RE: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
Dear hackers, thanks for maintaining it on FreeBSD you are welcome, and happy new year for everybody! :) why rename killall? what's next? rename init? why not enhance kill? this is the end of alias? omg... write shell script and name it, this is not a sin. it can be a crime... but don't worry, all freebsd users will go to hell anyways. underdog. my dream is a /lib/kill.so (and a job) _ Fique protegido de ameças utilizando o Novo Internet Explorer 8. Baixe já, é grátis! http://brasil.microsoft.com.br/IE8/mergulhe/?utm_source=MSN%3BHotmailutm_medium=Taglineutm_content=Tag1utm_campaign=IE8___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
Stephen Montgomery-Smith escribió: I would like to introduce a program into the base called screw-the-whole-system. It would do something like this: while true; do \ echo Please wait while your system is being destroyed... sleep 10 done ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org Why not adding regexp functionality to our killall in order just to do root # killall * System is going down INMEDIATELY and then forget about the shutdown command to save some KiB of space? ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
man pkill DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - d...@des.no ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:18:43 -0800 Xin LI delp...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Jason A. Spiro jasonspi...@gmail.com wrote: Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? No. killall is not part of standard, and, just because System V choose to implement that way, does not warrant that FreeBSD has to. Moreover, user can always alias /sbin/killall to 'fkill' and 'kill -15 -1' to 'killall' if they really want the System V behavior. I'm wondering why we even need killall when pkill seems to have the same basic functionality and is located in /bin (and /rescue) rather than /usr/bin? --- Gary Jennejohn ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
Am 22.12.2009 11:33, schrieb Dag-Erling Smørgrav: man pkill And that one is also provided on Solaris. -- Matthias Andree ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 01:31:02AM -0500, Jason A. Spiro wrote: Naming it the same as System V killall, which just kills all processes, can wreak havoc. When someone types a standard Linux killall command line as root on a Solaris or HP-UX server, System V killall runs and kills all processes. Hello Jason (and the FreeBSD folk), The problem for me is that killall in Linux has been called that for a very long time now. psmisc came out 11 years ago and before that killall was in procps. I'm not sure when but the copyright message says 1994. That's 16 years or more of people getting very used to killall doing what it does and being called killall. I know of the problem you refer to having administered Solaris servers before, but changing the name now will cause more problems than it solves. Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? I'm not. Even though I just got a new SATA drive its not big enough to handle the torrent of emails from people saying why did i do that and who cares about Solaris etc etc if I did change it. Sounds like its a no from FreeBSD folk too. In fact to me its more important my various programs look the same(ish) across the Linux distributions and to FreeBSD than they are to Solaris. I also agree with Daniel; why would anyone want to literally kill every process? - Craig -- Craig Small GnuPG:1C1B D893 1418 2AF4 45EE 95CB C76C E5AC 12CA DFA5 http://www.enc.com.au/ csmall at : enc.com.au http://www.debian.org/ Debian GNU/Linux, software should be Free ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
On Tue, 22.12.2009 at 11:53:36 +0100, Gary Jennejohn wrote: On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 23:18:43 -0800 Xin LI delp...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Jason A. Spiro jasonspi...@gmail.com wrote: Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? No. killall is not part of standard, and, just because System V choose to implement that way, does not warrant that FreeBSD has to. Moreover, user can always alias /sbin/killall to 'fkill' and 'kill -15 -1' to 'killall' if they really want the System V behavior. I'm wondering why we even need killall when pkill seems to have the same basic functionality and is located in /bin (and /rescue) rather than /usr/bin? Seconded, people should make it a habit to use pkill or for example pgrep instead of killall or ps|grep. Way more portable anyway :) Regards, Uli ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009, Craig Small wrote: I also agree with Daniel; why would anyone want to literally kill every process? AFAIK, it's a helper program for shutdown(8) (or shutdown(1M) as they call it) and isn't really intended to be useful otherwise. -- Nate Eldredge n...@thatsmathematics.com ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
I would like to introduce a program into the base called screw-the-whole-system. It would do something like this: while true; do \ echo Please wait while your system is being destroyed... sleep 10 done ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 01:31, jasonspiro4@ wrote: Dear Craig, thanks for maintaining the killall command on Linux. Dear hackers, thanks for maintaining it on FreeBSD. Naming it the same as System V killall, which just kills all processes, can wreak havoc. When someone types a standard Linux killall command line as root on a Solaris or HP-UX server, System V killall runs and kills all processes. It might be good if you'd rename it to something else. Not akill (All Kill): it looks like IRIX probably ships with something called akill already, so this would be confusing. Maybe fkill (Friendly Kill). You could do this in phases: for the first five years, /usr/bin/killall could print a warning onscreen, then function as usual. After five years, it could cease to function unless you call it as fkill. Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? -Jason This is what shell aliases are for and what a system admins job consist of. If it gives you that much of a problem just alias it out for your self in your .cshrc .shrc .bashrc .bash_profile etc. If you want to change something on a more per user basis figure out how to setup a skeleton directory so when a new user is created they get all the files from that skel copied into there home. If it is more of a system-wide change then the shell files in /etc will probably be of more use. PS: Applying your changes to a mailing list are not const. -- Tue Dec 22 14:09:40 2009 jhell ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
Gary Jennejohn gary.jennejohn at freenet.de writes: I'm wondering why we even need killall when pkill seems to have the same basic functionality and is located in /bin (and /rescue) rather than /usr/bin? I like killall because of its -v (verbose) option. It lets me know what killall killed. You just inspired me to request the pkill upstream maintainer to add a similar option. My feature request is at http://bugs.debian.org/562111 . -Jason ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
Craig Small csmall at enc.com.au writes: On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 01:31:02AM -0500, Jason A. Spiro wrote: Hello Jason (and the FreeBSD folk), The problem for me is that killall in Linux has been called that for a very long time now. psmisc came out 11 years ago and before that killall was in procps. I'm not sure when but the copyright message says 1994. That's 16 years or more of people getting very used to killall doing what it does and being called killall. I know of the problem you refer to having administered Solaris servers before, but changing the name now will cause more problems than it solves. What problems will it cause, other than a torrent of complaints? Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? I'm not. Even though I just got a new SATA drive its not big enough to handle the torrent of emails from people saying why did i do that and who cares about Solaris etc etc if I did change it. I can create a special email address for this, you can mention Complaints to and the new address in the warning message, and I can try to reply to everyone. I will make use of form letters whenever it makes sense to. Sounds like its a no from FreeBSD folk too. In fact to me its more important my various programs look the same(ish) across the Linux distributions and to FreeBSD than they are to Solaris. [snip] I will reply to Xin's no message later. I agree that it's a good idea that you and the FreeBSD folk should use the same name for the same utility. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
Daniel O'Connor doconnor at gsoft.com.au writes: snark Why not get Sun and HP to change killall to match Linux *BSD behaviour? /snark Although seriously, why not? killall just killing everything is a fairly dangerous command with almost no use in the real world. Because I find that when I send feedback to closed-source software vendors, I often get no reply at all. But if any of you want to file an OpenSolaris bug or write to HP or any other of the Unix vendors who ship a dangerous killall command (I think most do), feel free. Please let us know that you've done so, to help us avoid duplication. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 2:18 AM, Xin LI delp...@gmail.com wrote: No. killall is not part of standard, and, just because System V choose to implement that way, does not warrant that FreeBSD has to. Moreover, user can always alias /sbin/killall to 'fkill' and 'kill -15 -1' to 'killall' if they really want the System V behavior. Xin, I'd like to discuss this issue with you by some means other than email. Could you please phone me at (646) 461-3412 (my Google Voice call forwarding number, New York, NY); or is Skype voice chat okay? (Those are my preferred options.) Or how about IRC or MSN text discussion? I can summarize the results of our conversation to the mailing list afterwards. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
jhell jhell at DataIX.net writes: This is what shell aliases are for and what a system admins job consist of. If it gives you that much of a problem just alias it out for your self in your .cshrc .shrc .bashrc .bash_profile etc. If you want to change something on a more per user basis figure out how to setup a skeleton directory so when a new user is created they get all the files from that skel copied into there home. If it is more of a system-wide change then the shell files in /etc will probably be of more use. PS: Applying your changes to a mailing list are not const. Using aliases would help me, but wouldn't help people elsewhere in the world who don't know what SysV killall does. Renaming FreeBSD killall would help prevent them from getting burned, perhaps on a busy production server, even once. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
Hi, On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Jason Spiro jasonspi...@gmail.com wrote: jhell jhell at DataIX.net writes: This is what shell aliases are for and what a system admins job consist of. If it gives you that much of a problem just alias it out for your self in your .cshrc .shrc .bashrc .bash_profile etc. If you want to change something on a more per user basis figure out how to setup a skeleton directory so when a new user is created they get all the files from that skel copied into there home. If it is more of a system-wide change then the shell files in /etc will probably be of more use. PS: Applying your changes to a mailing list are not const. Using aliases would help me, but wouldn't help people elsewhere in the world who don't know what SysV killall does. Renaming FreeBSD killall would help prevent them from getting burned, perhaps on a busy production server, even once. I'm afraid that it's too late to change either parties, i.e. there would be a lot of scripts that rely on the BSD or Linux behavior, etc. Instead of making changes to killall which already diverge between open source implementation and closed source ones, it might be better off to have administrators to learn some more consistent ways to do the same task, i.e. pkill. Cheers, -- Xin LI delp...@delphij.net http://www.delphij.net ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
Hi Xin, On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Xin LI delp...@gmail.com wrote: I'm afraid that it's too late to change either parties, i.e. there would be a lot of scripts that rely on the BSD or Linux behavior, etc. That is why I suggested that you first show a warning message for five years, then do the renaming. Instead of making changes to killall which already diverge between open source implementation and closed source ones, If you rename the open source killall to fkill, then you will no longer have a killall command which differs between open source and closed source. it might be better off to have administrators to learn some more consistent ways to do the same task, i.e. pkill. It would be good if sysadmins learned not to use killall. But I think that most sysadmins who are already used to killall are unlikely to learn not to type the command killall unless you rename open-source killall to a different name like fkill. I think it's impractical to expect all sysadmins to switch to pkill. Pkill is missing the option which displays a list onscreen of which processes were killed. I sent a feature request to the maintainer, but there is no guarantee that the maintainer will add that option. And maybe there are other pkill options which are missing from skill. Cheers, -Jason ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Jason A. Spiro jasonspi...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] Xin, I'd like to discuss this issue with you by some means other than email. Followup to my earlier message: Thanks for sending me a private mail with your Jabber address. I added you. But then I saw your most recent list post, and realized that I'd prefer to discuss killall by list posting than private instant messaging for now. -Jason ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
Jason Spiro wrote: Using aliases would help me, but wouldn't help people elsewhere in the world who don't know what SysV killall does. Seriously, it's not our problem if solaris did something stupid. There is no hope whatsoever that you're going to get every Unix that has a rational 'killall' command to change, so can we please drop this thread? Thanks, Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover!http://SupersetSolutions.com/ ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
On 2009/12/22 14:54, Jason A. Spiro wrote: Hi Xin, On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Xin LIdelp...@gmail.com wrote: I'm afraid that it's too late to change either parties, i.e. there would be a lot of scripts that rely on the BSD or Linux behavior, etc. That is why I suggested that you first show a warning message for five years, then do the renaming. killall can be used by scripts which just works in the past, and will never notice the warnings. Also, killall is not that dangerous on FreeBSD, we should ONLY give warnings when it's really necessary, otherwise users would just ignore all warnings we gave to them. On the other hand, it seems to us that warning messages won't work, no matter how long we give it, it is being ignored by a majority of users. Instead of making changes to killall which already diverge between open source implementation and closed source ones, If you rename the open source killall to fkill, then you will no longer have a killall command which differs between open source and closed source. Then users are already familiar with FreeBSD would have to learn what fkill is, and after all, having them to pay for mistakes made by commercial Unix vendors does not seem to be a fair option. it might be better off to have administrators to learn some more consistent ways to do the same task, i.e. pkill. It would be good if sysadmins learned not to use killall. But I think that most sysadmins who are already used to killall are unlikely to learn not to type the command killall unless you rename open-source killall to a different name like fkill. Well, I'd say it's too late for us to change since it's several years after we have 'killall' our way. I think it's impractical to expect all sysadmins to switch to pkill. Pkill is missing the option which displays a list onscreen of which processes were killed. I sent a feature request to the maintainer, but there is no guarantee that the maintainer will add that option. And maybe there are other pkill options which are missing from skill. pkill have '-I', at least on FreeBSD... Cheers, -- Xin LI delp...@delphij.net http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! Live free or die ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
You forgot to mention that we should wait ten years; and after that change it's name to killall Stephen Montgomery-Smith schreef: I would like to introduce a program into the base called screw-the-whole-system. It would do something like this: while true; do \ echo Please wait while your system is being destroyed... sleep 10 done ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Doug Barton do...@freebsd.org wrote: Seriously, it's not our problem if solaris did something stupid. Actually, it looks like the mistake was made by Linux and FreeBSD developers. SunOS had[1] killall in 1992, and maybe earlier. Craig said the earliest copyright date on Linux killall is 1994. I think FreeBSD killall is newer than 1994, since its manpage says that it was modeled after the killall included with other OSes. I think this must mean Linux. When Linux and FreeBSD made their kill-selected-processes command, they shouldn't've called it killALL. But mistakes happen. Luckily, mistakes can be corrected. There is no hope whatsoever that you're going to get every Unix that has a rational 'killall' command to change, so can we please drop this thread? It's never too late to change something for the better. Xorg finally set Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to be disabled by default about a year ago, to prevent accidental data loss by newbies. Some people agree with this, some people disagree, but the change is done. So it would have been better to write There is little hope, so can we please drop this thread? instead. ^ [1]. http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/817-0708/6mgg6t7gv?a=view ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
Jason A. Spiro wrote: On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Doug Barton do...@freebsd.org wrote: There is no hope whatsoever that you're going to get every Unix that has a rational 'killall' command to change, so can we please drop this thread? It's never too late to change something for the better. And yet there is ZERO interest in changing this in FreeBSD. Why don't you start working on the various linux distros instead, and report back here with your results. Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover!http://SupersetSolutions.com/ ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
Xin LI delphij at delphij.net writes: killall can be used by scripts which just works in the past, and will never notice the warnings. On what scripts will nobody notice the warnings? For example, AFAIK, cron job output is always mailed to root. The only scripts I can think of are scripts called by web applications like PHP, and I can't think of any concrete case where they would run killall. Also, killall is not that dangerous on FreeBSD, we should ONLY give warnings when it's really necessary, otherwise users would just ignore all warnings we gave to them. On the other hand, it seems to us that warning messages won't work, no matter how long we give it, it is being ignored by a majority of users. Good points. Then users are already familiar with FreeBSD would have to learn what fkill is, and after all, having them to pay for mistakes made by commercial Unix vendors does not seem to be a fair option. As I wrote elsewhere[1] in this thread, it seems to me the commercial vendors made no mistakes here; only Linux and FreeBSD made mistakes. Well, I'd say it's too late for us to change since it's several years after we have 'killall' our way. I replied to this in the last paragraph of text in [1]. pkill have '-I', at least on FreeBSD... There is no such option in pkill on Linux.[2] ^ [1]. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.os.freebsd.devel.hackers/38308/focus=38332 ^ [2]. http://linux.die.net/man/1/pkill ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 7:00 PM, Doug Barton do...@freebsd.org wrote: And yet there is ZERO interest in changing this in FreeBSD. As you can see elsewhere in this thread, I am discussing it with Xin. So far, both he and the Linux killall maintainer have said no, but I am using rational arguments to try to convince each of them. I await their next replies. Why don't you start working on the various linux distros instead, and report back here with your results. All the Linux distros use the same killall, maintained by Craig Small. I don't know when he got de-CC'ed from this thread. I have re-added him to the CC field in this message. And it seems to me that neither NetBSD or OpenBSD ship with a killall utility, so there is no need to change such a thing as this in those OSes. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
On 2009/12/22 16:21, Jason Spiro wrote: Xin LIdelphijat delphij.net writes: killall can be used by scripts which just works in the past, and will never notice the warnings. On what scripts will nobody notice the warnings? For example, AFAIK, cron job output is always mailed to root. The only scripts I can think of are scripts called by web applications like PHP, and I can't think of any concrete case where they would run killall. killall is used for instance, shutdown scripts. Yes you get the warning message on your console but not the remote ssh. [...] Then users are already familiar with FreeBSD would have to learn what fkill is, and after all, having them to pay for mistakes made by commercial Unix vendors does not seem to be a fair option. As I wrote elsewhere[1] in this thread, it seems to me the commercial vendors made no mistakes here; only Linux and FreeBSD made mistakes. I think we can hardly call it a 'mistake'. Having a command that do the same thing what shutdown(8) should do doesn't seem to be the Unix way to do things. Speaking about commercial vendor, Mac OS X have the same killall as FreeBSD have. Granted, Mac OS X is not something we consider as traditional Unix, but it's certificated as Unix operating system after all. Well, I'd say it's too late for us to change since it's several years after we have 'killall' our way. I replied to this in the last paragraph of text in [1]. It's way too late to say something a mistake after about 15 years. I think it might be reasonable to document the System V behavior and how to do the same thing on FreeBSD in killall's manual page, but I'm afraid that's all we can do nowadays, since FreeBSD users are already get used with our killall behavior, changing the behavior/semantics after ten years just make a mess, so please drop this. pkill have '-I', at least on FreeBSD... There is no such option in pkill on Linux.[2] Please talk with the authors of Linux pkill. In open source world a well written patch would say more than a thousand of sayings. Cheers, -- Xin LI delp...@delphij.net http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! Live free or die ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
Jason A. Spiro wrote: On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 7:00 PM, Doug Barton do...@freebsd.org wrote: And yet there is ZERO interest in changing this in FreeBSD. As you can see elsewhere in this thread, I am discussing it with Xin. So far, both he and the Linux killall maintainer have said no, but I am using rational arguments to try to convince each of them. I await their next replies. Sounds like you have your bases covered, so there is no reason to involve the list any further. Doug -- Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover!http://SupersetSolutions.com/ ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
Dear Craig, thanks for maintaining the killall command on Linux. Dear hackers, thanks for maintaining it on FreeBSD. Naming it the same as System V killall, which just kills all processes, can wreak havoc. When someone types a standard Linux killall command line as root on a Solaris or HP-UX server, System V killall runs and kills all processes. It might be good if you'd rename it to something else. Not akill (All Kill): it looks like IRIX probably ships with something called akill already, so this would be confusing. Maybe fkill (Friendly Kill). You could do this in phases: for the first five years, /usr/bin/killall could print a warning onscreen, then function as usual. After five years, it could cease to function unless you call it as fkill. Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? -Jason -- Jason Spiro: software/web developer, packager, trainer, IT consultant. I support Linux, UNIX, Windows, and more. Contact me to discuss your needs. +1 (416) 992-3445 / www.jspiro.com ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009, Jason A. Spiro wrote: Naming it the same as System V killall, which just kills all processes, can wreak havoc. When someone types a standard Linux killall command line as root on a Solaris or HP-UX server, System V killall runs and kills all processes. It might be good if you'd rename it to something else. Not akill (All Kill): it looks like IRIX probably ships with something called akill already, so this would be confusing. Maybe fkill (Friendly Kill). snark Why not get Sun and HP to change killall to match Linux *BSD behaviour? /snark Although seriously, why not? killall just killing everything is a fairly dangerous command with almost no use in the real world. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Suggestion: rename killall to fkill, but wait five years to phase the new name in
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Jason A. Spiro jasonspi...@gmail.com wrote: Craig, and hackers, are you both willing to do this? No. killall is not part of standard, and, just because System V choose to implement that way, does not warrant that FreeBSD has to. Moreover, user can always alias /sbin/killall to 'fkill' and 'kill -15 -1' to 'killall' if they really want the System V behavior. Cheers, -- Xin LI delp...@delphij.net http://www.delphij.net ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
