[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[Jacob Nevins]

URL:
  

 Summary: AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping
science (civ2civ3 ruleset)
 Project: Freeciv
Submitted by: jtn
Submitted on: Mon 14 Dec 2015 01:09:59 UTC
Category: None
Severity: 3 - Normal
Priority: 5 - Normal
  Status: None
 Assigned to: None
Originator Email: 
 Open/Closed: Open
 Release: S2_6 r30966
 Discussion Lock: Any
Operating System: GNU/Linux
 Planned Release: 2.6.0, 3.0.0

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Details:

Just ran a S2_6 autogame to T5000 with no definite conclusion.

All AIs have stopped research, and many have not yet achieved Gunpowder. Looks
like science was only an occasional pursuit after around T150.

(There are probably other problems, since no AI has been eliminated in 5000
turns, even though there is a noticeable disparity in technology.)

Attached savegame from final turn. I still have all the others, for now.

I haven't run on S2_5, or with classic ruleset, to compare behaviour.



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File Attachments:


---
Date: Mon 14 Dec 2015 01:09:59 UTC  Name: autogame-T5000-Y06575-auto.sav.bz2 
Size: 136kB   By: jtn
good grief

---
Date: Mon 14 Dec 2015 01:09:59 UTC  Name: autogame.serv  Size: 247B   By: jtn
good grief


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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #1, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

Some of these AIs really don't need the money. Caesar has 26718 gold;
Mauricius I, 47164; and so on. (Some probably do; the Danes have only 86
gold.)

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #2, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

In an autogame with classic ruleset and the same code, Hard AIs have had no
trouble maintaining science output and reaching the end of the tech tree. So
it's something about civ2civ3.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[David Fernandez]

Follow-up Comment #3, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

I was going to play my first game with S2_6 and I noticed the same problem
about AI stuck with 100% gold.
I'll keep testing to see if I can find why it is more problematic in civ2civ3
than other rulesets.

However, I remember that everytime that I tested civ2civ3 in a new freeciv
version, they appeared similar AI issues (AI unable to end the tech tree),
that forced me to adjust the rules, mainly those related to upkeep costs and
government effects.

I'll check your savegame to see what government is used by each AI.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[David Fernandez]

Follow-up Comment #4, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

I think it is related to bug #21640.

Unless the code was changed since then, the AI was designed to maximize gold
tax rate when the state is "onwarfooting". Since "Hard" AI level allow them to
set it to 100%, they stop science research while attacking.

I'm not sure why this is not a problem with default rules, but I suppose the
AI is less prone to enter "onwarfooting" state with those rules.

My guess why it is worse in civ2civ3 is:
-default number of AIs is 12 instead of 5, so there are more wars.
-default map is continental, so it is easier to start an attack.
-it is easier to defend (harder to conquest a city), and harder to move in
enemy territory, so attacks require much more time.
-there are several governments without Senate that AI likes to use, while many
AIs in classic ruleset can not start a war due to Republic/Democracy
limitation.

It is just a guess, because I still do not know how to get AI code info/logs
while running a game, sorry.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[David Fernandez]

Follow-up Comment #5, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

However, I have found other problems that could make it worse in 2.6 than
previous versions. While playing civ2civ3, the AI in v2.6 seems unable to
develop their cities properly, or to finish the tech tree, even when at
peace.

1) For some reason, I have never seen the AI building a marketplace, a
library, or a Harbour in my testing games.
I see many AI cities stuck building "coinage", when they could (and should) be
building markets instead.

Again, I have not checked the code, but could it be that those cities have
decided that they should build caravans to create trade routes, and since they
are not allowed in civ2civ3, they fall back to coinage?

2) AI likes Tribal gobernment too much, maybe due to my latest change (bonus
to veterancy), and this is not a good way to make money or science.


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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #6, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

My random guess is that it's to do with gold_upkeep_style, which is set
differently in civ2civ3 than classic.

ISTR starting to look through the AI code and finding something which
supported this guess, but I got distracted and now can't remember what it was.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #7, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

I've just started a S2_6 autogame with civ2civ3 gold_upkeep_style changed back
to "City" to test my hypothesis.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #8, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

I think it might have helped? Not an entirely scientific test though, since I
used different svn versions:

AI research at T5000 in the original savegame I attached (from S2_6 r30966):

Iron Working
Trade
University
Gunpowder
Invention
Gunpowder
The Republic
Construction
Feudalism
Medicine
Electricity
University
Ceremonial Burial

The savegame I've just attached (from newer S2_6 r32239, with
gold_upkeep_style="City"):

Advanced Flight
Electricity
Feudalism
Navigation
Democracy
Democracy
Miniaturization
Feudalism
Refrigeration
Navigation
Miniaturization
Metallurgy
The Corporation
Navigation

I think some of this lot were stuck on their current research for a long time
(thousands of turns), but I haven't analysed the savegames further.

The obvious thing to do is to re-run the latter test but with the ruleset
unmodified.

(file #26986)
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Additional Item Attachment:

File name: autogame-T5000-Y06575-auto.sav.bz2 Size:127 KB


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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[David Fernandez]

Follow-up Comment #9, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

I have tested some more AI games with classic and civ2civ3 rules (S2_6) and
AIs have never built a marketplace, library or harbour.
I think there is some problem in the code that decides if those buildings are
worth to build.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #10, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

> The obvious thing to do is to re-run the latter test but with the ruleset
unmodified.

Done, attached. Research state:

Gunpowder
Gunpowder
Monarchy
Gunpowder
Gunpowder
Gunpowder
Gunpowder
Rocketry
Monotheism
Bridge Building
Metallurgy
Radio
Monarchy

(file #26992)
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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #11, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

In comment #6 I wrote:
> My random guess is that it's to do with gold_upkeep_style, 
> which is set differently in civ2civ3 than classic.
> 
> ISTR starting to look through the AI code and finding something 
> which supported this guess, but I got distracted and now can't 
> remember what it was.
Actually, on reflection, I think I didn't find any evidence for
gold_upkeep_style being the problem (although it appears to be contributing);
rather, I think I concluded that the AI was not really coping with having gold
upkeep for units at all. AIs that for whatever reason had found their way to a
non-gold-upkeep government like Communism had got much further in the tech
tree.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[David Fernandez]

Follow-up Comment #12, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

>AI was not really coping with having gold upkeep for units at all
I agree. But please, check if AIs are building marketplaces in your games. I
think there is an important issue there.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #13, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

> But please, check if AIs are building marketplaces in your games.
At no point in any of the three civ2civ3 autogames here (even the one with
gold_upkeep_style=City) do I have a turn-end savegame where the AI was
building Marketplace, Harbour, or Library. (I have savegames from every
turn.)
(I haven't checked whether a player somehow nevertheless ended up with one of
these buildings in a city, perhaps by changing production mid-turn, as that's
fiddlier to grep for. It seems unlikely.)

...that also seems to be true of my old classic-ruleset autogame from
December, though; apparently it's not civ2civ3-specific.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #14, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

...and S2_5 AI builds such buildings in both rulesets.
I think this not obviously related to civ2civ3 => bug #24526.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #24175] AIs inappropriately set tax to 100% gold, stopping science (civ2civ3 ruleset)

[Marko Lindqvist]

Follow-up Comment #15, bug #24175 (project freeciv):

Note that the biggest change to the AI code in S2_6 compared to S2_5 is that
'effect evaluation' has been generalized to be used for wants other than
building want (AI values also tech by the effects they provide directly, and
government wants are also calculated a bit different way compared to old
versions)

This things are certainly going to need some balancing before 2.6.0 is ready.

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