Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
i guess this is kind of interesting and relating to the subject, at least i have found it a good read : http://www.over-yonder.net/ ~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/bsd4linux1.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Schulz wrote: i guess this is kind of interesting and relating to the subject, at least i have found it a good read : http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/bsd4linux1.php That's been around the list at least a few times since I've been subscribed (~1.25 years) :). - -Garrett -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFPiAM6CkrZkzMC68RAmcKAJ44f4P8/Nnx2YKsZZT7fABwbOOmVwCghTP1 1hVYbkDb5EVneYJrNvg+aX4= =60eV -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
yeah. just trying to please ya... On Oct 24, 2006, at 10:15 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Schulz wrote: i guess this is kind of interesting and relating to the subject, at least i have found it a good read : http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/bsd4linux1.php That's been around the list at least a few times since I've been subscribed (~1.25 years) :). - -Garrett -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFPiAM6CkrZkzMC68RAmcKAJ44f4P8/Nnx2YKsZZT7fABwbOOmVwCghTP1 1hVYbkDb5EVneYJrNvg+aX4= =60eV -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions- [EMAIL PROTECTED] !DSPAM:1,453e20c26294668080009! ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Simon Gao wrote: Robert Huff wrote: Jeff Mohler writes: Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. Linux clearly supports many more bugs than FreeBSD as well. Linux is closer to the bleeding edge; always remember that blood will usually be yours. Robert Huff With Gentoo, installing and upgrading to the most up-to-date packages is a choice up to end users. Gentoo is all about choice. One can definitely choose to use packages a few years behind. Simon Found out some cool make targets by chance.. - From /usr/src/Makefile: # universe- *Really* build *everything* (buildworld and # all kernels on all architectures). # buildworld - Rebuild *everything*, including glue to help do # upgrades. # installworld- Install everything built by buildworld. # world - buildworld + installworld. # buildkernel - Rebuild the kernel and the kernel-modules. # installkernel - Install the kernel and the kernel-modules. # installkernel.debug # reinstallkernel - Reinstall the kernel and the kernel-modules. # reinstallkernel.debug # kernel - buildkernel + installkernel. # update - Convenient way to update your source tree (cvs). # check-old - Print a list of old files/directories in the system. # delete-old - Delete obsolete files and directories interactively. # delete-old-libs - Delete obsolete libraries interactively. # # This makefile is simple by design. The FreeBSD make automatically reads # the /usr/share/mk/sys.mk unless the -m argument is specified on the # command line. By keeping this makefile simple, it doesn't matter too # much how different the installed mk files are from those in the source # tree. This makefile executes a child make process, forcing it to use # the mk files from the source tree which are supposed to DTRT. # # The user-driven targets (as listed above) are implemented in Makefile.inc1. # # If you want to build your system from source be sure that /usr/obj has # at least 400MB of diskspace available. # # For individuals wanting to build from the sources currently on their # system, the simple instructions are: # # 1. `cd /usr/src' (or to the directory containing your source tree). # 2. `make world' # # For individuals wanting to upgrade their sources (even if only a # delta of a few days): # # 1. `cd /usr/src' (or to the directory containing your source tree). # 2. `make buildworld' # 3. `make buildkernel KERNCONF=YOUR_KERNEL_HERE' (default is GENERIC). # 4. `make installkernel KERNCONF=YOUR_KERNEL_HERE' (default is GENERIC). # 5. `reboot'(in single user mode: boot -s from the loader prompt). # 6. `mergemaster -p' # 7. `make installworld' # 8. `make delete-old' # 9. `mergemaster' # 10. `reboot' # 11. `make delete-old-libs' (in case no 3rd party program uses them anymore) So, this helps a bit when updating your system. Didn't realize that the delete-old and delete-old-libs make targets existed, nor kernel.. - -Garrett -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFNiFR6CkrZkzMC68RAgROAJ9HFYZiWxU1/BvLc/u9gwu2TOkHDQCcC8WM bMNx1Y+xKfIXwpsZiOR9908= =ESy8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
yeah the ports make me fell in love with FreeBSD, the only thing that came close to FreeBSD ports is the gentoo portage, note came close but not really at par. yeah, portage wasn't bad, but it wasn't as clean as ports either. More errors, more fixing. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On 2006-10-16 10:45, Simon Gao [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a few FreeBSD machine from 4.x to 5.x. I have asked people how to upgrade them to latest version 6.x cleanly. All I was told is that I need to wipe them out and reinstall. However, this is not the case with Gentoo Linux. With Gentoo, version release does not matter that much, you can always keep your system up to date if you like. 'Clean' upgrades can be done with FreeBSD too. I have installed machines with 4.7-RELEASE and then upgraded them to 5.X, 6.X and finally 7.0-CURRENT a few times. It's not easier (or faster) than a straight installation of a 7.0-CURRENT snapshot from `ftp.FreeBSD.org', but it's certainly possible. Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. This is probably true. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. --- Linux clearly supports many more bugs than FreeBSD as well. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Jeff Mohler writes: Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. Linux clearly supports many more bugs than FreeBSD as well. Linux is closer to the bleeding edge; always remember that blood will usually be yours. Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 08:13:05 -0700, Jeff Mohler wrote Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. --- Linux clearly supports many more bugs than FreeBSD as well. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions In one word... stability. Seriously, it's matured better than linux. Based on a codebase tested and depended upon for a lot longer than linux has been around. BSD is here to stay, even if linux is becoming more mainstream. Simply because it works, and has worked for years and years. FreeBSD is an entire operating system. The 'commands' you run (ie: shells, tar, disk utilities, filesystems, etc) are all bundled in the same code as one offering. Linux is a kernel, and a filesystem - each individual distribution therefore consisting of the kernel and various (mostly third- party/gnu) utilities to make up an O/S. Since there's no real central 'standard' set of utilities, each distribution varies not only in what it supports, how it works, but also where and how everything is configured from the install. FreeBSD on the other hand, stays tride and true with the same structure and only minimal variances (ie: sysinstall moved from /stand to /usr/sbin in version 6). On a more personal note, I prefer *BSD to linux because of the simplicity; too many variances between different linux distributions. With linux everyone and their brother has a different distribution out there; differing releases move configuration files to different places, each vendor makes their own package management, etc. I know the same could be argued about FreeBSD vs OpenBSD vs NetBSD, etc... but it's been my experience that linux has no real standard that all distros follow where *BSD does in terms of the userland, and let's face it - the userland is what we all have to work/live with the most. (just my two cents) -- Nathan Vidican [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Jim Stapleton wrote: yeah the ports make me fell in love with FreeBSD, the only thing that came close to FreeBSD ports is the gentoo portage, note came close but not really at par. yeah, portage wasn't bad, but it wasn't as clean as ports either. More errors, more fixing. That's primarily because Gentoo is about the most bleeding edge you can get in the opensource OS 'market'. FBSD ports tend to be more tested and lag behind Gentoo portage quite a bit or do not offer some software packages that are available in FBSD. Also, I'm not sure when you guys tried Gentoo, but as of late (within the past ~1 year), the quality of the packages and system as an OS has improved quite a bit, in the sense that many stable items now install and work properly in the OS. Another off-topic comment I admit, but I thought it should be mentioned... I'd like to see portage in FBSD though, since ruby is pretty kludgy. Either that or a different means of recording package data and dependencies (been thinking of Perl for a while..). -Garrett ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Robert Huff wrote: Jeff Mohler writes: Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. Linux clearly supports many more bugs than FreeBSD as well. Linux is closer to the bleeding edge; always remember that blood will usually be yours. Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] With Gentoo, installing and upgrading to the most up-to-date packages is a choice up to end users. Gentoo is all about choice. One can definitely choose to use packages a few years behind. Simon ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Also, I'm not sure when you guys tried Gentoo, but as of late (within the past ~1 year), the quality of the packages and system as an OS has improved quite a bit, in the sense that many stable items now install and work properly in the OS. Another off-topic comment I admit, but I thought it should be mentioned... I've been trying to deal with it for the past two months, on and off. OpenOffice would not compile, Xorg took a lot of tweaking and a few attempts, and a few other programs provided a bit of challange. Only KDE went more smoothly than it did in FBSD. I'd like to see portage in FBSD though, since ruby is pretty kludgy. Either that or a different means of recording package data and dependencies (been thinking of Perl for a while..). Where does Ruby fit into this? To my knowledge, ports uses Perl to my knowledge, and Portage uses Python. And while I wouldn't mind a few of the portage features, such as about 10k more packages, and a few of the interface/display options, I'd still rather use FBSD any day. -Jim ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Nathan Vidican wrote: In one word... stability. Seriously, it's matured better than linux. Based on a codebase tested and depended upon for a lot longer than linux has been around. BSD is here to stay, even if linux is becoming more mainstream. Simply because it works, and has worked for years and years. Probably true. FreeBSD is an entire operating system. The 'commands' you run (ie: shells, tar, disk utilities, filesystems, etc) are all bundled in the same code as one offering. Linux is a kernel, and a filesystem - each individual distribution therefore consisting of the kernel and various (mostly third- party/gnu) utilities to make up an O/S. Since there's no real central 'standard' set of utilities, each distribution varies not only in what it supports, how it works, but also where and how everything is configured from the install. FreeBSD on the other hand, stays tride and true with the same structure and only minimal variances (ie: sysinstall moved from /stand to /usr/sbin in version 6). Linux is all about choice. Yes, there is no single filesystem to stick with Linux. You have ext2/ext3, reiserfs, jfs, xfs you can use. However, each filesystem has its own advantages and disadvantages. Depending on what's needed, one can have different filesystems on one machine. If one looks for a whole OS, Solaris, AIX, OSX, or even Windows will work better at least you do not have to worry about device support problem. Even though there are many Linux distributions, but Linux core pacakges are the mostly the same. The differences are mainly in window manager and GUI applications. No matter which Linux distribution, kernel 2.6.16 is always the same. When it comes to X window, it's xorg across the board. On a more personal note, I prefer *BSD to linux because of the simplicity; too many variances between different linux distributions. With linux everyone and their brother has a different distribution out there; differing releases move configuration files to different places, each vendor makes their own package management, etc. I know the same could be argued about FreeBSD vs OpenBSD vs NetBSD, etc... but it's been my experience that linux has no real standard that all distros follow where *BSD does in terms of the userland, and let's face it - the userland is what we all have to work/live with the most. (just my two cents) -- Nathan Vidican [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 09:19:27AM -0700, Garrett Cooper wrote: I'd like to see portage in FBSD though, since ruby is pretty kludgy. You'd like to port a knockoff of ports to a system that has ports? (also, not sure what you're referring to with your 'ruby' comment.) In my experience, people develop on Linux and Linux distributions more, just because it's the current `popular' system. FreeBSD is still (imo) better, though, despite its smaller following. -- Raymond Pasco [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: +1 860 335 5022 (SMS only please) Our name is Legion, for we are many. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On 15/10/06 23:26, William Tracy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay. I've installed FreeBSD on my desktop. I got KDE working, and Amor is running so I have a little daemon sitting on my window. I can mount my USB card reader and open the pictures from my digital camera in Gimp. I can browse the web in Firefox. I even compiled my own kernel so that I'm all 1337. :-) Overall, I like FreeBSD--the kernel build process felt a lot smoother than Linux, the /boot and /sys file heirarchies makes more sense to me than /boot and /usr/src under Linux, and the /dev heirarchy seems sane, though it's still pretty alien to me. So far, everything I do under Linux I can do under FreeBSD. FreeBSD is nice, but I haven't seen anything really *compelling* about it. FreeBSD might be more stable as a server, but for my desktop Linux has proven more than stable enough. (X crashes sometimes, but FreeBSD can't really fix that.) The extra file flags look intersting, but otherwise I haven't seen anything that I can do under FreeBSD that I can't with Linux. So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. It'll come. Day by day, and slowly at first, but one day you will go back and it will feel wrong. Ceri -- That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Raymond Pasco wrote: On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 09:19:27AM -0700, Garrett Cooper wrote: I'd like to see portage in FBSD though, since ruby is pretty kludgy. You'd like to port a knockoff of ports to a system that has ports? (also, not sure what you're referring to with your 'ruby' comment.) In my experience, people develop on Linux and Linux distributions more, just because it's the current `popular' system. FreeBSD is still (imo) better, though, despite its smaller following. No; you guys misunderstood what I meant... Unless you do make install / deinstall for all your ports in your system and magically know when and which ports to upgrade when the time comes to upgrade them, you're probably using portupdate / portinstall, or one of the ruby based metapackages (portman for instance). Having less packages on a system in order to keep it up to date is key in many cases, and I believe that perl is a more widely used language than ruby is. That's why I made the comment I made. -Garrett ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Jim Stapleton wrote: Also, I'm not sure when you guys tried Gentoo, but as of late (within the past ~1 year), the quality of the packages and system as an OS has improved quite a bit, in the sense that many stable items now install and work properly in the OS. Another off-topic comment I admit, but I thought it should be mentioned... I've been trying to deal with it for the past two months, on and off. OpenOffice would not compile, Xorg took a lot of tweaking and a few attempts, and a few other programs provided a bit of challange. Only KDE went more smoothly than it did in FBSD. Hmmm... maybe it's just my playing around with Linux in general before I started using FreeBSD on my servers, but it didn't really seem like that much of a challenge for me. Then again, each user's experience differs, and maybe that's the best gem of advice I can give the original poster of this message when he asked us to 'wow' him. I'd like to see portage in FBSD though, since ruby is pretty kludgy. Either that or a different means of recording package data and dependencies (been thinking of Perl for a while..). Where does Ruby fit into this? To my knowledge, ports uses Perl to my knowledge, and Portage uses Python. Read the email I just wrote in reply to Raymond (timestamp should be shortly after this email). And while I wouldn't mind a few of the portage features, such as about 10k more packages, and a few of the interface/display options, I'd still rather use FBSD any day. Not saying I don't feel the same either, but the interface for updating ports could be better.. -Garrett ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 10:28:40AM -0700, Simon Gao wrote: Even though there are many Linux distributions, but Linux core pacakges are the mostly the same. The differences are mainly in window manager and GUI applications. No matter which Linux distribution, kernel 2.6.16 is always the same. When it comes to X window, it's xorg across the board. Wrong. Different vendors patch the stock linux kernel. Remember that linux has moved device handling to userland. And when the kernel itself is not same across distros what to talk of userland? My God, it gets really messy. Ubuntu stopped using /sbin/hotplug but Gentoo is still using them. Damn, there is much more confusion in the linux world than in Windoze... Damnit, but I have no bloody choice. I don't wany to buy an expensive piece of hardware like a DVB card or webcam ; then come home and find that the most precious buy is not worth a penny bcoz FreeBSD doesn't support it. At least for the really price conscious customer like me, linux has made my day. I was really surprised to find that both my webcams are supported in linux. Not with the stock kernel but with some add on. You guys sit and lament about the quality of linux code and the presence of bugs. But there is no gainsaying the fact that at least my hardware is supported albeit buggily or ineffectively... I think it is neither practical nor always possible to figure out what hardware is supported in FreeBSD and what is not. However to quote my own experience my expectations from FreeBSD has been rather modest and has never disappointed me. The support on old machines and performance simply rocks! regards, Girish ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 10:28:40AM -0700, Simon Gao wrote: Even though there are many Linux distributions, but Linux core pacakges are the mostly the same. The differences are mainly in window manager and GUI applications. No matter which Linux distribution, kernel 2.6.16 is always the same. When it comes to X window, it's xorg across the board. Wrong. Different vendors patch the stock linux kernel. Remember that linux has moved device handling to userland. And when the kernel itself is not same across distros what to talk of userland? My God, it gets really messy. Ubuntu stopped using /sbin/hotplug but Gentoo is still using them. Damn, there is much more confusion in the linux world than in Windoze... Damnit, but I have no bloody choice. I don't wany to buy an expensive piece of hardware like a DVB card or webcam ; then come home and find that the most precious buy is not worth a penny bcoz FreeBSD doesn't support it. At least for the really price conscious customer like me, linux has made my day. I was really surprised to find that both my webcams are supported in linux. Not with the stock kernel but with some add on. You guys sit and lament about the quality of linux code and the presence of bugs. But there is no gainsaying the fact that at least my hardware is supported albeit buggily or ineffectively... I think it is neither practical nor always possible to figure out what hardware is supported in FreeBSD and what is not. However to quote my own experience my expectations from FreeBSD has been rather modest and has never disappointed me. The support on old machines and performance simply rocks! regards, Girish ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On 2006/10/17 14:48, Girish Venkatachalam seems to have typed: But there is no gainsaying the fact that at least my hardware is supported albeit buggily or ineffectively... I don't mean to be rude, but if hardware support is your only criteria, why not just run Windows? If you don't care that its buggy or ineffective, and you don't want to check that it is supported before you buy it, you just want it to support everything, it would seem to me that Microsoft's OS is the obvious choice ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On 10/17/06, Giorgos Keramidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. This is probably true. yes it's true linux has support for more devices than FreeBSD and that's why i think we got to be heard, install this nifty app called bsdstats and maybe just maybe those device manufacturers will notice us FreeBSD users, that it is not just for hobbyist. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On 2006-10-18 08:37, jan gestre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/17/06, Giorgos Keramidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. This is probably true. yes it's true linux has support for more devices than FreeBSD and that's why i think we got to be heard, install this nifty app called bsdstats and maybe just maybe those device manufacturers will notice us FreeBSD users, that it is not just for hobbyist. There are other forms of active advocacy too. Write articles, post to forums, present stuff at conventions, talk and chat in local user groups about BSD, etc. Let us not limit ourselves to just bsdstats :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 03:02:26PM -0800, Peter A. Giessel wrote: I don't mean to be rude, but if hardware support is your only criteria, why not just run Windows? If you don't care that its buggy or ineffective, and you don't want to check that it is supported before you buy it, you just want it to support everything, it would seem to me that Microsoft's OS is the obvious choice NP, you are not rude at all. :-) I never said hardware support is the only criterion. I want hardware to be supported using UNIX semantics... I would love to port some important drivers to FreeBSD if that will help. regards, Girish -- Duty for duty's sake without hope for reward or fear of punishment ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On 10/16/06, Jeff Mohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Linux has iSCSI...which hands Fbsd a real beating in the server space. I work on projects at more customers than I can keep track of that -have- to use Linux in the middle of Fbsd farms just because of the amazing lack of iscsi support. Linux has been doing iscsi since what..2002 or so? Maybe 2003? C;mon..yes, I know a brave soul is starting work on it now, but how did the Fbsd effort let this lie for so long? On 10/15/06, Girish Venkatachalam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 12:35:13AM -0400, Andy Harrison wrote: On 10/15/06, William Tracy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. Ah well, you have to experience it. No amount of convincing or intellectual gymnastics will help you. Know that in the software ecosystem there is a place for everything. There are situations in which you have to use linux and even Windoze. But things are so vibrant that more and more Windoze apps are available in linux and FreeBSD and also in NetBSD and OpenBSD. Personally for me linux has very good support for a wide range of TV cards, remote controls and other rare hardware. BSDs also have support but somewhat limited. FreeBSD gives you CCD,GEOM,GDBE, netgraph and various other features hard to find in other OSes. Some equivalents exist but not as good. OpenBSD has very good IPsec , pf , BGP and other networking stuff. pf is also available on FreeBSD but I doubt if it is as well integrated and feature rich as OpenBSD. Linux has a lousy file system and is somewhat unstable and will throw surprises if you stress it or use it in unexpected ways. Whereas BSDs have very very good stability. For instance FreeBSD will give roughly 20 to 30% better overall performance compared to Linux. This is subjective and dependent on various factors but this has been my experience. In terms of packages FreeBSD I think has the largest number since it can emulate linux binaries too. I can go on but I suggest you try things with an open mind. If you like it, stick to it , else go back. Nobody is forcing you. But remember, give it enough time and be open. regards, Girish ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello, As far as I can tell Linux only had mainstream/official iscsi support in 2.6.12 (2005-06). -- Alexandre Vieira - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
That was after I left Netapp for a spell (and later came back once the vacation ran out) and it was supported before then by _something_ linux. That was fall of 03. Not trying to debate..just it'll still be 08 before it's likely to be universally supported. On 10/16/06, Alexandre Vieira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/16/06, Jeff Mohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Linux has iSCSI...which hands Fbsd a real beating in the server space. I work on projects at more customers than I can keep track of that -have- to use Linux in the middle of Fbsd farms just because of the amazing lack of iscsi support. Linux has been doing iscsi since what..2002 or so? Maybe 2003? C;mon..yes, I know a brave soul is starting work on it now, but how did the Fbsd effort let this lie for so long? On 10/15/06, Girish Venkatachalam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 12:35:13AM -0400, Andy Harrison wrote: On 10/15/06, William Tracy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. Ah well, you have to experience it. No amount of convincing or intellectual gymnastics will help you. Know that in the software ecosystem there is a place for everything. There are situations in which you have to use linux and even Windoze. But things are so vibrant that more and more Windoze apps are available in linux and FreeBSD and also in NetBSD and OpenBSD. Personally for me linux has very good support for a wide range of TV cards, remote controls and other rare hardware. BSDs also have support but somewhat limited. FreeBSD gives you CCD,GEOM,GDBE, netgraph and various other features hard to find in other OSes. Some equivalents exist but not as good. OpenBSD has very good IPsec , pf , BGP and other networking stuff. pf is also available on FreeBSD but I doubt if it is as well integrated and feature rich as OpenBSD. Linux has a lousy file system and is somewhat unstable and will throw surprises if you stress it or use it in unexpected ways. Whereas BSDs have very very good stability. For instance FreeBSD will give roughly 20 to 30% better overall performance compared to Linux. This is subjective and dependent on various factors but this has been my experience. In terms of packages FreeBSD I think has the largest number since it can emulate linux binaries too. I can go on but I suggest you try things with an open mind. If you like it, stick to it , else go back. Nobody is forcing you. But remember, give it enough time and be open. regards, Girish ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello, As far as I can tell Linux only had mainstream/official iscsi support in 2.6.12 (2005-06). -- Alexandre Vieira - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Sun, 2006-10-15 at 15:26 -0700, William Tracy wrote: I even compiled my own kernel so that I'm all 1337. :-) What does this mean? So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. I would think if you spend enough time with it, these questions may be answered by yourself. I'm assuming you would know your likes/dislikes/opinions about Linux based on what you do with it. So, do the same things with FreeBSD and ask yourself if you feel compelled to keep using it or not. To ask us to wow you like some bizarre circus act is a little presumptuous on your part, no? Bob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
I have a few FreeBSD machine from 4.x to 5.x. I have asked people how to upgrade them to latest version 6.x cleanly. All I was told is that I need to wipe them out and reinstall. However, this is not the case with Gentoo Linux. With Gentoo, version release does not matter that much, you can always keep your system up to date if you like. Of cause, you can also choose staying at a certain version. Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. Simon Jim Stapleton wrote: Well, in my case: - No matter what method I use to install packages in Linux (Apt-Get, Yum, Deb, RPM, and to a much lesser extent, Emerge, and to a *MUCH* greater extent src tar.gz's), I tend to have a lot more trouble getting installs to finish than with BSD in ports. - The FreeBSD community is much more friendly and helpful than the Linux community, in my experience. Gentoo's is better than other Linux communities, but still not quite up to FreeBSD. - I notice a lot smaller number of It's 'X' liscence, therefore it has to be good, or It's open source therefore it has to be good fanboys in FreeBSD. The users tend to be more of a It works, so it's good type. This really makes the commmunity pleasant. - The documentation of FreeBSD is much better in both organization and detail - while good documentation can be found for Linux, FreeBSD just takes a lot less searching. - I've found a lot of breaks in Linux where I couldn't find anything short of a system re-install to fix them without a lot more effort in searching for some obscure piece of documentation. Aside from once when I blew up my kernel build, I didn't have that problem in BSD. - It's less popular than Linux, so it's less commonly known/accounted for, and it makes you just that much safer from hackers. Note: that's not to say it doesn't have it's issues, like every other OS, I could name a few dozen issues I've run into with FreeBSD without much hassle (mostly related to drivers, UI, and parts of the installer), but that's a different topic alltogether. -Jim ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
All I was told is that I need to wipe them out and reinstall. i would recommend that you change the people who you are asking your technical questions to. i personally tend to get really upset when someone tells me one thing, then thru my own research, i find out that they didnt know shit from shinola. *wink* cheers, jonathan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Oct 16, 2006, at 10:45 AM, Simon Gao wrote: I have a few FreeBSD machine from 4.x to 5.x. I have asked people how to upgrade them to latest version 6.x cleanly. All I was told is that I need to wipe them out and reinstall. However, this is not the case with Gentoo Linux. It's not the case with FreeBSD either. Read the fine Handbook, or /usr/src/UPDATING... -- -Chuck ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
At 01:45 PM 10/16/2006, Simon Gao wrote: I have a few FreeBSD machine from 4.x to 5.x. I have asked people how to upgrade them to latest version 6.x cleanly. All I was told is that I need to wipe them out and reinstall. However, this is not the case with Gentoo Linux. With Gentoo, version release does not matter that much, you can always keep your system up to date if you like. Of cause, you can also choose staying at a certain version. Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. Whoever gave you the 'wipe and reinstall' advice for the 5.x to 6.x migration was insane. 4.x to 6.x is a pain, due to major changes in /dev (5.x and later use devfs, 4.x doesn't) but can still be done. but the 5.6 to 6.x migration is fairly straight forward with a buildworld and a couple minor caveats as noticed in UPDATING. Jeff P.S. while 4.x to 5.x is possible, I'd still personally do a wipe/reinstall.5.x to 6.x, I'd build world. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Simon Gao wrote: Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. So??? What's so compelling about that? BSD has a Dever little Clevil... Oops! I mean a Clever little Devil. ...and all that Linux has, is that obviously intoxicated Penguin. Daemon is a gas, whereas Tux is merely gassed. What better reason, for choosing one OS over another?g -- -wittig http://www.robertwittig.com/ . http://robertwittig.net/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jeff Palmer wrote: At 01:45 PM 10/16/2006, Simon Gao wrote: I have a few FreeBSD machine from 4.x to 5.x. I have asked people how to upgrade them to latest version 6.x cleanly. All I was told is that I need to wipe them out and reinstall. However, this is not the case with Gentoo Linux. With Gentoo, version release does not matter that much, you can always keep your system up to date if you like. Of cause, you can also choose staying at a certain version. Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. Whoever gave you the 'wipe and reinstall' advice for the 5.x to 6.x migration was insane. 4.x to 6.x is a pain, due to major changes in /dev (5.x and later use devfs, 4.x doesn't) but can still be done. but the 5.6 to 6.x migration is fairly straight forward with a buildworld and a couple minor caveats as noticed in UPDATING. Jeff P.S. while 4.x to 5.x is possible, I'd still personally do a wipe/reinstall.5.x to 6.x, I'd build world. No kidding. Only if you want to get rid of obsolete/unused files from previous system / ports should you do this. This is more of a time dependency though and not a version dependency, i.e. if I move from from 4.x (used for 1-2 years), I may consider wiping stuff clean and reinstalling from scratch. But if you've used PCs enough you should have known this from experience. This is sort of a good rule of thumb with all OSes to some extent.. My thoughts... Pro-FBSD: 1. Better kernel and userland 'linking' (is 'cooperation' a better term?), due to better overall dev and planning organization. 2. Better documentation; you can find more properly documented manpages and the documentation-for the most part-is centralized on freebsd.org, which helps a lot. Pro-Linux: 1. More bleeding edge hardware support. 2. In general, better software support due to more devs working on Linux than FBSD (or *BSD in general). Another sidecomment: *BSD tends to be better organized in terms of networking and server configs, but in general Linux tends to be better in the desktop arena, depending on what you're trying to accomplish of course. Besides, all good ideas in either camp eventually equilibrates out to the other camp due to proper collaboration and open-source ideology. The main thing that separates the Linux and *BSD group, apart from organization, is the GNU license (more restrictive to devs and for resale of designed product, perhaps, possibly too idealistic in design) vs the BSD license (better for devs and business folks if they come up with an idea and want to market it or maintain their copyright/idea properly with less restrictions in a given respect). But, you should read the BSD and GNU licenses and compare them for yourself to determine where and how they differ. Hopefully I won't get a lot of flak from the list about my comments :). - -Garrett -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFM9Ir6CkrZkzMC68RApBHAJ9q0cJNQo3oBZEsNwR9HI5D2I7AtwCfX33B 0lVGmqBF7/vhPTTqTQapHAU= =xGhZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Jeff Palmer writes: Whoever gave you the 'wipe and reinstall' advice for the 5.x to 6.x migration was insane. Need is the wrong word; there are plenty of people who have upgraded across major release boundaries to prove the contrary. Are there reasons to wipe and reinstall? Sure. I used to do it all the time, as it cleaned out leftover libraries and config files; it also gave me the chance to tweak partition sizes. To the OP: source updating is possible. Read UPDATING; check the mailing list archives; ask questions if you don't understand what's happening. As always, have a verified backup. Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Well, thanks for all the replies. I didn't mean to rub anybody the wrong way, and if I did, I'm sorry. :-P Up until now, I've basically been running FreeBSD more or less like just another Linux distro, and was beginning to wonder if I was really missing out on something by doing that. That, and I thought I'd give the fanboys a chance to praise their pet OS. :-) Overall, it sounds like I was on the right track, though. FreeBSD has its pros and cons, but it's fundamentally just another Unix-like system. Which is a good thing! ;-) For the record, I really, really, like Debian (and now Ubuntu). I understand that there are packages that allow the Debian packaging system to run on top of the FreeBSD kernel, and I'll definitely have try that out sometime. Anyway, FreeBSD is great, and I'll keep playing with it. :-) William ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Monday October 16, 2006 at 02:00:57 (PM) Jonathan Horne wrote: didnt know shit from shinola. I haven't heard that since I was a kid. Just in case someone does not know where the saying originated from: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/114000.html -- Gerard It is not the OS's job to stop you from shooting your foot. If you so choose to do so, then it is OS's job to deliver Mr. Bullet to Mr Foot in the most efficient way it knows. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 10:45:55AM -0700, Simon Gao wrote: I have a few FreeBSD machine from 4.x to 5.x. I have asked people how to upgrade them to latest version 6.x cleanly. All I was told is that I need to wipe them out and reinstall. However, this is not the case with Gentoo Linux. With Gentoo, version release does not matter that much, you can always keep your system up to date if you like. Of cause, you can also choose staying at a certain version. You don't have to do a fresh install. Just follow the upgrade instructions in the handbook and it will probably work. But a clean install might be good. I think there may be some file system changes that you won't get without a clean install because the file systems would be already built so the new version would use the existing form, but I don't remember if that is between 4.x and 5.x or between 5.x and 6.x. Anyway, the original question wasn't why you don't like FreeBSD, it was why people do like FreeBSD. jerry Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. Simon Jim Stapleton wrote: Well, in my case: - No matter what method I use to install packages in Linux (Apt-Get, Yum, Deb, RPM, and to a much lesser extent, Emerge, and to a *MUCH* greater extent src tar.gz's), I tend to have a lot more trouble getting installs to finish than with BSD in ports. - The FreeBSD community is much more friendly and helpful than the Linux community, in my experience. Gentoo's is better than other Linux communities, but still not quite up to FreeBSD. - I notice a lot smaller number of It's 'X' liscence, therefore it has to be good, or It's open source therefore it has to be good fanboys in FreeBSD. The users tend to be more of a It works, so it's good type. This really makes the commmunity pleasant. - The documentation of FreeBSD is much better in both organization and detail - while good documentation can be found for Linux, FreeBSD just takes a lot less searching. - I've found a lot of breaks in Linux where I couldn't find anything short of a system re-install to fix them without a lot more effort in searching for some obscure piece of documentation. Aside from once when I blew up my kernel build, I didn't have that problem in BSD. - It's less popular than Linux, so it's less commonly known/accounted for, and it makes you just that much safer from hackers. Note: that's not to say it doesn't have it's issues, like every other OS, I could name a few dozen issues I've run into with FreeBSD without much hassle (mostly related to drivers, UI, and parts of the installer), but that's a different topic alltogether. -Jim ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 01:38:59PM -0700, William Tracy wrote: Well, thanks for all the replies. I didn't mean to rub anybody the wrong way, and if I did, I'm sorry. :-P Up until now, I've basically been running FreeBSD more or less like just another Linux distro, and was beginning to wonder if I was really missing out on something by doing that. That, and I thought I'd give the fanboys a chance to praise their pet OS. :-) Overall, it sounds like I was on the right track, though. FreeBSD has its pros and cons, but it's fundamentally just another Unix-like system. Which is a good thing! ;-) It's not just another Unix-like system, it _is_ a Unix system. For the record, I really, really, like Debian (and now Ubuntu). I understand that there are packages that allow the Debian packaging system to run on top of the FreeBSD kernel, and I'll definitely have try that out sometime. Anyway, FreeBSD is great, and I'll keep playing with it. :-) William -Damian ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
I have a few FreeBSD machine from 4.x to 5.x. I have asked people how to upgrade them to latest version 6.x cleanly. All I was told is that I need to wipe them out and reinstall. However, this is not the case with Gentoo Linux. With Gentoo, version release does not matter that much, you can always keep your system up to date if you like. Of cause, you can also choose staying at a certain version. I'm gonna join the whoever said this was on crack club. Going between major versions can be a challange due to mergebastard and the various config file change, but Gentoo's setup is really no different in that respect. However, when you want to compile the Kernel, the FreeBSD system is much mroe useful than that of Gentoo. I failed my first kernel build on FreeBSD (custom kernel config) before it booted properly, and have since done several more without issue. With Gentoo, after about half a dozen attempts at optimizing my kernel for my notebook, I gave up and used Genkernel, which was not as efficient, but at least worked. Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. Spend an extra 5 minutes researching your hardware before buying, more often than not, this'll save you the issues. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 05:41:31PM -0400, Jim Stapleton wrote: I have a few FreeBSD machine from 4.x to 5.x. I have asked people how to upgrade them to latest version 6.x cleanly. All I was told is that I need to wipe them out and reinstall. However, this is not the case with Gentoo Linux. With Gentoo, version release does not matter that much, you can always keep your system up to date if you like. Of cause, you can also choose staying at a certain version. I'm gonna join the whoever said this was on crack club. Going between major versions can be a challange due to mergebastard and the various config file change, but Gentoo's setup is really no different in that respect. However, when you want to compile the Kernel, the FreeBSD system is much mroe useful than that of Gentoo. I failed my first kernel build on FreeBSD (custom kernel config) before it booted properly, and have since done several more without issue. With Gentoo, after about half a dozen attempts at optimizing my kernel for my notebook, I gave up and used Genkernel, which was not as efficient, but at least worked. Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. Spend an extra 5 minutes researching your hardware before buying, more often than not, this'll save you the issues. I don't mean to bring the conversation from [EMAIL PROTECTED] over here, but you should understand why Linux supports more devices as it's important if you truly want to support open source principles. Basically, the Linux distributions are okay with using and redistributing binary drivers supplied by vendors. Rather than fighting for documentation (some vendors refuse to tell people how to use what they just paid for), they just roll over and run the closed source binary; possibly also redistributing them illegally. While this may allow you to use a particular piece of hardware in the short-term, in the long-term it's counterproductive since you're now dependent on the vendor supporting your device. What happens if your O.S. is too small for the vendor to worry about? What happens if the vendor goes out of business? What happens if the vendor drops support? If you use binary blobs, you're fscked. Don't do it. Instead, support vendors that support open source software developers. -Damian ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:38:59 -0700 William Tracy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For the record, I really, really, like Debian (and now Ubuntu). I understand that there are packages that allow the Debian packaging system to run on top of the FreeBSD kernel, and I'll definitely have try that out sometime. Anyway, FreeBSD is great, and I'll keep playing with it. :-) Sounds like you think of that Debian GNU/kFreeBSD thing. While it may be a nice porting effort for the Debian team, and surely fits the Linux development model to take bit (a) from here, bit (b) from there, (c) from somewhere else, throw everything into autoconf and hope it works - this totally kills the entire point about using FreeBSD. I like the FreeBSD kernel. I really do. But by itself, it is nothing I either dream of or start drooling when someone mentions it. I think somewhere I read of GNU userland with the known for its stability FreeBSD kernel (can't remember exactly where). narf. NARF! The strong point of FreeBSD is that the entire OS is in one repo and is developed together. And that is were a lot of this stability comes from. That is why it works like it does. Ripping out the kernel and glueing it ontop of something else... no. Other things the FreeBSD kernel offers, like netgraph for example, to the best of my knowledge, they lack the userland tools to use that stuff to its full extent. Joerg -- | /\ ASCII ribbon | GnuPG Key ID | e86d b753 3deb e749 6c3a | | \ / campaign against |0xbbcaad24 | 5706 1f7d 6cfd bbca ad24 | | XHTML in email |.the next sentence is true. | | / \ and news | .the previous sentence was a lie.| signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Jim Stapleton wrote: I have a few FreeBSD machine from 4.x to 5.x. I have asked people how to upgrade them to latest version 6.x cleanly. All I was told is that I need to wipe them out and reinstall. However, this is not the case with Gentoo Linux. With Gentoo, version release does not matter that much, you can always keep your system up to date if you like. Of cause, you can also choose staying at a certain version. I'm gonna join the whoever said this was on crack club. Going between major versions can be a challange due to mergebastard and the various config file change, but Gentoo's setup is really no different in that respect. However, when you want to compile the Kernel, the FreeBSD system is much mroe useful than that of Gentoo. I failed my first kernel build on FreeBSD (custom kernel config) before it booted properly, and have since done several more without issue. With Gentoo, after about half a dozen attempts at optimizing my kernel for my notebook, I gave up and used Genkernel, which was not as efficient, but at least worked. No offense to those who swear by it (and I know this is a bit off-topic), but genkernel is shit. It's kernel compiling for people who are afraid of forgetting make commands.. -Garrett Linux supports more devices than FreeBSD, especially new devices. Spend an extra 5 minutes researching your hardware before buying, more often than not, this'll save you the issues. True. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 William Tracy wrote: So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. I like the separation of the complete OS and third part software in Ports Collection. I love the ability to upgrade from one major release to another using source upgrade - without doing a complete reinstall, as with the Linux distros I've used. I went straight from 5.4- 6.1 without any hassle. The EOL schedule for Fedora is almost killing me, and every new release means a complete reinstall - in practice. I boot FreeBSD far more often than Linux these days. What I still lack is getting my Bluetooth and GPRS Cellphone dial-up link running...and VMWare. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: Grunbacher Altweizen Dunkel Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFNCuBMVyOPWVstbURAjWiAJ9CDp3WNGSWFx9niATeZqS6pMXi1ACgisLw 65BUC1BOi0RoHGY6XEEg0tA= =eQ/H -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
No offense to those who swear by it (and I know this is a bit off-topic), but genkernel is shit. It's kernel compiling for people who are afraid of forgetting make commands.. -Garrett I agree, but since I couldn't get a decent custom kernel booting, that was my only option. And speaking of sht, in regards to Damiens last comment - I honestly don't believe that it's just binary drivers that keeps Linux with better driver support - there are more OSS drivers there too. The reason? It's fecal - linux only; cares that it works, they care much less about documentation and quality. It's enticing to the a lot of the developers and made the community larger - Hey I can spend my time coding how I want instead of following standards and wasting time with documentation!!. Don't get me wrong, I think binary drivers due play an issue, by my BSD desktop had binary drivers in it too, they just weren't supplied with the BSD images (I don't think they would have been stored with linux images either). anyway, just another two cents of my own. -Jim Stapleton ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Jim Stapleton wrote: No offense to those who swear by it (and I know this is a bit off-topic), but genkernel is shit. It's kernel compiling for people who are afraid of forgetting make commands.. -Garrett I agree, but since I couldn't get a decent custom kernel booting, that was my only option. Ok, fair enough I suppose. And speaking of sht, in regards to Damiens last comment - I honestly don't believe that it's just binary drivers that keeps Linux with better driver support - there are more OSS drivers there too. The reason? It's fecal - linux only; cares that it works, they care much less about documentation and quality. It's enticing to the a lot of the developers and made the community larger - Hey I can spend my time coding how I want instead of following standards and wasting time with documentation!!. Don't get me wrong, I think binary drivers due play an issue, by my BSD desktop had binary drivers in it too, they just weren't supplied with the BSD images (I don't think they would have been stored with linux images either). anyway, just another two cents of my own. -Jim Stapleton Err... well, arguably a lot more of the Linux community may be individuals with a hacker mindset as opposed to a developer mindset. Just a thought. -Garrett ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Anders Gulden Olstad writes: I love the ability to upgrade from one major release to another using source upgrade - without doing a complete reinstall, as with the Linux distros I've used. It is worth noting that at least once - I think it was 3.x - 4,0 - this was not the case. Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Ok, make that 3: Ports I really don't miss rpm hell. yeah the ports make me fell in love with FreeBSD, the only thing that came close to FreeBSD ports is the gentoo portage, note came close but not really at par. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
William Tracy wrote: [snip] So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. What's so compelling about Linux? At least, tell us which distribution you are talking about and how and why FreeBSD does not seem very impressive in comparison. -- Tore ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On 10/15/06, William Tracy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay. I've installed FreeBSD on my desktop. I got KDE working, and Amor is running so I have a little daemon sitting on my window. I can mount my USB card reader and open the pictures from my digital camera in Gimp. I can browse the web in Firefox. I even compiled my own kernel so that I'm all 1337. :-) Overall, I like FreeBSD--the kernel build process felt a lot smoother than Linux, the /boot and /sys file heirarchies makes more sense to me than /boot and /usr/src under Linux, and the /dev heirarchy seems sane, though it's still pretty alien to me. So far, everything I do under Linux I can do under FreeBSD. FreeBSD is nice, but I haven't seen anything really *compelling* about it. FreeBSD might be more stable as a server, but for my desktop Linux has proven more than stable enough. (X crashes sometimes, but FreeBSD can't really fix that.) The extra file flags look intersting, but otherwise I haven't seen anything that I can do under FreeBSD that I can't with Linux. So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. William Tracy Well, I guess you can ask yourself some questions: - Is there something now that you can't do but were able to using Linux (or vice-versa) ? - Hardware support (might fit the previous question) - Is performance better/worse ? - Your global experience with it: installation, usage, documentation, support. From my experience, I was using linux before FreeBSD, but I always felt curiosity to test it. My first try was with 5.0 and although slow at the time (processing apache logs with awstats) I loved it. Two things come out shining: it's a complete OS not a kernel glued with userland and libraries and the documentation is supreme. Just my 2 euro cents ;-) -- Joao Barros ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Sunday 15 October 2006 17:26, William Tracy wrote: Okay. I've installed FreeBSD on my desktop. I got KDE working, and Amor is running so I have a little daemon sitting on my window. I can mount my USB card reader and open the pictures from my digital camera in Gimp. I can browse the web in Firefox. I even compiled my own kernel so that I'm all 1337. :-) Overall, I like FreeBSD--the kernel build process felt a lot smoother than Linux, the /boot and /sys file heirarchies makes more sense to me than /boot and /usr/src under Linux, and the /dev heirarchy seems sane, though it's still pretty alien to me. So far, everything I do under Linux I can do under FreeBSD. FreeBSD is nice, but I haven't seen anything really *compelling* about it. FreeBSD might be more stable as a server, but for my desktop Linux has proven more than stable enough. (X crashes sometimes, but FreeBSD can't really fix that.) The extra file flags look intersting, but otherwise I haven't seen anything that I can do under FreeBSD that I can't with Linux. So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. William Tracy ill tel you why i switched from linux to freebsd. first, the release schedule. or rather... the length of the maintenance calendar. freebsd maintains the core operating system longer than any linux distro ive ever seen. i was previously on fedora, and their EOL schedule came so quickly some times, that in order to maintain security, a complete operating system upgrade was necessary. this was in part due to the rpm system, which doesnt necessarily prefer to install another versions rpms into a newer or older version of the OS. (if im wrong there, too bad, ive already switched to freebsd, and im not going back, so dont bother to correct me *wink*). second, (and this part, im only going to use estimations, im not going to look up version info for each release), what was the latest version of [application] in FC5? FC4? FC3? on back? ok.. for the sake of example i will go and look up one... well take apache for example. FC5 - httpd-2.2.2-1.2.i386.rpm FC4 - httpd-2.0.54-10.4.i386.rpm FC3 - httpd-2.0.53-3.3.i386.rpm FC2 - httpd-2.0.51-2.9.i386.rpm in freebsd, i can have the latest 2.0.59 on my system, no matter if im running 6.1, 6.0, 5.5, 5.4, 5.3... same thing goes for practically anything else you can think of that you want to run. note that FC5 upgrades you to 2.2.x, and me, i dont know alot about apache, but i do know that my httpd.conf file doesnt work right in 2.2.x, but works perfectly for what i need in 2.0.x. not being forced into a version that is not right for me, is something i like. i dont know how to make my own rpm files (yes i know i could learn if i really needed to... but see end of paragraph that begins 'first'). i do know how to compile from source, but if something is already built for me for my system, i would prefer to use that and take advantage of that resource. freebsd gives you options. latest php4 and mysql4? latest apache 1.3? your not even ready to move from freebsd 4.x to 5.x? no problem. and that's, what i think. cheers, jonathan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Well, in my case: - No matter what method I use to install packages in Linux (Apt-Get, Yum, Deb, RPM, and to a much lesser extent, Emerge, and to a *MUCH* greater extent src tar.gz's), I tend to have a lot more trouble getting installs to finish than with BSD in ports. - The FreeBSD community is much more friendly and helpful than the Linux community, in my experience. Gentoo's is better than other Linux communities, but still not quite up to FreeBSD. - I notice a lot smaller number of It's 'X' liscence, therefore it has to be good, or It's open source therefore it has to be good fanboys in FreeBSD. The users tend to be more of a It works, so it's good type. This really makes the commmunity pleasant. - The documentation of FreeBSD is much better in both organization and detail - while good documentation can be found for Linux, FreeBSD just takes a lot less searching. - I've found a lot of breaks in Linux where I couldn't find anything short of a system re-install to fix them without a lot more effort in searching for some obscure piece of documentation. Aside from once when I blew up my kernel build, I didn't have that problem in BSD. - It's less popular than Linux, so it's less commonly known/accounted for, and it makes you just that much safer from hackers. Note: that's not to say it doesn't have it's issues, like every other OS, I could name a few dozen issues I've run into with FreeBSD without much hassle (mostly related to drivers, UI, and parts of the installer), but that's a different topic alltogether. -Jim ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On 10/15/06, Joao Barros [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/15/06, William Tracy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay. I've installed FreeBSD on my desktop. I got KDE working, and Amor is running so I have a little daemon sitting on my window. I can mount my USB card reader and open the pictures from my digital camera in Gimp. I can browse the web in Firefox. I even compiled my own kernel so that I'm all 1337. :-) Overall, I like FreeBSD--the kernel build process felt a lot smoother than Linux, the /boot and /sys file heirarchies makes more sense to me than /boot and /usr/src under Linux, and the /dev heirarchy seems sane, though it's still pretty alien to me. So far, everything I do under Linux I can do under FreeBSD. FreeBSD is nice, but I haven't seen anything really *compelling* about it. FreeBSD might be more stable as a server, but for my desktop Linux has proven more than stable enough. (X crashes sometimes, but FreeBSD can't really fix that.) The extra file flags look intersting, but otherwise I haven't seen anything that I can do under FreeBSD that I can't with Linux. So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. William Tracy Well, I guess you can ask yourself some questions: - Is there something now that you can't do but were able to using Linux (or vice-versa) ? - Hardware support (might fit the previous question) - Is performance better/worse ? - Your global experience with it: installation, usage, documentation, support. From my experience, I was using linux before FreeBSD, but I always felt curiosity to test it. My first try was with 5.0 and although slow at the time (processing apache logs with awstats) I loved it. Two things come out shining: it's a complete OS not a kernel glued with userland and libraries and the documentation is supreme. Just my 2 euro cents ;-) Ok, make that 3: Ports I really don't miss rpm hell. -- Joao Barros ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Sun, Oct 15, 2006 at 03:26:02PM -0700, William Tracy wrote: Okay. I've installed FreeBSD on my desktop. I got KDE working, and Amor is running so I have a little daemon sitting on my window. I can mount my USB card reader and open the pictures from my digital camera in Gimp. I can browse the web in Firefox. I even compiled my own kernel so that I'm all 1337. :-) Overall, I like FreeBSD--the kernel build process felt a lot smoother than Linux, the /boot and /sys file heirarchies makes more sense to me than /boot and /usr/src under Linux, and the /dev heirarchy seems sane, though it's still pretty alien to me. So far, everything I do under Linux I can do under FreeBSD. FreeBSD is nice, but I haven't seen anything really *compelling* about it. FreeBSD might be more stable as a server, but for my desktop Linux has proven more than stable enough. (X crashes sometimes, but FreeBSD can't really fix that.) The extra file flags look intersting, but otherwise I haven't seen anything that I can do under FreeBSD that I can't with Linux. So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. FreeBSd is another OS, after all. It is not out to wow anyone - especially if you have been basically satisfied with the other one. As a server it is incrementally better than Linux for many server type things. You have also identified some things that you find are a little cleaner about FreeBSD. That type of cleaner, more manageable structure is one reason FreeBSD can be nicer to work with and may lead to a more reliable server system. There are other things that people prefer about the FreeBSD environment and may also lead to improvements in reliability. But, you are not going to be bowled over - just a little more pleased with the server environment. I think it is enough to be worth learning the system. It is up to you what you think. Both Linux and FreeBSD are a major improvement over certain other proprietary, so-called OS, versions. But, that is the big jump. The jump from Linux to FreeBSD as a server is rather less dramatic but, still an improvement for many uses. jerry William Tracy ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
--On October 15, 2006 3:26:02 PM -0700 William Tracy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. Well, let's see. As a server, I have worked with Windows, Solaris, Gentoo, RedHat, Fedora, CentOS, Slackware, OpenBSD and FreeBSD. All my servers are FreeBSD now, except for the ones that require Windows and don't give me an otpion. That should tell you something. Features that I like that I consider better than other *nixes: 1) The install - the install is simple and easy to follow. Furthermore, you can run the installer any time you want by running sysinstall, something that often requires inserting a CD (or copying the CD to the hard drive) on other OSes. 2) The OS - it has all the tools you need without any of the bloat. Yes, it requires that you actually learn Unix, but that's not a bad thing. Built-in perl. Built-in tcpdump. 3) The kernel. I've done kernel rebuilds on Linux. Trust me, freebsd is much easier. make buildkernel, make buildworld, make installkernel, reboot, run mergemaster, make installworld, run mergemaster again. And I can do it in an ssh session without having to worry about running to the console. 4) The ports system. I have at my fingertips everything I need to install anything I need. And if it's not there, just ask. Someone will create the port. Complex apps that require the installation of a number of items (dependencies) are often so daunting that people don't even want to tackle them. In FreeBSD, the port does all of that for you. What's left? Oh - performance. FreeBSD just works. I've never had a crash. I've never had sluggish performance. Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Adjunct Information Security Officer The University of Texas at Dallas http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/security/
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On 10/15/06, William Tracy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. There's already been plenty of answers with which I agree. The bulk of my professional life was with Solaris, with some linux and BSD/OS in the mix. Then I changed jobs and needed to be a FreeBSD guy. It was so easy to run and manage, I felt like I was cheating. Where was the struggling to satisfy every dependency? Where was the need to hunt down the latest version of a binary package or rpm? Where were the unresolved symbol errors while upgrading kernels? Eventually I became adept at making my own rpm's, so less waiting for updated rpm's while still retaining the maintainability of package installs. And then there was FreeBSD. A new version of apache comes out, someone tweaked a couple of files in the ports tree, my scheduled cvsup picks it up automatically anyway, so I'm left with nothing more than running 'portupgrade'. Or (far less frequently) a new version of something comes out, but it's less popular so the port maintainer hasn't gotten around to tweaking the ports fast enough for me. I just tweak the files myself because the process is far simpler than creating custom rpm's, then let it rip. I like how files are very consistently found in logical places, like /usr/local/etc for config files, /usr/local/var for stuff like databases, /usr/local/www for web stuff, /usr/local/bin for binaries. It's not a constant quest wondering where stuff got installed and what data files are where, and not having to type paths to run programs in curious locations. that sort of thing used to become especially annoying with programs that like to install into a directory where the name included the version number, /usr/local/foo-1.1.1/ or something. Like I said before, running FreeBSD is so easy it's almost like cheating. -- Andy Harrison ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 12:35:13AM -0400, Andy Harrison wrote: On 10/15/06, William Tracy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. Ah well, you have to experience it. No amount of convincing or intellectual gymnastics will help you. Know that in the software ecosystem there is a place for everything. There are situations in which you have to use linux and even Windoze. But things are so vibrant that more and more Windoze apps are available in linux and FreeBSD and also in NetBSD and OpenBSD. Personally for me linux has very good support for a wide range of TV cards, remote controls and other rare hardware. BSDs also have support but somewhat limited. FreeBSD gives you CCD,GEOM,GDBE, netgraph and various other features hard to find in other OSes. Some equivalents exist but not as good. OpenBSD has very good IPsec , pf , BGP and other networking stuff. pf is also available on FreeBSD but I doubt if it is as well integrated and feature rich as OpenBSD. Linux has a lousy file system and is somewhat unstable and will throw surprises if you stress it or use it in unexpected ways. Whereas BSDs have very very good stability. For instance FreeBSD will give roughly 20 to 30% better overall performance compared to Linux. This is subjective and dependent on various factors but this has been my experience. In terms of packages FreeBSD I think has the largest number since it can emulate linux binaries too. I can go on but I suggest you try things with an open mind. If you like it, stick to it , else go back. Nobody is forcing you. But remember, give it enough time and be open. regards, Girish ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's so compelling about FreeBSD?
Linux has iSCSI...which hands Fbsd a real beating in the server space. I work on projects at more customers than I can keep track of that -have- to use Linux in the middle of Fbsd farms just because of the amazing lack of iscsi support. Linux has been doing iscsi since what..2002 or so? Maybe 2003? C;mon..yes, I know a brave soul is starting work on it now, but how did the Fbsd effort let this lie for so long? On 10/15/06, Girish Venkatachalam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 12:35:13AM -0400, Andy Harrison wrote: On 10/15/06, William Tracy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, basically, I'm asking you guys to wow me. :-) Show me how FreeBSD can outdo Linux. Make me never want to go back. Ah well, you have to experience it. No amount of convincing or intellectual gymnastics will help you. Know that in the software ecosystem there is a place for everything. There are situations in which you have to use linux and even Windoze. But things are so vibrant that more and more Windoze apps are available in linux and FreeBSD and also in NetBSD and OpenBSD. Personally for me linux has very good support for a wide range of TV cards, remote controls and other rare hardware. BSDs also have support but somewhat limited. FreeBSD gives you CCD,GEOM,GDBE, netgraph and various other features hard to find in other OSes. Some equivalents exist but not as good. OpenBSD has very good IPsec , pf , BGP and other networking stuff. pf is also available on FreeBSD but I doubt if it is as well integrated and feature rich as OpenBSD. Linux has a lousy file system and is somewhat unstable and will throw surprises if you stress it or use it in unexpected ways. Whereas BSDs have very very good stability. For instance FreeBSD will give roughly 20 to 30% better overall performance compared to Linux. This is subjective and dependent on various factors but this has been my experience. In terms of packages FreeBSD I think has the largest number since it can emulate linux binaries too. I can go on but I suggest you try things with an open mind. If you like it, stick to it , else go back. Nobody is forcing you. But remember, give it enough time and be open. regards, Girish ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
