among my favorite equations....
if anybody had OOO math 3.0.1 installed, they can see one of my favoriite equations. :-) -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 2.41a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Equations
On 2007-10-06 08:50, Frank Jahnke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2007-10-06 at 12:22 +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: Since the first releases of TeX, there have been many interesting developments about font-handling in the TeX world, like the typeface definitions of ConTeXt, and the drop-in packages of LaTeX which allow one to use Palatino, Helvetica, and other classic fonts. I figured this was the case, and it makes a difference. This is OT, but do you have a link that describe what font families are available? I assume the Postscript base set is easy. But how about the others? Continuing the OT, it is also interesting that the desktop publishing applications that I am aware of (an that is certainly incomplete) do not handle equations very well either. Scribus didn't the last time I looked; Frame might but that is not really an option. ConTeXt includes several pre-defined `typescripts'. If you want to read more details about fonts in ConTeXt, then the wiki of ConTeXt may be useful; especially the pages: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Fonts http://wiki.contextgarden.net/TypeScripts One of the examples which I like a lot is the installation of `Lucida' fonts in ConTeXt: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Lucida The font installation instructions use Windows-like pathnames, but they are easy to translate to `Unix-speak' too :-) To answer the original questions: ``what font families are available?'' ``I assume the Postscript base set is easy.'' There are several typescripts available as predefined typescripts in ConTeXt. A nice demo of these typescripts in action can be found at: http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/showfont.pdf This example PDF includes a typescript demo which uses the standard PostScript(TM) fonts (Times, Courier, and Helvetica) too :-) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations
On 2007-10-05 15:03, Frank Jahnke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 23:34 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am always a bit surprised that TeX was released in 78 (before my birth!) and---despite its algorithms are published---its output quality remains unmatched [1] by common programs. Why these programs do not apply TeX's strategies to solve their problems? This makes me wonder. This is a good question. TeX didn't really hit its stride until about 1989 (with Metafont and the language freeze), and the effort learned a lot from troff. Nevertheless, I am always struck by how ugly is the type that Word produces. You can always tell. I've read about how sophisticated its algorithm for this or that is, but the end result is terribly inferior to both troff and TeX. I don't really know why -- and it extends beyond the hyphenation algorithm to things like inter-word kerning and type face formation -- but I just don't like the way Word documents look. Maybe one of these days I'll look into it. I also find the insistence of the TeX community to use the dreadful CM font family to be misguided. There's a reason that the classical fonts are classics. As far as journals are concerned, I think the insistence about CM fonts is usually an attempt to keep the original style of the journal, and not so much a lack of respect for the beauty of classic font families. Since the first releases of TeX, there have been many interesting developments about font-handling in the TeX world, like the typeface definitions of ConTeXt, and the drop-in packages of LaTeX which allow one to use Palatino, Helvetica, and other classic fonts. This is getting off-topic for the original topic, but I learnt something new (about the LyX wiki), so -- at least for me -- it was worth it :) Giorgos ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations
On Sat, 2007-10-06 at 12:22 +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: Since the first releases of TeX, there have been many interesting developments about font-handling in the TeX world, like the typeface definitions of ConTeXt, and the drop-in packages of LaTeX which allow one to use Palatino, Helvetica, and other classic fonts. I figured this was the case, and it makes a difference. This is OT, but do you have a link that describe what font families are available? I assume the Postscript base set is easy. But how about the others? Continuing the OT, it is also interesting that the desktop publishing applications that I am aware of (an that is certainly incomplete) do not handle equations very well either. Scribus didn't the last time I looked; Frame might but that is not really an option. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations
Frank Jahnke wrote: I figured this was the case, and it makes a difference. This is OT, but do you have a link that describe what font families are available? I assume the Postscript base set is easy. But how about the others? There is an entire fat book devoted to that: Fonts Encodings by Yannis Haralambous O'Reilly Using any type1 or ttf fonts is very easy as long as no formulas are involved. If formulas have to be typed using a font in harmony with the text, then it becomes quite difficult to produce the necessary virtual fonts. This is certainly a drawback of TeX. By the way, in my academic domain, all scientists worldwide use TeX, and not a single one use Word. One of the reasons is that people publish their work here: http://arxiv.org/ and submissions have to be in TeX and not Word. Similarly journals accept submissions in TeX since they have minor editorial work to do afterwards. Scientists in other domains would be well inspired to do the same. This being said, this question doesn't have much relevance to FreeBSD. -- Michel TALON ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations
At 22:17 06/10/2007, Michel Talon wrote: Frank Jahnke wrote: I figured this was the case, and it makes a difference. This is OT, but .. accept submissions in TeX since they have minor editorial work to do -- Excuse me for the intromision, but i'm reading this thread, waiting for a tiny and easy app (no tex,troff,...) that can do equations as the first message said. Can i think that there is no such app? Thanks. -- This document represent my ideas. They are mine, so, if you agree me, PAY ME. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations
Eduardo Morras said: Excuse me for the intromision, but i'm reading this thread, waiting for a tiny and easy app (no tex,troff,...) that can do equations as the first message said. Can i think that there is no such app? There may be some under Windows, but i don't know. Under Unix machines i don't know anything easier (*) than TeX. For an introduction to students i have tried the OpenOffice equation editor, it is quite similar (hence as easy or difficult) to the things you type in TeX, except it has far less possibilities and does a poor job of formatting. People say me that the Word equation editor is even worse. By the way, there is a Java program which transforms OpenOffice equations (and text) into TeX source (writer2latex), but unfortunately i don't see anything of reasonable quality to do the converse. (*) There is a GUI tool which is supposed to ease typing TeX formulas, because you see them a you type, it is LyX. I have never found it very intuitive. There is also a mode for emacs which has partly such functionality. And finally there is more radical departure from Latex than LyX which is Texmacs (beware, it needs a powerful machine). Maybe some day it will evolve into an easy to use scientific editor. At the moment, i have found that using an helping tool like kile or texmaker (this one exists for Windows) allows students who have never seen TeX previously to type scientific texts with equations in less than a day in plain Latex. With troff i have zero experience. -- Michel TALON ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Equations (WAS: good replacement for open office)
Since you seem to use the equation feature quite intensively, maybe you have any clue on making the equation editor perform better. Sorry I can't really be of much help with OO.o equations. What I do personally is a kludge, but it works well enough. For documents that I create for read-only use, I use groff and friends. For those that require collaboration, I use Wordperfect to create the equations (it has an equation mode like troff's eqn), export them into Word format, and then read them into Word. The equation mode in Word is crippled, and you need to purchase MathType (I think that is the name) to make it usable. The same goes for references, BTW: you really need to purchase an add-on to make Word usable. In troff I just use refer together with Refbase. I've just not had much luck with OO.o's equation mode. If often crashes Word, and since all the people I collaborate with use Word, well, I use Word rather than try to teach them troff (or TeX). While they are all top-flight scientists and engineers at major US research Universities, their computer literacy is surprisingly low. I've given up on trying to find a BSD or Linux program that is good enough for this purpose -- none really are. So I just use Word in a VM and am done with it. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations (WAS: good replacement for open office)
On 10/5/07, Frank Jahnke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since you seem to use the equation feature quite intensively, maybe you have any clue on making the equation editor perform better. Sorry I can't really be of much help with OO.o equations. What I do personally is a kludge, but it works well enough. For documents that I create for read-only use, I use groff and friends. For those that require collaboration, I use Wordperfect to create the equations (it has an equation mode like troff's eqn), export them into Word format, and then read them into Word. The equation mode in Word is crippled, and you need to purchase MathType (I think that is the name) to make it usable. The same goes for references, BTW: you really need to purchase an add-on to make Word usable. In troff I just use refer together with Refbase. I've just not had much luck with OO.o's equation mode. If often crashes Word, and since all the people I collaborate with use Word, well, I use Word rather than try to teach them troff (or TeX). While they are all top-flight scientists and engineers at major US research Universities, their computer literacy is surprisingly low. I've given up on trying to find a BSD or Linux program that is good enough for this purpose -- none really are. So I just use Word in a VM and am done with it. Have you tried LyX? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations (WAS: good replacement for open office)
On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 12:34:00PM -0500, Andrew Gould wrote: On 10/5/07, Frank Jahnke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've given up on trying to find a BSD or Linux program that is good enough for this purpose -- none really are. So I just use Word in a VM and am done with it. Have you tried LyX? I think this purpose, in this case, means collaborating with people using MS Word. That being the case, LyX is sort of the opposite of what he needs, even if it handles equation work excellently for print -- because, of course, it *doesn't* handle MS Word DOC format at all. At least, it didn't the last time I checked. I imagine the LyX maintainers haven't suddenly jumped on the interoperate with MS Office bandwagon lately. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] Brian K. Reid: In computer science, we stand on each other's feet. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations (WAS: good replacement for open office)
On 10/4/07, Chad Perrin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 12:34:00PM -0500, Andrew Gould wrote: On 10/5/07, Frank Jahnke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've given up on trying to find a BSD or Linux program that is good enough for this purpose -- none really are. So I just use Word in a VM and am done with it. Have you tried LyX? I think this purpose, in this case, means collaborating with people using MS Word. That being the case, LyX is sort of the opposite of what he needs, even if it handles equation work excellently for print -- because, of course, it *doesn't* handle MS Word DOC format at all. At least, it didn't the last time I checked. I imagine the LyX maintainers haven't suddenly jumped on the interoperate with MS Office bandwagon lately. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] Brian K. Reid: In computer science, we stand on each other's feet. You are so right about that. I saw equations in the subject line and jumped a little to quickly. ;-) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations (WAS: good replacement for open office)
Word rather than try to teach them troff (or TeX). While they are all i'm not top-flight scientist but i was able to learn latex... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations (WAS: good replacement for open office)
On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 20:13 +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: Word rather than try to teach them troff (or TeX). While they are all i'm not top-flight scientist but i was able to learn latex... That may be true, but trust me, the faculty with whom I work just would not do it. No way, no how, never. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations (WAS: good replacement for open office)
On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 12:34 -0500, Andrew Gould wrote: Have you tried LyX? I'm aware of it, and will indeed try it one of these days, but that is not the issue. I'm fine with troff -- I've used it for so many years that I can get it to jump through hoops. Time has passed it by, though, so moving to TeX (or LaTeX or Lyx) one of these days is probably a good idea. The issue is the skill of the people with whom I collaborate, and their inclination to change. They won't, at least not for me alone. This is not a battle worth fighting. You are of course welcomed to disagree for your own case. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations
Frank Jahnke [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Since you seem to use the equation feature quite intensively, maybe you have any clue on making the equation editor perform better. Sorry I can't really be of much help with OO.o equations. What I do personally is a kludge, but it works well enough. For ... Thank you for your nice answer. It seems there is no reason to be optimistic about the existence of an ``office-like'' program that deals smartly with equations. I am always a bit surprised that TeX was released in 78 (before my birth!) and---despite its algorithms are published---its output quality remains unmatched [1] by common programs. Why these programs do not apply TeX's strategies to solve their problems? This makes me wonder. [1] Lyx was mentioned elsethread, on the project's website I found a text example processed by TeX and Word. The text is four pages long, the columns ist not especially narrow. To prepare this text, Word needs 8 word hyphenations in the first page, with three of them in a row (which is very bad). In the TeX processed version, theres is only two word hyphenations in the whole document. WWW: http://wiki.lyx.org/Examples/ComparingLyXAndWord This is not a definite proof that TeX's output quality remains unmatched, but just an example. -- Cheers, Michaël ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations
On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 23:34 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems there is no reason to be optimistic about the existence of an ``office-like'' program that deals smartly with equations. The input method from MathType (which is what WP uses) actually is quite good. The formatting, however... I am always a bit surprised that TeX was released in 78 (before my birth!) and---despite its algorithms are published---its output quality remains unmatched [1] by common programs. Why these programs do not apply TeX's strategies to solve their problems? This makes me wonder. This is a good question. TeX didn't really hit its stride until about 1989 (with Metafont and the language freeze), and the effort learned a lot from troff. Nevertheless, I am always struck by how ugly is the type that Word produces. You can always tell. I've read about how sophisticated its algorithm for this or that is, but the end result is terribly inferior to both troff and TeX. I don't really know why -- and it extends beyond the hyphenation algorithm to things like inter-word kerning and type face formation -- but I just don't like the way Word documents look. Maybe one of these days I'll look into it. I also find the insistence of the TeX community to use the dreadful CM font family to be misguided. There's a reason that the classical fonts are classics. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations
On Fri, Oct 05, 2007, Frank Jahnke wrote: On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 23:34 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems there is no reason to be optimistic about the existence of an ``office-like'' program that deals smartly with equations. The input method from MathType (which is what WP uses) actually is quite good. The formatting, however... I am always a bit surprised that TeX was released in 78 (before my birth!) and---despite its algorithms are published---its output quality remains unmatched [1] by common programs. Why these programs do not apply TeX's strategies to solve their problems? This makes me wonder. This is a good question. TeX didn't really hit its stride until about 1989 (with Metafont and the language freeze), and the effort learned a lot from troff. Nevertheless, I am always struck by how ugly is the type that Word produces. You can always tell. I've read about how sophisticated its algorithm for this or that is, but the end result is terribly inferior to both troff and TeX. I don't really know why -- and it extends beyond the hyphenation algorithm to things like inter-word kerning and type face formation -- but I just don't like the way Word documents look. Maybe one of these days I'll look into it. I also find the insistence of the TeX community to use the dreadful CM font family to be misguided. There's a reason that the classical fonts are classics. Donald Knuth's objective writing TeX was to ``write pretty books'', and he spent years on this project. There's a big difference between sophisticated typesetting programs such as TeX and groff, and word processors. TeX and ?roff were designed to do major, professional quality, publishing projects by people who understood the intricacies of page design and layout. One of the first people I met who used TeX extensively was an adjunct professor of computer science at the University of Washington. Pierre used TeX on a Sun workstation to typeset Arabic and Sanskrit. This was in 1984. Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC URL: http://www.celestial.com/ PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 More laws, less justice. -- Marcus Tulius Ciceroca (42 BD) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Equations
On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 03:37:11PM -0700, Bill Campbell wrote: There's a big difference between sophisticated typesetting programs such as TeX and groff, and word processors. TeX and ?roff were designed to do major, professional quality, publishing projects by people who understood the intricacies of page design and layout. . . . while word processors are a least common denominator application designed to be everything to everyone, but ultimately end up being very little to anyone, because they're worse than layout and typesetting programs at producing print documents and worse than digital presentation design and semantic formatting systems at producing electronic (aka online) documents. Somehow, though, they've ended up being the single most commonly used form of document generation software today. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] Marvin Minsky: It's just incredible that a trillion-synapse computer could actually spend Saturday afternoon watching a football game. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
