Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
On 8/18/06, Michael Devore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If someone wanted to create a ruckus, they could point out that every time someone allowed a commercial program for testing and debugging be sent to anyone else, they technically violated copyright. And that's been accepted practice for years, to the point that professional trouble-shooter is, or was, a career. It's rumored that even the big software houses would use them on occasion. Accepted by whom? If that wasn't accepted by copyright holders, then it was illegal. And I think that I'll act illegally because others are acting illegally is extremely stupid argument to use. Anyway I do know that I live in a fallen world and most people don't want to live according to the will of the God of the Bible. -- Markus Laire - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006, Andreas Bollhalder wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Markus Laire wrote: I think it's quite clear that www.bootdisk.com is a warez-site. Where did you read that ? Do you really know, that they don't have asked for permission ? I saw this site mentioned in some really legal magazines... They'd prolly say if they had. I think that it should be illegal to use software obtained from warez-site even if you have a license to use that software. Why ? If you can't buy this software anymore and your medias are corrupt, you should be legaly able to get it from there. I agree, but the world doesn't always work the way we want it to. :( Frankly, I think software copyright should be limited to 10 years max, but there's no way that's happening. --; -uso. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
Hi! 19-Авг-2006 15:04 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Markus Laire) wrote to freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net: ML You didn't mention the software there, only the license, so I throught ML that you meant that you could give a license to someone else, and ML he/she should then download the program from illegal warez site like ML www.bootdisk.com If I have license, then this is unimportant, how I acquire program itself: in company own shop on physical media, like floppies; in some 3rd party computer shop; through network wires from company site or shop site or somewhat else. At least, until license (as all seen by me licenses) doesn't cover method of receiving program image. (Usually) licenses only cover usage of program. ML I think it's quite clear that www.bootdisk.com is a warez-site. ML I think that it should be illegal to use software obtained from ML warez-site even if you have a license to use that software. Even if we forget, that many commercial licenses itself break laws (for example, by explicitly prohibit making backup of media with program image), anyway using 3rd party site for legal backup copies isn't illegal! Don't ascribe us guilty, which not exist! ML (warez meaning copyrighted material traded in violation of ML copyright law., from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warez ) Knife may be used for cutting bread and for killing. Does using knife for killing makes it illegal for using in any case (including cutting bread)? - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Markus Laire wrote: On 8/17/06, Mark Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Michael: Try www.bootdisk.com. boot622.exe will extract a usable MSDOS boot Is that legal? I didn't find any kind of legal FAQ from that site. Nope. -uso. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
Hi! Try www.bootdisk.com. ... Is that legal? Nope. So FreeDOS 1.0 will be buggy software, created using illegal software. I would not say so. Michael compared MS DOS behaviour to FreeDOS behaviour to find a bug. To ensure compatibility (interoperability), even limited reverse engineering would have been allowed in Germany. But that was not even necessary, as only the behaviour, not the code, of MS DOS was checked to find what turned out to be a bug in QuickBASIC 4... Yet I suggest that experiments with MS DOS are best done by those people who already do own MS DOS. Normally we get reports like this works on MS DOS and when I change to FreeDOS it breaks, so the bug reporters are likely to be MS DOS owners :-). But then, those are often no programmers. If you want maximum legality, we could purchase a copy of MS DOS for testing purposes. (Buggy because FreeDOS 1.0 is being rushed out without proper bug-fixing period.) You are free to report bugs at any time. Actually you could have started reporting bugs years ago, so I would not say that FreeDOS 1.0 is released prematurely or is rushed out. Doesn't sound too good... You probably know that MS DOS 1.0 did not even support subdirectories... ;-). While FreeDOS 1.0 is delayed because we keep adding features to our wishlist. Some of which are beyond MS DOS 6.xx! So, please let me (or us) know which aspects of FreeDOS are still broken enough to justify further delays in the FreeDOS 1.0 release. I do think that if we compare to Linux, FreeDOS 1.0 is worth at least the maturity of Linux 2.2 :-). Eric - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
On 8/18/06, Lyrical Nanoha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Markus Laire wrote: On 8/17/06, Mark Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Michael: Try www.bootdisk.com. boot622.exe will extract a usable MSDOS boot Is that legal? I didn't find any kind of legal FAQ from that site. Nope. So FreeDOS 1.0 will be buggy software, created using illegal software. (Buggy because FreeDOS 1.0 is being rushed out without proper bug-fixing period.) Doesn't sound too good... -- Markus Laire - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
Eric Auer wrote: Hi! Try www.bootdisk.com. ... Is that legal? Nope. So FreeDOS 1.0 will be buggy software, created using illegal software. I would not say so. Michael compared MS DOS behaviour to FreeDOS behaviour to find a bug. To ensure compatibility (interoperability), even limited reverse engineering would have been allowed in Germany. But that was not even necessary, as only the behaviour, not the code, of MS DOS was checked to find what turned out to be a bug in QuickBASIC 4... Yet I suggest that experiments with MS DOS are best done by those people who already do own MS DOS. Normally we get reports like this works on MS DOS and when I change to FreeDOS it breaks, so the bug reporters are likely to be MS DOS owners :-). But then, those are often no programmers. If you want maximum legality, we could purchase a copy of MS DOS for testing purposes. Eric, here is your signboard :D Please don't feed the trolls. It's not good for them, nor is it for us ;) P.S. I am sure I have a stack of MS-DOS licenses somewhere in the basement. If someone really wants to have one, feel free to apply. Just to close this IMO silly thread ;) Best regards, Andre - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
Hi! 18-Авг-2006 13:25 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Markus Laire) wrote to freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net: Try www.bootdisk.com. boot622.exe will extract a usable MSDOS boot Is that legal? I didn't find any kind of legal FAQ from that site. Nope. ML So FreeDOS 1.0 will be buggy software, created using illegal software. (Some local) laws allows to dig into other programs internals to make own program compatible. Well, this is somewhat obscure (for non-lawyers), but I suggest, _testing_ some program together with commercial one is not the same, as (illegally) using unlicensed copy. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
On 8/18/06, Andre Tertling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would not say so. Michael compared MS DOS behaviour to FreeDOS behaviour to find a bug. To ensure compatibility (interoperability), even limited reverse engineering would have been allowed in Germany. But that was not IMHO reverse engineering a legally acquired program is completely different thing than using illegally acquired program. even necessary, as only the behaviour, not the code, of MS DOS was checked to find what turned out to be a bug in QuickBASIC 4... Yet I suggest that experiments with MS DOS are best done by those people who already do own MS DOS. Normally we get reports like this works on MS DOS and when I change to FreeDOS it breaks, so the bug reporters are likely to be MS DOS owners :-). But then, those are often no programmers. If you want maximum legality, we could purchase a copy of MS DOS for testing purposes. Eric, here is your signboard :D Please don't feed the trolls. It's not good for them, nor is it for us ;) P.S. I am sure I have a stack of MS-DOS licenses somewhere in the basement. If someone really wants to have one, feel free to apply. I don't really know if it's legal to use illegally acquired program if you have a license for the program but not the program itself. Just to close this IMO silly thread ;) I find it sad that many Free Software/Open Source developers find it silly or trolling to fully consider legal matters, and I'm not talking just FreeDOS. But if you do not wish to discuss this matter, I can shut up. -- Markus Laire - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
On 8/18/06, Eric Auer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You probably know that MS DOS 1.0 did not even support subdirectories... ;-). While FreeDOS 1.0 is delayed because we keep adding features to our wishlist. Some of which are beyond MS DOS 6.xx! I wasn't really thinking MS DOS 1.0, but the attitude that 1.0 version is a bug-free version which doesn't have any known bugs and preferably not even unknown ones. So, please let me (or us) know which aspects of FreeDOS are still broken enough to justify further delays in the FreeDOS 1.0 release. I do think that if we compare to Linux, FreeDOS 1.0 is worth at least the maturity of Linux 2.2 :-). It's just that the general attitude here recently seems to be that FreeDOS 1.0 will be released soon, whether it has known bugs or not. -- Markus Laire - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
Markus Laire wrote: I don't really know if it's legal to use illegally acquired program if you have a license for the program but not the program itself. Do you really want to start a lengthy discussion about whether I am using a legitimately created backup with my original license or not? For heaven's sake, I'll ship the original discs along with the license. I find it sad that many Free Software/Open Source developers find it silly or trolling to fully consider legal matters, and I'm not talking just FreeDOS. Fully considering as in I'll sue you to death like SCO? Of course, it is important not to open the door wide enough for lawyers and the like. But this particular case and, especially, your inappropriately truncated summary why FreeDOS is illegal make you look like a troll. It would help tremendously if you could elaborate a bit on your thoughts - and not just state that you don't like FreeDOS because it is illegal. Apart from that you probably don't even know if anything illegal took place at all - you just imagine it *could* be, and thus it has to. But if you do not wish to discuss this matter, I can shut up. Substantiate your statements better next time and everything will be fine. Best regards, Andre - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
At 01:06 PM 8/18/2006 +0200, Andre Tertlingwrote: P.S. I am sure I have a stack of MS-DOS licenses somewhere in the basement. If someone really wants to have one, feel free to apply. Heck, I still have at least two sets of MS-DOS floppies down in basement somewhere. Don't know if they work, but they're down there. The ZEOS is long gone, though. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
So to end this thread, since Michael already seems to own MS-DOS but just wants an easier way of getting it on his hard drive, it is perfectly legal to use. On 8/18/06, Michael Devore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:06 PM 8/18/2006 +0200, Andre Tertlingwrote: P.S. I am sure I have a stack of MS-DOS licenses somewhere in the basement. If someone really wants to have one, feel free to apply. Heck, I still have at least two sets of MS-DOS floppies down in basement somewhere. Don't know if they work, but they're down there. The ZEOS is long gone, though. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel -- Fall is my favorite season in Los Angeles, watching the birds change color and fall from the trees. David Letterman (1947 - ) See ya - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
At 10:54 AM 8/18/2006 -0700, Blair Campbell wrote: So to end this thread, since Michael already seems to own MS-DOS but just wants an easier way of getting it on his hard drive, it is perfectly legal to use. Well, who doesn't have legal MS-DOS, if they ever had a machine back when. It was included on about everything. I probably have recycled a dozen legally MS-DOS licensed machines. I know I've thrown away a lot of the old floppies with DOS. And on a diminishing level with later versions of operating systems ever since. I've even recycled a legal Win 2000 and a Win XP licensed machine into oblivion, for which I personally bought the licenses. Cost of doing business. If someone wanted to create a ruckus, they could point out that every time someone allowed a commercial program for testing and debugging be sent to anyone else, they technically violated copyright. And that's been accepted practice for years, to the point that professional trouble-shooter is, or was, a career. It's rumored that even the big software houses would use them on occasion. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
I feel it's important to get 1.0 out there to draw a line in the sand, that we're at least 1.0 quality. We can do what MS-DOS could do. Maybe we have a few bugs, but (and maybe this is a sad fact) what 1.0 software doesn't have bugs? People expect it. But marking a 1.0 release means you can start to work on stuff after 1.0. For example: I really want to extend what capabilities you have available in DOS. -jh Blair Campbell wrote: Much 1.0 software is released with known bugs. We never said that FreeDOS 1.0 would be bug free. On 8/18/06, Markus Laire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/18/06, Eric Auer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You probably know that MS DOS 1.0 did not even support subdirectories... ;-). While FreeDOS 1.0 is delayed because we keep adding features to our wishlist. Some of which are beyond MS DOS 6.xx! I wasn't really thinking MS DOS 1.0, but the attitude that 1.0 version is a bug-free version which doesn't have any known bugs and preferably not even unknown ones. -- This email message has been encrypted using the ROT-26 cipher. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
Hi Michael: Try www.bootdisk.com. boot622.exe will extract a usable MSDOS boot floppy. It wants a disk drive...if you don't have one, I'd suggest using VFD to capture the image. (A very useful program that assigns a drive letter to a virtual floppy disk drive and can use a file as a floppy). http://chitchat.at.infoseek.co.jp/vmware/vfd.html Mark Bailey Michael Devore wrote: [sent again with the right SourceForge-approved e-mail address this time] Anybody have a MS-DOS 5.x or 6.x image around I could use? I need to do some side-by-side testing in Qemu of MS-DOS against FreeDOS. I had an image, but it seems to have gone missing. Thanks. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] MS-DOS image
At 04:54 PM 8/17/2006 -0400, Mark Bailey wrote: Try www.bootdisk.com. boot622.exe will extract a usable MSDOS boot floppy. Cool deal. What you sent boots up under Qemu no problemo. Thanks. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=120709bid=263057dat=121642 ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
