Re: [Freedos-devel] Contemplations, Considerations and some Conclusions
Hello Jerome, Second… I really haven’t looked into this one at all. But, I think it would be possible to use Core Boot, SeaBios or something else to provide Legacy BIOS support ourselves on UEFI only systems. This would be a good deal of work. It also still leaves the problem of sound drivers and other hardware support. This might also require some thin hardware emulation layer. But, it should be doable. About this particular direction: (1) One problem with SeaBIOS --- as it now stands --- is that it uses a very specific memory layout, and the precise addresses of all the base memory areas that it needs to are all fixed at build time. I have been tinkering with the SeaBIOS code and trying to see if I can get it to load in RAM rather than ROM, and possibly get parts of it to go into extended memory (https://github.com/tkchia/seabiosify), but this is definitely non-trivial. (And, it is possible that I am doing it all wrong...) One attractive thing about the SeaBIOS code is that it seems to include support for USB, including USB keyboards. (2) I have had some success meanwhile in getting a UEFI program to look for legacy option ROMs (e.g. for VGA) in the system firmware, and bring them up --- see https://github.com/tkchia/biefircate . Admittedly, this only really works on systems that still have some degree of support for legacy APIs. (3) So I guess yes, this general direction will almost certainly be a good deal of work, and we will probably need all the help we can get. Thank you! -- https://gitlab.com/tkchia :: https://github.com/tkchia ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Contemplations, Considerations and some Conclusions
Hi, For me the last option (use Linux as VMM) would be the most sensible, needing the least support effort for hardware and drivers: the Linux guys will do it :) Hardware-based DOS distributions will never get outdated because Linux never will. I think we talked about this option some time in one of the sunday meetings: in my opinion, the nicest option would be if there was a sufficiently small Linux distro that could be stripped down up to just running DOSEMU (or xDOSEMU), maybe just one console, or maybe several (if that old Ctrl+Alt+Fx is an option). Just a thought and opinion, I wish I had some spare time myself to get into such endeavour. Aitor On Sat, 15 Jan 2022 at 13:33, Jerome Shidel wrote: > Hello all, > > I’ve got a couple thoughts regarding the OS release media I wanted to > throw out to you all. These are just things I was pondering and by no means > I’m I saying any of these are going to happen. They are just some ideas I’d > like to share with you and get feedback on… > > As you know, the LiveCD uses multiple boot images. A floppy one that > starts the Live Environment. A second floppy one that launches directly > into the installer. Finally, a third small hard disk image to run the > FloppyEdition installer without need for OS level CD support. > > Do you think the FloppyEdition installer should be given it’s own entry in > the CD boot menu? Or, leave it as an “EasterEgg” boot by selecting the > copyright notice on the menu? > > Personally, I don’t see either as a perfect solution. If it is left as an > EasterEgg, many people will never know it is there. Don’t forget, that > installer does not need any OS level CD support. If a machine can boot it, > it can pretty much install FreeDOS on anything. On the other hand, I think > moving it to it’s own menu item will just confuse users by having 2 > different “Install FreeDOS options”. > > Another possibility is drop the current “Install” option. Replacing it > with the Floppy Edition. Maybe call it something like “Install FreeDOS BASE > only.” After all, there is no problem running the primary installer from > the Live Environment. But again, I think users will pick the wrong thing. > > This now brings me to the Legacy CD. > > It boots using a different process than the LiveCD (See numerous previous > posts on those differences). This provides CD booting on a narrow range of > hardware that can boot from CD but not use the method employed by the > LiveCD. There is a CD Boot Floppy included in the LiveCD download zip > archive. So, do we really need to keep the LegacyCD around? > > The emulated Floppy the LegacyCD boots is the same as the current LiveCD’s > boot to install menu option. If the LegacyCD sticks around, the image it > boot’s could be switched to the one used by the LiveCD’s boot to Live > Environment. This would provide a Live Environment on that legacy hardware. > But, then what would we call things. They’d both be LiveCDs. > > Finally (at least for now), along with the LiveCD and LegacyCD a CD boot > floppy image is included. We could include a second floppy image to boot > the Live Environment when direct booting from a CD is not possible. But, it > could also cause confusion on what to use or burn to CD or Floppy. So, IDK. > > I changed my mind. Thats not all just yet. > > A lot of users want to run FreeDOS from USB. As I see it, there are > several issues with that. > > First, you cannot guarantee that when booted from USB that drive will be > writable. Personally, I’ve never seen when it was write protected. But, > during the early days of developing the installer for 1.2, I learned that > it was sometimes the case and attempts to use it for temp storage resulted > in the users machine screaming very loud beeps and throwing write errors. > So, the installer was modified and always assumes it’s boot media is > write-protected. > > Next, I don’t think users want a temporary Live Environment for USB usage. > They probably want the programs they install and the changes they make to > remain for next time. They also probably want the full capacity of the USB > drive. > > That is problematic. Without spending the time to write our own custom > “Write to USB” program, most will be stuck writing the standard USB images > directly too the USB media. I don’t see us making our own custom image > burner to stretch the filesystem for all the major OS platforms. So, that’s > out for the foreseeable future. > > Probably most systems will only do USB HD emulation when booted from that > USB drive (although I have some machines here that do it even when booted > from the HD as long as the USB stick is inserted), the best solution I’ve > come up with has been around for a while. More or less I refer to it as an > OEM style install. I demonstrated it in a YouTube video with FreeDOS 1.2. > Basically, you just write the USB install image to the drive. Then boot it > and exit the installer. Use FDISK to create a separate partition on the
[Freedos-devel] Contemplations, Considerations and some Conclusions
Hello all, I’ve got a couple thoughts regarding the OS release media I wanted to throw out to you all. These are just things I was pondering and by no means I’m I saying any of these are going to happen. They are just some ideas I’d like to share with you and get feedback on… As you know, the LiveCD uses multiple boot images. A floppy one that starts the Live Environment. A second floppy one that launches directly into the installer. Finally, a third small hard disk image to run the FloppyEdition installer without need for OS level CD support. Do you think the FloppyEdition installer should be given it’s own entry in the CD boot menu? Or, leave it as an “EasterEgg” boot by selecting the copyright notice on the menu? Personally, I don’t see either as a perfect solution. If it is left as an EasterEgg, many people will never know it is there. Don’t forget, that installer does not need any OS level CD support. If a machine can boot it, it can pretty much install FreeDOS on anything. On the other hand, I think moving it to it’s own menu item will just confuse users by having 2 different “Install FreeDOS options”. Another possibility is drop the current “Install” option. Replacing it with the Floppy Edition. Maybe call it something like “Install FreeDOS BASE only.” After all, there is no problem running the primary installer from the Live Environment. But again, I think users will pick the wrong thing. This now brings me to the Legacy CD. It boots using a different process than the LiveCD (See numerous previous posts on those differences). This provides CD booting on a narrow range of hardware that can boot from CD but not use the method employed by the LiveCD. There is a CD Boot Floppy included in the LiveCD download zip archive. So, do we really need to keep the LegacyCD around? The emulated Floppy the LegacyCD boots is the same as the current LiveCD’s boot to install menu option. If the LegacyCD sticks around, the image it boot’s could be switched to the one used by the LiveCD’s boot to Live Environment. This would provide a Live Environment on that legacy hardware. But, then what would we call things. They’d both be LiveCDs. Finally (at least for now), along with the LiveCD and LegacyCD a CD boot floppy image is included. We could include a second floppy image to boot the Live Environment when direct booting from a CD is not possible. But, it could also cause confusion on what to use or burn to CD or Floppy. So, IDK. I changed my mind. Thats not all just yet. A lot of users want to run FreeDOS from USB. As I see it, there are several issues with that. First, you cannot guarantee that when booted from USB that drive will be writable. Personally, I’ve never seen when it was write protected. But, during the early days of developing the installer for 1.2, I learned that it was sometimes the case and attempts to use it for temp storage resulted in the users machine screaming very loud beeps and throwing write errors. So, the installer was modified and always assumes it’s boot media is write-protected. Next, I don’t think users want a temporary Live Environment for USB usage. They probably want the programs they install and the changes they make to remain for next time. They also probably want the full capacity of the USB drive. That is problematic. Without spending the time to write our own custom “Write to USB” program, most will be stuck writing the standard USB images directly too the USB media. I don’t see us making our own custom image burner to stretch the filesystem for all the major OS platforms. So, that’s out for the foreseeable future. Probably most systems will only do USB HD emulation when booted from that USB drive (although I have some machines here that do it even when booted from the HD as long as the USB stick is inserted), the best solution I’ve come up with has been around for a while. More or less I refer to it as an OEM style install. I demonstrated it in a YouTube video with FreeDOS 1.2. Basically, you just write the USB install image to the drive. Then boot it and exit the installer. Use FDISK to create a separate partition on the USB drive and reboot. Because who knows what all drives are in the machine and how they will be ordered, use FDISK to verify the drive letter. If its drive D:, just run the installer again. If it is not drive D:, run the installer in advanced mode and tell it the appropriate drive. Once install completes, just reboot. It will boot into the installed partition. This leaves the original installer boot partition as a “OEM” style recovery partition. It also lets FDIMPLES use that recovery partition as a package source to add and remove addition programs. Not a perfect solution. But one I’ve used many times on internal hard drives and even USB sticks. Ok, finally for now (this time I mean it). We come to UEFI and modern hardware. With modern hardware vendors dropping support for
