Re: Which disk is which
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 05:55:47 +0800, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: Hi, John ... As you cc'ed doc@, I'm sending your original mail to them also, so they'll have some background. Comments inline. John Summerfield wrote: I've booted a 5.2.1 miniinstall CD and got to the point where I choose which disk to install onto. My choices are ad0 da0 Great. How do I know which disk is which? _I_ could work it out if the panel displayed information such as Brand Capacity Read the *text* in the handbook. As an example, the following appears on the page that you linked in your recent crosspost to doc@: Consider what would happen if you had two IDE hard disks, one as the master on the first IDE controller, and one as the master on the second IDE controller. If FreeBSD numbered these as it found them, as ad0 and ad1 then everything would work. But if you then added a third disk, as the slave device on the first IDE controller, it would now be ad1, and the previous ad1 would This goes on for another 3-4 paragraphs; it is a discussion of why FreeBSD has basically hardcoded disk drive names/numbers into the kernel, (e.g., why IDE primary master will always be ad0, why secondary slave will always be ad3, etc). Then again, just above figure 2-16 (which is the same as figure 2-20 but without an X in the checkbox): Figure 2-16 http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/install-steps.html#SYSINSTALL-FDISK-DRIVE1 shows an example from a system with two IDE disks. They have been called ad0 and ad2. Based on reading these sections/statements of the manual, it would seem somewhat obvious that ad0 is the primary master IDE hard disk. It is hard, then, at least for me, to see this as a fault of the documentation. The drawback to this is that you're writing from the POV of someone who knows all this. I'm not, I don't. I have booted some other installers on this setup and find they do provide more information than the bare OS-dependant name. Ideally, on my system, the installer would say: AD0 Internal IDE drive, primary master, WD102AA 10.2 Gb DA0 External USB drive, Cypress ATMR04-0 40 Gb so most, even modestly, technical people could instantly recognise which disk is which. Not my intent to join in beating you about the head and shoulders, but what some folks have been trying to say (perhaps tersely, granted) is that you're writing to people who (1) all have lots of things to do in the Real World(tm), (2) have far less idea of how you think the documentation should read than you do, and (3) if they share your ideas about what the installer should show, which is not certain, haven't had time to do anything about it. Particularly regarding the installer, it would appear that the change you want is either not trivial, not a priority, or both. Here's how you ought to proceed: Regarding the documentation, read the Handbook and any other sources you can find regarding submitting a patch (a requested change) to the docs, do so, and see if someone with authority to make (commit) the change agrees with you. Regarding the installer, see if you can find someone (reading the freebsd-hackers mailing list might be a place to start) interested in and capable of making the types of changes you envision, who has time to spend on the project. Otherwise, things will remain as they are (actually not horrible from my point of view - absolutely there is a learning curve, but I strangely enjoy that sort of thing), since, as others have pointed out, you're dealing with volunteers. Hope this helps, Jud ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fwd: Re: Which disk is which
It seems we have a volunteer. ;-) Devon forgot to cc the list and has asked me to forward this. I snipped a bit near the beginning (hope that's OK with you, Devon). Jud On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:42:03 +0200, Devon H. O'Dell [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Jud [EMAIL PROTECTED] scribbled: On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 05:55:47 +0800, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: Hi, John ... As you cc'ed doc@, I'm sending your original mail to them also, so they'll have some background. Comments inline. John Summerfield wrote: [snip] Based on reading these sections/statements of the manual, it would seem somewhat obvious that ad0 is the primary master IDE hard disk. It is hard, then, at least for me, to see this as a fault of the documentation. The drawback to this is that you're writing from the POV of someone who knows all this. I'm not, I don't. I have booted some other installers on this setup and find they do provide more information than the bare OS-dependant name. Ideally, on my system, the installer would say: AD0 Internal IDE drive, primary master, WD102AA 10.2 Gb DA0 External USB drive, Cypress ATMR04-0 40 Gb so most, even modestly, technical people could instantly recognise which disk is which. Not my intent to join in beating you about the head and shoulders, but what some folks have been trying to say (perhaps tersely, granted) is that you're writing to people who (1) all have lots of things to do in the Real World(tm), (2) have far less idea of how you think the documentation should read than you do, and (3) if they share your ideas about what the installer should show, which is not certain, haven't had time to do anything about it. Particularly regarding the installer, it would appear that the change you want is either not trivial, not a priority, or both. Here's how you ought to proceed: Regarding the documentation, read the Handbook and any other sources you can find regarding submitting a patch (a requested change) to the docs, do so, and see if someone with authority to make (commit) the change agrees with you. Regarding the installer, see if you can find someone (reading the freebsd-hackers mailing list might be a place to start) interested in and capable of making the types of changes you envision, who has time to spend on the project. Otherwise, things will remain as they are (actually not horrible from my point of view - absolutely there is a learning curve, but I strangely enjoy that sort of thing), since, as others have pointed out, you're dealing with volunteers. Hope this helps, Jud Changes to the installer or documentation regarding this should not be difficult to implement. I agree that for a new user, this seems quite backwards. It is the perogative of most BSD users and developers that new users should ``RTFM''; indeed, most aren't used to this. Our new users are generally people with a good idea about how computers work who haven't had the need to read a manual through installation before. People coming from either a Linux, Mac or Windows camp will not be familiar with our naming of IDE and SCSI (and USB mass storage, which share SCSI namespace, which can also be confusing) devices. I'm not against the idea of people needing to learn our OS, but the installation procedure shouldn't be a curve at all -- it is a one time thing (at least for several days/weeks/months) for many new users. How is anybody to know that ad0 means IDE Disk 1 Channel 1 from the information that was pointed out in the manual. If one person has a problem with it, you can be fairly sure that a number of others have as well, and have simply kept their mouth shut (or went over to something else) for fear of lambastation. Take a look at the first statements of your reply: Not my intent to join in beating you about the head and shoulders, but what some folks have been trying to say (perhaps tersely, granted) is 1) ``I'm disclaiming myself if anything I say might offend you'', 2) ``I acknowledge that others have said offensive things to you''. This isn't the attitude we need to be bringing to people who are bringing problem reports to us. John: since you've been so kind as to bring the problem report to us, I'm sure we'd benefit from your input as to how it should be explained in documentation. I'd also be willing to help you privately with patching the installer to give a bit more information about the disks. -- Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Key: 4D3D8CA7 | IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Attachment2 Description: PGP signature ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which disk is which
What do u mean by difference? The device ad represents a IDE/ATA disk and the da device represents a SCSI disk. As you have got one IDE hard disk and one SCSI hard disk in your box, its showing up as ad0 and da0. But as you say that there is no SCSI in that box, then something seems to be wrong. Check your BIOS and disable any onboard SCSI controllers if present Regards S. On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:11:43 +0800, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Subhro wrote: Read the handbook buddy, its clearly given there that There is no call for that rudeness. I'm looking at http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/install-steps.html figure 2-20 which explains lots of things, but not the difference between ad and da devices. ad = IDE/ATA da = SCSI I have no SCSI in this box. Regards S. On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:18:39 +0800, John Summerfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've booted a 5.2.1 miniinstall CD and got to the point where I choose which disk to install onto. My choices are ad0 da0 Great. How do I know which disk is which? _I_ could work it out if the panel displayed information such as Brand Capacity Note: DOS names would be worse than useless because I don't use DOS, and the BIOS doesn't detect all my drives. The website doesn't help. I'm not on any list. Please respond by a) Fixing the web page b) Mailing me the necessary info (eg the fixed page when it's done) in case I can't discover by other means which is which. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Subhro Sankha Kar School of Information Technology Block AQ-13/1 Sector V ZIP 700091 India ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which disk is which
Subhro wrote: What do u mean by difference? That page does not mention da devices at all. The device ad represents a IDE/ATA disk and the da device represents a SCSI disk. As you have got one IDE hard disk and one SCSI hard disk in your box, its showing up as ad0 and da0. But as you say that there is no SCSI in that box, then something seems to be wrong. Check your BIOS and disable any onboard SCSI controllers if present There are no SCSI controllers. It's your basic cheap Acer desktop Pentium III of a few years ago. As I said already, I have no SCSI in this box. Regards S. On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:11:43 +0800, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Subhro wrote: Read the handbook buddy, its clearly given there that There is no call for that rudeness. I'm looking at http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/install-steps.html figure 2-20 which explains lots of things, but not the difference between ad and da devices. ad = IDE/ATA da = SCSI I have no SCSI in this box. Regards S. On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:18:39 +0800, John Summerfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've booted a 5.2.1 miniinstall CD and got to the point where I choose which disk to install onto. My choices are ad0 da0 Great. How do I know which disk is which? _I_ could work it out if the panel displayed information such as Brand Capacity Note: DOS names would be worse than useless because I don't use DOS, and the BIOS doesn't detect all my drives. The website doesn't help. I'm not on any list. Please respond by a) Fixing the web page b) Mailing me the necessary info (eg the fixed page when it's done) in case I can't discover by other means which is which. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which disk is which
Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: Hi, John ... As you cc'ed doc@, I'm sending your original mail to them also, so they'll have some background. Comments inline. John Summerfield wrote: I've booted a 5.2.1 miniinstall CD and got to the point where I choose which disk to install onto. My choices are ad0 da0 Great. How do I know which disk is which? _I_ could work it out if the panel displayed information such as Brand Capacity Read the *text* in the handbook. As an example, the following appears on the page that you linked in your recent crosspost to doc@: Consider what would happen if you had two IDE hard disks, one as the master on the first IDE controller, and one as the master on the second IDE controller. If FreeBSD numbered these as it found them, as ad0 and ad1 then everything would work. But if you then added a third disk, as the slave device on the first IDE controller, it would now be ad1, and the previous ad1 would This goes on for another 3-4 paragraphs; it is a discussion of why FreeBSD has basically hardcoded disk drive names/numbers into the kernel, (e.g., why IDE primary master will always be ad0, why secondary slave will always be ad3, etc). Then again, just above figure 2-16 (which is the same as figure 2-20 but without an X in the checkbox): Figure 2-16 http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/install-steps.html#SYSINSTALL-FDISK-DRIVE1 shows an example from a system with two IDE disks. They have been called ad0 and ad2. Based on reading these sections/statements of the manual, it would seem somewhat obvious that ad0 is the primary master IDE hard disk. It is hard, then, at least for me, to see this as a fault of the documentation. The drawback to this is that you're writing from the POV of someone who knows all this. I'm not, I don't. I have booted some other installers on this setup and find they do provide more information than the bare OS-dependant name. Ideally, on my system, the installer would say: AD0 Internal IDE drive, primary master, WD102AA 10.2 Gb DA0 External USB drive, Cypress ATMR04-0 40 Gb so most, even modestly, technical people could instantly recognise which disk is which. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which disk is which
Jerry McAllister wrote: I've booted a 5.2.1 miniinstall CD and got to the point where I choose which disk to install onto. My choices are ad0 da0 Great. How do I know which disk is which? OK ad0 would be the first ide drive and da0 would be the first SCSI drive or maybe the first USB drive. Thanks Jerry _I_ could work it out if the panel displayed information such as Brand Capacity Note: DOS names would be worse than useless because I don't use DOS, and the BIOS doesn't detect all my drives. If your BIOS doesn't detect your drives you have problems to deal with before you get to installing FreeBSD. The website doesn't help. I'm not on any list. Please respond by a) Fixing the web page b) Mailing me the necessary info (eg the fixed page when it's done) in case I can't discover by other means which is which. Try not giving orders to volunteers. It is tacky and won't get you anywhere.Maybe you should learn enough to fix the DOC yourself and submit a change. I'm new to FreeBSD and this is my first look at it. I think your suggestion a little tacky. I'm sorry that you felt I was giving orders, that was not my intent. In my defence though, as I said in another post, thought I was talking directly to someone responsible for the content, and explaining that I find that content confusing. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which disk is which
Jerry McAllister wrote: I've booted a 5.2.1 miniinstall CD and got to the point where I choose which disk to install onto. My choices are ad0 da0 Great. How do I know which disk is which? OK ad0 would be the first ide drive and da0 would be the first SCSI drive or maybe the first USB drive. Thanks Jerry The website doesn't help. I'm not on any list. Please respond by a) Fixing the web page b) Mailing me the necessary info (eg the fixed page when it's done) in case I can't discover by other means which is which. Try not giving orders to volunteers. It is tacky and won't get you anywhere.Maybe you should learn enough to fix the DOC yourself and submit a change. I'm new to FreeBSD and this is my first look at it. I think your suggestion a little tacky. It is the standard FreeBSD and other Freeware/open source suggestion. Since it is all done by volunteers, if you find something that needs improving, you are the first in line to do it. I'm sorry that you felt I was giving orders, that was not my intent. In my defence though, as I said in another post, thought I was talking directly to someone responsible for the content, and explaining that I find that content confusing. Live and learn. Newbie questions are welcome/encouraged, but remember you are getting help from those who doing it out of their own sense of community and support for the FreeBSD philosophy, not paid consultants. jerry ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Which disk is which
I've booted a 5.2.1 miniinstall CD and got to the point where I choose which disk to install onto. My choices are ad0 da0 Great. How do I know which disk is which? _I_ could work it out if the panel displayed information such as Brand Capacity Note: DOS names would be worse than useless because I don't use DOS, and the BIOS doesn't detect all my drives. The website doesn't help. I'm not on any list. Please respond by a) Fixing the web page b) Mailing me the necessary info (eg the fixed page when it's done) in case I can't discover by other means which is which. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which disk is which
On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:18:39 +0800, John Summerfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've booted a 5.2.1 miniinstall CD and got to the point where I choose which disk to install onto. My choices are ad0 da0 Great. How do I know which disk is which? _I_ could work it out if the panel displayed information such as Brand Capacity ad = ATA da = SCSI Note: DOS names would be worse than useless because I don't use DOS, and the BIOS doesn't detect all my drives. The website doesn't help. I'm not on any list. Please respond by a) Fixing the web page b) Mailing me the necessary info (eg the fixed page when it's done) in case I can't discover by other means which is which. -- Juha ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which disk is which
Read the handbook buddy, its clearly given there that ad = IDE/ATA da = SCSI Regards S. On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:18:39 +0800, John Summerfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've booted a 5.2.1 miniinstall CD and got to the point where I choose which disk to install onto. My choices are ad0 da0 Great. How do I know which disk is which? _I_ could work it out if the panel displayed information such as Brand Capacity Note: DOS names would be worse than useless because I don't use DOS, and the BIOS doesn't detect all my drives. The website doesn't help. I'm not on any list. Please respond by a) Fixing the web page b) Mailing me the necessary info (eg the fixed page when it's done) in case I can't discover by other means which is which. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Subhro Sankha Kar School of Information Technology Block AQ-13/1 Sector V ZIP 700091 India ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
