Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-15 Thread Jeremy Messenger
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 02:38:48 -0500, Alexey Shuvaev  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 10:31:18AM -0500, Jeremy Messenger wrote:
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:09:06 -0500, Jeremy Messenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:



On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:50:09 -0500, Alexey Shuvaev
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



IMHO gio-fam-backend should not be implicit dependency. Otherwise why
not to install all existing non-conflicting libraries just to ease
maintainer's life :->
FWIW x11-toolkits/gtkdatabox2 (PR 116120) do not need gio-fam-backend.


Well, all ports should depend on gio-fam-backend. The gio is included  
and

part of glib20. marcus had to split gio out of glib20 package to avoid
circle dependency of glib20 -> gamin (FAM replacement) -> glib20. If
marcus doesn't split and you guys will have that gio library anyway.


Thanks, somewhat much clearer now. I had some feeling that  
gio-fam-backend is

freebsd specific.
How many chances are there to account for existence of gamin upstream?
(So to avoid glib -> gamin -> glib circular dependency)


I had chat with marcus (included my team) to get more clear info for us.  
He said:



Here's the deal.  Glib 2.16 includes a lot of the file management
code  that was previously included in gnome-vfs.  Part of that code
is a file monitor wrapper which allows the new GIO subsystem to get
real-time file update information.  This wrapper has FAM, inotify,
and Solaris backends.  The only backend that works on FreeBSD is
the FAM backend.


If anyone is still complaining, then anyone can implement a GIO monitor  
using pure kqueue. This will get glib20 to not depend on FAM anymore. It  
can be take a lot of code from gamin.


marcus has said a bit more:

Since we couldn't have glib depend on FAM directly, I broke out
this file monitor module into a separate port.  Any port which
depends on glib could use the GIO subsystem, and would need one of
these file monitor modules to be fully functional.  I thought it
would be easier to just make ports that depend on glib20
automatically require this module so maintainers wouldn't have to
check and see if their port used GIO.

Fam/gamin are not big dependencies.  Hell, they don't even take
up memory unless used.


Keep in mind, in the next major release of GTK+ depends on GIO. It's  
already in GTK+ SVN for depend on GIO, so it won't make any difference.



Uh, I should have check in glib20 and gio-fam-backend before I made that
comment. I thought that gio (libgio-2.0.so) is in gio-fam-backend, but  
not

it's in glib20. The gio-fam-backend only installs libgiofam.so and FAM
support is option in glib configure. I don't think it will be easy to  
make

optional (maybe I am wrong) with that split. Remove gio-fam-backend
dependency is going to hurt some users if they want some missing  
fuction(s)

of it.



So configure option is not enough.


Nevermind about above for not think will be easy. I have taken a look more  
in gio-fam-backend and figured out to make optional. I am still discussing  
with my team (some disagree and agree), because make it optional will  
causing some reduced functionality in runtime. I am thinking about add  
something like WITHOUT_FAM_WARNING with better explain and users will know  
their choice to have functions reduced, so can't be report to us.


IMO, I do still think add optional is a bit silly since GIO basicually  
already have similar function of gamin. It's just happen that there is no  
kqueue backend available for FreeBSD and forced us to get glib20 depends  
on FAM or gamin. I am kind of on fence to make it optional.



Does separating gio-fam-backend by original developers solve the
problem better?


I think marcus's comments have answered to this.

Cheers,
Mezz


Alexey.



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compatibility with installed ports (Re: what is gio-fam?)

2008-04-15 Thread Mikhail Teterin
вівторок 15 квітень 2008 10:43 до, Ricardo Nabinger Sanchez Ви написали:
> > Going forward, one hopes, gnome-team will not be so cavalier in forcing
> > upgrades...
>
> How about working with the gnome-team instead of blaming them?  I'd bet
> that if you had to upgrade Gnome by hand, you would be using KDE or
> something else.

Yes, yes. We have to come to this point, don't we? After several attempts are 
made at defending a blunder, an indignant request is made for the complaining 
party to help the culprit (even if an /explicit/ aknowledgement of the 
blunder is yet to appear)...

Gnome@ is a team. They are not lacking in resources, AFAIK. The author of 
tinderbox is a prominent member, for crying out loud! The problem is the 
"philosophy". I readily admit, that their work is vast, but the "all your 
ports are belong to us" and the "portupgrade is easy, so shut up" attitude is 
not something, that "working with the gnome-team" can help with...

Meanwhile, judging from what can be gathered from their mailing lists, the 
KDE@ team is working hard to ensure peaceful co-existence of KDE3 and KDE4 
ports...

> Shouting at gnome-team won't help at all.

Pointing out a problem sometimes helps prevent it from reoccuring or, at 
least, reduce the frequency/severety of the reoccurance(s). Sometimes it also 
helps fix the current instance...

 -mi
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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-15 Thread Ricardo Nabinger Sanchez
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:03:18 -0400
Mikhail Teterin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> вівторок 15 квітень 2008 08:55 до, Ricardo Nabinger Sanchez Ви написали:
> > Not quite.  I also faced this, but was lucky to discover in time (not
> > closing any open app) where this dependency was coming from.  The only port
> > I had to update was glib, a couple of times, and gio-fam was finally built.
> 
> > This was instinctive, but worked.
> 
> "A couple of times"? Congratulations...

Thanks.

> 
> One should not need this luck, nor this instinct, however.

It wasn't luck, I usually upgrade a few ports before launching a bunch of 
upgrades.  Glib build broke during some other port upgrade, and I checked what 
happened.  Updated its dependencies, itself forcibly, and then resumed the 
other port.

> 
> Until I decide to upgrade gnome, all other gnome-using ports should be 
> content 
> with the version of gnome I already have...
> 
> This is all patently obvious, I might add. The automatic gio-fam dependency 
> should be made smarter and/or optional (depending on which gnome is already 
> installed).
> 
> Going forward, one hopes, gnome-team will not be so cavalier in forcing 
> upgrades...

How about working with the gnome-team instead of blaming them?  I'd bet that if 
you had to upgrade Gnome by hand, you would be using KDE or something else.

Shouting at gnome-team won't help at all.


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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-15 Thread Mikhail Teterin
вівторок 15 квітень 2008 08:55 до, Ricardo Nabinger Sanchez Ви написали:
> Not quite.  I also faced this, but was lucky to discover in time (not
> closing any open app) where this dependency was coming from.  The only port
> I had to update was glib, a couple of times, and gio-fam was finally built.

> This was instinctive, but worked.

"A couple of times"? Congratulations...

One should not need this luck, nor this instinct, however.

Until I decide to upgrade gnome, all other gnome-using ports should be content 
with the version of gnome I already have...

This is all patently obvious, I might add. The automatic gio-fam dependency 
should be made smarter and/or optional (depending on which gnome is already 
installed).

Going forward, one hopes, gnome-team will not be so cavalier in forcing 
upgrades...

 -mi
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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-15 Thread Ricardo Nabinger Sanchez
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:43:22 -0400
Mikhail Teterin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> No, thanks. I want the most recent version /of the port/. And the port itself 
> does not care, which version of GNOME it is built against -- it is happy, 
> with /what I already have/ (earlier GNOME). Yet, I'm forced to upgrade, what 
> I already have -- gratuicously...

Not quite.  I also faced this, but was lucky to discover in time (not closing 
any open app) where this dependency was coming from.  The only port I had to 
update was glib, a couple of times, and gio-fam was finally built.

This was instinctive, but worked.

-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://rnsanchez.wait4.org

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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-15 Thread Alexey Shuvaev
On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 10:31:18AM -0500, Jeremy Messenger wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:09:06 -0500, Jeremy Messenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:50:09 -0500, Alexey Shuvaev 
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> IMHO gio-fam-backend should not be implicit dependency. Otherwise why
>>> not to install all existing non-conflicting libraries just to ease
>>> maintainer's life :->
>>> FWIW x11-toolkits/gtkdatabox2 (PR 116120) do not need gio-fam-backend.
>>
>> Well, all ports should depend on gio-fam-backend. The gio is included and 
>> part of glib20. marcus had to split gio out of glib20 package to avoid 
>> circle dependency of glib20 -> gamin (FAM replacement) -> glib20. If 
>> marcus doesn't split and you guys will have that gio library anyway.

Thanks, somewhat much clearer now. I had some feeling that gio-fam-backend is
freebsd specific.
How many chances are there to account for existence of gamin upstream?
(So to avoid glib -> gamin -> glib circular dependency)

>
> Uh, I should have check in glib20 and gio-fam-backend before I made that 
> comment. I thought that gio (libgio-2.0.so) is in gio-fam-backend, but not 
> it's in glib20. The gio-fam-backend only installs libgiofam.so and FAM 
> support is option in glib configure. I don't think it will be easy to make 
> optional (maybe I am wrong) with that split. Remove gio-fam-backend 
> dependency is going to hurt some users if they want some missing fuction(s) 
> of it.
>

So configure option is not enough. Does separating gio-fam-backend by
original developers solve the problem better?

Alexey.
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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-14 Thread Mikhail Teterin
понеділок 14 квітень 2008 05:47 по, Kevin Oberman Ви написали:
> If the port existed in a version prior to the release of 2.22
> [...] grab the port from just before that

No, thanks. I want the most recent version /of the port/. And the port itself 
does not care, which version of GNOME it is built against -- it is happy, 
with /what I already have/ (earlier GNOME). Yet, I'm forced to upgrade, what 
I already have -- gratuicously...

 -mi

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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-14 Thread Kevin Oberman
> From: Mikhail Teterin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:18:56 -0400
> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> понеділок 14 квітень 2008 03:52 по, Dominic Fandrey Ви 
> написали:
> > > So, once again, I have to update half of my ports in order to add a new
> > > port to the system, that's happily functioning with the older version(s).
> >
> > Or you install sysutils/bsdadminscripts and run pkg_libchk to see which
> > ports actually require rebuilding.
> 
> NONE of them /require/ rebuilding, if I'm happy with the existing version. 
> Yet, I'm being forced to rebuild them so that I can add another piece of 
> software (which is also happy with the versions I already have) -- and I 
> don't like that at all...

If the port existed in a version prior to the release of 2.22 (see
/usr/ports/UPDATING for the date), grab the port from just before that
date. if your use csup or cvsup, you can do this by editing your
supfile to include a date and run csup/cvsup with the -i option.

It's really is not that hard, although it is a bit of work.
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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-14 Thread Mikhail Teterin
понеділок 14 квітень 2008 03:52 по, Dominic Fandrey Ви написали:
> > So, once again, I have to update half of my ports in order to add a new
> > port to the system, that's happily functioning with the older version(s).
>
> Or you install sysutils/bsdadminscripts and run pkg_libchk to see which
> ports actually require rebuilding.

NONE of them /require/ rebuilding, if I'm happy with the existing version. 
Yet, I'm being forced to rebuild them so that I can add another piece of 
software (which is also happy with the versions I already have) -- and I 
don't like that at all...

 -mi
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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-14 Thread Dominic Fandrey

Mikhail Teterin wrote:
So, once again, I have to update half of my ports in order to add a new port 
to the system, that's happily functioning with the older version(s).


Or you install sysutils/bsdadminscripts and run pkg_libchk to see which ports 
actually require rebuilding.

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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-14 Thread Jeremy Messenger

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:09:06 -0500, Jeremy Messenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:50:09 -0500, Alexey Shuvaev  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




IMHO gio-fam-backend should not be implicit dependency. Otherwise why
not to install all existing non-conflicting libraries just to ease
maintainer's life :->
FWIW x11-toolkits/gtkdatabox2 (PR 116120) do not need gio-fam-backend.


Well, all ports should depend on gio-fam-backend. The gio is included  
and part of glib20. marcus had to split gio out of glib20 package to  
avoid circle dependency of glib20 -> gamin (FAM replacement) -> glib20.  
If marcus doesn't split and you guys will have that gio library anyway.


Uh, I should have check in glib20 and gio-fam-backend before I made that  
comment. I thought that gio (libgio-2.0.so) is in gio-fam-backend, but not  
it's in glib20. The gio-fam-backend only installs libgiofam.so and FAM  
support is option in glib configure. I don't think it will be easy to make  
optional (maybe I am wrong) with that split. Remove gio-fam-backend  
dependency is going to hurt some users if they want some missing  
fuction(s) of it.



Cheers,
Mezz


Just my 0.02$,
Alexey.



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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-14 Thread Jeremy Messenger
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:50:09 -0500, Alexey Shuvaev  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




IMHO gio-fam-backend should not be implicit dependency. Otherwise why
not to install all existing non-conflicting libraries just to ease
maintainer's life :->
FWIW x11-toolkits/gtkdatabox2 (PR 116120) do not need gio-fam-backend.


Well, all ports should depend on gio-fam-backend. The gio is included and  
part of glib20. marcus had to split gio out of glib20 package to avoid  
circle dependency of glib20 -> gamin (FAM replacement) -> glib20. If  
marcus doesn't split and you guys will have that gio library anyway.


Cheers,
Mezz


Just my 0.02$,
Alexey.



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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-14 Thread Alexey Shuvaev
On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 05:59:09PM +0200, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 10:17:56PM -0400, Joe Marcus Clarke wrote:
> > gio-fam-backend is a new piece of glib which provides a wrapper around
> > FAM to allow applications to monitor file objects using a glib API.
> 
> But this is optional, right? Any reason for making gio-fam-backend an
> implicit dependency for all software, that depends on glib20?
> 
> On my systems, this means I will get gio-fam-backend installed even
> though I don't have FAM installed at all.
> 

Hello!

Just another vote against gio-fam-backend. I had have a quick look at
mailing lists archives and hadn't found any discussion about it
prior to commit. The point is thas gtk != gnome. Even more so glib != gnome.
Introducing gio-fam-backend as a dependency to glib automatically adds
it to the dependency lists of too many other (not gnome related) ports.

Personally I don't use neither gnome nor kde but I use gtk apps (gqview, gimp,
beep-media-player, mplayer, seamonkey, ...) and for now I have no FAM system
installed and I don't want any at all. I had some experience with FAM some
time ago when it was non-optional requirement for samba. Since then I don't
like FAM systems due to their 'viral' nature: many ports will auto-detect
and uncoditionally link with them. Sweeping FAM out of the system after
that is not straightforward process.

Another aspect is that FAM is not so critical for most apps (I believe).
With samba it is clear: samba wants to monitor its conf files
in order to apply changes immediately.
And what is the use of FAM for typical gui-user-application?
Any example of such app that really will not properly function without
gio-fam-backend?
(Well, I am sure there are such and gio-fam-backend
was made a dependency for glib not just for fun. But some examples
would not hurt anyone.)

Joe Marcus Clarke at Mon Mar 24 20:27:23 PDT 2008:
> Glib 2.16 (with GIO) was designed to support pluggable file monitor
> backends. Without one such backend, any libgio consumer would be
> severely handicapped. The only reason gio-fam-backend is broken out
> as a separate port is that we have one FAM provider that requires glib.
> If this was not the case, we'd just have glib20 depend on FAM.
^^^
  why glib?

> Recompiling alone is not sufficient. Ports will happily build
> without this backend, but may not run correctly if they require libgio.
> The cost of the FAM dependency
> is minimal (most GNOME apps already had this as part of gnome-vfs),
   ^^^  ^^^ ^^^
Well, gnome-vfs can really need FAM support. But then why not to add
gio-fam-backend as a dependency to gnome-vfs instead of glib?
If I understand things correctly one can install gio-fam-backend (which is
pluggable module) at any point provided glib is already installed. So moving
gio from glib to gnome-vfs will not only make gio-fam-backend more gnome
specific but also possibly remove the hack with _glib20.

> and it just makes things easier for developers not to have
> to worry about adding the gio-fam-backend dependency.

IMHO gio-fam-backend should not be implicit dependency. Otherwise why
not to install all existing non-conflicting libraries just to ease
maintainer's life :->
FWIW x11-toolkits/gtkdatabox2 (PR 116120) do not need gio-fam-backend.

Just my 0.02$,
Alexey.
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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-13 Thread Henrik Brix Andersen
On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 10:17:56PM -0400, Joe Marcus Clarke wrote:
> gio-fam-backend is a new piece of glib which provides a wrapper around
> FAM to allow applications to monitor file objects using a glib API.

But this is optional, right? Any reason for making gio-fam-backend an
implicit dependency for all software, that depends on glib20?

On my systems, this means I will get gio-fam-backend installed even
though I don't have FAM installed at all.

Brix
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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-09 Thread Mikhail Teterin
On вівторок 08 квітень 2008, Joe Marcus Clarke wrote:
= > I'm trying to build graphics/vips, which works. Then I try to install
= > it, and that suddenly requires devel/gio-fam-backend.
= 
= You need to follow the instructions in /usr/ports/UPDATING to upgrade
= all GNOME-related ports after GNOME 2.22 was merged.

So, once again, I have to update half of my ports in order to add a new port 
to the system, that's happily functioning with the older version(s).

This is not right... I ought to be able to use the older gnome to my heart's 
content, until a particular application begins to /require/ some new features 
of the new gnome.

= gio-fam-backend is a new piece of glib which provides a wrapper around
= FAM to allow applications to monitor file objects using a glib API.

Thanks for the details.

-mi
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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-08 Thread Gonzalo Nemmi
in my case it all started with a simple portupgrade firefox 
it all ended up with a _really_boring_ portupgrade -frR ..

---
Gonzalo Nemmi

On Tuesday 08 April 2008 22:43:06 Mikhail Teterin wrote:
> I'm trying to build graphics/vips, which works. Then I try to install
> it, and that suddenly requires devel/gio-fam-backend.
>
> Building that fails:
>
> ...
> cc -shared  .libs/libgiofam_la-fam-helper.o .libs/libgiofam_la-fam-module.o
> .libs/libgiofam_la-gfamdirectorymonitor.o
> .libs/libgiofam_la-gfamfilemonitor.o  -Wl,--rpath -Wl,/opt/lib -Wl,--rpath
> -Wl,/opt/lib -L/opt/lib /opt/lib/libintl.so -lgio-2.0
> /opt/lib/libgobject-2.0.so /opt/lib/libglib-2.0.so /opt/lib/libfam.so 
> -march=opteron -Wl,-soname -Wl,libgiofam.so -Wl,-retain-symbols-file
> -Wl,.libs/libgiofam.exp -o .libs/libgiofam.so /usr/bin/ld: cannot find
> -lgio-2.0
> gmake: *** [libgiofam.la] Помилка 1
>
> What's happening? Thanks!
>
>  -mi
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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-08 Thread Joe Marcus Clarke
On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 21:43 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote:
> I'm trying to build graphics/vips, which works. Then I try to install
> it, and that suddenly requires devel/gio-fam-backend.

You need to follow the instructions in /usr/ports/UPDATING to upgrade
all GNOME-related ports after GNOME 2.22 was merged.

gio-fam-backend is a new piece of glib which provides a wrapper around
FAM to allow applications to monitor file objects using a glib API.

Joe

> 
> Building that fails:
> 
> ...
> cc -shared  .libs/libgiofam_la-fam-helper.o .libs/libgiofam_la-fam-module.o 
> .libs/libgiofam_la-gfamdirectorymonitor.o 
> .libs/libgiofam_la-gfamfilemonitor.o  -Wl,--rpath -Wl,/opt/lib -Wl,--rpath 
> -Wl,/opt/lib -L/opt/lib /opt/lib/libintl.so -lgio-2.0 
> /opt/lib/libgobject-2.0.so /opt/lib/libglib-2.0.so /opt/lib/libfam.so  
> -march=opteron -Wl,-soname -Wl,libgiofam.so -Wl,-retain-symbols-file 
> -Wl,.libs/libgiofam.exp -o .libs/libgiofam.so
> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgio-2.0
> gmake: *** [libgiofam.la] Помилка 1
> 
> What's happening? Thanks!
> 
>  -mi
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Re: what is gio-fam?

2008-04-08 Thread Edwin Groothuis
On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 09:43:06PM -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote:
> I'm trying to build graphics/vips, which works. Then I try to install
> it, and that suddenly requires devel/gio-fam-backend.

Got the same here, doing a full rebuild of the jail to figure out
if it is just a dependency which has gone wrong.

Edwin

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what is gio-fam?

2008-04-08 Thread Mikhail Teterin
I'm trying to build graphics/vips, which works. Then I try to install
it, and that suddenly requires devel/gio-fam-backend.

Building that fails:

...
cc -shared  .libs/libgiofam_la-fam-helper.o .libs/libgiofam_la-fam-module.o 
.libs/libgiofam_la-gfamdirectorymonitor.o .libs/libgiofam_la-gfamfilemonitor.o  
-Wl,--rpath -Wl,/opt/lib -Wl,--rpath -Wl,/opt/lib -L/opt/lib 
/opt/lib/libintl.so -lgio-2.0 /opt/lib/libgobject-2.0.so 
/opt/lib/libglib-2.0.so /opt/lib/libfam.so  -march=opteron -Wl,-soname 
-Wl,libgiofam.so -Wl,-retain-symbols-file -Wl,.libs/libgiofam.exp -o 
.libs/libgiofam.so
/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgio-2.0
gmake: *** [libgiofam.la] Помилка 1

What's happening? Thanks!

 -mi
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