rows x 34 columns)
>beastiebwB/W ``Helper Daemon'' mascot (19 rows x 34 columns)
>fbsdbw"FreeBSD" logo in B/W (13 rows x 21 columns)
>orbColor ``Orb'' mascot (15 rows x 30 columns)
>orbbwB/W ``Orb'' mascot (15 rows x 30 columns)
>
> I'm not sure what you meant by "Beastie ASCII" image, but I think you're 
> either looking for "beastie" or "fbsdbw".
>
> You should have to, but if you need to, you can add:
>
>set logoX=X
>set logoY=Y
>
> to force the row/column placement of beastie.
> --
> Devin
>
>>
>> --
>> Freddie Cash
>> fjwc...@gmail.com
>
> _
>
> The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. 
> If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all 
> copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; 
> and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that 
> any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by 
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RE: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Devin Teske]

> -Original Message-
> From: Mike Meyer [mailto:m...@mired.org]
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 12:24 PM
> To: Devin Teske
> Cc: 'FreeBSD Hackers'
> Subject: Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu
> 
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 12:02:03 -0700
> "Devin Teske"  wrote:
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Mike Meyer [mailto:m...@mired.org] I'd like to revisit the
> > > numbers vs. letters for menu options. IIRC (and I may
> > not),
> > > an earlier version used letters for the menu options, and people
> > > objected to
> > that
> > > change.
> >
> > Looking at the CVS history of the Forth code that renders the menu,
> > I'm
> > noticing:
> >
> > If there was an earlier version of the menu that used letters, I'm not
> > seeing it in CVS.
> 
> I was referring to your code, not the historical FreeBSD code. Didn't you
originally
> propose using letters, not numbers, to toggle the boot options? If not, then
> possibly I'm remembering another proposal.

You're recalling a response to the thread that I started on March 28th, 2011
(last month):
THREAD-HEAD:
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2011-March/034824.html

The "letters not numbers" post that you're recalling was by Paul S. (below):
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2011-March/034830.html

Although Paul makes a point that the letters would be helpful, his complaint
about the numbers being changed is a red-herring (he saw the unreleased mock-up
image of my boot-loader -- in the thread-head URL above -- presenting different
numbers and complained that if the numbers change that sysadmins would be
confused). However, the reality is that [a] the final release indeed matches the
numbers with the existing boot loader and [b] the numbers have not changed in 7
years).

Paul, ... supporting evidence to show that the numbers (1-7) have never changed
since their initial commit to CVS on May 30th, 2003 (see the "beastie-menu"
forth word in version 1.1 of beastie.4th circa RELENG_5_0):
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/sys/boot/forth/beastie.4th

The case is merely that Paul would like to see this additional feature added
(letters as mnemonics). I couldn't find any claims that any previous version
(either of my code or official FreeBSD code) ever supported it in the past.

So, I think that the grand-total comes to 5 people now that have requested
hot-keys for the single-user and verbose menu items:

Paul S. (msg #034830)
Zhihao Y. (msg #034831)
Damien F. (msg #034841)
Yourself (Mike M.) (msg #035192 & msg #035197)
and Myself (Devin T. msg #035195)

Let's see if we can't get that list a little higher.

Keep in-mind, the proposal (at least for right now) is to have me extend my code
to bold the "S" in "Single User", bold the "V" in "Verbose", and accept the S/V
key as toggles for these features, all the while maintaining the current number
scheme.

NOTE: I'm going to wait a couple weeks before starting on this, as I've
currently got a couple of other companies evaluating the boot loader in its
current form and would like their feedback before moving forward on the next
revision.

> 
> > > In particular, there was a study done around '80 (I tried to find it
> > > but
> > couldn't; I
> > > know of someone who can probably provide a reference if someone
> > > really wants
> > > it) that showed that menu selection with letters assigned
> > > mnemonically are easiest for users to memorize.
> >
> > I can believe that quite easily. However, currently the boot menu does
> > not support such letters. I think this new loader menu is the perfect
> > place to implement them.
> 
> This seemed like a good time to change it if we were going to to me.

I couldn't agree more.
-- 
Devin


> 
> > On another note, I have one other change that I'd like to get in... I
> > noticed that (in CVS) the menu currently blanks-out option #2 if
> > booting on a system where ACPI is disabled or unavailable. In my boot
> > loader, I'd like to display "ACPI Support: N/A" rather than simply blanking
out
> the menu item.
> 
> That would certainly make the numbers make more sense.
> 
>  Thanks,
>   --
> Mike Meyer 
>   http://www.mired.org/consulting.html
> Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information.
> 
> O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org

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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Mike Meyer]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 12:02:03 -0700
"Devin Teske"  wrote:
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mike Meyer [mailto:m...@mired.org]
> > I'd like to revisit the numbers vs. letters for menu options. IIRC (and I 
> > may
> not),
> > an earlier version used letters for the menu options, and people objected to
> that
> > change.
> 
> Looking at the CVS history of the Forth code that renders the menu, I'm
> noticing:
> 
> If there was an earlier version of the menu that used letters, I'm not seeing 
> it
> in CVS.

I was referring to your code, not the historical FreeBSD code. Didn't
you originally propose using letters, not numbers, to toggle the boot
options? If not, then possibly I'm remembering another proposal.

> > In particular, there was a study done around '80 (I tried to find it but
> couldn't; I
> > know of someone who can probably provide a reference if someone really wants
> > it) that showed that menu selection with letters assigned mnemonically are
> > easiest for users to memorize.
> 
> I can believe that quite easily. However, currently the boot menu does not
> support such letters. I think this new loader menu is the perfect place to
> implement them.

This seemed like a good time to change it if we were going to to me.

> On another note, I have one other change that I'd like to get in... I noticed
> that (in CVS) the menu currently blanks-out option #2 if booting on a system
> where ACPI is disabled or unavailable. In my boot loader, I'd like to display
> "ACPI Support: N/A" rather than simply blanking out the menu item.

That would certainly make the numbers make more sense.

 Thanks,
  http://www.mired.org/consulting.html
Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information.

O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
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RE: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Devin Teske]

> -Original Message-
> From: Freddie Cash [mailto:fjwc...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 11:20 AM
> To: Devin Teske
> Cc: FreeBSD Hackers
> Subject: Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu
> 
> Very nice and functional, without adding a lot of extra verbosity or steps.  
> I really
> appreciated the clean install via binary package.
> Well done.
> 
> Only question I have is whether it's possible to use the Beastie ASCII image
> instead of the pointy-eared blob?  The beastie.4th file is still present 
> under /boot,
> but I don't know how to hook it into the new menu.

Glad you asked. This couldn't be easier.

Open up `/boot/menu.rc' and look for the following lines (LINE 9-10):

\ Customizations
set logo="orb"

Feel free to play with any of the following drop-in replacements:

set logo="beastie"
set logo="beastiebw"
set logo="fbsdbw"
set logo="orb"
set logo="orbbw"

Simply deleting the line or comment it out (by adding "\ " -- backslash-space 
-- to the beginning of the line) is equivalent to setting logo to "beastie". 
Here's a short explanation of each value:

NAMEDESCRIPTION
beastie Color ``Helper Daemon'' mascot (19 rows x 34 columns)
beastiebw   B/W ``Helper Daemon'' mascot (19 rows x 34 columns)
fbsdbw  "FreeBSD" logo in B/W (13 rows x 21 columns)
orb Color ``Orb'' mascot (15 rows x 30 columns)
orbbw   B/W ``Orb'' mascot (15 rows x 30 columns)

I'm not sure what you meant by "Beastie ASCII" image, but I think you're either 
looking for "beastie" or "fbsdbw".

You should have to, but if you need to, you can add:

set logoX=X
set logoY=Y

to force the row/column placement of beastie.
-- 
Devin

> 
> --
> Freddie Cash
> fjwc...@gmail.com

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RE: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Devin Teske]

> -Original Message-
> From: Mike Meyer [mailto:m...@mired.org]
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 10:08 AM
> To: Devin Teske
> Cc: FreeBSD Hackers
> Subject: Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu
> 
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 18:53:11 -0700
> Devin Teske  wrote:
> 
> > Hello fellow hackers,
> >
> > I'd love to finally release (under the BSD license) my code for the revamped
> FreeBSD boot loader menu.
> >
> > Here's a detailed discussion of the release complete with pictures:
> > http://devinteske.com/new-freebsd-boot-loader-menu
> 
> Got it, nice simple install (as promised), and it worked like a charm.
> 
> I'd like to revisit the numbers vs. letters for menu options. IIRC (and I may
not),
> an earlier version used letters for the menu options, and people objected to
that
> change.

Looking at the CVS history of the Forth code that renders the menu, I'm
noticing:

a. FreeBSD-4.x and earlier didn't have a menu (after loading the kernel, the
loader simply drops to autoboot).

b. FreeBSD-5.x introduced the menu that is currently in-use today (rendered by
`beastie.4th').

c. The current menu uses numbers, not letters.

If there was an earlier version of the menu that used letters, I'm not seeing it
in CVS.


> 
> Since we're changing the menus, we ought to look at which is best for the end
> user, as opposed to just doing what feels comfortable to us as old users.
> 

I was thinking that what we ought to do is support *both* numbers *and* letters.

I envision the menuitem numbers remaining unchanged (1-7), allowing those
familiar with the numbers to use them.

However, as for the letters, I'm thinking that we *BOLD* the mnemonic in the
menuitem. For example (showing bolded items between asterisks):

1. Boot *[ENTER]*
2. *A*CPI Support: Enabled
3. Boot Safe Mode: NO
4. Boot *S*ingle User: NO
5. Boot *V*erbose: NO
6. *Esc*ape to loader prompt
7. *R*eboot

This should indicate to the user, for example if they see that the "V" in
"Verbose" is bolded, that they can press that key to activate that menuitem.

In addition, represented above, the only non-numeric keys that do anything would
be:

ENTER to boot
A to toggle ACPI support
S to toggle Single User mode
V to toggle Verbose boot
Esc to escape to the loader prompt
R to reboot

Looking at a standard QWERTY keyboard, A and S are close to each other, but
since the new menu is stateful (meaning that pressing the key merely changes the
state of that option) rather than stateless (wherein pressing a key would
immediately boot with that option), if you jam the wrong key, no worries (just
jam it again to return it to its pre-toggled state).

I'm open to discussion as to what the keys should be, though I'm pretty hard-set
on "S" for single-user, and "V" for verbose (the others, besides ENTER-to-boot,
are open for debate -- personally I think I'd be happy with nothing more than
just ENTER, "S" and "V" and no others).


> In particular, there was a study done around '80 (I tried to find it but
couldn't; I
> know of someone who can probably provide a reference if someone really wants
> it) that showed that menu selection with letters assigned mnemonically are
> easiest for users to memorize.

I can believe that quite easily. However, currently the boot menu does not
support such letters. I think this new loader menu is the perfect place to
implement them.

On another note, I have one other change that I'd like to get in... I noticed
that (in CVS) the menu currently blanks-out option #2 if booting on a system
where ACPI is disabled or unavailable. In my boot loader, I'd like to display
"ACPI Support: N/A" rather than simply blanking out the menu item.
-- 
Devin


> 
> Not really a major issue - you shouldn't be booting FreeBSD systems all that
> often, so it's not something I care very much about. However, I figure someone
> ought to at least speak up for using system that's better for new users rather
> than quietly doing it the old way since we're making a change anyway.
> 
> --
> Mike Meyer 
>   http://www.mired.org/consulting.html
> Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information.
> 
> O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org

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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Freddie Cash]

Very nice and functional, without adding a lot of extra verbosity or
steps.  I really appreciated the clean install via binary package.
Well done.

Only question I have is whether it's possible to use the Beastie ASCII
image instead of the pointy-eared blob?  The beastie.4th file is still
present under /boot, but I don't know how to hook it into the new
menu.

-- 
Freddie Cash
fjwc...@gmail.com
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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Warner Losh]

Why not both?



Warner

On Apr 29, 2011, at 11:08 AM, Mike Meyer wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 18:53:11 -0700
> Devin Teske  wrote:
> 
>> Hello fellow hackers,
>> 
>> I'd love to finally release (under the BSD license) my code for the revamped 
>> FreeBSD boot loader menu.
>> 
>> Here's a detailed discussion of the release complete with pictures:
>> http://devinteske.com/new-freebsd-boot-loader-menu
> 
> Got it, nice simple install (as promised), and it worked like a charm.
> 
> I'd like to revisit the numbers vs. letters for menu options. IIRC
> (and I may not), an earlier version used letters for the menu options,
> and people objected to that change.
> 
> Since we're changing the menus, we ought to look at which is best for
> the end user, as opposed to just doing what feels comfortable to us as
> old users.
> 
> In particular, there was a study done around '80 (I tried to find it
> but couldn't; I know of someone who can probably provide a reference
> if someone really wants it) that showed that menu selection with
> letters assigned mnemonically are easiest for users to memorize.
> 
> Not really a major issue - you shouldn't be booting FreeBSD systems
> all that often, so it's not something I care very much about. However,
> I figure someone ought to at least speak up for using system that's
> better for new users rather than quietly doing it the old way since
> we're making a change anyway.
> 
>-- 
> Mike Meyerhttp://www.mired.org/consulting.html
> Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information.
> 
> O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
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> 

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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Mike Meyer]

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 18:53:11 -0700
Devin Teske  wrote:

> Hello fellow hackers,
> 
> I'd love to finally release (under the BSD license) my code for the revamped 
> FreeBSD boot loader menu.
> 
> Here's a detailed discussion of the release complete with pictures:
> http://devinteske.com/new-freebsd-boot-loader-menu

Got it, nice simple install (as promised), and it worked like a charm.

I'd like to revisit the numbers vs. letters for menu options. IIRC
(and I may not), an earlier version used letters for the menu options,
and people objected to that change.

Since we're changing the menus, we ought to look at which is best for
the end user, as opposed to just doing what feels comfortable to us as
old users.

In particular, there was a study done around '80 (I tried to find it
but couldn't; I know of someone who can probably provide a reference
if someone really wants it) that showed that menu selection with
letters assigned mnemonically are easiest for users to memorize.

Not really a major issue - you shouldn't be booting FreeBSD systems
all that often, so it's not something I care very much about. However,
I figure someone ought to at least speak up for using system that's
better for new users rather than quietly doing it the old way since
we're making a change anyway.

http://www.mired.org/consulting.html
Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information.

O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Eitan Adler]

> I'd love to finally release (under the BSD license) my code for the revamped 
> FreeBSD boot loader menu.

Woot! Community contributions under a useful license :-)

> Here's the download:
> http://druidbsd.sourceforge.net/download/loader_menu-1.0.tgz

Painless installation - thanks!

>> And upon your next boot will use the new loader menu. A feature-complete 
>> sophisticated boot menu designed from the ground up.

The delay "loading boot menu" seems longer than it used to be. Perhaps
this is because I never paid attention or maybe because the "progress
bar" with the dots draws attention to it. Regardless this loader makes
a lot more sense to me than the original. I've always wanted to be
able to be into SUM && verbose logging or other combinations.

I tested this on a Lenovo G530 laptop and it seems to work fine with a
few different combinations as well as at the prompt.


Thanks for your work!



-- 
Eitan Adler
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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Devin Teske]

On Apr 25, 2011, at 8:30 AM, Eitan Adler wrote:

>> I'd love to finally release (under the BSD license) my code for the revamped 
>> FreeBSD boot loader menu.
> 
> Woot! Community contributions under a useful license :-)
> 
>> Here's the download:
>> http://druidbsd.sourceforge.net/download/loader_menu-1.0.tgz
> 
> Painless installation - thanks!
> 
>>> And upon your next boot will use the new loader menu. A feature-complete 
>>> sophisticated boot menu designed from the ground up.
> 
> The delay "loading boot menu" seems longer than it used to be. Perhaps
> this is because I never paid attention or maybe because the "progress
> bar" with the dots draws attention to it. Regardless this loader makes
> a lot more sense to me than the original. I've always wanted to be
> able to be into SUM && verbose logging or other combinations.
> 
> I tested this on a Lenovo G530 laptop and it seems to work fine with a
> few different combinations as well as at the prompt.
> 
> 
> Thanks for your work!

double-w00t! Time for the cake and punch!

Thank you for trying my work.
-- 
Devin

> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Eitan Adler


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Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Gary Jennejohn]

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 18:53:11 -0700
Devin Teske  wrote:

> I'd love to finally release (under the BSD license) my code for the
> revamped FreeBSD boot loader menu.
> 
> Here's a detailed discussion of the release complete with pictures: 
> http://devinteske.com/new-freebsd-boot-loader-menu
> 
> Here's the download: 
> http://druidbsd.sourceforge.net/download/loader_menu-1.0.tgz
> 
> The download is a FreeBSD package.  You can execute:
> 
> fetch [aboveURL] pkg_add loader_menu-1.0.tgz reboot
> 
> And upon your next boot will use the new loader menu.  A
> feature-complete sophisticated boot menu designed from the ground up.
> 

Although I personally never use the boot menu it's nice to see someone
trying to make it more usable for the average FreeBSD user.

-- 
Gary Jennejohn
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[RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu

[Devin Teske]

Hello fellow hackers,

I'd love to finally release (under the BSD license) my code for the revamped 
FreeBSD boot loader menu.

Here's a detailed discussion of the release complete with pictures:
http://devinteske.com/new-freebsd-boot-loader-menu

Here's the download:
http://druidbsd.sourceforge.net/download/loader_menu-1.0.tgz

The download is a FreeBSD package. You can execute:

fetch [aboveURL]
pkg_add loader_menu-1.0.tgz
reboot

And upon your next boot will use the new loader menu. A feature-complete 
sophisticated boot menu designed from the ground up.
-- 
Cheers,
Devin Teske



P.S. This code has been developed since 2006 and has been booted on hundreds of 
machines thousands of times by a group of more than two dozen field engineers 
trained to install, trouble-shoot, and maintain FreeBSD. It is only after this 
success that we are so happy to release this to the general public under the 
BSD license. Should it make its way into the base distribution, we would be 
honored, but that is not a necessity.

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