Re: re changing from vista
On Sun, 2008-11-16 at 11:38 -0800, Charlie Kester wrote: * Jeremy Chadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-11-14 14:56:26 -0800]: opinion But why are we interested in converting people? That borders on religious, which an operating system should not be. I'm not saying we don't need new users -- I'm saying: if we took half the energy used converting people and applied it to fixing bugs and improving FreeBSD, there wouldn't be a need to convert. Build it (and secure/stabilise it) and they will come. Indeed, what IS the value of more users to a volunteer project like FreeBSD? Microsoft, Apple, etc. want more users on their OS because it increases their profits. But who gets more money if ten thousand users switch to FreeBSD? FreeBSD already has a large enough user base to attract the attention of developers deciding which platforms to target with their apps. But even if it didn't, it has a large developer community of its own, and they've done a great job porting apps, as well as creating new apps themselves. New users who are also developers can contribute to this effort, so it makes sense to actively recruit them. But why should we want to increase the number of ordinary, non-developer users? If these new users also contribute to the project, by working on documentation or other non-programming tasks, then it makes sense to actively recruit them too. Perhaps there's an implicit calculation that only x percent of new users will actually contribute to the project, so if you want/need C new contributors, you should aim to recruit N = C / x new users. Some of the comments in this thread have expressed one of the problems new users can bring: an expectation and demand that things work the way they used to on their old OS. People who voice these concerns want to preserve the Unix philosophy and culture, so they don't welcome immigrants who refuse to assimilate. They don't see those immigrants as potential contributors to the project; they see them as people who want to replace it with a different project altogether. ...which perhaps explains why some people want to impose something like a Unix citizenship test. Users can also contribute by helping to refine the requirements for software. For example, my son is an animator and he and I have often discussed various graphics tools. In his opinion, the Gimp is a powerful tool which provides almost every tool or technique an artist might want, but it's unusable because its user interface doesn't reflect the way artists actually do their work. He says this isn't just that they're used to Photoshop or whatever; there's something about the nature of the task that the Gimp fails to accommodate in a natural, effortless way. He says the Gimp feels like a tool designed by software engineers rather than artists. We need users like that, who aren't developers but who are experts in their own domain. How much of FreeBSD's strength as a server derives from the fact that so many of its users have been sysadmins with a keen awareness of the day-to-day problems in that domain? (It's also been an important fact that many of them are developers too.) So when new users appear and start requesting changes to make things more like the system they came from, we shouldn't automatically classify them as unassimilable immigrants. We should try to understand what they're really looking for, and whether or how our current software supports it. It's especially important to understand why they left their old home. What was the need that inspired them to consider a change? How did their old OS fail to meet that need? Sometimes our answer to them is going to be, No, sorry, our project isn't designed to do that or That isn't one of our project's goals. Maybe you should consider Project Y instead. There's nothing wrong with that kind of answer. It's coheres with the Unix philosophy of clarity of purpose (e.g., tools that do one thing and do it well.) So, in conclusion, we DON'T need new users because growing the userbase is good in itself. Sometimes growth is cancerous, and kills the body. We DO need new users insofar as they help us meet the goals of our project. (And sometimes new users suggest new goals for us to pursue.) -- Charlie Thats a very good point, and in my own case I'm not here to leach off the systems here. I make points of driver issues, but I so far have lacked the abilities to change this; ergo I turn to the lists... That won't be forever, my skills as a developer have grown and now its simply a matter of time to work on these projects. I have a skill such as mentioned here, in the manner of my users have a great deal of experience in their fields (including myself) and can make valid suggestions as to how to make things better. Better yet I'm trying enact some of those suggestions and test them locally with the users. I'm also trying to train my users to use
Re: re changing from vista
On Sun, 2008-11-16 at 11:54 -0800, Charlie Kester wrote: * Da Rock [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-11-16 15:21:27 +1000]: The reason for sending the OP to linux first is they will not be deterred by the driver and hardware issues. Linux IS easier in this way, and has a greater support for hardware that is used outside of a server environment. It also allows them to learn the *nix methodology and software. To the extent that Linux succeeds in making things just work, it will prevent or at least delay the user's learning the Unix way. Most of us got our Unix knowledge the old-fashioned way: we earned it. We stumbled over one problem or another and fought our way through to a solution. When things just work, only the technically curious will explore beneath the hood to see exactly how they work. Maybe we shouldn't make it a goal that every user should have that kind of deep-water knowledge? Should it really be a goal that every user become familiar with the shell and commandline tools? Why not let them live happily ever after in a point-and-click world? Maybe, but they will still hit some issues, and they will still find things very different than what they're used to in windows- this in itself is deep enough water for most that are very M$-centric. Why make it harder? Let them get used to the environment, see what actually happens when things are plugged in and what not, then eventually they will be forced to go to the cli to do exactly what they want. Once they get passed the initial chill of the water then they can ease into the *nix methods on the cli, and then they will be more comfortable to use Unix outright, solve the issues with the hardware/software/uses they wish to put it to. Maybe we differ in opinion just a little this way... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Sun, 2008-11-16 at 22:53 +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: Still it goes, the OP is trying to get away from MS-Win, not find some non-MS clone in EVERY such post i see exactly opposite. they want windoze clones! they don't ask about how to learn unix, what to read, they didn't read even basic manuals, or if so - just glanced. actually - there is a market niche for true non-microsoft windoze clone! it's strange noone try to fill it. it's millions of $ to earn! Try ReactOS- it's exactly that. I think its a version of Wine on steroids... Also I think thats what Xandros and some of it's partners are doing. something working like windoze, running windoze .exe/.dll binaries and windows compatible installer but for example not requiring gig of RAM, powerful CPU running 10 times faster (not difficult to achieve) etc... i remember many years ago installing linux first time (linux was quite good that time). i spent 2 months on it reading everything needed and learning BEFORE asking questions on mailing lists! because i knew nothing about unix at first. I knew only DOS and windoze 95 before, DOS isn't an OS at all, but that is adventage too. but i needed something that made full use of my 25Mhz 486. Windoze definitely wasn't good in it. it just wasted hardware resources giving nothing. that's why i tried to seek something different. and found linux.. after some time NetBSD, then FreeBSD. today - most of these wannabe-FreeBSD-users just don't want to pay for windoze. nothing else! ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
Try ReactOS- it's exactly that. I think its a version of Wine on steroids... does it really work - i mean all (or most at least) programs work. can user simply put say - M$ Office CD/DVD and click setup? if yes - they NEED MORE ADVERTISEMENT. i will check it today on second disk. if it's OK i will start recommending it all people i know that use windoze. thanks for info. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 10:23:07AM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: Try ReactOS- it's exactly that. I think its a version of Wine on steroids... does it really work - i mean all (or most at least) programs work. can user simply put say - M$ Office CD/DVD and click setup? if yes - they NEED MORE ADVERTISEMENT. i will check it today on second disk. if it's OK i will start recommending it all people i know that use windoze. ReactOS is somewhat of a joke at this point. I've personally tried it, and I cannot see how it can be taken seriously until its cleaned up and made much more user-friendly. There's also been some developer drama in recent days, which literally halted the project for months on end, and I don't know what became of that. But does it work (e.x. does it function)? Yes, it does. -- | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
Try ReactOS- it's exactly that. well it's an alpha state now as stated on their webpage. i wish they will finalize it withing reasonable time. it would be great. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
ReactOS is somewhat of a joke at this point. I've personally tried it, and I cannot see how it can be taken seriously until its cleaned up and made much more user-friendly. There's also been some developer drama in recent days, which literally halted the project for months on end, and I don't know what became of that. quite bad, as their donation page. if they want to do something real then more people (but less than 10) are needed and finally implement all functionality. they could sell it, instead of begging for donations But does it work (e.x. does it function)? Yes, it does. -- | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 22:41:27 +0100 (CET) Wojciech Puchar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: improving FreeBSD, there wouldn't be a need to convert. Build it (and secure/stabilise it) and they will come. Indeed, what IS the value of more users to a volunteer project like FreeBSD? to some level - better driver support. but windows-converters-seeking-for-nicer-windows don't write drivers. this level is OK, more users can make only harm. exactly what happened with linux. as heavyweight sponsors did. they pay but request not just adding drivers but to add strange-but-trendy features and solutions that take system's quality down quickly. exactly that happened to NetBSD. i recently installed newest NetBSD version just to look at it. it was damn slow and even slower under high load!! not mentioning linux that got just billion$ total sposoring from IBM. Could you point out some of those strange-but-trendy features? I tried Ubuntu for a while on my laptop and it more or less Just Works. It boots up quickly, detects all my devices, has accelerated 3D etc. Now I did move back to FreeBSD because I had problems with its autodetection system - in particular the graphics card wasn't configured properly. But that's a problem with Ubuntu specifically, and I could just as easily have switched to Debian or Gentoo where more manual configuration is required - just like in FreeBSD. One of the strengths of Linux is that if you find one of the new trendy features doesn't work, you can generally just build a new kernel - without including it. If it's user-space you don't like - well, that's a problem with the distribution, not linux itself. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: changing from vista
From: Bruce Cran [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:35:02 AM Could you point out some of those strange-but-trendy features? I tried Ubuntu for a while on my laptop and it more or less Just Works. It boots up quickly, detects all my devices, has accelerated 3D etc. Now I did move back to FreeBSD because I had problems with its autodetection system - in particular the graphics card wasn't configured properly. But that's a problem with Ubuntu specifically, and I could just as easily have switched to Debian or Gentoo where more manual configuration is required - just like in FreeBSD. One of the strengths of Linux is that if you find one of the new trendy features doesn't work, you can generally just build a new kernel - without including it. Unfortunately, the inability to be able to include the feature / improvement is also a negative factor. If it's user-space you don't like - well, that's a problem with the distribution, not linux itself. -- Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Mon, 2008-11-17 at 10:23 +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: Try ReactOS- it's exactly that. I think its a version of Wine on steroids... does it really work - i mean all (or most at least) programs work. can user simply put say - M$ Office CD/DVD and click setup? if yes - they NEED MORE ADVERTISEMENT. i will check it today on second disk. if it's OK i will start recommending it all people i know that use windoze. thanks for info. Its currently a VM image so just use that - saves scratching a hard drive... Go to the vmware site and its located in the appliances section. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Mon, 2008-11-17 at 10:40 +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: ReactOS is somewhat of a joke at this point. I've personally tried it, and I cannot see how it can be taken seriously until its cleaned up and made much more user-friendly. There's also been some developer drama in recent days, which literally halted the project for months on end, and I don't know what became of that. quite bad, as their donation page. if they want to do something real then more people (but less than 10) are needed and finally implement all functionality. they could sell it, instead of begging for donations If you start selling software like that, you end up just like another M $. Me personally I don't like the software and system introduced by M$, so thats why I've moved to more secure systems like FOSS. I'd rather spend my time working with a community like this fixing issues than wasting time solving issues with win32 setups which simply don't hold water. But does it work (e.x. does it function)? Yes, it does. -- | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
they could sell it, instead of begging for donations If you start selling software like that, you end up just like another M $. of course not like that. but with total of ca 2000$ donations over 2 years it doesn't make sense. Me personally I don't like the software and system introduced by M$, so thats why I've moved to more secure systems like FOSS. I'd rather spend my time working with a community like this fixing issues than wasting time solving issues with win32 setups which simply don't hold water. me too. i don't use windows and windows-like environments. but again - there is a place for competition on that field. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
not mentioning linux that got just billion$ total sposoring from IBM. Could you point out some of those strange-but-trendy features? I tried Ubuntu for a while on my laptop and it more or less Just Works. It very slow and badly under high load ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 16:39 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 08:00:23AM +1000, Da Rock wrote: On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 11:58 +0100, peter wrote: Dear sirs please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows vista but i cannot understand which system to use i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software kind regards Peter Welcome to the free world Peter! FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off. This means that you will have a very steep learning curve. This list is /very/ helpful, others may not be so friendly or helpful. This is great for newbies who need some real help in getting to know their system and fixing problems, but there are times when even this is not enough if you don't have enough experience with the system. My advice is this: get used to the *nix (linux, unix and other derivatives) systems and how they do things, and the best way to do this is to use linux which is like a halfway house for windows users. The software available for all systems is HUGE. And all this software will usually run on both systems. The difference is linux will take care of a lot of maintenance for you (like vista), but still allows you to get your hands dirty hacking the system to your hearts content. This is not to deter you from using FreeBSD - linux is a tough system when compared to windows, but FreeBSD is even tougher; bit like comparing a tank to fort knox. But the ease of use and experience you'll gain from using linux will be more forgiving than using FreeBSD. This is just wrong.I have always found FreeBSD to be easier to install and configure the way I want it that the Red Hat or Suse I often have to use for some servers at work. Amen to that. I've converted many Ubuntu users who had shot themselves in the foot. They are now happy freeBSD users. YMMV ed You can learn them all if you want and use them all. But, don't be bullied in to believing that FreeBSD is any harder than the Lunix flavors out there. The reason for sending the OP to linux first is they will not be deterred by the driver and hardware issues. Linux IS easier in this way, and has a greater support for hardware that is used outside of a server environment. It also allows them to learn the *nix methodology and software. I think FreeBSD is great, but when you hit hardware issues - particularly new hardware - linux has the greater support for the new user. And there is no reason to hide heads in the sand, especially with new desktop hardware like multimedia (which is growing in popularity for the average user), support will come but it will take time. I have to use Fedora (of all systems) on some of my units because it is still more hands on and it supports my tv card and other multimedia hardware. Where I don't need this I use FreeBSD, and then I will eventually get around to perhaps writing drivers for the hardware I use. I appreciate your views, but I face these issues all the time and I wish all the time that I could use the stability of FreeBSD to run the multimedia systems I run. As a new user once myself at one stage I remember how frustrating it was to just get some stuff running I used regularly and how hard it was (and even then still not quite right) to get it doing what I needed. For a server and workstation its fantastic, but for some home uses it ran out of features, ergo linux backup. Plus learning linux taught me even more about the advantages and abilities of FreeBSD and how to make it work. jerry My suggestion would be to get used to the *nixes with Ubuntu or even PCBSD (which is a FreeBSD variant for newer users), once you have gotten used to that give yourself another steep learning curve and jump to the final level of FreeBSD straight-up :) Keep in touch with this list and you'll get all your questions answered no matter how ridiculous they may seem to the seasoned users here, and the Ubuntu list is nearly as helpful from my observation (hence my recommendation). Once you have the experience you'll definitely want FreeBSD for its security, stability, and more. You can run a desktop, a server, or just about whatever you want on it. The possibilties are endless with nearly any *nix system, but the stability can only be found with BSD. Good luck with your endeavours and welcome, again ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To
Re: re changing from vista
and (sometimes) from linux to FreeBSD. But not from Windows. Come on, lose your thickness and let the guy be free from Vista. I DO NOT say don't free from microsoft! you may change Toyota to Nissan, and just sit down and drive. But you can't change windoze to unix without learning unix from scratch. Unix is completely different way of computing. 1000 times better IMHO, but you HAVE to learn it from scratch. All this windoze-like desktop environments like KDE, Gnome etc. is just crap and nonsense. Use unix as unix. it's great. but learn it. It is NOT an alternative to windoze! ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
no - because it's not alternative for Windows Vista. He is trying to get out of Vista, not trying to be Vista with another name. well this is a big difference. XP is few years less of f...ng up software :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
Excuse me for entering this discussin. You're completely right in what you're saying, and I'ld like to add this: On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 21:03:45 -0500, Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, let him learn a meaningful server environment. FreeBSD isn't a server only OS, it's versatile and can be used as an excellent desktop solution. That's what I'm doing since 4.0 - using it exclusively (!) on the desktop. And it's completely possible without the feeling to have something missing. I'm not joking at you, that's my real individual experience. I changed from Linux to FreeBSD, so I had good basic knowledge, and I never had used any Windows before, so I wasn't spoiled by MICROS~1's strange concepts of how to do certain things, so I cannot speak for the vast majority of computer users. :-) To summarize: Unlike the different Windows things, you can use FreeBSD as a desktop, as a server, and for any mixed form of these appliances without any problems. Of course, you'll have to learn *how* to do this, but it's not that you can't learn or do it. FreeBSD will open the door for you to other interesting fields of information technology. The things you've learned using FreeBSD will help you using OpenBSD or NetBSD, or Solaris and oder UNIXes. If you've understood the generic principles, the whole world is open to you. FreeBSD always meant fun to me using the computer. I hope you'll feel so, too. In a world without walls and fences - who needs windows and gates?! :-) Don't be frightened, try out FreeBSD. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 01:00:34PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: and (sometimes) from linux to FreeBSD. But not from Windows. Come on, lose your thickness and let the guy be free from Vista. I DO NOT say don't free from microsoft! you may change Toyota to Nissan, and just sit down and drive. But you can't change windoze to unix without learning unix from scratch. Unix is completely different way of computing. 1000 times better IMHO, but you HAVE to learn it from scratch. All this windoze-like desktop environments like KDE, Gnome etc. is just crap and nonsense. Use unix as unix. it's great. but learn it. It is NOT an alternative to windoze! Still it goes, the OP is trying to get away from MS-Win, not find some non-MS clone.So, why are you trying so hard to continue to stick him with something MS-Win. Allow the guy some freedom to move out of that mess without trying to play word games about alternatives on him. If he wants out of MS, then let him out of MS and not consign him to something he doesn't want. jerry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 03:21:27PM +1000, Da Rock wrote: On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 16:39 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 08:00:23AM +1000, Da Rock wrote: On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 11:58 +0100, peter wrote: Dear sirs please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows vista but i cannot understand which system to use i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software kind regards Peter Welcome to the free world Peter! FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off. This means that you will have a very steep learning curve. This list is /very/ helpful, others may not be so friendly or helpful. This is great for newbies who need some real help in getting to know their system and fixing problems, but there are times when even this is not enough if you don't have enough experience with the system. My advice is this: get used to the *nix (linux, unix and other derivatives) systems and how they do things, and the best way to do this is to use linux which is like a halfway house for windows users. The software available for all systems is HUGE. And all this software will usually run on both systems. The difference is linux will take care of a lot of maintenance for you (like vista), but still allows you to get your hands dirty hacking the system to your hearts content. This is not to deter you from using FreeBSD - linux is a tough system when compared to windows, but FreeBSD is even tougher; bit like comparing a tank to fort knox. But the ease of use and experience you'll gain from using linux will be more forgiving than using FreeBSD. This is just wrong.I have always found FreeBSD to be easier to install and configure the way I want it that the Red Hat or Suse I often have to use for some servers at work. Amen to that. I've converted many Ubuntu users who had shot themselves in the foot. They are now happy freeBSD users. YMMV ed You can learn them all if you want and use them all. But, don't be bullied in to believing that FreeBSD is any harder than the Lunix flavors out there. The reason for sending the OP to linux first is they will not be deterred by the driver and hardware issues. Linux IS easier in this way, and has a greater support for hardware that is used outside of a server environment. It also allows them to learn the *nix methodology and software. Sure they will. Linux has lots of driver lag problems. All but the most obscure hardware will run FreeBSD just fine too. We have had lots of battles with Redhat and Suse. jerry I think FreeBSD is great, but when you hit hardware issues - particularly new hardware - linux has the greater support for the new user. And there is no reason to hide heads in the sand, especially with new desktop hardware like multimedia (which is growing in popularity for the average user), support will come but it will take time. I have to use Fedora (of all systems) on some of my units because it is still more hands on and it supports my tv card and other multimedia hardware. Where I don't need this I use FreeBSD, and then I will eventually get around to perhaps writing drivers for the hardware I use. I appreciate your views, but I face these issues all the time and I wish all the time that I could use the stability of FreeBSD to run the multimedia systems I run. As a new user once myself at one stage I remember how frustrating it was to just get some stuff running I used regularly and how hard it was (and even then still not quite right) to get it doing what I needed. For a server and workstation its fantastic, but for some home uses it ran out of features, ergo linux backup. Plus learning linux taught me even more about the advantages and abilities of FreeBSD and how to make it work. jerry My suggestion would be to get used to the *nixes with Ubuntu or even PCBSD (which is a FreeBSD variant for newer users), once you have gotten used to that give yourself another steep learning curve and jump to the final level of FreeBSD straight-up :) Keep in touch with this list and you'll get all your questions answered no matter how ridiculous they may seem to the seasoned users here, and the Ubuntu list is nearly as helpful from my observation (hence my recommendation). Once you have the experience you'll definitely want FreeBSD for its security, stability, and more. You can run a desktop, a server, or just about whatever you want on it. The possibilties are endless with nearly any *nix system, but the stability can only be found with BSD. Good luck with your endeavours and welcome, again
Re: re changing from vista
* Jeremy Chadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-11-14 14:56:26 -0800]: opinion But why are we interested in converting people? That borders on religious, which an operating system should not be. I'm not saying we don't need new users -- I'm saying: if we took half the energy used converting people and applied it to fixing bugs and improving FreeBSD, there wouldn't be a need to convert. Build it (and secure/stabilise it) and they will come. Indeed, what IS the value of more users to a volunteer project like FreeBSD? Microsoft, Apple, etc. want more users on their OS because it increases their profits. But who gets more money if ten thousand users switch to FreeBSD? FreeBSD already has a large enough user base to attract the attention of developers deciding which platforms to target with their apps. But even if it didn't, it has a large developer community of its own, and they've done a great job porting apps, as well as creating new apps themselves. New users who are also developers can contribute to this effort, so it makes sense to actively recruit them. But why should we want to increase the number of ordinary, non-developer users? If these new users also contribute to the project, by working on documentation or other non-programming tasks, then it makes sense to actively recruit them too. Perhaps there's an implicit calculation that only x percent of new users will actually contribute to the project, so if you want/need C new contributors, you should aim to recruit N = C / x new users. Some of the comments in this thread have expressed one of the problems new users can bring: an expectation and demand that things work the way they used to on their old OS. People who voice these concerns want to preserve the Unix philosophy and culture, so they don't welcome immigrants who refuse to assimilate. They don't see those immigrants as potential contributors to the project; they see them as people who want to replace it with a different project altogether. ...which perhaps explains why some people want to impose something like a Unix citizenship test. Users can also contribute by helping to refine the requirements for software. For example, my son is an animator and he and I have often discussed various graphics tools. In his opinion, the Gimp is a powerful tool which provides almost every tool or technique an artist might want, but it's unusable because its user interface doesn't reflect the way artists actually do their work. He says this isn't just that they're used to Photoshop or whatever; there's something about the nature of the task that the Gimp fails to accommodate in a natural, effortless way. He says the Gimp feels like a tool designed by software engineers rather than artists. We need users like that, who aren't developers but who are experts in their own domain. How much of FreeBSD's strength as a server derives from the fact that so many of its users have been sysadmins with a keen awareness of the day-to-day problems in that domain? (It's also been an important fact that many of them are developers too.) So when new users appear and start requesting changes to make things more like the system they came from, we shouldn't automatically classify them as unassimilable immigrants. We should try to understand what they're really looking for, and whether or how our current software supports it. It's especially important to understand why they left their old home. What was the need that inspired them to consider a change? How did their old OS fail to meet that need? Sometimes our answer to them is going to be, No, sorry, our project isn't designed to do that or That isn't one of our project's goals. Maybe you should consider Project Y instead. There's nothing wrong with that kind of answer. It's coheres with the Unix philosophy of clarity of purpose (e.g., tools that do one thing and do it well.) So, in conclusion, we DON'T need new users because growing the userbase is good in itself. Sometimes growth is cancerous, and kills the body. We DO need new users insofar as they help us meet the goals of our project. (And sometimes new users suggest new goals for us to pursue.) -- Charlie ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
* Da Rock [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-11-16 15:21:27 +1000]: The reason for sending the OP to linux first is they will not be deterred by the driver and hardware issues. Linux IS easier in this way, and has a greater support for hardware that is used outside of a server environment. It also allows them to learn the *nix methodology and software. To the extent that Linux succeeds in making things just work, it will prevent or at least delay the user's learning the Unix way. Most of us got our Unix knowledge the old-fashioned way: we earned it. We stumbled over one problem or another and fought our way through to a solution. When things just work, only the technically curious will explore beneath the hood to see exactly how they work. Maybe we shouldn't make it a goal that every user should have that kind of deep-water knowledge? Should it really be a goal that every user become familiar with the shell and commandline tools? Why not let them live happily ever after in a point-and-click world? -- Charlie ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Charlie Kester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Users can also contribute by helping to refine the requirements for software. For example, my son is an animator and he and I have often discussed various graphics tools. In his opinion, the Gimp is a powerful tool which provides almost every tool or technique an artist might want, but it's unusable because its user interface doesn't reflect the way artists actually do their work. He says this isn't just that they're used to Photoshop or whatever; there's something about the nature of the task that the Gimp fails to accommodate in a natural, effortless way. He says the Gimp feels like a tool designed by software engineers rather than artists. Interesting analogy, and your overall point makes sense. Here's a question regarding the attitude towards moves to new software and the expectation it behave like $OTHER_PROGRAM. Photoshop had to be learned to be used initially. The questions are, does a user *want* to spend the time to learn a new interface? What do they gain by doing so? Is there a commercial drive behind the change? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
improving FreeBSD, there wouldn't be a need to convert. Build it (and secure/stabilise it) and they will come. Indeed, what IS the value of more users to a volunteer project like FreeBSD? to some level - better driver support. but windows-converters-seeking-for-nicer-windows don't write drivers. this level is OK, more users can make only harm. exactly what happened with linux. as heavyweight sponsors did. they pay but request not just adding drivers but to add strange-but-trendy features and solutions that take system's quality down quickly. exactly that happened to NetBSD. i recently installed newest NetBSD version just to look at it. it was damn slow and even slower under high load!! not mentioning linux that got just billion$ total sposoring from IBM. Microsoft, Apple, etc. want more users on their OS because it increases their profits. But who gets more money if ten thousand users switch to FreeBSD? we - don't FreeBSD developers may get, but not much more than now. but the danger of getting heavyweight sponsor is increasing. FreeBSD already has a large enough user base to attract the attention of developers deciding which platforms to target with their apps. But even if it didn't, it has a large developer community of its own, and they've done a great job porting apps, as well as creating new apps themselves. New exactly. more users means more developers only to some amount!! myself for example. i don't classify myself as expert, but IMHO i know more about unix than 80-90% people on that list, and i did no contribution except few sent-pr, some with patches!! will adding 10 times more less-than-average skilled people help at all? No - only make more mess, and will drive experienced unix users AWAY from FreeBSD just after reading that lists. And yes - we WANT users of other unix-like systems to switch to FreeBSD just because it's one of the best (if not the best) unix in the world. And they WILL help making it even better. But why should we want to increase the number of ordinary, non-developer users? we should NOT! i write EVERY TIME about it. documentation or other non-programming tasks, then it makes sense to actively recruit them too. is there much work needed on documentation. it's EXCELLENT, contrary to linux with huge user base! software. For example, my son is an animator and he and I have often discussed various graphics tools. In his opinion, the Gimp is a discussion about gimp and photoshop is OFF TOPIC. it's not FreeBSD specific. maybe discussion about gimp FreeBSD port - yes, but not about gimp itself and about it's pluses and minuses. it's bad that over 50% of topics on that list (or more) are OFF TOPIC. this list should have a moderator. someone that will just keep this list on-topic. no questions like how to do this and this in KDE or is program A better than program B, but questions like why KDE works faster/slower than under linux or why program A's function X crashes on FreeBSD, while working fine under Solaris or i wrote program for linux some time ago. i want it to compile on FreeBSD, but i use library function that doesn't exist/work different on FreeBSD. what should i do? this list NEEDS A MODERATOR. DEFINITELY. Even high skilled people keeps such off-topic thread going, because they want help someone. but it make a complete mess. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
Interesting analogy, and your overall point makes sense. Here's a question regarding the attitude towards moves to new software and the expectation it behave like $OTHER_PROGRAM. Photoshop had to be learned exactly. for experienced gimp user moving to photoshop will not be easy too. but it's completely off topic. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
Still it goes, the OP is trying to get away from MS-Win, not find some non-MS clone in EVERY such post i see exactly opposite. they want windoze clones! they don't ask about how to learn unix, what to read, they didn't read even basic manuals, or if so - just glanced. actually - there is a market niche for true non-microsoft windoze clone! it's strange noone try to fill it. it's millions of $ to earn! something working like windoze, running windoze .exe/.dll binaries and windows compatible installer but for example not requiring gig of RAM, powerful CPU running 10 times faster (not difficult to achieve) etc... i remember many years ago installing linux first time (linux was quite good that time). i spent 2 months on it reading everything needed and learning BEFORE asking questions on mailing lists! because i knew nothing about unix at first. I knew only DOS and windoze 95 before, DOS isn't an OS at all, but that is adventage too. but i needed something that made full use of my 25Mhz 486. Windoze definitely wasn't good in it. it just wasted hardware resources giving nothing. that's why i tried to seek something different. and found linux.. after some time NetBSD, then FreeBSD. today - most of these wannabe-FreeBSD-users just don't want to pay for windoze. nothing else! ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
simply reading FreeBSD handbook will be the best move for the beginning. But it is NOT windoze replacement. It is if you put it on the system instead of MS-Win stuff. It will totally replace it if you use fdisk to create a FreeBSD slice no need for slices. i don't create slices on any system. and then partition that slice and install FreeBSD. Win will be totally gone and the user will be merrily using something better. Of course, if the user had said he wanted something like Vista to run on his machine, then it wouldn't fit that category. But that is not what he said. but exactly what he expected. and you know this. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
* Wojciech Puchar [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-11-16 22:41:27 +0100]: discussion about gimp and photoshop is OFF TOPIC. Agreed. I introduced it as an EXAMPLE of one way a new user might contribute a valuable perspective and therefore why we might want to recruit him into the FreeBSD community. I do NOT want to see a discussion of the Gimp versus Photoshop. I *do* want to see a discussion of the FreeBSD project's goals, as part of the answer the OP's question about which platform to use instead of Windows. The more people understand what FreeBSD's design goals are, the better they'll be able to decide if it also meets their goals. Wojciech, you seem to be saying that accommodating Windoze users is not and should not be a goal for FreeBSD. I respect that opinion. I just want to know if it's shared by the project leaders. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 10:57:31PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: simply reading FreeBSD handbook will be the best move for the beginning. But it is NOT windoze replacement. It is if you put it on the system instead of MS-Win stuff. It will totally replace it if you use fdisk to create a FreeBSD slice no need for slices. i don't create slices on any system. and then partition that slice and install FreeBSD. Win will be totally gone and the user will be merrily using something better. Of course, if the user had said he wanted something like Vista to run on his machine, then it wouldn't fit that category. But that is not what he said. but exactly what he expected. and you know this. Now that wouldn't hold up in court. jerry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
I *do* want to see a discussion of the FreeBSD project's goals, as part of the answer the OP's question about which platform to use instead of Windows. The more people understand what FreeBSD's design goals are, the better they'll be able to decide if it also meets their goals. they can read it on webpage. Wojciech, you seem to be saying that accommodating Windoze users is not and should not be a goal for FreeBSD. I respect that opinion. I just want to know if it's shared by the project leaders. me to. it's important. i'd like to plan ahead. if their opinion is opposite, FreeBSD will turn into crap within 2-3 years as every other project. there are no exceptions to that rule. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
Wojciech Puchar wrote: I *do* want to see a discussion of the FreeBSD project's goals, as part of the answer the OP's question about which platform to use instead of Windows. The more people understand what FreeBSD's design goals are, the better they'll be able to decide if it also meets their goals. they can read it on webpage. Wojciech, you seem to be saying that accommodating Windoze users is not and should not be a goal for FreeBSD. I respect that opinion. I just want to know if it's shared by the project leaders. me to. it's important. i'd like to plan ahead. if their opinion is opposite, FreeBSD will turn into crap within 2-3 years as every other project. there are no exceptions to that rule. I do not believe there needs to be an actual *effort* to accommodate Windows users, there are other projects with that as one of their goals which are doing quite well. If accommodating a Windows user is simply allowing for a usable desktop system, then FreeBSD works fine. One man's crap is another man's favorite operating system. I do think there does *not* need to be effort to run off Windows users who may consider switching to FreeBSD. There is nothing wrong with them using FreeBSD, and if they don't like it they can choose something else. It doesn't matter if they have previous experience with a *nix operating system, if they are able to figure it out then it is just as good as figuring out something else. I find it a bit disheartening that at least one side of this topic has begun to resemble Scott Adams' Unix quote, which I do think is a misrepresentation of the community as a whole. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: re changing from vista
which are doing quite well. If accommodating a Windows user is simply allowing for a usable desktop system, then FreeBSD works fine. what you mean usable desktop system? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
Windows XP is an alternative On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Steven Susbauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wojciech Puchar wrote: opinion But why are we interested in converting people? That borders on religious, which an operating system should not be. exactly. it's a good idea to tell people about trying FreeBSD if they are already using some flavor of unix. One can be converted from Solaris to FreeBSD, from NetBSD to OpenBSD, and (sometimes) from linux to FreeBSD. But not from Windows. I disagree strongly. If someone has the interest and ability (if only to read docs), they could certainly change from Windows to FreeBSD. The point from your quoted post appears to be that it is not a religion to be converted to from anything, rather a tool that some will use if they want to, or won't. There's nothing wrong with that. Depending on what someone is hoping to accomplish, I would certainly suggest FreeBSD as a suitable tool. It is no sweat off my back if they use something different though. To the OP if you're still reading; read through the handbook beforehand. At least, see if it's really what you want to get into. There are BSD-based desktop systems that may suit you better if you're looking for a more familiar experience. There are also many newbie-friendly Linux distributions that could suit you also. -- new city new thoughts new men please choose the freesoftware to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
Windows XP is an alternative excellent for windows vista alternative. it is much faster (while still slow of course), and there are fixes available that allows to use any new drivers from vista under XP. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 01:22:00AM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: The OP asked advice on an OS alternative to Vista and asked about FreeBSD. Telling him that FreeBSD is a good choice is not making a religious statement. It is just answering his question in an honest manner. no - because it's not alternative for Windows Vista. He is trying to get out of Vista, not trying to be Vista with another name. jerry Windows XP is an alternative. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 01:21:04AM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: opinion But why are we interested in converting people? That borders on religious, which an operating system should not be. exactly. it's a good idea to tell people about trying FreeBSD if they are already using some flavor of unix. One can be converted from Solaris to FreeBSD, from NetBSD to OpenBSD, and (sometimes) from linux to FreeBSD. But not from Windows. Come on, lose your thickness and let the guy be free from Vista. Tha is his purpose - not a religious conversion. He wants to use the computer, but not be stuck with certain Northwest USA environments.So, let him learn a meaningful server environment. Quit niggling about things not part of the situation just because you have some prejudices. jerry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 01:18:07AM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off. This means that you will have a very steep learning curve. simply reading FreeBSD handbook will be the best move for the beginning. But it is NOT windoze replacement. It is if you put it on the system instead of MS-Win stuff. It will totally replace it if you use fdisk to create a FreeBSD slice and then partition that slice and install FreeBSD. Win will be totally gone and the user will be merrily using something better. Of course, if the user had said he wanted something like Vista to run on his machine, then it wouldn't fit that category. But that is not what he said. jerry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
re changing from vista
Dear sirs please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows vista but i cannot understand which system to use i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software kind regards Peter ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
You have to be more specific, if you need actual help if you are not sure that FreeBSD will work with your hardware, you may try it and see what happens For the software part: FreeBSD has a large collection of software often refered to as ports.But again you have to be more specific, tell the list what you want to do... and people will help you -nikos ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows vista but i cannot understand which system to use maybe windows XP? i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software simply check it. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
Wojciech Puchar wrote: please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows vista but i cannot understand which system to use maybe windows XP? i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software simply check it. unless you think this may be a troll, your comments seem a great way to chase away a potential convert to FreeBSD. -- Jim Pazarena [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:19:34PM -0800, Jim Pazarena wrote: Wojciech Puchar wrote: please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows vista but i cannot understand which system to use maybe windows XP? i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software simply check it. unless you think this may be a troll, your comments seem a great way to chase away a potential convert to FreeBSD. Yes, curt answers are generally not helpful to newbies. They might occasionally (rarely) be relevant for experienced userd but are not welcome in circumstances like this. The reply is suggesting the Original Poster (OP) just try out FreeBSD and see if it works for him. Really, that is a good idea. But there is help available before that in the FreeBSD Handbook and the FAQ and some online publications available for free around the net. So, go to the FreeBSD web page. Click on the 'Learn More' and 'New to FreeBSD?' links about 1/3 the way down the page and read what is there and follow some of the more interesting links. Then click on 'Documentation' and get a little familiar with that. By then, you should at least have some idea of what FreeBSD is all about. Then you can ask more specific questions or more importantly, downlod the most recent version (7.1 by then) and install it, preferably on a fresh disk, and play around. You can't hurt anything that can't be fixed by just trashing it all and starting over. FreeBSD is very different from Microsloth stuff. Most especially it has a completely different attitude toward the way to develop, install, administer and use an Operating System. There is much less GUI stuff and more learning about how the system actually works -- but along with that there is much more control over the system and much more freedom to make it do what you really want rather than what some marketing suit thinks you should want to do with it. It is really all layed out wide open for you to dig in and do what you want. But, because of that, you have to take some responsibility to learn the how and what and why of it. So, have fun, jerry -- Jim Pazarena [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
peter wrote: Dear sirs please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows vista but i cannot understand which system to use i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software FreeBSD (or any Unix/Linux for that matter) is very different to Windows, and it can be a daunting task to get up to speed with it. FreeBSD in my humble opinion is the best-of-breed Unix out there for server-class applications. Which is cool if you're one of those hairy Unix types that can wrangle the command line, and configure a dozen instances of Apache before breakfast, but maybe not if you are an ordinary mortal that just wants to surf the web, listen to a few tunes, send e-mail, chat on IRC, maybe edit the odd document. While the properties of FreeBSD that make it an excellent Server OS also make it an excellent foundation for a Desktop OS, it doesn't come with the layer of middle-ware that smooths over the user experience[*]. Of course, such software is readily available, but -- catch 22 -- you don't have the sort of Window/Icons/MousePointer environment immediately available to let you easily install the desired WIMP environment. I suggest going to http://www.pcbsd.org/ and grabbing an ISO of PC-BSD. This is an integrated user environment based on FreeBSD, but with much more the sort of graphical interface you'ld be used to as a Windows user. It also has quantities of useful help and advice for people wanting to make that first step away from Windows, plus help with working out if all of your hardware is supported under the OS. Windows software will not in general work under Free- or PC-BSD. There are emulation environments that you can install, and these are sufficient to run a lot of software including a number of popular games, but there is no guarantee that any particular application will work. There are Open Source alternatives to the majority of popular Windows Apps (Firefox instead of IE, Thunderbird instead of OutLook, OpenOffice instead of Word+Excel+PowerPoint+etc., Gimp instead of Photoshop, ...) but these are independently developed applications with their own concepts of how things should be done, not slavish copies of the Windows equivalents. The differences can be frustrating at first, but persistence will pay dividends. Cheers, Matthew [*] Yes, all you pedants out there: the software is on the FreeBSD installation media and you can install it at the same time as you install the OS. True. The point is, however, that it won't 'just work' without at least a bit of configuration involving doing some command-line stuff. Plus you have to know /which/ of all those software packages it is you actually want to install -- there's actually two major contenders (KDE, Gnome) and any number of minor contenders to choose from, and any number of choices and optional bits to decide on -- fine if you're familiar with all that, but still a real hurdle for the uninitiated. -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: re changing from vista
On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 11:58 +0100, peter wrote: Dear sirs please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows vista but i cannot understand which system to use i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software kind regards Peter Welcome to the free world Peter! FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off. This means that you will have a very steep learning curve. This list is /very/ helpful, others may not be so friendly or helpful. This is great for newbies who need some real help in getting to know their system and fixing problems, but there are times when even this is not enough if you don't have enough experience with the system. My advice is this: get used to the *nix (linux, unix and other derivatives) systems and how they do things, and the best way to do this is to use linux which is like a halfway house for windows users. The software available for all systems is HUGE. And all this software will usually run on both systems. The difference is linux will take care of a lot of maintenance for you (like vista), but still allows you to get your hands dirty hacking the system to your hearts content. This is not to deter you from using FreeBSD - linux is a tough system when compared to windows, but FreeBSD is even tougher; bit like comparing a tank to fort knox. But the ease of use and experience you'll gain from using linux will be more forgiving than using FreeBSD. My suggestion would be to get used to the *nixes with Ubuntu or even PCBSD (which is a FreeBSD variant for newer users), once you have gotten used to that give yourself another steep learning curve and jump to the final level of FreeBSD straight-up :) Keep in touch with this list and you'll get all your questions answered no matter how ridiculous they may seem to the seasoned users here, and the Ubuntu list is nearly as helpful from my observation (hence my recommendation). Once you have the experience you'll definitely want FreeBSD for its security, stability, and more. You can run a desktop, a server, or just about whatever you want on it. The possibilties are endless with nearly any *nix system, but the stability can only be found with BSD. Good luck with your endeavours and welcome, again ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 08:00:23AM +1000, Da Rock wrote: On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 11:58 +0100, peter wrote: Dear sirs please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows vista but i cannot understand which system to use i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software kind regards Peter Welcome to the free world Peter! FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off. This means that you will have a very steep learning curve. This list is /very/ helpful, others may not be so friendly or helpful. This is great for newbies who need some real help in getting to know their system and fixing problems, but there are times when even this is not enough if you don't have enough experience with the system. My advice is this: get used to the *nix (linux, unix and other derivatives) systems and how they do things, and the best way to do this is to use linux which is like a halfway house for windows users. The software available for all systems is HUGE. And all this software will usually run on both systems. The difference is linux will take care of a lot of maintenance for you (like vista), but still allows you to get your hands dirty hacking the system to your hearts content. This is not to deter you from using FreeBSD - linux is a tough system when compared to windows, but FreeBSD is even tougher; bit like comparing a tank to fort knox. But the ease of use and experience you'll gain from using linux will be more forgiving than using FreeBSD. This is just wrong.I have always found FreeBSD to be easier to install and configure the way I want it that the Red Hat or Suse I often have to use for some servers at work. You can learn them all if you want and use them all. But, don't be bullied in to believing that FreeBSD is any harder than the Lunix flavors out there. jerry My suggestion would be to get used to the *nixes with Ubuntu or even PCBSD (which is a FreeBSD variant for newer users), once you have gotten used to that give yourself another steep learning curve and jump to the final level of FreeBSD straight-up :) Keep in touch with this list and you'll get all your questions answered no matter how ridiculous they may seem to the seasoned users here, and the Ubuntu list is nearly as helpful from my observation (hence my recommendation). Once you have the experience you'll definitely want FreeBSD for its security, stability, and more. You can run a desktop, a server, or just about whatever you want on it. The possibilties are endless with nearly any *nix system, but the stability can only be found with BSD. Good luck with your endeavours and welcome, again ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 08:00:23AM +1000, Da Rock wrote: On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 11:58 +0100, peter wrote: Dear sirs please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows vista but i cannot understand which system to use i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software kind regards Peter Welcome to the free world Peter! FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off. This means that you will have a very steep learning curve. This list is /very/ helpful, others may not be so friendly or helpful. This is great for newbies who need some real help in getting to know their system and fixing problems, but there are times when even this is not enough if you don't have enough experience with the system. My advice is this: get used to the *nix (linux, unix and other derivatives) systems and how they do things, and the best way to do this is to use linux which is like a halfway house for windows users. The software available for all systems is HUGE. And all this software will usually run on both systems. The difference is linux will take care of a lot of maintenance for you (like vista), but still allows you to get your hands dirty hacking the system to your hearts content. This is not to deter you from using FreeBSD - linux is a tough system when compared to windows, but FreeBSD is even tougher; bit like comparing a tank to fort knox. But the ease of use and experience you'll gain from using linux will be more forgiving than using FreeBSD. This is just wrong.I have always found FreeBSD to be easier to install and configure the way I want it that the Red Hat or Suse I often have to use for some servers at work. Amen to that. I've converted many Ubuntu users who had shot themselves in the foot. They are now happy freeBSD users. YMMV ed You can learn them all if you want and use them all. But, don't be bullied in to believing that FreeBSD is any harder than the Lunix flavors out there. jerry My suggestion would be to get used to the *nixes with Ubuntu or even PCBSD (which is a FreeBSD variant for newer users), once you have gotten used to that give yourself another steep learning curve and jump to the final level of FreeBSD straight-up :) Keep in touch with this list and you'll get all your questions answered no matter how ridiculous they may seem to the seasoned users here, and the Ubuntu list is nearly as helpful from my observation (hence my recommendation). Once you have the experience you'll definitely want FreeBSD for its security, stability, and more. You can run a desktop, a server, or just about whatever you want on it. The possibilties are endless with nearly any *nix system, but the stability can only be found with BSD. Good luck with your endeavours and welcome, again ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:19:34PM -0800, Jim Pazarena wrote: Wojciech Puchar wrote: please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows vista but i cannot understand which system to use maybe windows XP? i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software simply check it. unless you think this may be a troll, your comments seem a great way to chase away a potential convert to FreeBSD. opinion But why are we interested in converting people? That borders on religious, which an operating system should not be. People should use whatever OS gets the job done for them, be it Windows, FreeBSD, Linux, OS X, Solaris, DOS, whatever. The OP's question is vague in a sincere way; users who want to move away from an OS often hope there is a simple answer, when in fact there isn't. My point is that focusing on converting someone, I feel, is the wrong way to go about showing the world the operating system is worth using. To me, it's just just another manipulative form of marketing; and I don't know about you, but marketing doesn't sway me when it comes to most things (*especially* computing-oriented things). Marketing often turns people off to things, rather than on. I'm not saying we don't need new users -- I'm saying: if we took half the energy used converting people and applied it to fixing bugs and improving FreeBSD, there wouldn't be a need to convert. Build it (and secure/stabilise it) and they will come. I guess I just see things in a different light than most. /opinion -- | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 08:00:23AM +1000, Da Rock wrote: On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 11:58 +0100, peter wrote: Dear sirs please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows vista but i cannot understand which system to use i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software Take a look at the FreeBSD FAQ here - section 4 is the one you need. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/index.html Some research om the hardware front can save you lots of pain later. kind regards Peter Welcome to the free world Peter! FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off. This means that you will have a very steep learning curve. This list is /very/ helpful, others may not be so friendly or helpful. This is great for newbies who need some real help in getting to know their system and fixing problems, but there are times when even this is not enough if you don't have enough experience with the system. My advice is this: get used to the *nix (linux, unix and other derivatives) systems and how they do things, and the best way to do this is to use linux which is like a halfway house for windows users. The software available for all systems is HUGE. And all this software will usually run on both systems. The difference is linux will take care of a lot of maintenance for you (like vista), but still allows you to get your hands dirty hacking the system to your hearts content. This is not to deter you from using FreeBSD - linux is a tough system when compared to windows, but FreeBSD is even tougher; bit like comparing a tank to fort knox. But the ease of use and experience you'll gain from using linux will be more forgiving than using FreeBSD. This is just wrong.I have always found FreeBSD to be easier to install and configure the way I want it that the Red Hat or Suse I often have to use for some servers at work. Amen to that. I've converted many Ubuntu users who had shot themselves in the foot. They are now happy freeBSD users. YMMV ed You can learn them all if you want and use them all. But, don't be bullied in to believing that FreeBSD is any harder than the Lunix flavors out there. Well, depending on the needs, expectations and background of the learner I guess that sometimes it might feel harder! Again YMMV. One thing which makes the transition easier is the marvellous FreeBSD handbook and documentation. Two websites I found helpful were (and are!) Roland Smith's FreeBSD page here http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/freebsd/ (Thank you Roland!!) and this one http://www.math.colostate.edu/~reinholz/freebsd/freebsd.html Good luck, atb Glyn ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 02:56:26PM -0800, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:19:34PM -0800, Jim Pazarena wrote: Wojciech Puchar wrote: please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows vista but i cannot understand which system to use maybe windows XP? i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software simply check it. unless you think this may be a troll, your comments seem a great way to chase away a potential convert to FreeBSD. opinion But why are we interested in converting people? That borders on religious, which an operating system should not be. The OP asked advice on an OS alternative to Vista and asked about FreeBSD. Telling him that FreeBSD is a good choice is not making a religious statement. It is just answering his question in an honest manner. jerry People should use whatever OS gets the job done for them, be it Windows, FreeBSD, Linux, OS X, Solaris, DOS, whatever. The OP's question is vague in a sincere way; users who want to move away from an OS often hope there is a simple answer, when in fact there isn't. My point is that focusing on converting someone, I feel, is the wrong way to go about showing the world the operating system is worth using. To me, it's just just another manipulative form of marketing; and I don't know about you, but marketing doesn't sway me when it comes to most things (*especially* computing-oriented things). Marketing often turns people off to things, rather than on. I'm not saying we don't need new users -- I'm saying: if we took half the energy used converting people and applied it to fixing bugs and improving FreeBSD, there wouldn't be a need to convert. Build it (and secure/stabilise it) and they will come. I guess I just see things in a different light than most. /opinion -- | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
simply check it. unless you think this may be a troll, your comments seem a great way to chase away a potential convert to FreeBSD. indeed. conversion from windows to unix that way is bad idea. if you/others will help them, soon we will have another linux - windows competitor and see discussions or even articles in newspapers about differences in windows and FreeBSD like well, FreeBSD has different windows coloration and icons. Unix is NOT windows competitor. unix is completely different way of computing. Now - linux is windows competitor, and i still remember times when it was nice and very usable OS. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off. This means that you will have a very steep learning curve. simply reading FreeBSD handbook will be the best move for the beginning. But it is NOT windoze replacement. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
opinion But why are we interested in converting people? That borders on religious, which an operating system should not be. exactly. it's a good idea to tell people about trying FreeBSD if they are already using some flavor of unix. One can be converted from Solaris to FreeBSD, from NetBSD to OpenBSD, and (sometimes) from linux to FreeBSD. But not from Windows. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
The OP asked advice on an OS alternative to Vista and asked about FreeBSD. Telling him that FreeBSD is a good choice is not making a religious statement. It is just answering his question in an honest manner. no - because it's not alternative for Windows Vista. Windows XP is an alternative. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: re changing from vista
Wojciech Puchar wrote: opinion But why are we interested in converting people? That borders on religious, which an operating system should not be. exactly. it's a good idea to tell people about trying FreeBSD if they are already using some flavor of unix. One can be converted from Solaris to FreeBSD, from NetBSD to OpenBSD, and (sometimes) from linux to FreeBSD. But not from Windows. I disagree strongly. If someone has the interest and ability (if only to read docs), they could certainly change from Windows to FreeBSD. The point from your quoted post appears to be that it is not a religion to be converted to from anything, rather a tool that some will use if they want to, or won't. There's nothing wrong with that. Depending on what someone is hoping to accomplish, I would certainly suggest FreeBSD as a suitable tool. It is no sweat off my back if they use something different though. To the OP if you're still reading; read through the handbook beforehand. At least, see if it's really what you want to get into. There are BSD-based desktop systems that may suit you better if you're looking for a more familiar experience. There are also many newbie-friendly Linux distributions that could suit you also. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
