Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Peter N. M. Hansteen writes: copyright assignment isn't entirely doable in all jurisdictions, and beside the point. Generally, commercial rights can always be assigned. Moral rights often cannot be assigned, but since they are practically worthless, this usually isn't a problem. i assume you have been told about the 'published under a license' phenomenon. You need written documentation of a license, signed by the copyright holder. You need this for every module or group of modules that is copyrighted by any specific person or entity. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
On 12 Feb 2005, at 07:12, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: With BSD, the copyrights on it are held by the University of Berkeley and by the FreeBSD Project. Really? Grepped for Copyright in /usr/src recently? Ceri ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Ceri Davies writes: Really? Grepped for Copyright in /usr/src recently? Wow! What a mess! How much would it cost to have a team of lawyers verify that all those copyrights are cleared? Why are people asserting their own copyrights in the code? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why are people asserting their own copyrights in the code? Because they wrote the software in question, perhaps? -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ http://www.datadok.no/ http://www.nuug.no/ First, we kill all the spammers The Usenet Bard, Twice-forwarded tales ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 05:02:19PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Ceri Davies writes: Really? Grepped for Copyright in /usr/src recently? Wow! What a mess! How much would it cost to have a team of lawyers verify that all those copyrights are cleared? Why are people asserting their own copyrights in the code? Uh, because they're the author, of course. Kris pgpykFPfy16T2.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Peter N. M. Hansteen writes: Because they wrote the software in question, perhaps? So? If it's truly open source, the copyrights should be assigned. All it takes is one copyright holder who withdraws a license and an entire package can become unusable. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
* Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] [0216 21:16]: Peter N. M. Hansteen writes: Because they wrote the software in question, perhaps? So? If it's truly open source, the copyrights should be assigned. All it takes is one copyright holder who withdraws a license and an entire package can become unusable. Shut up now, ok? or take it elsewhere. -- 'A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction into a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.' -- Calvin discovers Usenet Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Dick Davies writes: Shut up now, ok? or take it elsewhere. Don't forget discovery. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Because they wrote the software in question, perhaps? So? If it's truly open source, the copyrights should be assigned. copyright assignment isn't entirely doable in all jurisdictions, and beside the point. All it takes is one copyright holder who withdraws a license and an entire package can become unusable. i assume you have been told about the 'published under a license' phenomenon. To me it sounds like you need to read up on a few things. -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ http://www.datadok.no/ http://www.nuug.no/ First, we kill all the spammers The Usenet Bard, Twice-forwarded tales ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: With BSD, the copyrights on it are held by the University of Berkeley and by the FreeBSD Project. No, they aren't. RTFS. Just a couple of examples: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Dag-Erling' /usr/src | wc -l 59 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Poul.Henning' /usr/src | wc -l 109 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Matt.*Dillon' /usr/src | wc -l 30 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Network.*Associates' /usr/src | wc -l 334 (about a third of the code in the latter category was written by yours truly under contract) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dag-Erling Smørgrav Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 3:12 AM To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Robert Marella; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Garance A Drosehn Subject: Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!! Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: With BSD, the copyrights on it are held by the University of Berkeley and by the FreeBSD Project. No, they aren't. RTFS. Just a couple of examples: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Dag-Erling' /usr/src | wc -l 59 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Poul.Henning' /usr/src | wc -l 109 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Matt.*Dillon' /usr/src | wc -l 30 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~% grep -r 'Copyright.*Network.*Associates' /usr/src | wc -l 334 (about a third of the code in the latter category was written by yours truly under contract) OK, so I didn't go look at every little port and piece in the project. I was trying to dumb the explanation down for someone who was quite obviously totally clueless about the philosophy of the software he was using. It was not to denegrate any contribution that anyone has made. But this does point out that you people when you put your stuff into the distribution and you don't assign over the copyright to The FreeBSD Project, that you need to submit this to the documentation people so they can update http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/index.html I don't see why you are so proud of not doing this. Is it your intention to cause problems for companies that want to use FreeBSD in their products? This sort of thing is exactly what the chicken littles like Anthony are talking about. It isn't going to matter to some lawyer charged with vetting the code to make sure that using it in a company's project is OK, that your and the other's copyright is equivalent to the BSD one. He is going to see this and wonder why it wasn't disclosed in the docs where it should have been, and what else is being hidden. And in any case, if you want to get into this, the C compiler carries GPL without which it is impossible to build the OS, and as that copyright is fundamentally different than either the BSD copyrights, or the copyrights of yourself and the others listed, it is a much more serious issue and I don't understand why you didn't bring it up. Although, at least, it IS disclosed in the appropriate place on the website. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: I don't see why you are so proud of not doing this. Is it your intention to cause problems for companies that want to use FreeBSD in their products? This sort of thing is exactly what the chicken littles like Anthony are talking about. It surprises and worries me that anyone does it, for precisely the reasons that you describe. Should I ever contribute code to FreeBSD, I'll just assign the copyright, or release the code to the public domain. I have to wonder about the motivations of someone who says he wants to contribute to a Great Cause but then insists on retaining his copyright. Remember that in some jurisdictions, copyright reverts to the author after a certain number of years, no matter what he says to the contrary. This includes the U.S.; see 17 USC 203. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
On Saturday 12 February 2005 12:46, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: I don't see why you are so proud of not doing this. Is it your intention to cause problems for companies that want to use FreeBSD in their products? This sort of thing is exactly what the chicken littles like Anthony are talking about. It surprises and worries me that anyone does it, for precisely the reasons that you describe. Should I ever contribute code to FreeBSD, I'll just assign the copyright, or release the code to the public domain. I have to wonder about the motivations of someone who says he wants to contribute to a Great Cause but then insists on retaining his copyright. Remember that in some jurisdictions, copyright reverts to the author after a certain number of years, no matter what he says to the contrary. This includes the U.S.; see 17 USC 203. from the mailling list info :- freebsd-chatNon-technical items related to the FreeBSD community freebsd-questions User questions and technical support I think it should be clear where this conversation belongs. The issues you are discussing are emphatically non-technical. Please? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't see why you are so proud of not doing this. Is it your intention to cause problems for companies that want to use FreeBSD in their products? This sort of thing is exactly what the chicken littles like Anthony are talking about. It isn't going to matter to some lawyer charged with vetting the code to make sure that using it in a company's project is OK, that your and the other's copyright is equivalent to the BSD one. He is going to see this and wonder why it wasn't disclosed in the docs where it should have been, and what else is being hidden. You need to understand the difference between copyright and license, and stop looking for black helicopters. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 23:12 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Why in the world should I expect to be able to vote on whether a new logo is adopted or not? I will tell you exactly why and it is one of the most exciting reasons to use FreeBSD. mucho snipo It is EVERYONE WHO CONTRIBUTES ANYTHING TO FREEBSD. You, me, anyone who wants to be involved in the FreeBSD Project, all you need to do is start contributing and YOU ARE IN IT!!! Thus, FREEBSD BELONGS TO YOU!! That's, right YOU!! Your a member of the FreeBSD Project - you are one of the owners of the FreeBSD code. That's it, simple as that. So, of course you should have a vote. Ted Let me be the first to nominate Ted as the ballot magistrate. He will decide who gets to vote by how they have committed to the project. Unless he wants to open it up to every man, woman, and child who has access to the internet. I guess then we wouldn't need a magistrate. Robert ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It surprises and worries me that anyone does it, for precisely the reasons that you describe. Should I ever contribute code to FreeBSD, I'll just assign the copyright To whom? The FreeBSD project is not a legal entity. or release the code to the public domain. That is a very bad idea, because you can't disclaim liability for work which you release in the public domain. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: You need to understand the difference between copyright and license, and stop looking for black helicopters. There isn't any difference. Without copyrights, there are no licenses; without licenses, there are no copyrights. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: To whom? The FreeBSD project is not a legal entity. Then I can release it to the public domain. That is a very bad idea, because you can't disclaim liability for work which you release in the public domain. Whether you retain or relinquish the copyright has no effect on your liability. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: You need to understand the difference between copyright and license, and stop looking for black helicopters. There isn't any difference. Without copyrights, there are no licenses; without licenses, there are no copyrights. A = copyright, B = license. A != B. If this still does not make it clear, go look up the words or talk to somebody who knows the difference and is willing to explain it to you. Until then, your comments resemble someone who is color-blind explaining that there is no difference between red and green to people who possess normal sight. For all of the sound and fury of these threads, I don't see any code being written, any PRs being filed, or any technical questions being asked. Please use chat or advocacy. -- -Chuck PS: I want a pony, too! ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
Chuck Swiger writes: A = copyright, B = license. A != B. A license is limited permission to use copyrighted material. A copyright is the right to restrict the use of material without a license. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Robert Marella Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 2:16 PM To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Garance A Drosehn Subject: RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!! On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 21:31 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: What if they put it to a vote and the userbase all votes for logos that clearly represent the Beastie image? What will have been the point of the contest? I am a FreeBSD user. I read and sometimes respond to several of the lists. I have donated money and will continue to donate money to FreeBSD no matter what the logo will be. I also donate money and volunteer my time to Hospice. I do not get nor expect to be able to vote on any issues that may arise at a board meeting for The Hospice of Kona. Why in the world should I expect to be able to vote on whether a new logo is adopted or not? I will tell you exactly why and it is one of the most exciting reasons to use FreeBSD. With almost ALL OTHER so-called open source projects, and this includes Linux, Apple's open source, etc. the source code copyright is held by a company or an individual, not by a non-profit that specifically exists for the purpose of holding the copyright in public trust. The exceptions are, of course, the HANDFUL of GNU utilities (such as gcc) where the copyright was assigned over to the FSF by the authors. Most of this code is also under the GPL, which is a restrictive license, not an open one. Because of this, LOTS of situations exist such as MySQL AB, where the owners of the copyright - in this case Mysql AB - license mysql out to companies. At the same time they issue mysql under the GPL. Of course, as long as they continue feeding the advances that are driven by their commercial customers back into the open source code that is under the GPL, then everything is great for the rest of us. But, NOTHING prevents them from simply NOT doing this. Even the Linux kernel itself remains copyrighted by Linus Torvalds. So what you say, Linus would never do anything to harm Linux so why does this matter? Well, unfortunately the copyright on the Linux kernel is going to supersede Linus's lifespan. His heirs will determine what happens to it. He has shown no interest in donating it to the FSF. So what you say, the GPL-licensed Linux kernel will just immediately fork if his heirs try going after anybody. Yes, that will happen. Then for the next 20 years the heirs will file lawsuits that will make the SCO-suing-IBM lawsuit look like child's play. Imagine how the FUD will affect commercial users. And I'm sorry to say but forking WON'T remove the heir's copyright on Linux - all it will do is make it possible to continue adding new stuff to it. This could potentially happen to ANY GPL software that has a copyright retained by the developer. The GPL has NEVER YET BEEN TESTED IN COURT. The FSF in fact has an entire team of lawyers that specialize in out-of-court settlements SPECIFICALLY TO PREVENT the GPL from EVER being legally tested. So far this HAS worked because all plaintiffs have had their price. But sooner or later a plaintiff will come along that will not give a crap how much money the FSF offers them, they will insist on going to trial and having a judge decide. If the judge then rules the GPL is a pile of dog poop - imagine what will happen. In fact, no less than the FSF themselves, STRONGLY ENCOURAGE anyone licensing their code under GPL to donate the copyright to the FSF simply to avoid this kind of problem. Very few so far have done so. With BSD, the copyrights on it are held by the University of Berkeley and by the FreeBSD Project. The COPYRIGHT, (not the license) is SPECIFICALLY written to PERMIT COMPLETELY UNRESTRICTED USE of the code - with the one exception - that is if you use any BSD code in your product, that YOUR OWN COPYRIGHT MUST mention that some of the code is copyrighted by UCB and the FreeBSD Project. YOU ARE NOT PREVENTED FROM ANY REDISTRIBUTION of the software. Meaning that you can use it and sell it the SAME as if you wrote a product from scratch and sold it. And here is the best part: WHO makes up The FreeBSD Project? Is it the committers? NO Is it UCB? NO Is it any single developer? NO It is EVERYONE WHO CONTRIBUTES ANYTHING TO FREEBSD. You, me, anyone who wants to be involved in the FreeBSD Project, all you need to do is start contributing and YOU ARE IN IT!!! Thus, FREEBSD BELONGS TO YOU!! That's, right YOU!! Your a member of the FreeBSD Project - you are one of the owners of the FreeBSD code. That's it, simple as that. So, of course you should have a vote. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
