Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

[Rich Murray]

Within "awareness" forever, "each" of "us" has to be a unique evolving
facet of all of single creative hyperinfinity...


"As a matter of course, every soul citizen of Earth has a priority to
quickly find and positively share evidence for healthy and safe food,
drink, environment, and society."

within the fellowship of service,

Rich Murray,
MA Boston University Graduate School 1967 psychology,
BS MIT 1964 history and physics,
1039 Emory Street, Imperial Beach, CA 91932
rmfor...@gmail.com
505-819-7388 <(505)%20819-7388> cell
619-623-3468 <(619)%20623-3468> home
http://rmforall.blogspot.com
https://www.facebook.com/rmforall
https://www.facebook.com/rmforallmethanol
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/rich-murray/30/835/652
https://about.me/richmurray
rich.murray11 free Skype audio, video chat


"Time, Space, and Knowledge: A New Vision of Reality" 1977 co-created by
Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, born 1934,  and Steven Tainer, born 1947 -- 307
pages, concise and profound, highly original sharing of DzogChen -- other
TSK teachers: Rich Murray 2014.11.28
http://rmforall.blogspot.com/2014/11/time-space-and-knowledg
e-new-vision-of.html

http://www.amazon.com/Time-Space-Knowledge-Reality-Psycholog
y/dp/0913546089#customerReviews

9 eloquent brilliant reviews, including an account of how "Time, Space, and
Knowledge: A New Vision of Reality" was co-created by Tarthang Tulku,
Rinpoche, born 1934, and a brilliant student, Steven Tainer, born 1947, at
Nyingma Institute in Berkeley, via many years of dialogue, resulting in
over 3,000 pages of transcripts, which were condensed into a 307 page text
by December 1977 -- essentially a practical pure modern innovation from
DzogChen, without any Buddhist trappings language and rituals.

[ http://www.odiyan.org/founder.html

http://www.odiyan.org/home.html  huge temple complex

http://www.janhenderson.com/self/how-i-connected-with-buddhism/

http://www.berkeleyside.com/2012/06/07/retreat-centers-expan
sion-plans-provoke-concern/

12 organizations have $ 60 million assets --

"Tarthang Tulku now lives in permanent retreat at the 1,000-acre Odiyan
Retreat Center near Gualala, about 12 miles from the Ratna Ling Retreat
Center.
He no longer communicates directly with the public."


[ aside, also, search "Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche" dzogchen

born 1938, now 76, still teaching at many world centers

http://tsegyalgar.org/localcenters/tsegyalgarwest/tsegyalgarwesteven/

3,000 acre Tsegyalgar West retreat center, Los Naranjos Baja Sur, in middle
of south Baja California, about 50 miles north of the south tip -- I found
it with Google Earth a few years ago ]


http://nyingmainstitute.com/page/time-space-knowledge-tsk

PROGRAMS IN TIME, SPACE, AND KNOWLEDGE (TSK)

The Time, Space, and Knowledge vision offers a path to the growth of
knowledge, using practices specifically tailored to meet the needs of
modern society.
The Institute has a long and close association with this liberating vision.
Tarthang Tulku introduced his theory of Time, Space, and Knowledge in
seminars held at the Institute in 1976–77, and more intensively, in a
four-week program offered in the summer of 1977.
Within two months after the book, Time, Space, and Knowledge: A New Vision
of Reality,  was launched at an event at the Nyingma Institute in December,
1977, Tarthang Tulku had structured a TSK training program.

The Institute continued to present TSK seminars, workshops, and retreats
throughout the 1980s.
After Love of Knowledge was published in 1987, the Institute offered two
intensive ten-month programs between 1988 and 1990 devoted to its study.
After the third TSK book, Knowledge of Time and Space, was published in
1990, the Institute offered another intensive that drew on all three of the
TSK books.

>From 1991 to 1995, the Institute offered Time, Space, and Knowledge as
occasional weekend programs.
With the appearance of several new books in 1996, TSK gathered momentum and
workshops, classes, and retreats in TSK continue to be taught on a regular
basis.
At present, a regular series of eight classes is offered, providing a solid
introduction to the TSK vision and its practices.

 [  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlGL0RsQvaw

13:13 video Alan Watts in black and white, Time: Part 1/2 ]


http://www.creativeinquiry.org/develop/the-tsk-vision/tsk-overview/

Jack Petrankar, Center for Creative Inquiry, started 2000


View a video introduction to the Time-Space-Knowledge vision


In Dynamics of
Time and Space (1994), Tarthang Tulku helps clarify the
Time-Space-Knowledge vision by laying out what it is not; that is, how it
differs from other approaches to knowledge and being:

Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

[Nick Thompson]

Hi, Russ, 

 

Long time!  You do know that I am a completely different man from the shallow, 
narrow-minded, orthodox behaviorist you used to argue with.  I have had heart 
surgery.  

 

In what you quote below, I am channeling Peirce.  I guess I wouldn’t be 
channeling him if I weren’t besotted with his views, but it’s also true that I 
couldn’t represent these views as clearly if they were precisely my own.  

 

You may draw whatever conclusions you may from the fact that over time we are 
drawn to common conclusions on many matters.  One such conclusion might be that 
there is a world out there that is banging us into shape.  But that is mere 
metaphysics;  all we can speak to is consistencies in our experience.  

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

  
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 11:38 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

Nick wrote, "the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense"

 

What does that say about areas of the universe or periods of the universe that 
have no experiencing beings?  

 

Also, we synchronize our experiences so that we can communicate. (And we manage 
to do that reasonably well most of the time.) Is there any reason that's even 
possible if there is no real world outside each person's individual experience? 
(Or does this misrepresent what you have in mind?)

 

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 8:26 PM Nick Thompson  > wrote:

Marcus, 

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum 
mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside experience 
is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held that all 
“objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the community of 
inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very long run.  So 
it’s all experience, all the way down, except that “reality” is a sort of 
future experience.  No dualism allowed. 

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

  
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com 
 ] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume 
that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, 
observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of 
quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some 
preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent 
observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, 
then things make more sense.

Marcus

  _  

From: Friam  > on 
behalf of Frank Wimberly  >
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality" 

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of 
interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918  


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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-- 

Russ Abbott

Professor, Computer Science

California State University, Los Angeles


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Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

[Russ Abbott]

Nick wrote, "the idea of a real world outside experience is nonsense"

What does that say about areas of the universe or periods of the universe
that have no experiencing beings?

Also, we synchronize our experiences so that we can communicate. (And we
manage to do that reasonably well most of the time.) Is there any reason
that's even possible if there is no real world outside each person's
individual experience? (Or does this misrepresent what you have in mind?)

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 8:26 PM Nick Thompson 
wrote:

> Marcus,
>
>
>
> To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum
> mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside
> experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held
> that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the
> community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the
> very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that
> “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Marcus
> Daniels
> *Sent:* Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"
>
>
>
> "Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we
> assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective,
> observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central
> lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out
> there in some preexisting space."
>
> For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent
> observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that
> up, then things make more sense.
>
> Marcus
> --
>
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Frank Wimberly <
> wimber...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"
>
>
>
> This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area
> of interest to Nick.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb
>
> Frank Wimberly
> Phone (505) 670-9918
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

-- 
Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

[Nick Thompson]

Marcus, 

 

To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum
mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside
experience is nonsense but I don't see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held
that all "objective" observation consist of guesses at what we all, the
community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the very
long run.  So it's all experience, all the way down, except that "reality"
is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed. 

 

Nick   

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

 

"Experiment after experiment has shown-defying common sense-that if we
assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective,
observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson
of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there
in some preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent
observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that
up, then things make more sense.

Marcus

  _  

From: Friam  >
on behalf of Frank Wimberly  >
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality" 

 

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of
interest to Nick.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/
479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

[Marcus Daniels]

"Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we assume 
that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective, 
observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central lesson of 
quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out there in some 
preexisting space."

For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are independent 
observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they can give that up, 
then things make more sense.

Marcus


From: Friam  on behalf of Frank Wimberly 

Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of 
interest to Nick.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[FRIAM] Maybe a new hardware approach to deal with AI developments

[Alfredo Covaleda Vélez]

Probably It is the most interesting tech article that I have read in weeks.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/16/technology/chips-off-the-old-block-computers-are-taking-design-cues-from-human-brains.html?emc=edit_th_20170917=todaysheadlines=58593627=

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Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

[Frank Wimberly]

Framework = Friam.  Is autocorrect onto something?

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Sep 18, 2017 7:56 PM, "Frank Wimberly"  wrote:

> This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area
> of interest to Nick.
>
> https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-
> illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb
>
> Frank Wimberly
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

[Frank Wimberly]

This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area of
interest to Nick.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] "ecological"

[gⅼеɳ ☣]

On 09/18/2017 10:31 AM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:
> She's Gregory Bateson's daughter--and that should give you a clue as to the 
> depth and breadth of her investigation into systems theory.

Thanks.  It does not really give me a clue (my own inadequacies, of course).  
I'm wondering if there's a mystical homunculus underlying people's use of the 
word "ecological".  I plan to attend this:

Infusing Indigenous Wisdom
http://www.pulltogethernow.org/indexindex.php?option=com_content=article=7

(I may not make it because there are 2 ... count them TWO! ... Oktoberfests 
competing for my attention this weekend ... Hm, drink malty beer and listen to 
Polka or drink coffee and listen to Native Americans describe how they think 
our modern mechanical thinking is inadequate?)

But the gists of all 3 things seem to be of the same theme ... a theme I care 
about.  Systems theory (and complex systems, and a slew of proximal 
constellations of woo) smacks of something like vitalism or perhaps 
panpsychism.  My own homunculi brawl with each other on at least a weekly 
basis, mainly The Mechanist vs. The Mystic, but other humunculi jump into the 
fray on a regular basis.  I'm particularly fond of Spinoza's excursions around 
modality.

Speaking of which, does anyone have access to a copy of this article they'd be 
willing to share:

Monists & Nazis: a question of scientific responsibility
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/wol1/doi/10.2307/3560820/abstract

I figure since we have some self-expressed monists, here, I might get lucky.


> 
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 11:11 AM, gⅼеɳ ☣  > wrote:
> 
> Classifying the evolutionary and ecological features of neoplasms
> 
> http://www.nature.com/nrc/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nrc.2017.69.html?WT.mc_id=TWT_NatureRevCancer=true
> 
> Small Arcs of Larger Circles: Framing through other patterns​​
> http://www.triarchypress.net/small-arcs.html
> 
> I have nothing interesting to say about these two things.  Maybe y'all do?


-- 
☣ gⅼеɳ


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Re: [FRIAM] "ecological"

[Merle Lefkoff]

Glen, I know Nora Bateson, author of "Small Arcs of Larger Circles."  She
and I were both elected as Fellows of the Lindisfarne Association.  She's
Gregory Bateson's daughter--and that should give you a clue as to the depth
and breadth of her investigation into systems theory.  She also made a
wonderful documentary film about her father's work, "An Ecology of Mind",
worth a look if you can find it.

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 11:11 AM, gⅼеɳ ☣  wrote:

> Classifying the evolutionary and ecological features of neoplasms
> http://www.nature.com/nrc/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/
> nrc.2017.69.html?WT.mc_id=TWT_NatureRevCancer=true
>
> Small Arcs of Larger Circles: Framing through other patterns​​
> http://www.triarchypress.net/small-arcs.html
>
> I have nothing interesting to say about these two things.  Maybe y'all do?
>
> --
> ☣ gⅼеɳ
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove




-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

merlelefk...@gmail.com 
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

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[FRIAM] "ecological"

[gⅼеɳ ☣]

Classifying the evolutionary and ecological features of neoplasms
http://www.nature.com/nrc/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nrc.2017.69.html?WT.mc_id=TWT_NatureRevCancer=true

Small Arcs of Larger Circles: Framing through other patterns​​
http://www.triarchypress.net/small-arcs.html

I have nothing interesting to say about these two things.  Maybe y'all do?

-- 
☣ gⅼеɳ


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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