Re: Fwd: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, mal content <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> typed: > Docs are more important than drivers. Please ask for > docs. Yes. Drivers get us drivers for the platforms they decide to support, which will pretty much kill development on the open source drivers (check out the open source NVidia and ATI drivers). Docs get us the ability to have drivers for platforms they may not want to support. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Fwd: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux
What does this program do?
#include
int main(void)
{
printf("%u\n", 0x2a);
return 0;
}
Docs are more important than drivers. Please ask for
docs.
MC
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Re: Fwd: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux
On Sat, Jun 16, 2007 at 02:16:48PM -0700, Garrett Cooper wrote.. > Wilko Bulte wrote: > >On Sat, Jun 16, 2007 at 10:33:00AM +0100, Dieter wrote.. > > > >>So who, exactly, is the best person to write to requesting > >>docs for AMD/ATI graphics/video chips? > >> > >>We need to politely inform them that > >> > >>There are a lot of operating systems out there, > >>and they all need high quality, fully functional drivers. > >>FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Plan-9, Open-Solaris, ... > >> > >>We might want to add a ATI graphics/video card to a computer > >>with a different CPU architecture (Alpha, Sparc, PPC, ...) > >> > >>Binary drivers are useless, because: > >>Too many OSes. > >>Too many CPU archs. > >>Can't fix bugs. > >>Can't fix security holes. > >>Therefore we need documentation on how to program the chips. > >> > >>2D is not enough. We need video decoding and 3D. > >> > >>If we can't have high quality, fully functional source code drivers > >>for the OS and CPU arch of our choice, then there is no reason to > >>buy the product. > >> > >>Have I left out anything? > >> > > > >Well.. yes. "How much revenue ($$) AMD will loose when these open > >source projects do not get the chip docs". > > > >Ultimately the $$ question is what exec level management will ask. > > > > >Countering the above statements (the following are important I would not call that countering, I think we agree? > questions to answer, and should be done by their business types with > more hard data): >How much money will AMD lose on competitive edge versus market > segment share for the particular open source customer base? And is that enough to be noticable in the grander (MS-Windows) scheme of things> >How much of the ATI drivers will they have to modify in order to > ensure that they remain IP protected and the extremely proprietary > sections don't get put out in the open by accident? The outcome might even be that this is not worthwhile for them.. (blackest possible outcome, I agree). > -Garrett -- Wilko Bulte [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Fwd: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux
Wilko Bulte wrote: On Sat, Jun 16, 2007 at 10:33:00AM +0100, Dieter wrote.. So who, exactly, is the best person to write to requesting docs for AMD/ATI graphics/video chips? We need to politely inform them that There are a lot of operating systems out there, and they all need high quality, fully functional drivers. FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Plan-9, Open-Solaris, ... We might want to add a ATI graphics/video card to a computer with a different CPU architecture (Alpha, Sparc, PPC, ...) Binary drivers are useless, because: Too many OSes. Too many CPU archs. Can't fix bugs. Can't fix security holes. Therefore we need documentation on how to program the chips. 2D is not enough. We need video decoding and 3D. If we can't have high quality, fully functional source code drivers for the OS and CPU arch of our choice, then there is no reason to buy the product. Have I left out anything? Well.. yes. "How much revenue ($$) AMD will loose when these open source projects do not get the chip docs". Ultimately the $$ question is what exec level management will ask. Countering the above statements (the following are important questions to answer, and should be done by their business types with more hard data): How much money will AMD lose on competitive edge versus market segment share for the particular open source customer base? How much of the ATI drivers will they have to modify in order to ensure that they remain IP protected and the extremely proprietary sections don't get put out in the open by accident? -Garrett ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Fwd: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux
On Sat, Jun 16, 2007 at 10:33:00AM +0100, Dieter wrote.. > So who, exactly, is the best person to write to requesting > docs for AMD/ATI graphics/video chips? > > We need to politely inform them that > > There are a lot of operating systems out there, > and they all need high quality, fully functional drivers. > FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Plan-9, Open-Solaris, ... > > We might want to add a ATI graphics/video card to a computer > with a different CPU architecture (Alpha, Sparc, PPC, ...) > > Binary drivers are useless, because: > Too many OSes. > Too many CPU archs. > Can't fix bugs. > Can't fix security holes. > Therefore we need documentation on how to program the chips. > > 2D is not enough. We need video decoding and 3D. > > If we can't have high quality, fully functional source code drivers > for the OS and CPU arch of our choice, then there is no reason to > buy the product. > > Have I left out anything? Well.. yes. "How much revenue ($$) AMD will loose when these open source projects do not get the chip docs". Ultimately the $$ question is what exec level management will ask. -- Wilko Bulte [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Fwd: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux
So who, exactly, is the best person to write to requesting docs for AMD/ATI graphics/video chips? We need to politely inform them that There are a lot of operating systems out there, and they all need high quality, fully functional drivers. FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Plan-9, Open-Solaris, ... We might want to add a ATI graphics/video card to a computer with a different CPU architecture (Alpha, Sparc, PPC, ...) Binary drivers are useless, because: Too many OSes. Too many CPU archs. Can't fix bugs. Can't fix security holes. Therefore we need documentation on how to program the chips. 2D is not enough. We need video decoding and 3D. If we can't have high quality, fully functional source code drivers for the OS and CPU arch of our choice, then there is no reason to buy the product. Have I left out anything? ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Fwd: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Ali Mashtizadeh wrote: Hi, Sun's pushing ATI/AMD to provide good drivers for Solaris, so it means they will have to work on the portability issue of their drivers. It is probably the best time to influence AMD's decision since they are going to do what Sun tells them. Nvidia has an easier time porting their drivers since the core of the driver is the same across all platforms AFAIK. Hopefully, they will realize the best stratedgy is to open source their drivers, which there has been some hints about it recently. -- Ali Mashtizadeh علی مشتی زاده On 6/15/07, Jeremy Chadwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Fri, Jun 15, 2007 at 02:03:39PM -0400, Ali Mashtizadeh wrote: > Hey everyone, > > This email went out on Xorg I thought it might be useful for all of us stuck > with ATI cards. We should all show our interest in AMD helping out the BSD > community as well! Just like Nvidia has been doing! "Linux strategy" -- gotta love the use of the word "strategy", like they're playing chess or Risk or Daisenryaku. Yes, because supporting an operating system involves "strategy". Not to sound rude, but I wouldn't hold your breath over the statement. Yes, *absolutely* mail them and show support for the BSDs, and tell them you'll be happy to beta test whatever they put out (as long as they have a good feedback method for reporting those bugs; not some defunct HTML form web page that sends submissions to /dev/null). I believe AMD/ATI cares about providing a good driver base (for Linux and probably the BSDs), but no matter how many customers mail them, the reality of the situation is a disappointing one: managers and executives of sorts are who have say over all of this, who decide all of this, and who ultimately make the statements on all of this. As a Texan co-worker of mine says, "too many chiefs, not enough indians". nVidia has the same "problem", for what it's worth. -- | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | 1. This shouldn't have been sent to the hackers@ list, because it's more of a discussion than a technical topic. 2. Please top post. Disregarding those 2 comments, I have a few thoughts: 1. It doesn't matter which company you deal with, ATI/AMD, Intel, nVidia -- all are large corporations and swaying the interest of the execs and legal depts to release corporate secrets and technologies is a big deal because it's their competitive edges in the marketplace. 2. Intel did opensourced their graphics drivers, and of course there's been a great deal of followup discussion about nVidia and ATI doing the same thing, but like Jeremy said I have little faith in the companies opensourcing their drivers for at least 1-2 years because their secrets are their livelihood and they don't want competitors having access to them. 3. The ATI Linux drivers quite frankly suck right now. They're currently at the stage that nVidia was 3-4 years ago with Linux (working, but not on all distros, quite a few hacks in place), and I wasn't impressed in the least by them (hence I dumped my ATI card and purchased an nVidia one). 4. Sun is a lot different than Linux or FreeBSD. Sun is a software/hardware vendor with plenty of financial collateral behind them, so their getting support faster than FreeBSD is more likely, as long as the devs are there to support Solaris. 5. I did email ATI about support and apparently I sent my message to the wrong section (I should have requested a driver enhancement, not filed bug -- I hate some online forms and their lack of clarity). But since I purchased my nVidia card after the fact I never followed up on the reply I got from ATI. I highly doubt your message gets shuffled away into nowhere; it would create a bad corporate image to ignore current/potential customers ;). Cheers, -Garrett ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Fwd: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux
Hi, Sun's pushing ATI/AMD to provide good drivers for Solaris, so it means they will have to work on the portability issue of their drivers. It is probably the best time to influence AMD's decision since they are going to do what Sun tells them. Nvidia has an easier time porting their drivers since the core of the driver is the same across all platforms AFAIK. Hopefully, they will realize the best stratedgy is to open source their drivers, which there has been some hints about it recently. -- Ali Mashtizadeh علی مشتی زاده On 6/15/07, Jeremy Chadwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Fri, Jun 15, 2007 at 02:03:39PM -0400, Ali Mashtizadeh wrote: > Hey everyone, > > This email went out on Xorg I thought it might be useful for all of us stuck > with ATI cards. We should all show our interest in AMD helping out the BSD > community as well! Just like Nvidia has been doing! "Linux strategy" -- gotta love the use of the word "strategy", like they're playing chess or Risk or Daisenryaku. Yes, because supporting an operating system involves "strategy". Not to sound rude, but I wouldn't hold your breath over the statement. Yes, *absolutely* mail them and show support for the BSDs, and tell them you'll be happy to beta test whatever they put out (as long as they have a good feedback method for reporting those bugs; not some defunct HTML form web page that sends submissions to /dev/null). I believe AMD/ATI cares about providing a good driver base (for Linux and probably the BSDs), but no matter how many customers mail them, the reality of the situation is a disappointing one: managers and executives of sorts are who have say over all of this, who decide all of this, and who ultimately make the statements on all of this. As a Texan co-worker of mine says, "too many chiefs, not enough indians". nVidia has the same "problem", for what it's worth. -- | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Fwd: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux
On Fri, Jun 15, 2007 at 02:03:39PM -0400, Ali Mashtizadeh wrote: > Hey everyone, > > This email went out on Xorg I thought it might be useful for all of us stuck > with ATI cards. We should all show our interest in AMD helping out the BSD > community as well! Just like Nvidia has been doing! "Linux strategy" -- gotta love the use of the word "strategy", like they're playing chess or Risk or Daisenryaku. Yes, because supporting an operating system involves "strategy". Not to sound rude, but I wouldn't hold your breath over the statement. Yes, *absolutely* mail them and show support for the BSDs, and tell them you'll be happy to beta test whatever they put out (as long as they have a good feedback method for reporting those bugs; not some defunct HTML form web page that sends submissions to /dev/null). I believe AMD/ATI cares about providing a good driver base (for Linux and probably the BSDs), but no matter how many customers mail them, the reality of the situation is a disappointing one: managers and executives of sorts are who have say over all of this, who decide all of this, and who ultimately make the statements on all of this. As a Texan co-worker of mine says, "too many chiefs, not enough indians". nVidia has the same "problem", for what it's worth. -- | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Fwd: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux
Hey everyone, This email went out on Xorg I thought it might be useful for all of us stuck with ATI cards. We should all show our interest in AMD helping out the BSD community as well! Just like Nvidia has been doing! -- Ali Mashtizadeh علی مشتی زاده -- Forwarded message -- From: Dotan Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Jun 15, 2007 1:14 PM Subject: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux To: xorg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I wrote to AMD regarding the state of ATI Linux drivers and the company's view of the Linux community. This is the response I got: "Thanks - could you contact us again in July? We're reviewing our Linux strategy right now, so anything I tell you know could be out of date in weeks." You can read the whole message here: http://dotancohen.com/eng/linux_compatibility.php Feel free to Digg or /. it. Friends, NOW is the time to contact AMD and to let them know that we need their support. Please, write to them, call them, now is the time. Even for those who don't use AMD products, the precedent set here will most certainly echo throughout the hardware world. Take the 5 minutes and convince AMD that the Linux community cannot be ignored. Note: I have posted this letter to several mailing lists. Those who know me from those lists will know that I don't, as a rule, crosspost. However, I felt this to be important enough to cross the line and crosspost to the lists I felt would be interested. Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/ http://what-is-what.com/ ___ xorg mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
