Re: [Freeciv-Dev] [patch #1238] Add nation: Toulousain
I don't get how Occitans (because it's a linguistic community) can be seen as an historical nation. Or maybe Occitan does mean something different in English ? Here are some hints for Toulouse after reading the french wiki : -Wisigoth Kingdom from 419 to 711 with Toulouse as Capital City (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royaume_wisigoth ) -Duchy of Aquitaine (independant) from 721 to 768 (you can add Eudes d'Aquitaine as ruler : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudes_d %27Aquitaine), Toulouse was detached from Narbonne and attached to Aquitaine in the early VI century (around 507 something). That's really all you got for a real Kingdom of the Toulousains, in 778 Charlemagne did create the Kingdom of Aquitaine and the County of Toulouse as part of it but it was not independant. There was also the Pépin the First then Pépin II rebellion but it didn't last so long (840-849) then it was attached to Francia Occidentalis http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francia_occidentalis . Now for the Cathares (or Albigeois as they were also named)… because it's probably what you are looking for : In 1167, Toulouse became one of the 5 independant cathare church rejecting catholicism. There was then a crusade against the rebelled cities that ended in 1229. Beginning in 1249 and Alphonse de Poitiers the Toulouse County is slowly absorbed by the Kingdom of France (from which it was a vassal previously). Note that it is Aliénor d'Aquitaine (also named Éléanore de Guyenne, Guyenne is the popular form of Aquitaine coming from Aguiaine). Cheers François Le 18 août 09 à 00:16, Joan Creus a écrit : Follow-up Comment #4, patch #1238 (project freeciv): I agree that it's hard to define the boundaries of these counties. In fact, the map of the County of Toulouse shown in the French wikipedia shows the county of Roussillon as part of the county of Toulouse in 1154. I have found no other source that confirms this. As far as I know, it was an independent county that became part of the kingdom of Aragon in 1172. Before the formal annexion, it had been the birthplace of the first Catalan count, and that's why it's always considered Catalan. This goes for Perpignan. But the Prades you mention is indeed Occitan. Daniel is the expert, here, but I believe that, for non-modern nations, it's OK in Freeciv to include cities that have been part of the empire at some point in time. I agree that it would be a good thing to include some women as rulers. I am not sure that Joana is considered a good queen for Occitans,though, since she is the one that sold out to the French King. If we expand the scope to all the Occitan counties and duchies, there is another excellent candidate, though: Alienòr d'Aquitània (Eleanor of Aquitaine), who must have been an extraordinary woman, who actually ruled as a duchess of Aquitaine, became Queen of France, divorced, married an English prince and became the mother of two English Kings (Richard the Lionheart and John Lackland). During her extremely long rule as Duchess (from the age of 15 until her death at 82) she had a very important role in European politics. So, if you want to add rulers or cities to the Occitan ruleset, feel free. Or I can do it for you, as you like. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/patch/?1238 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #1238] Add nation: Toulousain
Follow-up Comment #5, patch #1238 (project freeciv): Joan - I'll add Elinor and Felipa to your ruleset. Daniel - Please close this ticket; it is merging with patch #1246. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/patch/?1238 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #1238] Add nation: Toulousain
Update of patch #1238 (project freeciv): Status:None = Duplicate Open/Closed:Open = Closed ___ Follow-up Comment #6: Closed as duplicate. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/patch/?1238 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #1238] Add nation: Toulousain
Follow-up Comment #2, patch #1238 (project freeciv): I am not Occitan, nor an expert in Occitan history, but I think this ruleset has a few problems: - The county of Toulouse was one of several independent counties and duchies that existed in today's southern France. They shared a common language, but were never united under a single ruler. Some counties were intertwined with each other as fiefs, so this complicates the issue a little more. So, Foix and Carcasonne, although technically fiefs of Toulouse, were also de facto independent, quite powerful (and even waged war on Toulouse). - So, I would remove cities like Foix, and several villages around Foix, as well as Carcasonne. - The names of the rulers are incorrect. If given in French, they should be Raymond; in Occitan, they should be Raimon; the women should be Felipa and Joana. - Some cities do not belong at all here, not even as Occitan. Perpignan wasn't French until 1659, and belonged to the Kingdom of Catalonia-Aragon during all the Medieval period. Also, there are several Prades in the area, but the largest one is also Catalan. (There is a Prades near Foix, but it's only got 50 inhabitants) I haven't found a Carol, but if it means La Tour-de-Carol, that is also Catalan. - The ruleset uses the current official names of the cities, in French. I think that we should respect the original names, in Occitan: Tolosa, Montpelhièr, Besièrs, Cassanhas, ... At least, this is how they were called in the heyday of the Occitan counties. In short, if this ruleset is to be just Toulousain, it should use only cities that had belonged to the County of Toulouse. If we keep the list, then most of them (and a few rulers) could be merged with the Occitan ruleset. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/patch/?1238 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #1238] Add nation: Toulousain
Follow-up Comment #3, patch #1238 (project freeciv): Hi Joan, I'm also neither Occitan nor an expert in Occitan history. My main source of information was looking at maps in one of my books (on the history of the Cathars). The maps were in French, hence the French names for locations. I thought that the County of Toulouse had rather variable boundaries, and at one point did incorporate some of the cities you mentioned, although I may have made a mistake in including others (Foix in particular I considered for a while). Part of it's the same question I had with Granada: include the cities which are part of the country at its height, or only those which were consistently part of the country? I'd be happy to use your list of cities, however, in Occitan. The Prades I had in mind is located near Montaillou. It was a small village during the time in question. As for the rulers, the source there was Wikipedia. I would like to include some female rulers (in countries where there were some) because there aren't many of them in the current rulesets. So perhaps we could take your ruleset and simply add a few rulers to it? ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/patch/?1238 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #1238] Add nation: Toulousain
Follow-up Comment #4, patch #1238 (project freeciv): I agree that it's hard to define the boundaries of these counties. In fact, the map of the County of Toulouse shown in the French wikipedia shows the county of Roussillon as part of the county of Toulouse in 1154. I have found no other source that confirms this. As far as I know, it was an independent county that became part of the kingdom of Aragon in 1172. Before the formal annexion, it had been the birthplace of the first Catalan count, and that's why it's always considered Catalan. This goes for Perpignan. But the Prades you mention is indeed Occitan. Daniel is the expert, here, but I believe that, for non-modern nations, it's OK in Freeciv to include cities that have been part of the empire at some point in time. I agree that it would be a good thing to include some women as rulers. I am not sure that Joana is considered a good queen for Occitans,though, since she is the one that sold out to the French King. If we expand the scope to all the Occitan counties and duchies, there is another excellent candidate, though: Alienòr d'Aquitània (Eleanor of Aquitaine), who must have been an extraordinary woman, who actually ruled as a duchess of Aquitaine, became Queen of France, divorced, married an English prince and became the mother of two English Kings (Richard the Lionheart and John Lackland). During her extremely long rule as Duchess (from the age of 15 until her death at 82) she had a very important role in European politics. So, if you want to add rulers or cities to the Occitan ruleset, feel free. Or I can do it for you, as you like. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/patch/?1238 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #1238] Add nation: Toulousain
Update of patch #1238 (project freeciv): Assigned to:None = dmarks ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/patch/?1238 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #1238] Add nation: Toulousain
Follow-up Comment #1, patch #1238 (project freeciv): Should perhaps be merged with patch #1246 (Occitan, not Andorran). ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/patch/?1238 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #1238] Add nation: Toulousain
Additional Item Attachment, patch #1238 (project freeciv): File name: toulousain.diffSize:6 KB ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/patch/?1238 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #1238] Add nation: Toulousain
Additional Item Attachment, patch #1238 (project freeciv): File name: toulousain.diffSize:6 KB ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/patch/?1238 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #1238] Add nation: Toulousain
Additional Item Attachment, patch #1238 (project freeciv): File name: toulousain.diffSize:6 KB ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/patch/?1238 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #1238] Add nation: Toulousain
URL: http://gna.org/patch/?1238 Summary: Add nation: Toulousain Project: Freeciv Submitted by: kudra Submitted on: Sunday 08/09/2009 at 15:21 Category: rulesets Priority: 3 - Low Status: None Privacy: Public Assigned to: None Originator Email: Open/Closed: Open Discussion Lock: Any ___ Details: This patch adds the medieval territory the county of Toulouse, an independent nation from the 9th through 13th centuries. The flag image was found on wikipedia and is in the public domain. As with the Amazons (patch #1220), I am not attaching the png files but can upload them or deliver them as requested (the FTP server is still timing out). Again, I have created two patches--the first contains only text files (plus svg), while the second contains references to the png files. ___ File Attachments: --- Date: Sunday 08/09/2009 at 15:21 Name: toulousain.diff Size: 7kB By: kudra http://gna.org/patch/download.php?file_id=6397 --- Date: Sunday 08/09/2009 at 15:21 Name: toulousain_with_images.diff Size: 8kB By: kudra http://gna.org/patch/download.php?file_id=6398 ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/patch/?1238 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
