Re: [Freedos-user] New to DOS - 486
On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 04:28:45PM +0200, Eric Auer wrote: > Of course there might be a few games which do use > acceleration features of the card, but for my first > PCI card, it was only the game which came bundled > with it :-) It actually depends on requirements; to me for most cases that (long gone) ISA Tseng would be "fast enough" - while I agree most probably I could have faster graphics using cheap Riva 128 on PCI/AGP (if I had such kind of slots in that 386 machine). Still for most "use cases" of DOS ISA will do. When having high requirements regarding efficiency of graphics system one has to use modern Windows-based system fitted with expensive NVidia accelerator, for instance. Which DOS system can beat it? When using DOS, I simply don't insist on having that many texels per second so much, you know. ;) Even more: it became kind of art to squeeze out of that old gear the things that seemed impossible "back in the day": https://trixter.oldskool.org/2014/06/20/8088-domination-post-mortem-conclusion/ -- regards, Zbigniew ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] New to DOS - 486
Hi! > Of course PCI bus is much faster, still even 16-bit ISA cards, if one uses > good quality graphics adaptor, is "fast enough" for DOS applications. Not really. DOS does not normally use the acceleration of "good quality". For example I once tried fractals on a 75 MHz computer and found out that using an ISA graphics card that I had around made the fractals much slower than what the, not very fast either, CPU would have managed ;-) Doom on a 386 or slow 486 with good 16 bit ISA graphics would have equaly fast VGA and CPU, but if your CPU is a good 486 or even Pentium style, the ISA VGA would be the bottleneck. Of course there might be a few games which do use acceleration features of the card, but for my first PCI card, it was only the game which came bundled with it :-) Regards, Eric ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] New to DOS - 486
On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 10:11:33AM +0200, Eric Auer wrote: > Is that with EMM386 NOEMS option? I expect EMS 3.2 to > be rarely necessary and with NOEMS you can still use > EMS 4.0 which people often forget. With 64k extra UMB. I didn't write down the particular results and conditions - just noted the general rule: using more modern motherboards one gets 2-3 times less UMB (in the same conditions). > I would really recommend a PCI or PCIe graphics card > for DOS, at least AGP. Very few DOS applications know > how to use acceleration and ISA is REALLY slow in data > transfer. So the faster transfer of PCI etc. really > helps most DOS games. Also, VESA VBE BIOS is nice :-) Of course PCI bus is much faster, still even 16-bit ISA cards, if one uses good quality graphics adaptor, is "fast enough" for DOS applications. Recall that "landmark" in 3D gaming - "Ultima Underworld"? I remember that "back in the day" I was playing it on my 386DX40 fitted with that mentioned Tseng ET4000, and that graphics was smooth. "Wing Commander" on the same gear was unplayable, because it was... much too fast. In general if you mean these modern 3D games that indeed do require very fast graphics system, it is rather realm of Windows, not DOS. But for all these "Duke Nuke'm", "Doom", "Wolfenstein" etc. PCI-less machine will do. Of course combined ISA/PCI board won't hurt, since PCI/AGP graphics adaptors are not just faster, but (first of all) easier to get and much cheaper than ISA cards. > PS: Very interesting that your floppy controller from > the other thread DOES support two drives in Linux, but > not in DOS, as a possible BIOS issue. Yes, I filed a "bugreport" to ASRock a few days ago, but no response so far -- regards, Zbigniew ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] New to DOS - 486
Hi! > - the newer the mobo, the more likely it can use some part of "conventional > memory" (first 640 KB) for its own purposes, like my ASRock mentioned in > that other thread For example for SATA controllers or USB. > - the newer the motherboard, the more likely it'll offer less and less UMB, > and I mean _really less_; my old VLB Soyo (SiS) mobo reports over 138 KB > of UMB, while motherboard featuring Athlon64 offers only about 30 KB UMB Is that with EMM386 NOEMS option? I expect EMS 3.2 to be rarely necessary and with NOEMS you can still use EMS 4.0 which people often forget. With 64k extra UMB. I would really recommend a PCI or PCIe graphics card for DOS, at least AGP. Very few DOS applications know how to use acceleration and ISA is REALLY slow in data transfer. So the faster transfer of PCI etc. really helps most DOS games. Also, VESA VBE BIOS is nice :-) Regards, Eric PS: Very interesting that your floppy controller from the other thread DOES support two drives in Linux, but not in DOS, as a possible BIOS issue. >> [..] >> PS: Since I no longer use a mainboard which remembers ISA, >> maybe *somebody else* would like to play with my collection >> of special PCI soundcards which claim to support DOS games? > > Have a look at the thread "Using Yamaha the YMF744 under DOS without > legacy/ISA addressing": > > https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=61256 > > The thing looks cumbersome and somewhat complicated, but still (in many > cases, even if not always) feasible ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] New to DOS - 486
On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 12:45:46PM +0200, Eric Auer wrote: > Actually you can even find relatively modern quad core > computers with IDE :-) The problem is that when you want > DOS compatible sound hardware, you want something with > ISA slots and those went out of fashion 20 years ago. > > Also, while it is easy to use DOS on computers with SATA > (the BIOS will take care of disk I/O and there are drivers > for high-speed SATA I/O for DOS as well) it is very hard > to get non-ISA sound with games on DOS, unless PC Speaker > sound is okay for you and available on your hardware. I tested during last few days a few motherboards I had access to - and there's another possible issue: - the newer the mobo, the more likely it can use some part of "conventional memory" (first 640 KB) for its own purposes, like my ASRock mentioned in that other thread - the newer the motherboard, the more likely it'll offer less and less UMB, and I mean _really less_; my old VLB Soyo (SiS) mobo reports over 138 KB of UMB, while motherboard featuring Athlon64 offers only about 30 KB UMB So the best choice is old motherboard that still has at least one ISA slot present. > [..] > Regarding graphics, you can expect decent VGA compatibility > and even nice VESA BIOS until not so many years ago, but > there will often be mostly 4:3 resolutions, not 16:9 ones. > > But at least no worries about PCIe, AGP or PCI etc. bus :-) > I think RayeR put some tools online to speed up graphics RAM > access settings on PCI and PCIe in DOS. Try to avoid ISA VGA > cards, those are just too slow even for DOS gaming. If one uses 16-bit accelerated ISA cards (like TSENG ET4000) it doesn't have to be that bad. But they are difficult to find nowadays. > [..] > PS: Since I no longer use a mainboard which remembers ISA, > maybe *somebody else* would like to play with my collection > of special PCI soundcards which claim to support DOS games? Have a look at the thread "Using Yamaha the YMF744 under DOS without legacy/ISA addressing": https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=61256 The thing looks cumbersome and somewhat complicated, but still (in many cases, even if not always) feasible -- regards, Zbigniew ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] New to DOS - 486
That’s awesome everyone, thanks for the insight. It sounds a lot more involved
than I first expected. I’m going to read up on what you guys are talking about
and go from there!
> On Sep 15, 2020, at 7:05 AM, ZB wrote:
>
> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 12:45:46PM +0200, Eric Auer wrote:
>
>> Actually you can even find relatively modern quad core
>> computers with IDE :-) The problem is that when you want
>> DOS compatible sound hardware, you want something with
>> ISA slots and those went out of fashion 20 years ago.
>
> Yes, that's the best choice - but if not available, then more recent mobo
> with chipset featuring DDMA ("Distributed DMA") also won't be that bad.
>
>> There are a few PCI soundcards with limited DOS support:
>> Some come with drivers which simulate a SoundBlaster, but
>> those do not work with protected mode games, while others
>> use hardware tricks which only work on mainboard chipsets
>> which still have a bit of ISA style even while the boards
>> have no have actual ISA slots.
>
> That "bit of ISA style" is called DDMA.
>
> Probably the best choice among a few PCI-soundcards working under DOS will
> be Yamaha YMF-724/744.
>
> More about this:
> https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=48553
> https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46=48133#p497926
> --
> regards,
> Zbigniew
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] New to DOS - 486
On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 12:45:46PM +0200, Eric Auer wrote:
> Actually you can even find relatively modern quad core
> computers with IDE :-) The problem is that when you want
> DOS compatible sound hardware, you want something with
> ISA slots and those went out of fashion 20 years ago.
Yes, that's the best choice - but if not available, then more recent mobo
with chipset featuring DDMA ("Distributed DMA") also won't be that bad.
> There are a few PCI soundcards with limited DOS support:
> Some come with drivers which simulate a SoundBlaster, but
> those do not work with protected mode games, while others
> use hardware tricks which only work on mainboard chipsets
> which still have a bit of ISA style even while the boards
> have no have actual ISA slots.
That "bit of ISA style" is called DDMA.
Probably the best choice among a few PCI-soundcards working under DOS will
be Yamaha YMF-724/744.
More about this:
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=48553
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46=48133#p497926
--
regards,
Zbigniew
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Re: [Freedos-user] New to DOS - 486
Hi! >> I´ve seen video and I did play a fair number of DOS compatible >> games in my earlier years especially on Windows 95 and 98. I´m >> casually looking for an old 486 to tinker with too... ... > The Vortex86DX hardware natively still has IDE, not SATA. Actually you can even find relatively modern quad core computers with IDE :-) The problem is that when you want DOS compatible sound hardware, you want something with ISA slots and those went out of fashion 20 years ago. Also, while it is easy to use DOS on computers with SATA (the BIOS will take care of disk I/O and there are drivers for high-speed SATA I/O for DOS as well) it is very hard to get non-ISA sound with games on DOS, unless PC Speaker sound is okay for you and available on your hardware. There are a few PCI soundcards with limited DOS support: Some come with drivers which simulate a SoundBlaster, but those do not work with protected mode games, while others use hardware tricks which only work on mainboard chipsets which still have a bit of ISA style even while the boards have no have actual ISA slots. I expect you to be not interested in solutions where all sound hardware is virtual (dosemu2, dosbox, DOS friendly virtual PC variants with ISA soundblaster simulations). Regarding graphics, you can expect decent VGA compatibility and even nice VESA BIOS until not so many years ago, but there will often be mostly 4:3 resolutions, not 16:9 ones. But at least no worries about PCIe, AGP or PCI etc. bus :-) I think RayeR put some tools online to speed up graphics RAM access settings on PCI and PCIe in DOS. Try to avoid ISA VGA cards, those are just too slow even for DOS gaming. Cheers, Eric PS: Since I no longer use a mainboard which remembers ISA, maybe *somebody else* would like to play with my collection of special PCI soundcards which claim to support DOS games? ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] New to DOS - 486
On 9/15/2020 12:11 AM, Frantisek Rysanek wrote: If you want 486-class hardware with enough RAM, un-486ish CPU horsepower and pretty good legacy compatibility, Any 486 will have more than enough RAM and "CPU horsepower" to run (Free)DOS... Your only problem in that case is too much CPU horsepower, resulting in the "error 200" in some software (not necessarily Borland-based). Not a problem at all, as several fixes for that issue exist as long as the issue itself... Ralf -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] New to DOS - 486
On 13 Sep 2020 at 16:26, Dan Scott wrote: > > I´ve seen video and I did play a fair number of DOS compatible > games in my earlier years especially on Windows 95 and 98. I´m > casually looking for an old 486 to tinker with too, so hopefully > I´ll stumble upon something someone is looking to get rid of or a > cheap one at Goodwill. > Back in the day, cheap 486 clone machines had weird quirks in silicon and in the BIOS, and were rather starved of RAM. Any hardware that old has to be suspected of having age-related glitches. Cold joints, dusty and oxidated contacts etc. You'll have a problem finding floppy drives and IDE HDDs. If you want 486-class hardware with enough RAM, un-486ish CPU horsepower and pretty good legacy compatibility, try looking for something with a Vortex86DX. Mind the DX, it's a particular Vortex SoC model. Anything from ICOP will do (with XGI graphics, 32MB of dedicated VRAM). Only there's no legacy audio (selected models have USB audio = no use in DOS on bare metal). If you manage to get your hands on a soundblaster card (some ISA model strongly preferred), if could work with the VDX-6324 from ICOP - but you will need a minimal PICMG 1.0 ISA backplane. The Vortex has about 800 MHz native clock rate, but can be underclocked down to 100 MHz. And, the "TurboPascal crt bug" (division by 0 exception, or error 200) doesn't occur until about 400 MHz. The Vortex86DX hardware natively still has IDE, not SATA. It is possible to buy a stand-alone IDE/SATA bridge board, allowing you to attach a SATA disk drive to an IDE HBA. And, some of the Vortex boards have a CompatFlash slot, or you can buy a CF/IDE converter board stand-alone. CF cards can still be purchased, and they have a native IDE mode, making them behave like an IDE HDD. Or you can just run your legacy DOS software in a DosBox - including VGA screen scaling and SoundBlaster emulation. Or in some hypervisor of your choice. Your only problem in that case is too much CPU horsepower, resulting in the "error 200" in some software (not necessarily Borland-based). Frank ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
