Re: [Freedos-user] DOS and PDFs (Was Re: Update wiki info on installing ftp on a virualbox guest?
There is Acrobat Reader 1.0 for MSDOS but it does not support modern PDF format. I'm sure it has evolved so much that none of the current PDFs work with it anyway. It's available though on winworldpc for download and check. If that doesn't work then I assume porting some open source to DOS is the only option to get legitimate MS DOS support for the format with this or that rendering option (VESA/SVGA based I assume) -h1 On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 5:14 PM Michael Brutman wrote: > I think it is pretty safe to assume that everybody using FreeDOS in the > last 10 to 20 years has access to another, more capable device that can > read PDFs. Even low end cell phones have had this capability for the past > 5 years. > > I started with pure TXT files, composed on the same DOS machine that I did > my coding and testing on. But even in 2013 those files were adding up to > more than 210K across 16 files. Just like I migrated from using a hardware > 80386 to a cross compiler for the code in 2011, I migrated the documented > for PDF in 2015. The PDF format lets me do far better formatting and > screen shots, which are useful for clear documentation. > > As cool as it would be to have everything self contained and self hosted > within DOS, that's not our reality. I think it's more important to use the > appropriate tools for the job, PDF is very good for documentation - just > not on DOS. Given that everybody probably has access to something that can > read PDFs, there is not much of a reason to downgrade carefully written and > formatted documentation. > > I am concerned about these kinds of things because I do put a lot of > energy into ensuring my work is properly packaged. It's probably possible > to export the PDF has HTML, but again I'd want to do that myself to ensure > the formatting stays reasonable. (And even then, the generated HTML is not > going to be usable on the 16 bit machines with CGA that I target.) > > > -Mike > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Virtual get-together
No offence meant here, most likely I have missed it. Normally I'd say 2 weeks should be enough to spot it. It's December and people (including me) have minds closer to Christmas, families and how to get organized in these crazy times. ;) Next time I'll try to be more focused not to miss it as the idea is great. On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 2:21 AM Jim Hall wrote: > I announced the virtual get-together here a few weeks beforehand, in > several places: email list, website, Facebook, Twitter. For example, the > website still shows the announcement from "2020-11-28 4:47pm" to say the > virtual get-together will be "Sunday, December 13 at 11am US/Central. Use > your favorite timezone converter to find your local time." That was two > weeks' notice. > > Did you need more than two weeks' heads-up? > > The next one will probably be Sun, Jan 17 or Sun, Jan 24, but I haven't > decided the exact date yet. (I'm leaning to the latter date, based on other > projects.) > > Jim > > > On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 2:39 PM Hollowone PL > wrote: > >> Yep, would be great to give people heads-up to plan availability for the >> meeting. >> >> Thanks, >> /h1 >> >> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 1:08 AM Jim Hall wrote: >> >>> Sorry we missed you. I think we'll make this a regular thing. So we'll >>> do another one in January. >>> >>> Maybe on a monthly schedule for now. Since today (December 13) is "mid >>> December" then the next one will be sometime around "mid January." >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 4:39 PM Bryan Kilgallin >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jim: >>>> >>>> > The FreeDOS virtual get-together is on now! >>>> >>>> I hadn't realised that this was on then. I had just gone back to bed. >>>> Having been up an hour earlier, due to insomnia! >>> >>> ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Virtual get-together
Yep, would be great to give people heads-up to plan availability for the meeting. Thanks, /h1 On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 1:08 AM Jim Hall wrote: > Sorry we missed you. I think we'll make this a regular thing. So we'll do > another one in January. > > Maybe on a monthly schedule for now. Since today (December 13) is "mid > December" then the next one will be sometime around "mid January." > > Jim > > On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 4:39 PM Bryan Kilgallin > wrote: > >> Jim: >> >> > The FreeDOS virtual get-together is on now! >> >> I hadn't realised that this was on then. I had just gone back to bed. >> Having been up an hour earlier, due to insomnia! >> -- >> members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/ >> >> >> ___ >> Freedos-user mailing list >> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user >> > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] What do you do with your FreeDos PC?
I have dual boot FreeDOS and WIndows 7 on one spare retro-ish computer that I dedicated to it. When on WIndows I'm connected to the network and also I can natively see FAT32 partition that is represented by FreeDOS. Then my custom UEFI boot manager loads FreeDOS with all the stuff desired for a bit of old school offline experience in its terminal. I do various bare metal coding experiments in DOS mostly these days. Trying to discover the true magic of the computer I installed it on. I treat it as a hobby fed by nostalgia, some people repair old cars after hours, some dwell into the past of computing like me. /h1 On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 9:19 PM Marv wrote: > I know I'm late to the FreeDos party, but it would help me and maybe other > newcomers to know what you guys do with your FreeDos PCs. I was thinking of > utility type things that are easier or more quickly done in DOS, but I'm > wide open to any ideas. > > So far I've got programs like Supercalc, Wordstar, GWBasic, DBase, etc > working. I transfer files back and forth to my Windows PC using FTP over my > local network. > > -- > It's all fun and games until someone divides by zero. > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] DOS/16M (was: FreeDOS 1.2 installed on iMac (2011) - success but there are issues)
Yep, that is correct. Due to it, I had to recompile my own OpenWatcom build using a different extender for runtime to continue using it (which is fine). I also continue investigating the root cause of that limitation. Just spoke to rEFInd developer to assess his opinion. Seems that he shares one of the comments from this thread, that there is most likely a limitation of CSM/BIOS implementation in Apple's own EFI implementation of the Legacy mode. But as this is nothing you can't go around with, it's not a show stopper to me to continue testing the environment. To wrap this up I wanted to thank you for identifying the direction for further investigation (keyboard controller with limited BIOS/CSM compatibility on the platform and a bug/trigger in DOS4GW that is generating the crash + error as the final outcome). I'm instantly glad that I've joined the group. Very competent and quick feedback that helped me keep the problem analysis narrow. Thank you, /h1 On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 6:23 AM TK Chia wrote: > Hello Ralf Quint, > > > I am not sure if you guys all missed a previous post where I said I > > found a reference that there are issues with some SMM BIOS > > implementations, providing legacy USB support (for keyboard and mice) > > and software that is trying to switch in "long mode" (which also might > > be used by some memory managers). > > Which could simply mean that this no-so-PC BIOS in that Mac just isn't > > up to snuff for these kind of things... > > Well, we do have some detailed information about this particular error. > Namely, there is a message saying "DOS/16M: [26] 8042 timeout", and > using a different DOS extender or pre-loading a DPMI host seems to work > around it. > > Thank you! > > -- > https://github.com/tkchia > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] DOS/16M (was: FreeDOS 1.2 installed on iMac (2011) - success but there are issues)
This is a very interesting point regarding the keyboard. I have a standard USB keyboard (actually from Microsoft) that is connected to this iMac and standard HIC USB mouse that works with I think everything (including a few FPGA computers I run retro stuff on. With such a setup, the keyboard works at the system level. I can type commands, NC/NDN works and when I compile apps with Watcom standard keyboard related functions from stdio/stdlib work too (getch(), etc). But when I try to assess port 0x60 for keyboard events directly this mechanism does not trigger anything at all. Also mouse does not work, microsoft mouse.com and ctmouse both say I don't have a device connected to my computer. One of the prereq. exercises I wanted to check is to try some code I found on the internet to directly connect to my USB mouse interface and discover it without PS/2 emulation VGA + VESA (graphics) works. It's discovered VESA 3.0 with LFB, all the resolution that this Mac supports on Windows/Mac are enslisted via video mode enumerator. I had no time yet though to check how completely VESA 3.0 standard is implemented. Sound card related experiments are still in front of me but I cannot find anybody and anything over the internet that can tell me somebody successfully implemented HD Audio interface for DOS programs. -- Now back to the exception I'm getting. Interesting fact is that it's triggered when I launch dos4gw (1.97) apps. Launching the stub itself generates the exception as well. I assume that inside dos4gw there is some dos/16m code and error messaging that just shows up. Is it a bug in the dos4gw or it just does not know how to interpret this environment including BIOS services provided by rEFInd? Subject of further investigation. Definitively PMODE/W apps work, CWSDPMI and DOS32 work positively as well. DOS4GW 1.97 is the trigger. Interesting additional note though. I have tried to open Heretic in that setup, no sound of course but just to check if it will work (as I know doom engine was compiled using watcom and dos4gw). It uses DOS4GW 1.97 and it works... keyboard does not as it uses 0x60 port so hard reboot was required to come back to the OS ;-) That's what I know so far. My investigation continues. Thanks for the hint that it may be actually an incomplete BIOS emulation that rEFInd provides. CSM, I assume it should be part of rEFInd implementation, right? How can I check its capabilities to follow your suggestion regarding CSM? /h1 On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 12:10 AM Eric Auer wrote: > > Hi! > > > After quick reboot my steps to repro the problem are as following: > > -> FreeDOS boots up, I enter NDN, browse to OpenWatcom 1.9 BINW folder > and > > type 'wmake' > > > > [Result] > > App shows all the info it should for no targets specified, I assume on > exit > > it just crashes and hangs the whole system with a message: > > DOS/16M error: [26] 8042 timeout > > DOS/16M error: [26] 8042 timeout > ... > > The 8042 is the keyboard controller. You are using the rEFInd boot > manager on iMac, without Bootcamp. I assume that means you had to > load some CSM, either provided by Apple or by rEFInd, to have BIOS > services for FreeDOS? Apparently it does not simulate a keyboard > controller, while DOS/16M, the DOS extender of your app, is trying > to access the keyboard without relying on BIOS services for that? > > DOS itself expects mostly BIOS services to exist, it does not use > much hardware directly. Exceptions could include the PC speaker for > FreeCOM command com beeping. DOS apps tend to rely on DOS, but in > particular for graphics, they may expect VGA hardware and not just > VGA BIOS services. For sound, barely any DOS app uses the BIOS and > BIOS sound services such as VBE/AI are not supported by classic DOS > sound cards predating them. > > So it is a very interesting question what works and what does not > work with your iMac setup. I would hope that at least some graphics, > disk, keyboard and mouse do work? Please tell me more about your > CSM or similar components and their DOS support. > > While it is not exactly DOS/16M, you could try DOS4GW alternative > DOS32A https://dos32a.narechk.net/index_en.html for improved > compatibility or pre-load DPMIONE or at least CWSDPMI to force > other DOS extenders to rely on the pre-loaded services instead. > > Regards, Eric > > >> *[1] How did I install FreeDOS on iMac* > >> That was relatively easy once I installed this boot manager: > >> https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/ > >> With it I can install Linux, Windows and FreeDOS from a bootable CD or > USB > ... > > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] DOS/16M (was: FreeDOS 1.2 installed on iMac (2011) - success but there are issues)
Thanks for your replies, to address your comments in one message: *[1] How did I install FreeDOS on iMac* That was relatively easy once I installed this boot manager: https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/ With it I can install Linux, Windows and FreeDOS from a bootable CD or USB quite easily and aside of FreeDOS, no Bootcamp is required to start the process. Happy to provide more step by step instructions if they are really required. *[2] 64bit stub. *Yes I'm aware of the software and the code. The sample code actually ran quite well *[3] As for the errors with DOS16/M exceptions and other errors I'm experiencing.* Actually that has nothing yet to do with 64bit tests I wanted to do. Once I installed FreeDOS I have migrated there a lot of test software to experiment with. Starting from Norton Commander 5.0 and the latest build of Necromancer's DOS Navigator. Tried to launch various demoscene demos of the late 90ties, even tried Doom. Then I tried Open Watcom 1.9 from FreeDOS packages to start compiling some code found to support my experiment. What I found is that unzip provided with the FreeDOS is generating the error. Various DOS4GW based 32bit demoscene demos are causing it and also Open Watcom compiler and wmake is crashing my system with these exceptions as well. Funny Watcom 10.6 works just fine. Additional interesting symptom I see is that when I copy files or unzip files that have lots of files (or perhaps larger one, I'm not sure yet), it just freezes the system endlessly. I just reboot, I have no patience to check if this is some 15 minutes (the longest streak) cache issue or it just crashed with no system or app level handler for it. I will provide exact error in a second when I switch between systems to generate it and add it in another message [4] One more thing perhaps you can help to identify, iMac has *HD Audio *compatible sound card. There was some software written by some Polish dude in the past that was extending Judas Player with HD Audio capacity I found. but when I ran it it effectively discovered HD Audio over PCI but any actual playback and other elements of true driver implementation are not there. Do you know anything about working HD Audio software for DOS? - Best, hollowone On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 11:28 AM TK Chia wrote: > Hello Hollowone PL, > > > With this I have few starter question as a user: > > - DOS16/m is a 16bit protected mode extender. Does it mean that FreeDOS > > runs in 16bit protected mode from the command line or perhaps some driver > > is interfering or rather the iMac I use has hardware that may cause some > > obvious incompatibilities. > > Can you give us more details about the issue(s) you encountered? For > example, which particular tools were you trying to use? What were the > error messages? Was FreeDOS running in "really" Real Mode, or in > Virtual 8086 mode? > > (Meanwhile, my wild guess is that the errors were because the iMac is > not quite compatible with the IBM PC at the lower levels --- especially > the layout of physical memory and I/O ports. But maybe I am wrong.) > > And, I would very much like to know more about how you got FreeDOS > working on a UEFI machine. I have lately been trying to find > information on this. :-) > > Hello Random Liegh, hello Jose Senna, > > >> I'm not sure what DOS16/m is -it sounds like a DPMI server? If so, then > it provides 32-bit addressing >to dos programs. > > AFA I remember, DOS/16M is a DOS extender to allow use of DOS in > protected mode. > > It predates DPMI specification and is geared towards the 16-bit > protected mode > > available in the '286. > > I recall there was the DOS/16M DOS extender --- for the 286's 16-bit > protected mode --- and also DOS/4G --- for the 386's 32-bit protected > mode --- by Rational Software. > > (16M would refer to the 24-bit physical address space supported by the > 286.) > > For some reason, Open Watcom still has some vestigial support for > producing DOS/16M executables, and the OW source code provides some > information on the format of these things. > > Thank you! > > -- > https://github.com/tkchia > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] DOS/16M (was: FreeDOS 1.2 installed on iMac (2011) - success but there are issues)
After quick reboot my steps to repro the problem are as following: -> FreeDOS boots up, I enter NDN, browse to OpenWatcom 1.9 BINW folder and type 'wmake' [Result] App shows all the info it should for no targets specified, I assume on exit it just crashes and hangs the whole system with a message: DOS/16M error: [26] 8042 timeout DOS/16M error: [26] 8042 timeout DOS/16M error: [26] 8042 timeout DOS/16M error: [26] 8042 timeout DOS/16M error: [26] 8042 timeout ... multiple lines with the same thing. Google search not helpful on the line that pops up. Now I wonder if this is part of - the OS - or the app (which is compiled against DOS4GW, 32bit protected mode extension, - or perhaps that refind and legacy bios or some hardware conflict is causing it or obviously combination of all.. but how to troubleshoot it more to identify the root cause? /h1 On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:53 PM Hollowone PL wrote: > Thanks for your replies, to address your comments in one message: > > *[1] How did I install FreeDOS on iMac* > That was relatively easy once I installed this boot manager: > https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/ > With it I can install Linux, Windows and FreeDOS from a bootable CD or USB > quite easily and aside of FreeDOS, no Bootcamp is required to start the > process. > Happy to provide more step by step instructions if they are really > required. > > *[2] 64bit stub. *Yes I'm aware of the software and the code. The sample > code actually ran quite well > > *[3] As for the errors with DOS16/M exceptions and other errors I'm > experiencing.* > Actually that has nothing yet to do with 64bit tests I wanted to do. Once > I installed FreeDOS I have migrated there a lot of test software to > experiment with. > Starting from Norton Commander 5.0 and the latest build of Necromancer's > DOS Navigator. Tried to launch various demoscene demos of the late 90ties, > even tried Doom. > Then I tried Open Watcom 1.9 from FreeDOS packages to start compiling some > code found to support my experiment. > > What I found is that unzip provided with the FreeDOS is generating the > error. Various DOS4GW based 32bit demoscene demos are causing it and also > Open Watcom compiler and wmake is crashing my system with these exceptions > as well. Funny Watcom 10.6 works just fine. > > Additional interesting symptom I see is that when I copy files or unzip > files that have lots of files (or perhaps larger one, I'm not sure yet), it > just freezes the system endlessly. I just reboot, I have no patience to > check if this is some 15 minutes (the longest streak) cache issue or it > just crashed with no system or app level handler for it. > > I will provide exact error in a second when I switch between systems to > generate it and add it in another message > > [4] One more thing perhaps you can help to identify, iMac has *HD Audio > *compatible > sound card. There was some software written by some Polish dude in the past > that was extending Judas Player with HD Audio capacity I found. but when I > ran it it effectively discovered HD Audio over PCI but any actual playback > and other elements of true driver implementation are not there. Do you know > anything about working HD Audio software for DOS? > > - > Best, > hollowone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 11:28 AM TK Chia wrote: > >> Hello Hollowone PL, >> >> > With this I have few starter question as a user: >> > - DOS16/m is a 16bit protected mode extender. Does it mean that FreeDOS >> > runs in 16bit protected mode from the command line or perhaps some >> driver >> > is interfering or rather the iMac I use has hardware that may cause some >> > obvious incompatibilities. >> >> Can you give us more details about the issue(s) you encountered? For >> example, which particular tools were you trying to use? What were the >> error messages? Was FreeDOS running in "really" Real Mode, or in >> Virtual 8086 mode? >> >> (Meanwhile, my wild guess is that the errors were because the iMac is >> not quite compatible with the IBM PC at the lower levels --- especially >> the layout of physical memory and I/O ports. But maybe I am wrong.) >> >> And, I would very much like to know more about how you got FreeDOS >> working on a UEFI machine. I have lately been trying to find >> information on this. :-) >> >> Hello Random Liegh, hello Jose Senna, >> >> >> I'm not sure what DOS16/m is -it sounds like a DPMI server? If so, >> then it provides 32-bit addressing >to dos programs. >> > AFA I remember, DOS/16M is a DOS ex
[Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.2 installed on iMac (2011) - success but there are issues
Hello everybody, I just joined this newsletter and I hope the community, I had a few tries with FreeDOS but mostly in the VM and mostly for the use cases that DOSBOX handles much better. None of these are related to my current deployment, which was hacking the UEFI boot manager that comes with Intel Mac on one of my old iMacs and installing both Windows (7) partition and FreeDOS to boot natively, no VM, just on the bare metal computer inside the aluminum box. It works, I can boot into it. I can run lots of software and I rather installed it to try something new than to emulate SB and play old games. My research will be mostly development and to test how I can switch from FreeDOS to long mode (64bit protected mode) but I cannot even use dev tools provided in packages as they often return DOS16/m exceptions and hang the computer out. With this I have few starter question as a user: - DOS16/m is a 16bit protected mode extender. Does it mean that FreeDOS runs in 16bit protected mode from the command line or perhaps some driver is interfering or rather the iMac I use has hardware that may cause some obvious incompatibilities. I'm happy to dedicate some time for further testing and even debugging but I need some hints how to start. Will somebody here be available to assist me a bit with starter points? ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
