Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Sat, Jun 06, 2009 at 02:05:39PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar typed: rsync isn't bloated and it's well written IMO. It still does only one job, and it does it well. As you say, most common tasks can still be done with only short options. This would change if some developer decided to add other, unrelated functionality. But that's harder if you want to maintain short options for the common tasks. Having only long options would place no such restrictions on bloating. what program you mean about having only long options? Wasn't referring to any particular program's. mplayer is an example though. But that's not my point. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 11:08:23PM -0500, Kirk Strauser typed: Chris Rees wrote: Traditional: % tar xzvf bluurgh.tgz GNU recommended: $ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz Seriously, why are long options encouraged? Scripting. I almost always use long options when writing scripts I might use again later so that 6 months later I don't have to remember what some single-letter option meant. I pretty much never use them on the command line, though. Agreed, the long options *as an alternative* can be descriptive in scripts, tutorials, howto's etc. The other reason often mentioned, there being not enough letters in the alphabet to cover all possible options, in my opinion advocates bloated software (one program can do it all), which goes against the Unix paradigm of making small programs that do one task exceptionally well and just chaining these together. Ruben ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
what some single-letter option meant. I pretty much never use them on the command line, though. Agreed, the long options *as an alternative* can be descriptive in scripts, tutorials, howto's etc. The other reason often mentioned, there being not enough letters in the alphabet to cover all possible options, in my opinion advocates bloated software (one program can do it all), which goes against the Unix paradigm of making small programs that do one task exceptionally well and just chaining these together. you exaggerate a bit. for example rsync does have 26 options but most make sense for program that is dedicated to one task, and it isn't against Unix paradigm. But it have one letter shortcuts for mostly used parameters ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Sat, Jun 06, 2009 at 11:49:51AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar typed: what some single-letter option meant. I pretty much never use them on the command line, though. Agreed, the long options *as an alternative* can be descriptive in scripts, tutorials, howto's etc. The other reason often mentioned, there being not enough letters in the alphabet to cover all possible options, in my opinion advocates bloated software (one program can do it all), which goes against the Unix paradigm of making small programs that do one task exceptionally well and just chaining these together. you exaggerate a bit. Maybe :) for example rsync does have 26 options but most make sense for program that is dedicated to one task, and it isn't against Unix paradigm. rsync isn't bloated and it's well written IMO. It still does only one job, and it does it well. As you say, most common tasks can still be done with only short options. This would change if some developer decided to add other, unrelated functionality. But that's harder if you want to maintain short options for the common tasks. Having only long options would place no such restrictions on bloating. Ruben ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
rsync isn't bloated and it's well written IMO. It still does only one job, and it does it well. As you say, most common tasks can still be done with only short options. This would change if some developer decided to add other, unrelated functionality. But that's harder if you want to maintain short options for the common tasks. Having only long options would place no such restrictions on bloating. what program you mean about having only long options? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
2009/6/6 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl: what some single-letter option meant. I pretty much never use them on the command line, though. Agreed, the long options *as an alternative* can be descriptive in scripts, tutorials, howto's etc. The other reason often mentioned, there being not enough letters in the alphabet to cover all possible options, in my opinion advocates bloated software (one program can do it all), which goes against the Unix paradigm of making small programs that do one task exceptionally well and just chaining these together. you exaggerate a bit. for example rsync does have 26 options but most make sense for program that is dedicated to one task, and it isn't against Unix paradigm. But it have one letter shortcuts for mostly used parameters Can I be picky and point out it's actually 52 short options? [ch...@amnesiac]~% ls -f quantumdot mailcromwell_1024.bin.gz public_html bnreg amnesiackey.pub backup.sh.gzcromwell.bin.gz check-portupgrade.pl why.c teamspeak [ch...@amnesiac]~% ls -F amnesiackey.pub cromwell.bin.gz quantumdot/ backup.sh.gzcromwell_1024.bin.gzteamspeak/ bnreg/ mail/ why.c check-portupgrade.plpublic_html/ [ch...@amnesiac]~% for just one example Chris -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On 6/6/09, Chris Rees utis...@googlemail.com wrote: 2009/6/6 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl: what some single-letter option meant. I pretty much never use them on the command line, though. Agreed, the long options *as an alternative* can be descriptive in scripts, tutorials, howto's etc. The other reason often mentioned, there being not enough letters in the alphabet to cover all possible options, in my opinion advocates bloated software (one program can do it all), which goes against the Unix paradigm of making small programs that do one task exceptionally well and just chaining these together. you exaggerate a bit. for example rsync does have 26 options but most make sense for program that is dedicated to one task, and it isn't against Unix paradigm. But it have one letter shortcuts for mostly used parameters Can I be picky and point out it's actually 52 short options? [ch...@amnesiac]~% ls -f quantumdot mailcromwell_1024.bin.gz public_html bnreg amnesiackey.pub backup.sh.gzcromwell.bin.gz check-portupgrade.pl why.c teamspeak [ch...@amnesiac]~% ls -F amnesiackey.pub cromwell.bin.gz quantumdot/ backup.sh.gzcromwell_1024.bin.gzteamspeak/ bnreg/ mail/ why.c check-portupgrade.plpublic_html/ [ch...@amnesiac]~% for just one example Chris and digits add another 10. We're up to 62 single-character options. I'm sure punctuation will be next. dig www.google.com @192.168.0.1 OK, so now where does that leave us? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 11:16:05PM +0200, Polytropon wrote: On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:00:06 -0400, Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu wrote: Yes, I know. That is why some other additional for is also useful. I don't really propose changing man, but do often wish for some other form. Many programs contain an EXAMPLES section in the man page. Further documentation often is supplied in /usr/local/share/doc and /usr/local/share/examples - available locally. my take of the idea of man pages is simple: they serve as a concise summary of a program you already know. maybe you've forgotten a 'w' flag or switch. otherwise, a number of examples are worth ten thousand words. the gotcha is that examples take a lot of skill... . and, yes, the better programs with man pages do have examples! gary -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org For FBSD list: http://transfinite.thought.org/slicejourney.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Thursday 04 June 2009 04:17:56 pm Chris Rees wrote: Info is horrible to use as a quick reference, because as Polytropon said earlier, you can't just dive in to get something specific. The info is split into (arbitrary) sections, through which you have to tread, and jump around hyperlinks all over. In fairness, a good info browser (eg Emacs) makes searching in an info doc trivially easy. I think the biggest problem is that /usr/bin/info is horrid and people lump their impression of it onto their impression of info docs as a whole. -- Kirk Strauser ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
2009/6/5 Kirk Strauser k...@strauser.com: On Thursday 04 June 2009 04:17:56 pm Chris Rees wrote: Info is horrible to use as a quick reference, because as Polytropon said earlier, you can't just dive in to get something specific. The info is split into (arbitrary) sections, through which you have to tread, and jump around hyperlinks all over. In fairness, a good info browser (eg Emacs) makes searching in an info doc trivially easy. I think the biggest problem is that /usr/bin/info is horrid and people lump their impression of it onto their impression of info docs as a whole. -- Kirk Strauser Is there a 'quick' way to use emacs instead of info? Like info-emacs topic? I've remembered why I hate the info browser so much; it reminds me of the 'help' included with MS-DOS 6.22. Anyone remember that? Chris -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Friday 05 June 2009 11:50:58 am Chris Rees wrote: Is there a 'quick' way to use emacs instead of info? Like info-emacs topic? Not that I know of. :-/ I've remembered why I hate the info browser so much; it reminds me of the 'help' included with MS-DOS 6.22. Anyone remember that? Ouch. You had to go there, didn't you? -- Kirk Strauser ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
2009/6/5 Kirk Strauser k...@strauser.com: On Friday 05 June 2009 11:50:58 am Chris Rees wrote: Is there a 'quick' way to use emacs instead of info? Like info-emacs topic? Not that I know of. :-/ I've remembered why I hate the info browser so much; it reminds me of the 'help' included with MS-DOS 6.22. Anyone remember that? Ouch. You had to go there, didn't you? I feel GNU is very similar in many ways to DOS, along with their preference for 'long options'. Horrible. You end up with monstrosities of commands. Traditional: % tar xzvf bluurgh.tgz GNU recommended: $ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz Seriously, why are long options encouraged? Chris -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 13:23, Chris Rees utis...@googlemail.com wrote: 2009/6/5 Kirk Strauser k...@strauser.com: On Friday 05 June 2009 11:50:58 am Chris Rees wrote: Is there a 'quick' way to use emacs instead of info? Like info-emacs topic? Not that I know of. :-/ I've remembered why I hate the info browser so much; it reminds me of the 'help' included with MS-DOS 6.22. Anyone remember that? Ouch. You had to go there, didn't you? I feel GNU is very similar in many ways to DOS, along with their preference for 'long options'. Horrible. You end up with monstrosities of commands. Traditional: % tar xzvf bluurgh.tgz GNU recommended: $ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz Seriously, why are long options encouraged? At a guess? Probably because it allows more options for the command line, and more easily read options, too. Kurt ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 09:23:06PM +0100, Chris Rees wrote: Seriously, why are long options encouraged? Some programs simply have a lot of options, and after a dozen or so, a single letter loses its mnemonic value. X applications have been using long options for 20 years - long enough to get used to the notion. -- Thomas E. Dickey http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
GNU recommended: $ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz Seriously, why are long options encouraged? there are people that like to write a lot? ;) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 10:49:19PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: GNU recommended: $ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz Seriously, why are long options encouraged? there are people that like to write a lot? ;) no..., otherwise the people generating this thread would cite realistic examples, rather than writing a lot. -- Thomas E. Dickey http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
2009/6/5 Thomas Dickey dic...@radix.net: On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 10:49:19PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: GNU recommended: $ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz Seriously, why are long options encouraged? there are people that like to write a lot? ;) no..., otherwise the people generating this thread would cite realistic examples, rather than writing a lot. The point I was trying to make (badly), was that long options are a PITA to type. I don't believe it's any easier to learn the long names for options than the short ones. Since you're typing huge amounts of text quickly, you're more likely to make mistakes, and you'll probably forget them anyway. So, instead of looking up short options in the man page, I am then reduced to riffling through the info tome, to find the long option that I've forgotten. No really, I do forget long options. A lot. Chris -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 10:11:00PM +0100, Chris Rees wrote: The point I was trying to make (badly), was that long options are a PITA to type. I don't believe it's any easier to learn the long names for options than the short ones. Since you're typing huge amounts of text quickly, you're more likely to make mistakes, and you'll probably forget them anyway. One can have long options in a user-friendly way (some implementors choose to allow them to be abbreviated; some environments do name-completion). As I'm editing this remark, for example, I'm using a text editor that does name-completion (a good thing since it has several hundred commands, which can each be bound to a single character, etc). -- Thomas E. Dickey http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net pgpaYBJpO4PDX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
Chris Rees wrote: Traditional: % tar xzvf bluurgh.tgz GNU recommended: $ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz Seriously, why are long options encouraged? Scripting. I almost always use long options when writing scripts I might use again later so that 6 months later I don't have to remember what some single-letter option meant. I pretty much never use them on the command line, though. -- Kirk Strauser ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
Ignore him please. because? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
2009/6/4 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl: Ignore him please. because? The FreeBSD project still uses man pages as the principle form of documentation. Texinfo is for GNU projects. Try 'info tar' on a BSD system, you'll get the man page. Chris -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
because? The FreeBSD project still uses man pages as the principle form of documentation. Texinfo is for GNU projects. Try 'info tar' on a BSD system, you'll get the man page. indeed. But i was talking about how linux looks. Forgot to read all - as usual? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
2009/6/4 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl: because? The FreeBSD project still uses man pages as the principle form of documentation. Texinfo is for GNU projects. Try 'info tar' on a BSD system, you'll get the man page. indeed. But i was talking about how linux looks. Forgot to read all - as usual? As usual? Beg pardon, would you care to point out where I've done that before? I'd imagine he's also talking about the Handbook, and the fact that man pages are infinitely easier to read and get useful information out of than texinfo pages. Perhaps your emails would be easier to read if they weren't so rushed. Perhaps explain what you mean rather than copy-pasting from somewhere, or even worse, typing it WRONG from memory? Chris -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Thursday 04 June 2009 08:28:08 am Chris Rees wrote: Perhaps your emails would be easier to read if they weren't so rushed. I think that's the problem. After re-reading his email, I think I can see how he meant it to refer to the state of Linux's documentation and not FreeBSD's, but I really had to go looking for that interpretation. -- Kirk Strauser ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:23:34 +0100, Chris Rees utis...@googlemail.com wrote: The FreeBSD project still uses man pages as the principle form of documentation. Sorry I brought up this topic... I don't think manpages are bad, I cosider them THE BEST SOLUTION for local documentation, so I don't think your use of the word still is well placed here. It should be The FreeBSD project uses man pages [...] - not still, which reads like The FreeBSD project still uses those old fashioned man pages, but will abandon them soon in favour of a GUI-driven help system that is used via Internet. :-) As a programmer, FreeBSD's documentation - beginning with the manpages, furthermore including the FAQ and the handbook, and finally the source code as well - is the most excellent kind of documentation I've seen so far. Returning to the manpages, they cover everything: Binaries, file formats, maintenance procedures, kernel interfaces, library calls... nothing important is missing. If you have a problem with foo, you simply enter man foo to get more info about it. This is a situation you won't find in modern Linusi, and sadly, as well in modern applications on FreeBSD, mostly those that are GUI driven. Try to find manpages for some program from the KDE project. In opposite, try man mplayer or man xmms, and, there's even man opera, but no man firefox. In those cases where there's no manpage, users are usually redirected to some web forum, Wiki, or encouraged to write the documentation on their own. :-) I think Wojciech just had the same observation. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
It should be The FreeBSD project uses man pages [...] - not still, which reads like The FreeBSD project still uses those old fashioned man pages, but will abandon them soon in favour of a GUI-driven help system that is used via Internet. :-) are you sure it won't? at least i wish so, as most old fashioned software solutions are best. Returning to the manpages, putting it simply it works properly here. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
2009/6/4 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl: Polytropon wrote: It should be The FreeBSD project uses man pages [...] - not still, which reads like The FreeBSD project still uses those old fashioned man pages, but will abandon them soon in favour of a GUI-driven help system that is used via Internet. :-) are you sure it won't? at least i wish so, as most old fashioned software solutions are best. Returning to the manpages, putting it simply it works properly here. Er, yeah, i think man pages are the best solution too, and I apologise for appearing to look down on them. I can't *stand* info manuals, they're clunky and bloated. Also, I meant principal form, not principle. Sorry! Chris PS Does _anyone_ prefer info manuals, apart from Stallman? -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Thursday 04 June 2009 11:20:24 am Chris Rees wrote: PS Does _anyone_ prefer info manuals, apart from Stallman? I like them *in their place*. Can you imagine how long the man page for GCC would be? IMHO, though, info pages are only tolerable within Emacs. -- Kirk Strauser ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
PS Does _anyone_ prefer info manuals, apart from Stallman? I don't, it's much easier to just type man something than browsing through big document ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 05:20:24PM +0100, Chris Rees wrote: Er, yeah, i think man pages are the best solution too, and I apologise for appearing to look down on them. I can't *stand* info manuals, they're clunky and bloated. Chris PS Does _anyone_ prefer info manuals, apart from Stallman? Well, man pages are good at formally documenting the how of use, but they often are not so helpful on the why and wherefor of use. Sometimes info manuals add a little for that. But, that is more of a content issue than a form issue. Man pages could easily be more forthcoming on the why and wherefor concepts. jerry -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
PS Does _anyone_ prefer info manuals, apart from Stallman? Well, man pages are good at formally documenting the how of use, but they often are not so helpful on the why and wherefor of use. for me it's exactly for this - to know how and why to use. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:21:01 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: PS Does _anyone_ prefer info manuals, apart from Stallman? I don't, it's much easier to just type man something than browsing through big document As far as I know, info doesn't let you search document-wide (including all subsections, branches and crossreferences) while man documents - being ONE document - let's you do this. Furthermore, it's quite easy to turn a a manpage into a nice looking PS / PDF file for printing and archiving. zcat `man -w COMMAND` | groff -Tps -dpaper=a4 -P-pa4 -mandoc | ps2pdf - man.pdf I'm not sure you can do this with info based manuals... -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
Wojciech Puchar writes: Well, man pages are good at formally documenting the how of use, but they often are not so helpful on the why and wherefor of use. for me it's exactly for this - to know how and why to use. It is important to understand man is a _reference_, not a _tutorial_. It's great if you need to refresh your memory of the q flag, or check for exit codes, or check the order of parameters to the _fillintheblank() library call. But if you're trying to figure out how to do X, or even how to do X correctly using this object ... many of the pages can leave you with the feeling you're stupider than you actually are. Being a tutorial may not be what man was designed for. But until there's a designated and widely promoted text-only replacement it will be used as one. Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
2009/6/4 Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu: On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 04:17:43PM -0400, Robert Huff wrote: Wojciech Puchar writes: Well, man pages are good at formally documenting the how of use, but they often are not so helpful on the why and wherefor of use. for me it's exactly for this - to know how and why to use. It is important to understand man is a _reference_, not a _tutorial_. It's great if you need to refresh your memory of the Yes, I know. That is why some other additional for is also useful. I don't really propose changing man, but do often wish for some other form. Info does that a little, but still is often inadequate for some comprehension of the why and wherefor of something that I have never mucked with. I am not sure a 'tutorial' is it either because they tend to take a person through a couple of particular tasks using the item in question, but still not discuss much of the why and wherefor. jerry q flag, or check for exit codes, or check the order of parameters to the _fillintheblank() library call. But if you're trying to figure out how to do X, or even how to do X correctly using this object ... many of the pages can leave you with the feeling you're stupider than you actually are. Being a tutorial may not be what man was designed for. But until there's a designated and widely promoted text-only replacement it will be used as one. Robert Huff Info is horrible to use as a quick reference, because as Polytropon said earlier, you can't just dive in to get something specific. The info is split into (arbitrary) sections, through which you have to tread, and jump around hyperlinks all over. But then I've never really got on with lynx, either. Chris -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
It is important to understand man is a _reference_, not a _tutorial_. It's great if you need to refresh your memory of the Handbook is a tutorial. And looking at files in /bin, /sbin/ etc.. and doing man was my way of learning unix years ago. to the _fillintheblank() library call. But if you're trying to figure out how to do X, or even how to do X correctly using this object ... many of the pages can leave you with the feeling you're stupider than you actually are. man Xorg man xorg.conf what's wrong? until there's a designated and widely promoted text-only replacement text-only is important. Xorg is not part of FreeBSD, not always work, may be not wanted in many cases and finally .. there are no need for any graphics to read text ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
I am not sure a 'tutorial' is it either because they tend to take a person through a couple of particular tasks using the item in question, but still not discuss much of the why and wherefor. What's wrong in FreeBSD handbook and many different paper books available about unix? Actually not that many, but still there are available about design of unix. There is no need for FreeBSD book as long as books about unix exists, and there is FreeBSD handbook. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
What's wrong in FreeBSD handbook and many different paper books available about unix? Actually not that many, but still there are available about design of unix. FreeBSD is really much more than the base OS. Even though it is divided in to base and ports, it is really all of them together. port subsystem, but not ported programs. The same way as eg. Corel Draw isn't part of micro-soft windows ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 04:17:43PM -0400, Robert Huff wrote: Wojciech Puchar writes: Well, man pages are good at formally documenting the how of use, but they often are not so helpful on the why and wherefor of use. for me it's exactly for this - to know how and why to use. It is important to understand man is a _reference_, not a _tutorial_. It's great if you need to refresh your memory of the Yes, I know. That is why some other additional for is also useful. I don't really propose changing man, but do often wish for some other form. Info does that a little, but still is often inadequate for some comprehension of the why and wherefor of something that I have never mucked with. I am not sure a 'tutorial' is it either because they tend to take a person through a couple of particular tasks using the item in question, but still not discuss much of the why and wherefor. jerry q flag, or check for exit codes, or check the order of parameters to the _fillintheblank() library call. But if you're trying to figure out how to do X, or even how to do X correctly using this object ... many of the pages can leave you with the feeling you're stupider than you actually are. Being a tutorial may not be what man was designed for. But until there's a designated and widely promoted text-only replacement it will be used as one. Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:00:06 -0400, Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu wrote: Yes, I know. That is why some other additional for is also useful. I don't really propose changing man, but do often wish for some other form. Many programs contain an EXAMPLES section in the man page. Further documentation often is supplied in /usr/local/share/doc and /usr/local/share/examples - available locally. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 11:16:05PM +0200, Polytropon wrote: On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:00:06 -0400, Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu wrote: Yes, I know. That is why some other additional for is also useful. I don't really propose changing man, but do often wish for some other form. Many programs contain an EXAMPLES section in the man page. Further documentation often is supplied in /usr/local/share/doc and /usr/local/share/examples - available locally. Something that is helpful in understanding the formal language of the man page, and should be done more. But it is not quite a why and wherefor. jerry -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 12:06:55AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: I am not sure a 'tutorial' is it either because they tend to take a person through a couple of particular tasks using the item in question, but still not discuss much of the why and wherefor. What's wrong in FreeBSD handbook and many different paper books available about unix? Actually not that many, but still there are available about design of unix. FreeBSD is really much more than the base OS. Even though it is divided in to base and ports, it is really all of them together. jerry There is no need for FreeBSD book as long as books about unix exists, and there is FreeBSD handbook. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Fri, 5 Jun 2009 00:04:19 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: text-only is important. Xorg is not part of FreeBSD, not always work, may be not wanted in many cases and finally .. there are no need for any graphics to read text maybe it's worth emphasizing that manpages in the text only form are the best solution for users with disabilities. A blind user can easily browse (read through) a manpage on his Braille output system, or have it read to him with a speech synthesizer. Because the text in the manpage is continous (no subsectioning and branching across different documents), the flow of reading is much easier and requires less interaction. The text only method describes how things ARE, not how things LOOK LIKE, which seems to be the common way of modern documenting using screenshots that show pictures of a screen, and you need many of those pictures to describe a certain process, which often makes it look like a children's book. :-) -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
cases and finally .. there are no need for any graphics to read text maybe it's worth emphasizing that manpages in the text only form are the best solution for users with disabilities. I actually know a blind man. But he has to use windoze+putty to be able to use FreeBSD - because textreader software works only that way. There are no braile style text terminals IMHO. The text only method describes how things ARE, not how things LOOK LIKE, which seems to be the common way of modern documenting The funny things in today GUI's are situation like buttons with text AND icons. Looks like micro-soft and friends do really care of third-world people. When someone can't read, he/she have icon to help. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Fri, 5 Jun 2009 01:08:28 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: I actually know a blind man. But he has to use windoze+putty to be able to use FreeBSD - because textreader software works only that way. There are no braile style text terminals IMHO. I've seen them, used in conjunction with DOS. But that was many years ago. They hooked somewhere into the GPU's output pipeline (after the GPU, prior to the CRT). A slider on the side allowed to select which text lines to put on Braille, one or two lines. 1234567890 QWERTZUIOP ABCDEFGHKL + up/down YXCVBNM,.- | | :.:..:.:.: ---+ The Braille output was 1x80 or 2x80. For outputs with less colums, 1x40 or 2x40, an additional horizontal slider was added. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
The Braille output was 1x80 or 2x80. For outputs with less colums, 1x40 or 2x40, an additional horizontal slider was added. RS-232 connected braile terminal would be THAT SIMPLE. Really nobody wanted to make moneyincredible. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
Polytropon writes: Many programs contain an EXAMPLES section in the man page. s/Many/Some/ Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Wednesday 03 June 2009 04:03:14 pm Polytropon wrote: I'm looking to an existing way to output a date in the format YY/DDD, where YY is the year (last two digits) and DDD is the of the year, starting from 1, preceeded by zeroes if needed, and /DDD, where is the year with four digits, such as 2009-01-01 would be 09/001, 2009-02-01 would be 2009/032. Like this? $ date +'%y/%j' 09/154 $ date +'%Y/%j' 2009/154 -- Kirk Strauser ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
as 2009-01-01 would be 09/001, 2009-02-01 would be 2009/032.
I've read man date and man strftime, and it didn't look
like this is already built in.
What am I missing?
If it's not invented yet, I'll do this on my own, but maybe
I don't need to re-invent the wheel. :-)
#include stdio.h
#include time.h
main(int argc,char **argv) {
time_t tmp1=time(0);
struct tm tmp2;
localtime_r(tmp1,tmp2);
if(argc1)
printf(%02d,(tmp2.tm_year/100)+19);
printf(%02d/%03d\n,tmp2.tm_year%100,tmp2.tm_yday+1);
return 0;
};
started with no arguments gives YY/DDD, with any argument - /DDD
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 16:07:11 -0500, Kirk Strauser k...@strauser.com wrote: Like this? $ date +'%y/%j' 09/154 $ date +'%Y/%j' 2009/154 Exactly. After re-reading man strftime, I really found it mentioned there: %jis replaced by the day of the year as a decimal number (001-366). Would be nice to have this in man date, too. :-) -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Wednesday 03 June 2009 04:52:19 pm Polytropon wrote: Exactly. After re-reading man strftime, I really found it mentioned there: %jis replaced by the day of the year as a decimal number (001-366). Would be nice to have this in man date, too. :-) Well, I see the point of documenting it in one canonical location, and pointing everything else at that location (instead of having to maintain every related man page every time it's updated). -- Kirk Strauser ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:00:45 -0500, Kirk Strauser k...@strauser.com wrote: Well, I see the point of documenting it in one canonical location, and pointing everything else at that location (instead of having to maintain every related man page every time it's updated). I really shoud have paid more attention to strftime manual, allthough I noticed it in the text of man date, saying: The format string may contain any of the conversion specifications described in the strftime(3) manual page, as well as any arbitrary text. And it was mentioned in SEE ALSO. This is how I got from man date to man strftime where I should have recognized the correct answer. Life is hard if you can't read properly. :-) PS. I love FreeBSD for its excellent documentation. Can't tell something similar about Linux, sadly. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
PS. I love FreeBSD for its excellent documentation. Can't tell something similar about Linux, sadly. --- This manual is no longer maintained. It may contain wrong informations. Use textinfo or even better out webpage --- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD
Ignore him please. Sent from my iPod -- Kirk On Jun 3, 2009, at 6:14 PM, Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: PS. I love FreeBSD for its excellent documentation. Can't tell something similar about Linux, sadly. --- This manual is no longer maintained. It may contain wrong informations. Use textinfo or even better out webpage --- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
