[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #13946] Wish: Ability to escort units automatically

[pepeto]

Update of bug #13946 (project freeciv):

Priority:  5 - Normal => 1 - Later  

___

Follow-up Comment #11:

See also bug #14088

___

Reply to this item at:

  

___
  Message posté via/par Gna!
  http://gna.org/


___
Freeciv-dev mailing list
Freeciv-dev@gna.org
https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev

[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #13946] Wish: Ability to escort units automatically

[Nathan]

Follow-up Comment #10, bug #13946 (project freeciv):

Incidentally, Weird Worlds uses a very simple technique:  If you assign the
leader to follow someone, the former leader no longer is leader, and the ship
it's now following becomes the leader, no matter where it was in the prior
hierarchy.

Marko, thank you for having a look at our long-winded discussion of a little
wish or two  :^)

___

Reply to this item at:

  

___
  Message sent via/by Gna!
  http://gna.org/


___
Freeciv-dev mailing list
Freeciv-dev@gna.org
https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev

[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #13946] Wish: Ability to escort units automatically

[Ann]

Follow-up Comment #9, bug #13946 (project freeciv):

Would it?  I imagine a flag 'is_leader' would be as simple as searching up
the follower chain until reaching the end, but I'm sure you know the code
better than I do.

A question about 'easier': Would it be easier in terms of gameplay to prevent
leader chains?  Is there a real use for them, or would they make things more
complicated, or is it irrelevant from a user's point of view?

___

Reply to this item at:

  

___
  Message sent via/by Gna!
  http://gna.org/


___
Freeciv-dev mailing list
Freeciv-dev@gna.org
https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev

[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #13946] Wish: Ability to escort units automatically

[Marko Lindqvist]

Follow-up Comment #8, bug #13946 (project freeciv):

> I wouldn't mind at all if, for the sake of simplicity,
> ...
> and a leader unit could not follow another unit.

It would actually be *more* complicated to special case leader units so that
they cannot have another unit leading them.

___

Reply to this item at:

  

___
  Message sent via/by Gna!
  http://gna.org/


___
Freeciv-dev mailing list
Freeciv-dev@gna.org
https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev

[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #13946] Wish: Ability to escort units automatically

[Ann]

Follow-up Comment #7, bug #13946 (project freeciv):

Great that we agree...now it just needs to get coded and accepted ;)  Alas
this is quite a bit beyond my current understanding of the code base.

___

Reply to this item at:

  

___
  Message sent via/by Gna!
  http://gna.org/


___
Freeciv-dev mailing list
Freeciv-dev@gna.org
https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev

[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #13946] Wish: Ability to escort units automatically

[Nathan]

Follow-up Comment #6, bug #13946 (project freeciv):

Brilliant, and I totally agree.  You have my vote.  Being able to follow
allied, enemy, or "alien" units would be invaluable.  A rally point would be
very handy.  Right now, I keep the mouse on the minimap and right-click on
the rally point, then hit G and send the unit there, in order to minimize the
scrolling around.  (I'm lazy, too!)

___

Reply to this item at:

  

___
  Message sent via/by Gna!
  http://gna.org/


___
Freeciv-dev mailing list
Freeciv-dev@gna.org
https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev

[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #13946] Wish: Ability to escort units automatically

[Ann]

Follow-up Comment #5, bug #13946 (project freeciv):

I think that the idea of "make a group, go at the speed of the slowest" and
"assign a leader to follow" are roughly analogous in terms of what they would
deliver to gameplay, I just prefer the second because it is more versatile.  I
wouldn't mind at all if, for the sake of simplicity, a unit could only have
one leader at a given time, and a leader unit could not follow another unit. 
I don't think that freeciv really benefits from the sort of formation you
described from RIS.

So long as one leader could have multiple followers, and any unit could be a
leader unit (including units owned by another player, whether hostile or
allied, although naturally if following a hostile player you'd kill it as
soon as you tried to enter the same square), the flexibility I'm looking for
would be there.  I'd rather that the leader-follower link was only broken
manually or if the leader died/was disbanded (which should issue a warning,
perhaps); that seems easier to manage than if it could be dissolved
automatically under certain circumstances.

We might be over-engineering this...

Although another thing I was thinking of, in terms of groups, which would be
handy, is a 'rally point'.  It would be nice to select a square and have all
new units of a particular type go to that square as soon as they were built. 
It would be useful when you're building up an army from cities all around your
continent.

___

Reply to this item at:

  

___
  Message sent via/by Gna!
  http://gna.org/


___
Freeciv-dev mailing list
Freeciv-dev@gna.org
https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev

[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #13946] Wish: Ability to escort units automatically

[Nathan]

Follow-up Comment #4, bug #13946 (project freeciv):

Ann, I think you've hit upon the can of worms that may have prevented this
feature coming to fruition yet.  I see these as separate concerns that might
be addressable the same way, but let's identify them, because I think the
best solution could turn out to be separate ones:

1. Escort weak units.  (my top priority)  In this situation, a chain is
overkill and inappropriate.  I merely want to do something like assign a
musketeer to each worker in a war zone so I don't get 43 automated workers
butchered because they keep getting sniped by weak units.

2. Send groups of units (armies, fleets, squadrons) places together as if
they were one unit.  (also important to me)  With this ability, you could
have an offensive group, a defensive group, and a fort-building group, and
have only three groups to move for a fully decked out, well-defended strike
force, for example.  Move your alpine troops to Point X and fortify them. 
Move your Cannons to Point X, confident that their defense is better than 1. 
...and that's for when you're feeling fancy.  Once you get enough military
momentum, you can just barrel over the globe with offensive units.  Again, I
don't think chains are necessary here.  I think we really just want to group
some units and move the group as if it were a unit.

I think your suggested restriction of same-medium units is very appropriate
in both cases, of course.

Weird Worlds: Return to Infinite Space, another favorite game, makes use of
escort during combat, and it allows you to chain them.  The practical
application of it is not really to escort a unit as much as it is to manage a
formation.  The default is that the fleet has a leader, and everyone else
escorts that leader; however, units faster than the leader match the leader's
speed, and slower units just fall behind.  Sometimes you want to split the
formation into smaller formations, and that works just fine.  Chaining is
rarely (if ever) useful, but it's sometimes fun.  Due to the placement of
most ships' firing arcs, a fluid chain of ships is simply less effective in
most situations  Nonetheless, I will have to see how they chose to deal
with the user trying to set the leader of the convoy to escort the trailer. 
(Some research is very fun - hee hee.)

Thank you for keeping this discussion interesting!  I look forward to this
leading to another very cool feature or two appearing in the fabulous
Freeciv!

___

Reply to this item at:

  

___
  Message sent via/by Gna!
  http://gna.org/


___
Freeciv-dev mailing list
Freeciv-dev@gna.org
https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev

[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #13946] Wish: Ability to escort units automatically

[Ann]

Follow-up Comment #3, bug #13946 (project freeciv):

Nathan:

I think it would be acceptable for B to follow A and for C to follow B, and
so on, so long as A didn't follow Z (the end of the following chain).  I
would think that would just be a matter of having a check to see if it is
possible to follow a unit, which would have to recursively check the unit
that the leader might be following.

More of a challenge, I think, is agreeing on unfollow behavior.  I think we'd
all agree that it should be possible to manually unfollow, ideally not with
having to click on each unit individually (although that should also be an
option), but also for the entire square or by clicking on the leader (a handy
option if you want to get rid of all followers for the leader).

But what happens when the leader moves out of range (for instance boards a
transport), or dies?  In the first case I'd expect the units would just
sentry or otherwise sit still until they have the opportunity to follow
again, assuming they couldn't also board the transport.  In the case of death
there's likely to be some disagreement--some people might like the units to
follow a similar unit, whereas others might prefer that the follow chain be
broken, or that the followers follow the leader their leader was following
(if such a unit exists).  I can see arguments for all possibilities; my
personal preference would be to follow the leader's leader if possible, and
to stop following (with a warning message) otherwise.

What I currently have as my workaround is to only send units to places I can
see without scrolling.  That's not nearly as tedious, it just requires
clicking in the same spot many times. If they are on a railroad and can reach
that square in the same turn, I just skip on to the next.  Then I move them
further in a subsequent turn, when all have assembled at the new spot.  This
means it often takes me many more turns to attack than is strictly required,
but I'm lazy so I'd rather do this than scroll.  I find it hard to manage by
type, as you suggested, as I currently have multiple armies at work in
different areas at the same time. 

___

Reply to this item at:

  

___
  Message sent via/by Gna!
  http://gna.org/


___
Freeciv-dev mailing list
Freeciv-dev@gna.org
https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev

[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #13946] Wish: Ability to escort units automatically

[Nathan Morse]

Follow-up Comment #2, bug #13946 (project freeciv):

Good points, Ann, especially the "same type of unit" bit.  Workers and
Engineers only move 1 and 2 spaces respectively, so being able to assign a
leader should be all that's necessary.  One thing to watch out for, though: 
We wouldn't want to allow a leadership loop to be created, in which every
unit follows the one before it.  Then again, I suppose all the units in that
situation would approach one another until they all sit in the same space
"following" each other.

Actually, my work around for moving a large army from Point A to Point B is
to have only one army active (i.e. not sentried) at a time, use Y to select
all of the same type of unit, then send them all wherever.  There are some
drawbacks to this, though:

1. The user experience is a little buggy once the group of, say, 74 units
have executed the command.  The UI then starts activating some of the units
one at a time, canceling their sentried, goto, or whatever state, as if it's
saying, "Uh, what was I supposed to do again?"  I haven't figured out a
pattern yet, but it happens with as few as 10 units, and rarely happens to
all of them.

2. Because enemy units activate sentried units, sentrying Armies A, B, and C
while you work with D can lead to some surprising, and annoying results.  You
have to grab all the units in the freshly awakened Army B and get them back to
sleep so you can keep working with D alone.

3. Land units on separate islands can't go to the same destination (without
sufficient convoy action), so as same units are created on separate
continents, your Y leads to a tedious meta-game of Find the New Units So You
Can Sentry Them.

4. Everytime you move the aforementioned army of 74 units, that's 74 units
executing separate moves, and 74 units highlighted simultaneously and
separately with an animated halo.  This drags the system to a crawl.  When
those units take a city, the city window pops up, but it is far, far faster
and more efficient to select the main window again, finish your commands for
the victorious army, deselect it, then work with the city window.  It's not
incredibly onerous, but it requires extra steps.  That, or take several times
as long to select three worklists for the conquered city, and change its
production to something defensive.

Nonetheless, it's my best workaround for the moment, and basically amounts to
my having one massive army at a time, but it beats selecting 143 separate
units, so maybe it will help you for now, Ann.

___

Reply to this item at:

  

___
  Message sent via/by Gna!
  http://gna.org/


___
Freeciv-dev mailing list
Freeciv-dev@gna.org
https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev

[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #13946] Wish: Ability to escort units automatically

[Ann]

Follow-up Comment #1, bug #13946 (project freeciv):

I prefer the solution similar to the first one proposed.  If any unit could
be assigned to follow any other unit it is capable of following (land units
follow land units, sea units follow sea units, etc), this would have a
broader application than just escorting/defense.

For example, when you have to move a large army from one point to another
point which requires scrolling, you currently select one unit, scroll, click,
get focus on the next unit, scroll, click, and repeat over and over again.  

As for the issue of matching speed to the slowest unit, this wouldn't need to
be coded.  The player could simply accomplish this by making faster units
follow slower units (i.e. transport follows battleship).  That way someone
would also have the option of just sending all units to one place without
caring how quickly they arrive.

___

Reply to this item at:

  

___
  Message sent via/by Gna!
  http://gna.org/


___
Freeciv-dev mailing list
Freeciv-dev@gna.org
https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev

[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #13946] Wish: Ability to escort units automatically

[Nathan Morse]

URL:
  

 Summary: Wish:  Ability to escort units automatically
 Project: Freeciv
Submitted by: nmx
Submitted on: Monday 07/13/2009 at 14:57
Category: ai
Severity: 1 - Wish
Priority: 5 - Normal
  Status: None
 Assigned to: None
Originator Email: 
 Open/Closed: Open
 Discussion Lock: Any
 Release: 
Operating System: None

___

Details:

Automating units is one of the best features of Freeciv; however, the only
way to escort units (e.g. workers near a belligerent enemy) is to move them
all manually, manually moving the defenders that are escorting them.  This
problem could have multiple solutions, the simplest of which is probably to
allow the user to assign a defender to escort a unit, which means the
defender fortifies when it's in the same space as the unit, and otherwise
goes as fast as it can to catch up with the unit.  While not ideal, it's a
huge improvement over having your stupid workers systematically killed off as
they diligently run to a space in need of improvement at the front line. 
Bonus points if an escorted unit would never move faster than its fastest
escort.  This would work very well for Transports, too!

A more complex option:  Escort Weak Units is an intransitive order to be
given to any military unit.  Any units on a space that is "at risk" (i.e.
within striking distance of a known enemy unit, or within probable striking
distance based on roads, borders, and fog of war), and not escorted will
automatically draw an escort toward them, who will fortify upon reaching the
space.  Idle escorts could either remain fortified where they were last
needed, or could retreat to the nearest city.  This option would not provide
protection for transports, so I certainly would prefer an easier option that
works for more units, and something fancy like this as a supplement to that.

One of the primary things that makes Freeciv so much more fun to play than
the Civilization games is all the intelligent automation of units.  Without
unit escort, war results in one of two things for me, depending on my mood: 
I lazily play ineffectively, by letting my workers get exterminated and
rebuilt over and over; or I tediously micromanage the support units and
transports to keep them defended by an escort.  I rarely take the latter
option simply because it's no fun.

Other suggestions welcome, of course!  Thank you!




___

Reply to this item at:

  

___
  Message sent via/by Gna!
  http://gna.org/


___
Freeciv-dev mailing list
Freeciv-dev@gna.org
https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev