Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Eric Charles]

"Perhaps I should have said, early on, “Look, I’m sorry, I keep seeing you
as Uncle Remus.  I am sure, as I get to know you better, I will get over
it.  Please be patient with me, and please call me out whenever you feel
confined by it. ”



A Liberalism that does not free me is not worth the name."


It will probably not surprise you to know that I find this narration
baffling. You definitely *could* say that to him, at any time. There is
nothing "liberal" about feeling trapped to not discuss something like that.
If you felt trapped for a bit, not saying anything seems wise. However, at
some point, you just say it, or give up on the idea that you actually have
a problem with it. Personally, I'd stay away from an Uncle Remus reference,
but the whole point here is that the two of you are old, so it might make
sense in your world. At any rate, the worst case result will be that you
have been honest with him, and he never spoke to you again. Which is, IMHO,
a better outcome than your not being honest with him, and he never spoke to
you again, which seems to be where you are now. Sometimes, certainly not
always, but sometimes, when I make moves like that in a conversation, you
later express admiration and/or envy.

I think this relates to the larger question of what some people see in
Trump. They see him as constantly pointing out what they (his fans) see as
the "elephant in the room." Sure, he says a boat load of other things, and
lots of those things are not true, but those aren't the important things.
"Why do we want all these people from shithole countries coming here?" is a
great example of a perceived elephant. "There are good people on both
sides" is another, as is the recent dust-up about "anti-racist" workshops.
When Trump gets hammered for saying such things, they take away 1) See I
was right not to risk saying that myself, because my supposedly friendly,
supposedly open-minded neighbors would have attacked me just for saying it,
and maybe even tried to get me fired, because apparently they think my kids
should go hungry if I think something they don't like. 2) Thank God *someone
*had the guts to ask the question! 3) What kind of crazy country do these
libs want to turn us into, with all these elephants wandering all around
the room, and it's not even enough to not say anything, because now you
gotta be worried about getting fired if they think you might even have
looked at one? 4) If I could be me, but also have the guts to talk about
the elephants, I would be A Better Person. He talks about the elephants, so
he is A Better Person.

Did that comparison hold together? It felt like it did.




P.S. Add on top of that that a huge chunk of the "lies" are puffery, which
amounts to telling his supporters that it is ok to feel good about
themselves and good about their country. This started in earnest with the
claims about inauguration attendance and continues, for example, with any
suggestion that we might be doing anything half-decent with our Covid
response. When Trump gets hammered for saying such things, they take away
1) I guess the libs really do want us to feel bad about our country. 2)
They really think it would be horrible if I felt good about myself for even
a minute. 3) They are ok judging me when they know nothing about me.





On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 11:19 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> My solution is to elect Biden and to use Trump as an example of the kind
> of person to never elect again.  But that's just me.
>
> Sounds like a partial lobotomy.   I'm game for this... but not sure it is
> more than "a good start", which of course is, in fact, a good start.
>
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 8:15 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>>
>> > Yes, you could say that government in general and especially lawmakers
>> > are our superego.  The best common word synonym for superego is
>> > conscience.  Since a lot of people have lacunae of their own superego
>> > we need laws and law enforcers.
>>
>> So right now we are in the midst of a collective id/ego/superego that is
>> experiencing a dissociative episode, both governmental and social?
>>
>> to the extent the analogy holds, what is an exit/recovery strategy?
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Steve Smith]

> My solution is to elect Biden and to use Trump as an example of the
> kind of person to never elect again.  But that's just me.

Sounds like a partial lobotomy.   I'm game for this... but not sure it
is more than "a good start", which of course is, in fact, a good start.


>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 8:15 PM Steve Smith  > wrote:
>
>
> > Yes, you could say that government in general and especially
> lawmakers
> > are our superego.  The best common word synonym for superego is
> > conscience.  Since a lot of people have lacunae of their own
> superego
> > we need laws and law enforcers.
>
> So right now we are in the midst of a collective id/ego/superego
> that is
> experiencing a dissociative episode, both governmental and social?
>
> to the extent the analogy holds, what is an exit/recovery strategy?
>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] The last bookstore

[Merle Lefkoff]

I am making a prediction about the unknowable, unprestateable future.
Jochen will be able to visit our wonderful bookstores before the end of
2021.  (It's all about testing!)

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 8:36 AM Prof David West  wrote:

> the block is just the main store - the computer/science/tech is in another
> building across the street.
>
> lots of small local bookstores. LA harder to find, but San Francisco
> plentiful.
>
> They will still be there in 2025 when you feel safe to visit the US.
>
> davew
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, at 8:24 AM, ⛧ glen wrote:
> > They might. But I'm spending a good portion of my income at the local
> > ones. If you're visiting book stores, you must visit this one. A whole
> > city block, multiple floors:
> > https://www.powells.com/
> >
> > And stop using Amazon. 8^D
> >
> >
> > On September 5, 2020 6:53:38 AM PDT, Jochen Fromm 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >Do you think bookstores may die out? They have become rare here in
> > >Europe. In L.A. there is a nice used bookstore named "The Last
> > >Bookstore"http://lastbookstorela.comWhen Biden has won and Covid is
> > >gone next year I would like to visit California, including L.A. and San
> > >Francisco, before the last bookstore is gone.-J.
> >
> > --
> > glen ⛧
> >
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> >
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>


-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
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Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Frank Wimberly]

My solution is to elect Biden and to use Trump as an example of the kind of
person to never elect again.  But that's just me.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 8:15 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> > Yes, you could say that government in general and especially lawmakers
> > are our superego.  The best common word synonym for superego is
> > conscience.  Since a lot of people have lacunae of their own superego
> > we need laws and law enforcers.
>
> So right now we are in the midst of a collective id/ego/superego that is
> experiencing a dissociative episode, both governmental and social?
>
> to the extent the analogy holds, what is an exit/recovery strategy?
>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Steve Smith]

> Yes, you could say that government in general and especially lawmakers
> are our superego.  The best common word synonym for superego is
> conscience.  Since a lot of people have lacunae of their own superego
> we need laws and law enforcers.

So right now we are in the midst of a collective id/ego/superego that is
experiencing a dissociative episode, both governmental and social?

to the extent the analogy holds, what is an exit/recovery strategy?

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Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Frank Wimberly]

Yes, you could say that government in general and especially lawmakers are
our superego.  The best common word synonym for superego is conscience.
Since a lot of people have lacunae of their own superego we need laws and
law enforcers.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 7:48 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Frank -
>
> I see your case for the Constitution-as-superego.   I guess I was thinking
> more in the social-cultural sense than the political.   When we were a
> predominantly religious (e.g. Christian) culture, perhaps it was the
> various "Good Books" and the church leadership(s)...
> Priests/Pastors/Rabbis/Imams and such?
>
> In spite of *many* giving lip service both to Constitution and Good Books
> and 10point Tablets, and Golden Rules, it feels like the true operating
> principles are at least similarly NeoDarwinism (of which I think Stephen
> and Dave have both spoken against) and NeoLIberalism (which many speak
> against, notably Glen here I think)  and .
>
> But these are more like abstractions and institutions rather than
> dynamic-coherence-maintaining processes which is how I apprehend the id,
> ego, superego to be?  While the Constitution is nominally a "living
> document" (with amendments allowed)... the Good Book(s) are generally not
> allowed to be revised (albeit continued revelations seem to be common such
> as via Joseph Smith, David Karesh, a multitude of Yogis, etc.)   I suppose
> that in some sense these artifacts encode/reflect the superego, I'm maybe
> looking for something more "organic".   Any current existing *governing
> body* would seem to be a somewhat more mutable super-ego, and the
> pop-culture "equivalent" might be what?
>
> - Steve
>
>
> p.s.  do a Google search of "superego", Steve.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 7:12 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>> Well, you could say that the Constitution is a kind of superego.  It's
>> interesting that Trump resents the ways in which it constrains him.  He
>> tries to get around it with surprising success thanks to sycophants like
>> Barr et al.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 7:04 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> Frank -
>>>
>>>   And that trait ingratiates with those amongst us who have base
>>> impulses for which we fear we might be shamed.
>>>
>>> And that includes everyone.  But then most of us have superegos that
>>> constrain us.  Trump less so.
>>>
>>> Ah, but HIS is a SuperDuperEgo... just ask him, he'll tell ya!
>>>
>>> I don't know what your stake (or dog in the fight or ... pick a
>>> metaphor) is regarding collective
>>> consciousness/awareness/intelligence/wisdom/action in the abstract but it
>>> seems your background would support having an opinion or more to the point
>>> a thought-through-thought or two on the topic.
>>>
>>> If there are suitable parallels between individual consciousness and
>>> collective versions of it, what would be the superego of a culture, people,
>>> nation-state, etc.?
>>>
>>> - Steve
>>>
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>>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>>>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Steve Smith]

Frank -

I see your case for the Constitution-as-superego.   I guess I was
thinking more in the social-cultural sense than the political.   When we
were a predominantly religious (e.g. Christian) culture, perhaps it was
the various "Good Books" and the church leadership(s)... 
Priests/Pastors/Rabbis/Imams and such?

In spite of *many* giving lip service both to Constitution and Good
Books and 10point Tablets, and Golden Rules, it feels like the true
operating principles are at least similarly NeoDarwinism (of which I
think Stephen and Dave have both spoken against) and NeoLIberalism
(which many speak against, notably Glen here I think)  and .  

But these are more like abstractions and institutions rather than
dynamic-coherence-maintaining processes which is how I apprehend the id,
ego, superego to be?  While the Constitution is nominally a "living
document" (with amendments allowed)... the Good Book(s) are generally
not allowed to be revised (albeit continued revelations seem to be
common such as via Joseph Smith, David Karesh, a multitude of Yogis,
etc.)   I suppose that in some sense these artifacts encode/reflect the
superego, I'm maybe looking for something more "organic".   Any current
existing *governing body* would seem to be a somewhat more mutable
super-ego, and the pop-culture "equivalent" might be what?

- Steve


> p.s.  do a Google search of "superego", Steve.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 7:12 PM Frank Wimberly  > wrote:
>
> Well, you could say that the Constitution is a kind of superego. 
> It's interesting that Trump resents the ways in which it
> constrains him.  He tries to get around it with surprising success
> thanks to sycophants like Barr et al.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 7:04 PM Steve Smith  > wrote:
>
> Frank -
>>   And that trait ingratiates with those amongst us who have
>> base impulses for which we fear we might be shamed.
>>
>> And that includes everyone.  But then most of us have
>> superegos that constrain us.  Trump less so.
>
> Ah, but HIS is a SuperDuperEgo... just ask him, he'll tell ya!
>
> I don't know what your stake (or dog in the fight or ... pick
> a metaphor) is regarding collective
> consciousness/awareness/intelligence/wisdom/action in the
> abstract but it seems your background would support having an
> opinion or more to the point a thought-through-thought or two
> on the topic.
>
> If there are suitable parallels between individual
> consciousness and collective versions of it, what would be the
> superego of a culture, people, nation-state, etc.?
>
> - Steve
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Steve Smith]

> Hi Steve,
>
>  
>
> You can’t have read Watchman “decades” ago because it only came out a
> few years ago.  It puts Atticus in a whole new perspective.  
>
Why does that not surprise me? (that I would have made that mistake)  I
checked with Mary and the answer is she did recommend it for our "book
group" in the last year and it would have only been Mockingbird that I read.

doh!

>  
>
> Nick
>
>  
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 5, 2020 6:07 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening
>
>  
>
> Nick -
>
> I think I read /Watchmen/ decades ago... it is a good addition to my
> reading list with Mary (she has mentioned it recently)... we read
> books together (how quaint).   Right now we are on Victor Klemperer's
> diaries from the Nazi years in Germany as a Jewish man married to an
> Aryan woman, and the slow erosion and decline of their circumstances,
> his rights, and hers by association (in a time/culture where the man
> of the family had primary status, and  yet the Aryan of the family had
> higher status in many ways).   It is heartbreaking and very cautionary
> as we watch the norms of a society get eroded away on one side as a
> subset of ruthless and ambitious characters seduce and intimidate the
> populace into normalizing pretty marginalizing (and ultimately brutal)
> behaviour of one segment of population against the other.  Spoiler
> alert - the time-period is 1934-1944 so you can guess "how it turns out".
>
> Other (re)reads have included Moby Dick, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
> Maintenance, The Woman at Otowi Bridge (Edith Warner), a biography of
> Maria Martinez (potter), the biography of Mabel Dodge-Luhan.   Not
> only do these books read differently the second time around (decades
> later) but in the light of a new (2+ years) partner whose backround
> and perspective is radically different.   Mary is much more attuned to
> the Civil Rights issues than I... she grew up in her own version of
> remote (a tiny college town, Chadron NE near the Pine Ridge Rez) with
> a mother who was a strong civic member and Democrat amongst mostly
> Republican farm/ranch folks... her father was probably a Republican if
> he voted... her brothers all rode to Sturgis, voted for Trump and are
> likely to again, etc.   but/and she loves them, even if she won't
> speak her mind openly on those topics with them.  
>
> My sister who dated her African American friend for a time is now in
> her mid-60's asking her children, my children and even Mary and I for
> "something she can read to understand 'all that'"...  She and her
> husband voted for Trump but probably won't again, and in her defense,
> lived out-of-country in Spain and Chile for most of their adult lives,
> as part of the colonialism of American Mining interests overseas.  A
> previous boyfriend was of a Mexican-American family in the border town
> whose circumstance and status was somewhat higher than our own... 
> most of the merchant and professional class were the grandchildren of
> Mexicans who lived there when it *was* Mexico (pre Gadsden
> Purchase).   My parents had a similar (though more muted) reaction to
> him... that surprised me as well since well over half of our friends
> and classmates  from 1st Grade has Spanish surnames.   They may have
> also questioned her more Anglo-Normative boyfriends along the way,
> maybe they were just overprotective?
>
> Rattling on about my sister and her family, they volunteer with
> Central American refugees in Tucson because they are both fluent in
> Spanish and just in the last year acknowledged that maybe Global
> Warming was real AND anthropogenic and maybe they should try to
> recycle or carpool or something (snarky, sorry)...so there is hope... 
>
> Yes to "context and perspective"...
>
> - Steve
>
> On 9/5/20 3:27 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com
>  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
>  
>
> Your story, like so many of your stories, cuts to the heart.  If
> you haven’t already, I recommend you read /Go Call a Watchmen,
> /the pre-written sequel to /To Kill a Mockingbird, /in which Scout
> discovers that, at least from seen from a Northern perspective, is
> actually a flaming racist.  That perspective thing, as Glen keeps
> reminding me, is so important.  I would love to know what you
> (-all) think of that book.
>
>  
>
> Nick
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* Friam 
> 

Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Steve Smith]

On 9/5/20 6:41 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
>
> Trump’s charm comes from the fact that he tells the truth about
> his basest impulses 
>
>
> I like your theory. Somehow I doubt it would work for everyone. Why
> does it work for Trump? 
>
> Part of it may be that Trump goes one step beyond affirming his basest
> impulses. He assumes them and then glories in what he paints as the
> positive consequences. Cheering on right-wing thugs means that he can
> claim that the implied violence they represent will back him when he
> needs it. Transactionalism means that he is always "winning" and
> always doing things that will make him richer. Sexism means that he
> always has a supply of women at his call. Continually repeating his
> lies means that he always has a crowd of people who believe him.
> Constant bullying and name-calling means that he puts himself in a
> position to judge and demean others and can always portray himself as
> better than everyone else. 
>
> All-in-all he portrays himself as living the life everyone else
> envies. And it works. He (presumably) has quite a bit of money and has
> made himself into the most powerful person in the world. That's quite
> an attraction for lots of people--especially for those who value the
> ends over the means--another of the base impulses from which he has
> reaped significant rewards.

And I have this recurring dream of January 19th (or whatever the
inauguration day) 2021 when his Secret Service detail perp-walks him out
the door to the lawn and hands him over to the Marine1 crew to fly down
to Maralago which has been pre-emptively turned into a 100 acre
gilded-cage holding cell for him while he faces a never ending stream of
indictments ranging from petty P*ssy Grabbing to War Crimes.

Biden has been forming his "transition team" and I'm wanting to believe
he's tapped Carter, Bill Clinton, GW Bush, and Obama to enlist their
Secret Service details (I don't think Biden as former VP has a detail,
right?) to chat up via backchannels and personal relations, the Service
teams in place and make sure they are ready to *force* an orderly
transition of power on the 11th hour if it doesn't happen
organically. I have a HS friend who was SS working on Gore's
detail.  Unfortunately she retired early and moved to Idaho where she
could be more fully in touch with her inner-Trump, maybe exercise her
hoarded stash of (previously legal/permitted?) automatic weapons without
nosy neighbors or invasive critical law-enforcement?   Otherwise I'd ask
her the chances of her "brothers and sisters" stepping up to the threat
of a Trump whose "hell no, I won't go" from the sixties has been bumped
up a couple of levels?

mumble,

 - Steve

> _
> _
> __-- Russ Abbott                                      
> Professor, Computer Science
> California State University, Los Angeles
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 4:51 PM  > wrote:
>
> Again, people.  Could we just forget the whole anecdote?  Please? 
>
>  
>
> I wish we could focus not on the particulars of the anecdote, but
> on that fact that Trump’s charm comes from the fact that he tells
> the truth about his basest impulses, while lying about everything
> else.  And that trait ingratiates with those amongst us who have
> base impulses for which we fear we might be shamed.
>
>  
>
> Speaking of shame!  Whew!
>
>  
>
> Nick
>
>  
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* Friam  > *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 5, 2020 5:41 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening
>
>  
>
> James is the man...  I didn't want to name him speculatively
> on-list.   I don't know the Ohori's owner, only the original
> founder Susan Ohori... I guess she cashed out some time back?  It
> hasn't felt like her touch for some time.   James would have been
> avoiding Larry, not you, even though you might have been vaguely
> implicated in it.  He might even remember you as "Nick" and "from
> New England" and "wild eyebrows"...   the current circumstances
> don't have me "running into him" as likely as in the past, but the
> discussion is in the queue for if ever we do!
>
> Dear Steve, 
>
>  
>
> I would not be surprised if you did, indeed, know  him. 
> Somehow, he worked his way into being something of a water
> commissioner up there, mediating the most difficult issue I
> can imagine… as a stranger?  The whole thing seemed incredible
> to me, but a credit, in any case, to the vibes he gives off. 
>
>  
>
> I won’t 

Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Frank Wimberly]

p.s.  do a Google search of "superego", Steve.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 7:12 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Well, you could say that the Constitution is a kind of superego.  It's
> interesting that Trump resents the ways in which it constrains him.  He
> tries to get around it with surprising success thanks to sycophants like
> Barr et al.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 7:04 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>> Frank -
>>
>>   And that trait ingratiates with those amongst us who have base impulses
>> for which we fear we might be shamed.
>>
>> And that includes everyone.  But then most of us have superegos that
>> constrain us.  Trump less so.
>>
>> Ah, but HIS is a SuperDuperEgo... just ask him, he'll tell ya!
>>
>> I don't know what your stake (or dog in the fight or ... pick a metaphor)
>> is regarding collective consciousness/awareness/intelligence/wisdom/action
>> in the abstract but it seems your background would support having an
>> opinion or more to the point a thought-through-thought or two on the topic.
>>
>> If there are suitable parallels between individual consciousness and
>> collective versions of it, what would be the superego of a culture, people,
>> nation-state, etc.?
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>
>
-  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 

Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Frank Wimberly]

Well, you could say that the Constitution is a kind of superego.  It's
interesting that Trump resents the ways in which it constrains him.  He
tries to get around it with surprising success thanks to sycophants like
Barr et al.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 7:04 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Frank -
>
>   And that trait ingratiates with those amongst us who have base impulses
> for which we fear we might be shamed.
>
> And that includes everyone.  But then most of us have superegos that
> constrain us.  Trump less so.
>
> Ah, but HIS is a SuperDuperEgo... just ask him, he'll tell ya!
>
> I don't know what your stake (or dog in the fight or ... pick a metaphor)
> is regarding collective consciousness/awareness/intelligence/wisdom/action
> in the abstract but it seems your background would support having an
> opinion or more to the point a thought-through-thought or two on the topic.
>
> If there are suitable parallels between individual consciousness and
> collective versions of it, what would be the superego of a culture, people,
> nation-state, etc.?
>
> - Steve
>
> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
-  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 

Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Steve Smith]

Frank -
>   And that trait ingratiates with those amongst us who have base
> impulses for which we fear we might be shamed.
>
> And that includes everyone.  But then most of us have superegos that
> constrain us.  Trump less so.

Ah, but HIS is a SuperDuperEgo... just ask him, he'll tell ya!

I don't know what your stake (or dog in the fight or ... pick a
metaphor) is regarding collective
consciousness/awareness/intelligence/wisdom/action in the abstract but
it seems your background would support having an opinion or more to the
point a thought-through-thought or two on the topic.

If there are suitable parallels between individual consciousness and
collective versions of it, what would be the superego of a culture,
people, nation-state, etc.?

- Steve


-  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 

Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[thompnickson2]

Hi Steve, 

 

You can't have read Watchman "decades" ago because it only came out a few
years ago.  It puts Atticus in a whole new perspective.   

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 6:07 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

 

Nick -

I think I read Watchmen decades ago... it is a good addition to my reading
list with Mary (she has mentioned it recently)... we read books together
(how quaint).   Right now we are on Victor Klemperer's diaries from the Nazi
years in Germany as a Jewish man married to an Aryan woman, and the slow
erosion and decline of their circumstances, his rights, and hers by
association (in a time/culture where the man of the family had primary
status, and  yet the Aryan of the family had higher status in many ways).
It is heartbreaking and very cautionary as we watch the norms of a society
get eroded away on one side as a subset of ruthless and ambitious characters
seduce and intimidate the populace into normalizing pretty marginalizing
(and ultimately brutal) behaviour of one segment of population against the
other.  Spoiler alert - the time-period is 1934-1944 so you can guess "how
it turns out".

Other (re)reads have included Moby Dick, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance, The Woman at Otowi Bridge (Edith Warner), a biography of Maria
Martinez (potter), the biography of Mabel Dodge-Luhan.   Not only do these
books read differently the second time around (decades later) but in the
light of a new (2+ years) partner whose backround and perspective is
radically different.   Mary is much more attuned to the Civil Rights issues
than I... she grew up in her own version of remote (a tiny college town,
Chadron NE near the Pine Ridge Rez) with a mother who was a strong civic
member and Democrat amongst mostly Republican farm/ranch folks... her father
was probably a Republican if he voted... her brothers all rode to Sturgis,
voted for Trump and are likely to again, etc.   but/and she loves them, even
if she won't speak her mind openly on those topics with them.   

My sister who dated her African American friend for a time is now in her
mid-60's asking her children, my children and even Mary and I for "something
she can read to understand 'all that'"...  She and her husband voted for
Trump but probably won't again, and in her defense, lived out-of-country in
Spain and Chile for most of their adult lives, as part of the colonialism of
American Mining interests overseas.  A previous boyfriend was of a
Mexican-American family in the border town whose circumstance and status was
somewhat higher than our own...  most of the merchant and professional class
were the grandchildren of Mexicans who lived there when it *was* Mexico (pre
Gadsden Purchase).   My parents had a similar (though more muted) reaction
to him... that surprised me as well since well over half of our friends and
classmates  from 1st Grade has Spanish surnames.   They may have also
questioned her more Anglo-Normative boyfriends along the way, maybe they
were just overprotective? 

Rattling on about my sister and her family, they volunteer with Central
American refugees in Tucson because they are both fluent in Spanish and just
in the last year acknowledged that maybe Global Warming was real AND
anthropogenic and maybe they should try to recycle or carpool or something
(snarky, sorry)...so there is hope...  

Yes to "context and perspective"...

- Steve

On 9/5/20 3:27 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
wrote:

Steve, 

 

Your story, like so many of your stories, cuts to the heart.  If you haven't
already, I recommend you read Go Call a Watchmen, the pre-written sequel to
To Kill a Mockingbird, in which Scout discovers that, at least from seen
from a Northern perspective, is actually a flaming racist.  That perspective
thing, as Glen keeps reminding me, is so important.  I would love to know
what you (-all) think of that book. 

 

Nick 

 

 

 

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam   
On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 1:27 PM
To: friam@redfish.com  
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

 

Nick -

I think I may well know the man of whom you speak... he is in my "second
order circle" so I only see him while visiting certain friends or at events
we all share or the occasional criss-cross in a public venue.   I will try
to remember to ask him if he remembers YOU...   

Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Russ Abbott]

Trump’s charm comes from the fact that he tells the truth about his basest
impulses


I like your theory. Somehow I doubt it would work for everyone. Why does it
work for Trump?

Part of it may be that Trump goes one step beyond affirming his basest
impulses. He assumes them and then glories in what he paints as the
positive consequences. Cheering on right-wing thugs means that he can claim
that the implied violence they represent will back him when he needs it.
Transactionalism means that he is always "winning" and always doing things
that will make him richer. Sexism means that he always has a supply of
women at his call. Continually repeating his lies means that he always has
a crowd of people who believe him. Constant bullying and name-calling means
that he puts himself in a position to judge and demean others and can
always portray himself as better than everyone else.

All-in-all he portrays himself as living the life everyone else envies. And
it works. He (presumably) has quite a bit of money and has made himself
into the most powerful person in the world. That's quite an attraction for
lots of people--especially for those who value the ends over the
means--another of the base impulses from which he has reaped significant
rewards.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles


On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 4:51 PM  wrote:

> Again, people.  Could we just forget the whole anecdote?  Please?
>
>
>
> I wish we could focus not on the particulars of the anecdote, but on that
> fact that Trump’s charm comes from the fact that he tells the truth about
> his basest impulses, while lying about everything else.  And that trait
> ingratiates with those amongst us who have base impulses for which we fear
> we might be shamed.
>
>
>
> Speaking of shame!  Whew!
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 5, 2020 5:41 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening
>
>
>
> James is the man...  I didn't want to name him speculatively on-list.   I
> don't know the Ohori's owner, only the original founder Susan Ohori... I
> guess she cashed out some time back?  It hasn't felt like her touch for
> some time.   James would have been avoiding Larry, not you, even though you
> might have been vaguely implicated in it.  He might even remember you as
> "Nick" and "from New England" and "wild eyebrows"...   the current
> circumstances don't have me "running into him" as likely as in the past,
> but the discussion is in the queue for if ever we do!
>
> Dear Steve,
>
>
>
> I would not be surprised if you did, indeed, know  him.  Somehow, he
> worked his way into being something of a water commissioner up there,
> mediating the most difficult issue I can imagine… as a stranger?  The whole
> thing seemed incredible to me, but a credit, in any case, to the vibes he
> gives off.
>
>
>
> I won’t tell on FRIAM entire story of how our last meeting went.  I also
> befriended the then owner of Ohori’s, a very sweet and generous human, also
> with LOTS of life experience, who can easily flip into right wing asshole
> or left wing asshole, depending of what is needed to call attention to
> himself and create tension in the room.  So I am sitting talking to our
> tall friend and Larry comes up to the table and says, “Can I join you?”  I
> want to say no, but Larry does, after all, own  the place, so my Liberal
> anybody-can-talk-to-any-body-else thing kicks in, and we’re off.  Larry
> flips into right-wing asshole, I try to modulate, and Our Friend stays for
> a suitably polite interval and then makes his excuses and leaves.  As he
> goes out the door, Larry turns to me and says, “Did I say something?”
> (Larry is not a complete idiot; he just plays one on TV)
>
>
>
> It goes down as one of the most humiliating moments of my life.  But I am
> not sure you can repair it.  I guess you could say, if he remembers me,
> that the bald, lame, crow-watcher thinks fondly of him, would love to know
> how the water thing worked out, and looks forward to running into him again
> as soon as I can start going to coffee houses again.  I think his name is
> James.
>
>
>
> I am glad to know he is alive, and presumably well.
>
>
>
> As to you second story, it is terribly familiar.  Both my father and my
> older brother could, when not sober, talk about “Jews”.  It just seemed to
> come out of nowhere.  I will reserve my further comment for a FRIAM post
> which I will make in a moment.
>
>
>
> Thanks, Steve,
>
>
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam   *On
> Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* 

Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Frank Wimberly]

  And that trait ingratiates with those amongst us who have base impulses
for which we fear we might be shamed.

And that includes everyone.  But then most of us have superegos that
constrain us.  Trump less so.


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 5:51 PM  wrote:

> Again, people.  Could we just forget the whole anecdote?  Please?
>
>
>
> I wish we could focus not on the particulars of the anecdote, but on that
> fact that Trump’s charm comes from the fact that he tells the truth about
> his basest impulses, while lying about everything else.  And that trait
> ingratiates with those amongst us who have base impulses for which we fear
> we might be shamed.
>
>
>
> Speaking of shame!  Whew!
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 5, 2020 5:41 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening
>
>
>
> James is the man...  I didn't want to name him speculatively on-list.   I
> don't know the Ohori's owner, only the original founder Susan Ohori... I
> guess she cashed out some time back?  It hasn't felt like her touch for
> some time.   James would have been avoiding Larry, not you, even though you
> might have been vaguely implicated in it.  He might even remember you as
> "Nick" and "from New England" and "wild eyebrows"...   the current
> circumstances don't have me "running into him" as likely as in the past,
> but the discussion is in the queue for if ever we do!
>
> Dear Steve,
>
>
>
> I would not be surprised if you did, indeed, know  him.  Somehow, he
> worked his way into being something of a water commissioner up there,
> mediating the most difficult issue I can imagine… as a stranger?  The whole
> thing seemed incredible to me, but a credit, in any case, to the vibes he
> gives off.
>
>
>
> I won’t tell on FRIAM entire story of how our last meeting went.  I also
> befriended the then owner of Ohori’s, a very sweet and generous human, also
> with LOTS of life experience, who can easily flip into right wing asshole
> or left wing asshole, depending of what is needed to call attention to
> himself and create tension in the room.  So I am sitting talking to our
> tall friend and Larry comes up to the table and says, “Can I join you?”  I
> want to say no, but Larry does, after all, own  the place, so my Liberal
> anybody-can-talk-to-any-body-else thing kicks in, and we’re off.  Larry
> flips into right-wing asshole, I try to modulate, and Our Friend stays for
> a suitably polite interval and then makes his excuses and leaves.  As he
> goes out the door, Larry turns to me and says, “Did I say something?”
> (Larry is not a complete idiot; he just plays one on TV)
>
>
>
> It goes down as one of the most humiliating moments of my life.  But I am
> not sure you can repair it.  I guess you could say, if he remembers me,
> that the bald, lame, crow-watcher thinks fondly of him, would love to know
> how the water thing worked out, and looks forward to running into him again
> as soon as I can start going to coffee houses again.  I think his name is
> James.
>
>
>
> I am glad to know he is alive, and presumably well.
>
>
>
> As to you second story, it is terribly familiar.  Both my father and my
> older brother could, when not sober, talk about “Jews”.  It just seemed to
> come out of nowhere.  I will reserve my further comment for a FRIAM post
> which I will make in a moment.
>
>
>
> Thanks, Steve,
>
>
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam   *On
> Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 5, 2020 1:27 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening
>
>
>
> Nick -
>
> I think I may well know the man of whom you speak... he is in my "second
> order circle" so I only see him while visiting certain friends or at events
> we all share or the occasional criss-cross in a public venue.   I will try
> to remember to ask him if he remembers YOU...   question is which
> stereotype might I appeal to to describe you to him?   I won't speculate on
> what forms that might take as I explore my own stereotypes, or worse yet,
> my projections of what *his* stereotypes of you might be. If we are
> talking about the same person I doubt he would have "avoided you"... he has
> been fairly politely blunt with me a few times and then resumed the jovial
> conversations we were having.   He seemed very practiced at navigating (not
> so) hidden judgements and assumptions about him.
>
> My own mother had a modest amount of self-awareness, growing up in KY
> fairly proud of being a 

Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Steve Smith]

Nick -

I think I read /Watchmen/ decades ago... it is a good addition to my
reading list with Mary (she has mentioned it recently)... we read books
together (how quaint).   Right now we are on Victor Klemperer's diaries
from the Nazi years in Germany as a Jewish man married to an Aryan
woman, and the slow erosion and decline of their circumstances, his
rights, and hers by association (in a time/culture where the man of the
family had primary status, and  yet the Aryan of the family had higher
status in many ways).   It is heartbreaking and very cautionary as we
watch the norms of a society get eroded away on one side as a subset of
ruthless and ambitious characters seduce and intimidate the populace
into normalizing pretty marginalizing (and ultimately brutal) behaviour
of one segment of population against the other.  Spoiler alert - the
time-period is 1934-1944 so you can guess "how it turns out".

Other (re)reads have included Moby Dick, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance, The Woman at Otowi Bridge (Edith Warner), a biography of
Maria Martinez (potter), the biography of Mabel Dodge-Luhan.   Not only
do these books read differently the second time around (decades later)
but in the light of a new (2+ years) partner whose backround and
perspective is radically different.   Mary is much more attuned to the
Civil Rights issues than I... she grew up in her own version of remote
(a tiny college town, Chadron NE near the Pine Ridge Rez) with a mother
who was a strong civic member and Democrat amongst mostly Republican
farm/ranch folks... her father was probably a Republican if he voted...
her brothers all rode to Sturgis, voted for Trump and are likely to
again, etc.   but/and she loves them, even if she won't speak her mind
openly on those topics with them.  

My sister who dated her African American friend for a time is now in her
mid-60's asking her children, my children and even Mary and I for
"something she can read to understand 'all that'"...  She and her
husband voted for Trump but probably won't again, and in her defense,
lived out-of-country in Spain and Chile for most of their adult lives,
as part of the colonialism of American Mining interests overseas.  A
previous boyfriend was of a Mexican-American family in the border town
whose circumstance and status was somewhat higher than our own...  most
of the merchant and professional class were the grandchildren of
Mexicans who lived there when it *was* Mexico (pre Gadsden Purchase).  
My parents had a similar (though more muted) reaction to him... that
surprised me as well since well over half of our friends and classmates 
from 1st Grade has Spanish surnames.   They may have also questioned her
more Anglo-Normative boyfriends along the way, maybe they were just
overprotective?

Rattling on about my sister and her family, they volunteer with Central
American refugees in Tucson because they are both fluent in Spanish and
just in the last year acknowledged that maybe Global Warming was real
AND anthropogenic and maybe they should try to recycle or carpool or
something (snarky, sorry)...so there is hope... 

Yes to "context and perspective"...

- Steve

On 9/5/20 3:27 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
>  
>
> Your story, like so many of your stories, cuts to the heart.  If you
> haven’t already, I recommend you read /Go Call a Watchmen, /the
> pre-written sequel to /To Kill a Mockingbird, /in which Scout
> discovers that, at least from seen from a Northern perspective, is
> actually a flaming racist.  That perspective thing, as Glen keeps
> reminding me, is so important.  I would love to know what you (-all)
> think of that book.
>
>  
>
> Nick
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 5, 2020 1:27 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening
>
>  
>
> Nick -
>
> I think I may well know the man of whom you speak... he is in my
> "second order circle" so I only see him while visiting certain friends
> or at events we all share or the occasional criss-cross in a public
> venue.   I will try to remember to ask him if he remembers YOU...  
> question is which stereotype might I appeal to to describe you to
> him?   I won't speculate on what forms that might take as I explore my
> own stereotypes, or worse yet, my projections of what *his*
> stereotypes of you might be. If we are talking about the same
> person I doubt he would have "avoided you"... he has been fairly
> politely blunt with me a few times and then resumed the jovial
> conversations we were having.   He seemed very practiced at navigating
> (not so) hidden judgements and assumptions about him.
>
> My own mother had a modest amount of self-awareness, growing up in 

Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[thompnickson2]

Again, people.  Could we just forget the whole anecdote?  Please?  

 

I wish we could focus not on the particulars of the anecdote, but on that
fact that Trump's charm comes from the fact that he tells the truth about
his basest impulses, while lying about everything else.  And that trait
ingratiates with those amongst us who have base impulses for which we fear
we might be shamed. 

 

Speaking of shame!  Whew!

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 5:41 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

 

James is the man...  I didn't want to name him speculatively on-list.   I
don't know the Ohori's owner, only the original founder Susan Ohori... I
guess she cashed out some time back?  It hasn't felt like her touch for some
time.   James would have been avoiding Larry, not you, even though you might
have been vaguely implicated in it.  He might even remember you as "Nick"
and "from New England" and "wild eyebrows"...   the current circumstances
don't have me "running into him" as likely as in the past, but the
discussion is in the queue for if ever we do!



Dear Steve,  

 

I would not be surprised if you did, indeed, know  him.  Somehow, he worked
his way into being something of a water commissioner up there, mediating the
most difficult issue I can imagine. as a stranger?  The whole thing seemed
incredible to me, but a credit, in any case, to the vibes he gives off.  

 

I won't tell on FRIAM entire story of how our last meeting went.  I also
befriended the then owner of Ohori's, a very sweet and generous human, also
with LOTS of life experience, who can easily flip into right wing asshole or
left wing asshole, depending of what is needed to call attention to himself
and create tension in the room.  So I am sitting talking to our tall friend
and Larry comes up to the table and says, "Can I join you?"  I want to say
no, but Larry does, after all, own  the place, so my Liberal
anybody-can-talk-to-any-body-else thing kicks in, and we're off.  Larry
flips into right-wing asshole, I try to modulate, and Our Friend stays for a
suitably polite interval and then makes his excuses and leaves.  As he goes
out the door, Larry turns to me and says, "Did I say something?" (Larry is
not a complete idiot; he just plays one on TV)  

 

It goes down as one of the most humiliating moments of my life.  But I am
not sure you can repair it.  I guess you could say, if he remembers me, that
the bald, lame, crow-watcher thinks fondly of him, would love to know how
the water thing worked out, and looks forward to running into him again as
soon as I can start going to coffee houses again.  I think his name is
James. 

 

I am glad to know he is alive, and presumably well. 

 

As to you second story, it is terribly familiar.  Both my father and my
older brother could, when not sober, talk about "Jews".  It just seemed to
come out of nowhere.  I will reserve my further comment for a FRIAM post
which I will make in a moment.   

 

Thanks, Steve, 

 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam   
On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 1:27 PM
To: friam@redfish.com  
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

 

Nick -

I think I may well know the man of whom you speak... he is in my "second
order circle" so I only see him while visiting certain friends or at events
we all share or the occasional criss-cross in a public venue.   I will try
to remember to ask him if he remembers YOU...   question is which stereotype
might I appeal to to describe you to him?   I won't speculate on what forms
that might take as I explore my own stereotypes, or worse yet, my
projections of what *his* stereotypes of you might be. If we are talking
about the same person I doubt he would have "avoided you"... he has been
fairly politely blunt with me a few times and then resumed the jovial
conversations we were having.   He seemed very practiced at navigating (not
so) hidden judgements and assumptions about him. 

My own mother had a modest amount of self-awareness, growing up in KY fairly
proud of being a "Yankee" in the sense of north of the Mason-Dixon and from
a subculture that was too poor to have ever risked owning a slave or having
a close relative who did.  She lived with her aunt in the city of Frankfort
during the school year in the depression for lots of reasons.   She was
therefore raised as an only child, her cousins 

Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Steve Smith]

James is the man...  I didn't want to name him speculatively on-list.  
I don't know the Ohori's owner, only the original founder Susan Ohori...
I guess she cashed out some time back?  It hasn't felt like her touch
for some time.   James would have been avoiding Larry, not you, even
though you might have been vaguely implicated in it.  He might even
remember you as "Nick" and "from New England" and "wild eyebrows"...  
the current circumstances don't have me "running into him" as likely as
in the past, but the discussion is in the queue for if ever we do!
>
> Dear Steve, 
>
>  
>
> I would not be surprised if you did, indeed, know  him.  Somehow, he
> worked his way into being something of a water commissioner up there,
> mediating the most difficult issue I can imagine… as a stranger?  The
> whole thing seemed incredible to me, but a credit, in any case, to the
> vibes he gives off. 
>
>  
>
> I won’t tell on FRIAM entire story of how our last meeting went.  I
> also befriended the then owner of Ohori’s, a very sweet and generous
> human, also with LOTS of life experience, who can easily flip into
> right wing asshole or left wing asshole, depending of what is needed
> to call attention to himself and create tension in the room.  So I am
> sitting talking to our tall friend and Larry comes up to the table and
> says, “Can I join you?”  I want to say no, but Larry does, after all,
> own  the place, so my Liberal anybody-can-talk-to-any-body-else thing
> kicks in, and we’re off.  Larry flips into right-wing asshole, I try
> to modulate, and Our Friend stays for a suitably polite interval and
> then makes his excuses and leaves.  As he goes out the door, Larry
> turns to me and says, “Did I say something?” (Larry is not a complete
> idiot; he just plays one on TV) 
>
>  
>
> It goes down as one of the most humiliating moments of my life.  But I
> am not sure you can repair it.  I guess you could say, if he remembers
> me, that the bald, lame, crow-watcher thinks fondly of him, would love
> to know how the water thing worked out, and looks forward to running
> into him again as soon as I can start going to coffee houses again.  I
> think his name is James.
>
>  
>
> I am glad to know he is alive, and presumably well.
>
>  
>
> As to you second story, it is terribly familiar.  Both my father and
> my older brother could, when not sober, talk about “Jews”.  It just
> seemed to come out of nowhere.  I will reserve my further comment for
> a FRIAM post which I will make in a moment.   
>
>  
>
> Thanks, Steve,
>
>  
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 5, 2020 1:27 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening
>
>  
>
> Nick -
>
> I think I may well know the man of whom you speak... he is in my
> "second order circle" so I only see him while visiting certain friends
> or at events we all share or the occasional criss-cross in a public
> venue.   I will try to remember to ask him if he remembers YOU...  
> question is which stereotype might I appeal to to describe you to
> him?   I won't speculate on what forms that might take as I explore my
> own stereotypes, or worse yet, my projections of what *his*
> stereotypes of you might be. If we are talking about the same
> person I doubt he would have "avoided you"... he has been fairly
> politely blunt with me a few times and then resumed the jovial
> conversations we were having.   He seemed very practiced at navigating
> (not so) hidden judgements and assumptions about him.
>
> My own mother had a modest amount of self-awareness, growing up in KY
> fairly proud of being a "Yankee" in the sense of north of the
> Mason-Dixon and from a subculture that was too poor to have ever
> risked owning a slave or having a close relative who did.  She lived
> with her aunt in the city of Frankfort during the school year in the
> depression for lots of reasons.   She was therefore raised as an only
> child, her cousins having recently grown and moved out of the family
> home.   She tells an anecdote of having developed a friendship with a
> girl who lived *somewhere* between *her school* and her aunt's
> house... she would pause to play with her every day after school until
> it got to where she started being noticeably late home... when she
> told her aunt why she was late, she said "why don't you just invite
> your friend home next time and you can play here!"...  she asked her
> friend who resisted for about a week and then finally came home (her
> aunt married a Scottish Doctor, so their home was very meticulous and
> in a nicer neighborhood, but they lived crazy-frugal anyway) and after
> the first day, her aunt very politely told her not to invite the
> friend back, and in 

Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[thompnickson2]

Yes, of course.  Sorry.  Thanks for the correction, Gary.  

 

I seem to be suicidally error prone, today. 

 

Nick

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 3:44 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

 

It appears the title of the book is actually "Go Set a Watchman" (see 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_Set_a_Watchman).

 

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 4:27 PM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Steve, 

 

Your story, like so many of your stories, cuts to the heart.  If you haven’t 
already, I recommend you read Go Call a Watchmen, the pre-written sequel to To 
Kill a Mockingbird, in which Scout discovers that, at least from seen from a 
Northern perspective, is actually a flaming racist.  That perspective thing, as 
Glen keeps reminding me, is so important.  I would love to know what you (-all) 
think of that book. 

 

Nick 

 

 

 

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 1:27 PM
To: friam@redfish.com  
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

 

Nick -

I think I may well know the man of whom you speak... he is in my "second order 
circle" so I only see him while visiting certain friends or at events we all 
share or the occasional criss-cross in a public venue.   I will try to remember 
to ask him if he remembers YOU...   question is which stereotype might I appeal 
to to describe you to him?   I won't speculate on what forms that might take as 
I explore my own stereotypes, or worse yet, my projections of what *his* 
stereotypes of you might be. If we are talking about the same person I 
doubt he would have "avoided you"... he has been fairly politely blunt with me 
a few times and then resumed the jovial conversations we were having.   He 
seemed very practiced at navigating (not so) hidden judgements and assumptions 
about him. 

My own mother had a modest amount of self-awareness, growing up in KY fairly 
proud of being a "Yankee" in the sense of north of the Mason-Dixon and from a 
subculture that was too poor to have ever risked owning a slave or having a 
close relative who did.  She lived with her aunt in the city of Frankfort 
during the school year in the depression for lots of reasons.   She was 
therefore raised as an only child, her cousins having recently grown and moved 
out of the family home.   She tells an anecdote of having developed a 
friendship with a girl who lived *somewhere* between *her school* and her 
aunt's house... she would pause to play with her every day after school until 
it got to where she started being noticeably late home... when she told her 
aunt why she was late, she said "why don't you just invite your friend home 
next time and you can play here!"...  she asked her friend who resisted for 
about a week and then finally came home (her aunt married a Scottish Doctor, so 
their home was very meticulous and in a nicer neighborhood, but they lived 
crazy-frugal anyway) and after the first day, her aunt very politely told her 
not to invite the friend back, and in fact, was forbidden to play with her 
anymore.   The little girl was apparently the first black person she had ever 
met and it was years later that she guessed that that was what it was all 
about...   her aunt was too "polite" to make a deal about it and too 
"authoritarian" to be questioned.Later her mother gave her a family 
heirloom which was referred to colloquially as a "tar baby" which her mother 
explained to her had been a type of doll that young girls were given to "play 
with" in the style and memory of how their ancestors had been allowed to "play 
with" the slave babies.   Her mother explained how wrong *all* of it was, from 
the slavery to the treating even the babies as property, to replacing them 
post-emancipation with effigies, etc.   I learned this when she was unpacking 
from one of our moves and it showed up in a cardboard barrel amongst her 
mother's (our aunt's) china that we never used...  my sister saw it and was 
intrigued and "wanted to play with it" whereupon my mother tried to explain all 
of this to us and then declaring that "the best thing I can do is get rid of 
it, it is just a reflection of a bad piece of history".   I don't know if it 
went in the burn barrel with our other trash or if she figured out some more 
respectful disposal method... I would like to think she knew 

[FRIAM] GULP, ONLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[thompnickson2]

Oh, Geez.  And then I did send it to FRIAM.

 

This technology should not be trusted to idiots.  

 

Please, my friends, do me the honor of forgetting what I said there.
Please?  I have edited it below to protect the innocent.  Please delete the
previous version.  As you are my friends. 

 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: thompnicks...@gmail.com  
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 3:24 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

 

Dear Steve,  

 

I would not be surprised if you did, indeed, know  him.  Somehow, he worked
his way into being something of a water commissioner up there, mediating the
most difficult issue I can imagine. as a stranger?  The whole thing seemed
incredible to me, but a credit, in any case, to the vibes he gives off.  

 

[NST===><===nst] . I am sitting in a coffee house talking to our tall friend
and X comes up to the table and says, "Can I join you?"  I want to say no,
but X does, after all, own  the place, so my Liberal
anybody-can-talk-to-any-body-else thing kicks in, and we're off.  X flips
into right-wing asshole, I try to modulate, and Our Friend stays for a
suitably polite interval and then makes his excuses and leaves.  As he goes
out the door, X turns to me and says, "Did I say something?" (X is not a
complete idiot; he just plays one on TV)  

 

It goes down as one of the most humiliating moments of my life.  But I am
not sure you can repair it.  I guess you could say, if he remembers me, that
the bald, lame, crow-watcher thinks fondly of him, would love to know how
the water thing worked out, and looks forward to running into him again as
soon as I can start going to coffee houses again.  

 

I am glad to know he is alive, and presumably well. 

 

As to you second story, it is terribly familiar.  Both my father and my
older brother could, when not sober, talk about "Jews".  It just seemed to
come out of nowhere.  I will reserve my further comment for a FRIAM post
which I will make in a moment.   

 

Thanks, Steve, 

 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 1:27 PM
To: friam@redfish.com  
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

 

Nick -

I think I may well know the man of whom you speak... he is in my "second
order circle" so I only see him while visiting certain friends or at events
we all share or the occasional criss-cross in a public venue.   I will try
to remember to ask him if he remembers YOU...   question is which stereotype
might I appeal to to describe you to him?   I won't speculate on what forms
that might take as I explore my own stereotypes, or worse yet, my
projections of what *his* stereotypes of you might be. If we are talking
about the same person I doubt he would have "avoided you"... he has been
fairly politely blunt with me a few times and then resumed the jovial
conversations we were having.   He seemed very practiced at navigating (not
so) hidden judgements and assumptions about him. 

My own mother had a modest amount of self-awareness, growing up in KY fairly
proud of being a "Yankee" in the sense of north of the Mason-Dixon and from
a subculture that was too poor to have ever risked owning a slave or having
a close relative who did.  She lived with her aunt in the city of Frankfort
during the school year in the depression for lots of reasons.   She was
therefore raised as an only child, her cousins having recently grown and
moved out of the family home.   She tells an anecdote of having developed a
friendship with a girl who lived *somewhere* between *her school* and her
aunt's house... she would pause to play with her every day after school
until it got to where she started being noticeably late home... when she
told her aunt why she was late, she said "why don't you just invite your
friend home next time and you can play here!"...  she asked her friend who
resisted for about a week and then finally came home (her aunt married a
Scottish Doctor, so their home was very meticulous and in a nicer
neighborhood, but they lived crazy-frugal anyway) and after the first day,
her aunt very politely told her not to invite the friend back, and in fact,
was forbidden to play with her anymore.   The little girl was apparently the
first black person she had ever met and it was years later that she guessed
that that was what it was all about...   her aunt was too "polite" to make a
deal about it and too 

Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Gary Schiltz]

It appears the title of the book is actually "Go Set a Watchman" (see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_Set_a_Watchman).

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 4:27 PM  wrote:

> Steve,
>
>
>
> Your story, like so many of your stories, cuts to the heart.  If you
> haven’t already, I recommend you read *Go Call a Watchmen, *the
> pre-written sequel to *To Kill a Mockingbird, *in which Scout discovers
> that, at least from seen from a Northern perspective, is actually a flaming
> racist.  That perspective thing, as Glen keeps reminding me, is so
> important.  I would love to know what you (-all) think of that book.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 5, 2020 1:27 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening
>
>
>
> Nick -
>
> I think I may well know the man of whom you speak... he is in my "second
> order circle" so I only see him while visiting certain friends or at events
> we all share or the occasional criss-cross in a public venue.   I will try
> to remember to ask him if he remembers YOU...   question is which
> stereotype might I appeal to to describe you to him?   I won't speculate on
> what forms that might take as I explore my own stereotypes, or worse yet,
> my projections of what *his* stereotypes of you might be. If we are
> talking about the same person I doubt he would have "avoided you"... he has
> been fairly politely blunt with me a few times and then resumed the jovial
> conversations we were having.   He seemed very practiced at navigating (not
> so) hidden judgements and assumptions about him.
>
> My own mother had a modest amount of self-awareness, growing up in KY
> fairly proud of being a "Yankee" in the sense of north of the Mason-Dixon
> and from a subculture that was too poor to have ever risked owning a slave
> or having a close relative who did.  She lived with her aunt in the city of
> Frankfort during the school year in the depression for lots of reasons.
> She was therefore raised as an only child, her cousins having recently
> grown and moved out of the family home.   She tells an anecdote of having
> developed a friendship with a girl who lived *somewhere* between *her
> school* and her aunt's house... she would pause to play with her every day
> after school until it got to where she started being noticeably late
> home... when she told her aunt why she was late, she said "why don't you
> just invite your friend home next time and you can play here!"...  she
> asked her friend who resisted for about a week and then finally came home
> (her aunt married a Scottish Doctor, so their home was very meticulous and
> in a nicer neighborhood, but they lived crazy-frugal anyway) and after the
> first day, her aunt very politely told her not to invite the friend back,
> and in fact, was forbidden to play with her anymore.   The little girl was
> apparently the first black person she had ever met and it was years later
> that she guessed that that was what it was all about...   her aunt was too
> "polite" to make a deal about it and too "authoritarian" to be
> questioned.Later her mother gave her a family heirloom which was
> referred to colloquially as a "tar baby" which her mother explained to her
> had been a type of doll that young girls were given to "play with" in the
> style and memory of how their ancestors had been allowed to "play with" the
> slave babies.   Her mother explained how wrong *all* of it was, from the
> slavery to the treating even the babies as property, to replacing them
> post-emancipation with effigies, etc.   I learned this when she was
> unpacking from one of our moves and it showed up in a cardboard barrel
> amongst her mother's (our aunt's) china that we never used...  my sister
> saw it and was intrigued and "wanted to play with it" whereupon my mother
> tried to explain all of this to us and then declaring that "the best thing
> I can do is get rid of it, it is just a reflection of a bad piece of
> history".   I don't know if it went in the burn barrel with our other trash
> or if she figured out some more respectful disposal method... I would like
> to think she knew of a historian or similar for whom such an artifact could
> be made meaningful.   This and other similar instances made me think that
> my parents were the least prejudiced people I knew, until at 19 my sister
> who had a small group of friends from college, one of who was African
> American...  my parents liked him a lot, he was a very sociable and
> interesting person (his father was career military and his mother had died
> when he was young and he and two sisters were raised by "help").   But at
> some point, the friendship drifted into the boyfriend zone and they very
> sternly, albeit embarrassingly disabused 

Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[thompnickson2]

Steve, 

 

Your story, like so many of your stories, cuts to the heart.  If you haven't
already, I recommend you read Go Call a Watchmen, the pre-written sequel to
To Kill a Mockingbird, in which Scout discovers that, at least from seen
from a Northern perspective, is actually a flaming racist.  That perspective
thing, as Glen keeps reminding me, is so important.  I would love to know
what you (-all) think of that book. 

 

Nick 

 

 

 

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 1:27 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

 

Nick -

I think I may well know the man of whom you speak... he is in my "second
order circle" so I only see him while visiting certain friends or at events
we all share or the occasional criss-cross in a public venue.   I will try
to remember to ask him if he remembers YOU...   question is which stereotype
might I appeal to to describe you to him?   I won't speculate on what forms
that might take as I explore my own stereotypes, or worse yet, my
projections of what *his* stereotypes of you might be. If we are talking
about the same person I doubt he would have "avoided you"... he has been
fairly politely blunt with me a few times and then resumed the jovial
conversations we were having.   He seemed very practiced at navigating (not
so) hidden judgements and assumptions about him. 

My own mother had a modest amount of self-awareness, growing up in KY fairly
proud of being a "Yankee" in the sense of north of the Mason-Dixon and from
a subculture that was too poor to have ever risked owning a slave or having
a close relative who did.  She lived with her aunt in the city of Frankfort
during the school year in the depression for lots of reasons.   She was
therefore raised as an only child, her cousins having recently grown and
moved out of the family home.   She tells an anecdote of having developed a
friendship with a girl who lived *somewhere* between *her school* and her
aunt's house... she would pause to play with her every day after school
until it got to where she started being noticeably late home... when she
told her aunt why she was late, she said "why don't you just invite your
friend home next time and you can play here!"...  she asked her friend who
resisted for about a week and then finally came home (her aunt married a
Scottish Doctor, so their home was very meticulous and in a nicer
neighborhood, but they lived crazy-frugal anyway) and after the first day,
her aunt very politely told her not to invite the friend back, and in fact,
was forbidden to play with her anymore.   The little girl was apparently the
first black person she had ever met and it was years later that she guessed
that that was what it was all about...   her aunt was too "polite" to make a
deal about it and too "authoritarian" to be questioned.Later her mother
gave her a family heirloom which was referred to colloquially as a "tar
baby" which her mother explained to her had been a type of doll that young
girls were given to "play with" in the style and memory of how their
ancestors had been allowed to "play with" the slave babies.   Her mother
explained how wrong *all* of it was, from the slavery to the treating even
the babies as property, to replacing them post-emancipation with effigies,
etc.   I learned this when she was unpacking from one of our moves and it
showed up in a cardboard barrel amongst her mother's (our aunt's) china that
we never used...  my sister saw it and was intrigued and "wanted to play
with it" whereupon my mother tried to explain all of this to us and then
declaring that "the best thing I can do is get rid of it, it is just a
reflection of a bad piece of history".   I don't know if it went in the burn
barrel with our other trash or if she figured out some more respectful
disposal method... I would like to think she knew of a historian or similar
for whom such an artifact could be made meaningful.   This and other similar
instances made me think that my parents were the least prejudiced people I
knew, until at 19 my sister who had a small group of friends from college,
one of who was African American...  my parents liked him a lot, he was a
very sociable and interesting person (his father was career military and his
mother had died when he was young and he and two sisters were raised by
"help").   But at some point, the friendship drifted into the boyfriend zone
and they very sternly, albeit embarrassingly disabused me of the thought
that they were not prejudiced.   I don't remember the exact conversations
but it was clear that they were very much against the relationship, even if
they didn't quite try to forbid their (adult) daughter from continuing.   I
think they 

[FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[thompnickson2]

Dear Steve,  

 

I would not be surprised if you did, indeed, know  him.  Somehow, he worked
his way into being something of a water commissioner up there, mediating the
most difficult issue I can imagine. as a stranger?  The whole thing seemed
incredible to me, but a credit, in any case, to the vibes he gives off.  

 

I won't tell on FRIAM entire story of how our last meeting went.  I also
befriended the then owner of Ohori's, a very sweet and generous human, also
with LOTS of life experience, who can easily flip into right wing asshole or
left wing asshole, depending of what is needed to call attention to himself
and create tension in the room.  So I am sitting talking to our tall friend
and Larry comes up to the table and says, "Can I join you?"  I want to say
no, but Larry does, after all, own  the place, so my Liberal
anybody-can-talk-to-any-body-else thing kicks in, and we're off.  Larry
flips into right-wing asshole, I try to modulate, and Our Friend stays for a
suitably polite interval and then makes his excuses and leaves.  As he goes
out the door, Larry turns to me and says, "Did I say something?" (Larry is
not a complete idiot; he just plays one on TV)  

 

It goes down as one of the most humiliating moments of my life.  But I am
not sure you can repair it.  I guess you could say, if he remembers me, that
the bald, lame, crow-watcher thinks fondly of him, would love to know how
the water thing worked out, and looks forward to running into him again as
soon as I can start going to coffee houses again.  I think his name is
James. 

 

I am glad to know he is alive, and presumably well. 

 

As to you second story, it is terribly familiar.  Both my father and my
older brother could, when not sober, talk about "Jews".  It just seemed to
come out of nowhere.  I will reserve my further comment for a FRIAM post
which I will make in a moment.   

 

Thanks, Steve, 

 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 1:27 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

 

Nick -

I think I may well know the man of whom you speak... he is in my "second
order circle" so I only see him while visiting certain friends or at events
we all share or the occasional criss-cross in a public venue.   I will try
to remember to ask him if he remembers YOU...   question is which stereotype
might I appeal to to describe you to him?   I won't speculate on what forms
that might take as I explore my own stereotypes, or worse yet, my
projections of what *his* stereotypes of you might be. If we are talking
about the same person I doubt he would have "avoided you"... he has been
fairly politely blunt with me a few times and then resumed the jovial
conversations we were having.   He seemed very practiced at navigating (not
so) hidden judgements and assumptions about him. 

My own mother had a modest amount of self-awareness, growing up in KY fairly
proud of being a "Yankee" in the sense of north of the Mason-Dixon and from
a subculture that was too poor to have ever risked owning a slave or having
a close relative who did.  She lived with her aunt in the city of Frankfort
during the school year in the depression for lots of reasons.   She was
therefore raised as an only child, her cousins having recently grown and
moved out of the family home.   She tells an anecdote of having developed a
friendship with a girl who lived *somewhere* between *her school* and her
aunt's house... she would pause to play with her every day after school
until it got to where she started being noticeably late home... when she
told her aunt why she was late, she said "why don't you just invite your
friend home next time and you can play here!"...  she asked her friend who
resisted for about a week and then finally came home (her aunt married a
Scottish Doctor, so their home was very meticulous and in a nicer
neighborhood, but they lived crazy-frugal anyway) and after the first day,
her aunt very politely told her not to invite the friend back, and in fact,
was forbidden to play with her anymore.   The little girl was apparently the
first black person she had ever met and it was years later that she guessed
that that was what it was all about...   her aunt was too "polite" to make a
deal about it and too "authoritarian" to be questioned.Later her mother
gave her a family heirloom which was referred to colloquially as a "tar
baby" which her mother explained to her had been a type of doll that young
girls were given to "play with" in the style and memory of how their
ancestors had been allowed to "play with" the slave babies.   Her mother
explained how wrong *all* of it was, from the slavery to the treating even
the babies as property, to replacing 

Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Steve Smith]

Nick -

I think I may well know the man of whom you speak... he is in my "second
order circle" so I only see him while visiting certain friends or at
events we all share or the occasional criss-cross in a public venue.   I
will try to remember to ask him if he remembers YOU...   question is
which stereotype might I appeal to to describe you to him?   I won't
speculate on what forms that might take as I explore my own stereotypes,
or worse yet, my projections of what *his* stereotypes of you might
be. If we are talking about the same person I doubt he would have
"avoided you"... he has been fairly politely blunt with me a few times
and then resumed the jovial conversations we were having.   He seemed
very practiced at navigating (not so) hidden judgements and assumptions
about him.

My own mother had a modest amount of self-awareness, growing up in KY
fairly proud of being a "Yankee" in the sense of north of the
Mason-Dixon and from a subculture that was too poor to have ever risked
owning a slave or having a close relative who did.  She lived with her
aunt in the city of Frankfort during the school year in the depression
for lots of reasons.   She was therefore raised as an only child, her
cousins having recently grown and moved out of the family home.   She
tells an anecdote of having developed a friendship with a girl who lived
*somewhere* between *her school* and her aunt's house... she would pause
to play with her every day after school until it got to where she
started being noticeably late home... when she told her aunt why she was
late, she said "why don't you just invite your friend home next time and
you can play here!"...  she asked her friend who resisted for about a
week and then finally came home (her aunt married a Scottish Doctor, so
their home was very meticulous and in a nicer neighborhood, but they
lived crazy-frugal anyway) and after the first day, her aunt very
politely told her not to invite the friend back, and in fact, was
forbidden to play with her anymore.   The little girl was apparently the
first black person she had ever met and it was years later that she
guessed that that was what it was all about...   her aunt was too
"polite" to make a deal about it and too "authoritarian" to be
questioned.    Later her mother gave her a family heirloom which was
referred to colloquially as a "tar baby" which her mother explained to
her had been a type of doll that young girls were given to "play with"
in the style and memory of how their ancestors had been allowed to "play
with" the slave babies.   Her mother explained how wrong *all* of it
was, from the slavery to the treating even the babies as property, to
replacing them post-emancipation with effigies, etc.   I learned this
when she was unpacking from one of our moves and it showed up in a
cardboard barrel amongst her mother's (our aunt's) china that we never
used...  my sister saw it and was intrigued and "wanted to play with it"
whereupon my mother tried to explain all of this to us and then
declaring that "the best thing I can do is get rid of it, it is just a
reflection of a bad piece of history".   I don't know if it went in the
burn barrel with our other trash or if she figured out some more
respectful disposal method... I would like to think she knew of a
historian or similar for whom such an artifact could be made
meaningful.   This and other similar instances made me think that my
parents were the least prejudiced people I knew, until at 19 my sister
who had a small group of friends from college, one of who was African
American...  my parents liked him a lot, he was a very sociable and
interesting person (his father was career military and his mother had
died when he was young and he and two sisters were raised by "help").  
But at some point, the friendship drifted into the boyfriend zone and
they very sternly, albeit embarrassingly disabused me of the thought
that they were not prejudiced.   I don't remember the exact
conversations but it was clear that they were very much against the
relationship, even if they didn't quite try to forbid their (adult)
daughter from continuing.   I think they even enlisted one of their
(more openly) racist friends to have a conversation with her.  It did
not sit well at all with me.  But made me realize how hidden some of
these judgements, stereotypes, opinions, etc can be.   I'm sure I'm
laced with junk like that.

- Steve

> Dear fellow congregants,
>
>  
>
> One of the things we talk about is our bemusement at Trump
> supporters.  One expression you often hear these supporters say is
> that they admire him because “He tells it like it is!”  They can say
> this while acknowledging  that almost everything he says is false. 
> So, if he is lying most of the time, what is he telling the truth about?
>
>  
>
> I think I know.  As I keep insisting, I am not a boomer.  I am from
> the Silent Generation, the Lonely Crowd.  My mother’s life hero was
> Eleanor Roosevelt.  It was I, aged seven, 

[FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[thompnickson2]

Dear fellow congregants,

 

One of the things we talk about is our bemusement at Trump supporters.  One
expression you often hear these supporters say is that they admire him
because "He tells it like it is!"  They can say this while acknowledging
that almost everything he says is false.  So, if he is lying most of the
time, what is he telling the truth about? 

 

I think I know.  As I keep insisting, I am not a boomer.  I am from the
Silent Generation, the Lonely Crowd.  My mother's life hero was Eleanor
Roosevelt.  It was I, aged seven, who brought the news of the President's
death to my parents, and I was startled to seem my mother burst into tears.
Crying was not her thing.  My folks were publishers. We had black, Jewish,
gay, lesbian, working class, authors visiting the house.  But - and here is
the point - when they visited, they visited as such.  Not that I was told as
a child explicitly, but it was conveyed to me as a child, somehow, that
these folks belonged to a different category.  And my education, in
Massachusetts, in the 40's, was devoid of any explicit contact with anybody
in any of these categories. 

 

Ok, fast forward 70 years to Santa Fe.  I befriend at Ohoris an extremely
tall black man, grizzled, slow moving, thoughtful, with an intricate,
international biography full of remarkable connections and coincidences.  He
fits in every conceivable way my childhood stereotype of the "old wise black
man".  I sit in rapt attention to his stories. I look up to him, which,
given his height, is my only choice. But, as we continue to meet, a tension
begins to rise between us that is coming largely from me, but I cannot
control.  He becomes aware that I am seeing him through the stereotype of
the old wise black man.  Because I cannot admit to it, he is imprisoned by
it.  Our conversations are based on a lie.  He disappears from Ohoris and I
never see him again.  He would rather eschew good coffee, than live in my
lie.  

 

This is what Donald Trump is truthful about.  He tells the truth about his
own stereotypes.  He is truthful about himself.  That what he believes is
FALSE is irrelevant to his base.  He admits to thoughts which they know many
others find distasteful.  It is hard to live in a world which has moved on
from one's childhood, a world in which others find one's basic
categorizations distasteful - in fact, a world in which one finds one's own
basic categorizations distasteful.  

 

To break Trump we need to come to a new understanding and acknowledgement of
type-isms.  There are always going to be type-isms.  We human beings do that
sort of thing.  Raised in a particular way, at a particular time I see a
tall grizzled black man as wise, and everything he says and does is read
through that lens.  That's abduction.  This person wears a dress, this
person is a woman, this person is gentle, that 's abduction.  (Well, it's
abduction-deduction, but let that go.)  Human beings naturally form identity
groups that trap ourselves and others in false abductions.  So we need to
design our society to counter these. (Libertarians beware.  Here come Nick's
white vans, again)  In this case the white van takes the form of aggressive
taxation of the rich and aggressive education of the poor, and of
institutions that promote the random mixing of our citizens (like public
universities and armies - or conservation corps).  

 

Could my friendship with the tall black guy have been rescued?  Could we
have laughed about my stereotypes?  Perhaps I should have said, early on,
"Look, I'm sorry, I keep seeing you  as Uncle Remus.  I am sure, as I get to
know you better, I will get over it.  Please be patient with me, and please
call me out whenever you feel confined by it. "  

 

A Liberalism that does not free me is not worth the name.

 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

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Re: [FRIAM] The last bookstore

[Steve Smith]

That is a cool anecdote Roger...  and I thank you for your own
moving-book-sale when you left Santa Fe (10 years ago now???) and I
picked up a boxfull of books I didn't need (but really appreciated anyway).

Did anyone (else) visit McMurtry's "bookstore town" in Archer City
TX?    I've been there several times, the first while he was standing it
up (1998?) and then when he was shrinking it back to a few buildings
2012?.   At it's heydey I remember it being at least a half-dozen old
mainstreet shopfronts filled to the gills with books he was collecting
by auction from other bookstores closing down at the time.    When I was
there the first couple of times, the secondary and tertiary buildings
were not even manned, it was on the honor system to browse the town and
bring your finds to the main building where they would price them and
send you on your way with a smile.   Larry himself was usually in the
building, had an affect that he was not interested in being engaged by
fans (of which I am only slightly anyway) but would jump right in if
there was a legitimate question about a book or a pricing ambiguity.  
The website very much understates their rich history.   I visited the
Georgetown "original" a few times in the 90s... but was underwhelmed (a
tiny garret upstairs, almost unmarked).

https://www.bookedupac.com/

Archer City was Larry's hometown and the setting of a number of
contemporary (not old west) novels, including the most famous
made-into-a-movie  "The Last Picture Show" where Jeff Bridges and Cybil
Sheppard pretty much got their start in acting as teenage hearthrobs in
a dying Texas Oil Town in the 60's.

Tying back to your own (Jochen) German roots, I highly recommend his
memoiresque book: Walter_Benjamin_at_the_Dairy_Queen


- Steve

On 9/5/20 9:13 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> I first visited Powell's the summer they opened in Portland.  Old man
> Powell gave me work cleaning up another property he owned.  
>
> Their current location was long notable for the regularly scheduled
> reek of the Blitz-Weinhard brewery located on the block to the west,
> but it's since been gentrified.
>
> The original Powell's is in Hyde Park, near the University of Chicago,
> it was a let down when I finally got there.  
>
> But The Seminary Coop, https://www.semcoop.com/, is a must visit in
> Chicago.  Check out the Front Table on their website.
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 10:24 AM ⛧ glen  > wrote:
>
> They might. But I'm spending a good portion of my income at the
> local ones. If you're visiting book stores, you must visit this
> one. A whole city block, multiple floors:
> https://www.powells.com/
>
> And stop using Amazon. 8^D
>
>
> On September 5, 2020 6:53:38 AM PDT, Jochen Fromm
> mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote:
> >
> >Do you think bookstores may die out? They have become rare here in
> >Europe. In L.A. there is a nice used bookstore named "The Last
> >Bookstore"http://lastbookstorela.comWhen Biden has won and Covid is
> >gone next year I would like to visit California, including L.A.
> and San
> >Francisco, before the last bookstore is gone.-J.
>
> -- 
> glen ⛧
>
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Re: [FRIAM] The last bookstore

[Steve Smith]

On 9/5/20 8:36 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> the block is just the main store - the computer/science/tech is in another 
> building across the street.
>
> lots of small local bookstores. LA harder to find, but San Francisco 
> plentiful.
>
> They will still be there in 2025 when you feel safe to visit the US.  

What?  I thought the Civil War would be in full swing by 2025?   I do
believe books make pretty good bullet-stops.  Maybe bookstores will
become redoubts for the intellectual elite as they "just want to keep
reading books" while the revolution is being televised (I mean
facebooked, or tweeted, or instagrammed?).    I think my adobe walls are
probably better, but then I do need to do something about the big
windows!   Glad I saved all those books!

If not a true apocalypse by then, maybe it could be a movie set in the
same world as Costner's Postman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Postman_(film)

- Steve


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Re: [FRIAM] The last bookstore

[Steve Smith]

Jochen -

Independent and Used bookstores definitely took a hit, first from the
Big Boxes like Hastings and Barnes and Noble and then a double-whammy
from Amazon.   I don't know how many more went down because of
COVID...   We have a very serious local collection of used/independent
stores whose flagship locals might recognize:  Op Cit .    They have two
satellite shops in Taos and Las Vegas, NM.   The Taos shop is in the
location of another well loved/known independent/used shop known as Moby
Dickens... I cant remember the new name, but I think it is more
interesting than "Op Cit Taos".   The Las Vegas branch is called "Tome
on the Range".   

When the COVID shutdown made me want to order books instead of browsing
for them as I usually do (even if I subsequently order because the store
doesn't have them in stock) my instinct was to go straight to Amazon,
but I also knew that OpCit (for example) was surely suffering mightily
from no walk-in business for months at least.   Even though I don't like
doing phone transactions, I gave over and quickly discovered that they
were hyper efficient if I just looked the book up and sent them a
link...   trying to avoid (ab)using *other* commercial sites for this
(only to not buy from them) but rather using publisher references,
goodreads, magazine/blog reviews, etc. to get the front/back matter,
excerpts and even reviews that I might otherwise get while browsing.

This is all somewhat ironic since I *literally* had a short back and
forth with Bezos by e-mail in roughly 1995.   I was a long-time
customer/friend of the very successful indie bookstore in Los Alamos, R
Books... which thrived on a combination of a literate professional-class
population,  a varied but generally generous policy on LANL Staff
purchasing from local stores for reimbursement (especially during the
Tech Boom) and a visiting population of international professionals who
for distribution/tariff reasons were motivated to buy US
published/distributed books from R Books (including ordering through
them) and hand-carry or even ship (overseas book rate) home.   It seems
like Aussies were the most prominent for some reason...   touting the
well-respected chain of Bookstores there known as Dymocks(sp?).    I
think this had quite a bit to do with the British Commonwealth
protectionism for Commonwealth publishers, supporting UK/etc editions
being published in parallel with US editions of many titles... but of
course not *all*, thus the international purchasers at R Books.  

All this background to frame my conversation with Bezos...  I was
negotiating with R Books to open the empty shopspace next to them as a
coffee shop, bust open an archway or two between them and share the
floorspace and possibly staff... mitigating some of their risk for
adding a coffee shop, and lowering the logistics-to-entry for an
(righteous?) entrepreneurial activity.    I pinged Bezos on a whim,
suggesting to him that small, independent bookstores like R Books might
make good "fulfillment" partners...  so when you browse for a book on
Amazon (they weren't heavily into used, yet, and R Books was strictly
new as well), you might have been offered the option of picking it up
in-person immediately at a local indie for a small discount from retail
(indies were not discounting books then, except to clear stock) and then
have Amazon score a small "referral fee"  and the bookstore make a
small(er) profit, but slow the leak from walk-in to online.   There were
lots of potential problems with this idea... or nuanced details to work
out so that it wasn't actually aggravating the problem for the indies...
but Bezos' answer was simple: "we don't need you, you are a thing of the
past, we are going to revolutionize bookselling, get out of my way".   

To add insult to injury, it was perhaps 2 weeks later that the
negotiations with the landlord on the adjacent space went crazy when it
was publicly announced that Starbucks was moving in around the corner (a
different landlord) and it turned out, that the landlord's delays were
all about them expecting to land Starbucks in *another* of their
properties.   They continued to try to court us to open the shop as
planned once they lost the Starbuck's deal, but naturally a Starbucks
within a short walk did not bode well for a local coffee shop, even if
we did have books too!   We backed off and due to other complications of
similar enough kind, R Books shut down maybe 5 years later.   Salt in
the insulted injury included Starbucks selling NYT paper (national
contract) in a manner which undermined R books roughly 40 papers a day
that represented 40 loyal customers who dropped in every day (or week
for Sunday only) with the residual value of them as likely as not to
spot if not buy on the spot, their next book read.   R Books had to
pre-purchase all copies and on Sunday, for example a few leftover copies
could negate or reverse any profits they might have gotten, nevertheless
they continued it as "a 

Re: [FRIAM] The last bookstore

[Prof David West]

you were there more recently than I, so I bow to your more current information.


On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, at 9:13 AM, ⛧ glen wrote:
> Hm. The tech store on Park and Burnside closed several years ago. Did 
> they open another one?
> 
> We've got 3 (I think) here in Oly, one of which I've committed to 
> joining as they change into a coop.
> 
> On September 5, 2020 7:36:07 AM PDT, Prof David West 
>  wrote:
> >the block is just the main store - the computer/science/tech is in
> >another building across the street.
> >
> >lots of small local bookstores. LA harder to find, but San Francisco
> >plentiful.
> >
> >They will still be there in 2025 when you feel safe to visit the US.  
> >
> >davew
> >
> >On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, at 8:24 AM, ⛧ glen wrote:
> >> They might. But I'm spending a good portion of my income at the local
> >
> >> ones. If you're visiting book stores, you must visit this one. A
> >whole 
> >> city block, multiple floors:
> >> https://www.powells.com/
> >> 
> >> And stop using Amazon. 8^D
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On September 5, 2020 6:53:38 AM PDT, Jochen Fromm
> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Do you think bookstores may die out? They have become rare here in
> >> >Europe. In L.A. there is a nice used bookstore named "The Last
> >> >Bookstore"http://lastbookstorela.comWhen Biden has won and Covid is
> >> >gone next year I would like to visit California, including L.A. and
> >San
> >> >Francisco, before the last bookstore is gone.-J.
> 
> -- 
> glen ⛧
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] The last bookstore

[Joe Spinden]

Unless people abandon physical books, which I doubt, there should at 
least be room for second hand bookstores.


One that I have not seen mentioned yet is the Strand, in NYC.  It 
occupies a city block; they advertise "18 Miles of Books".


Joe


On 9/5/20 7:53 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
Do you think bookstores may die out? They have become rare here in 
Europe.


In L.A. there is a nice used bookstore named "The Last Bookstore"
http://lastbookstorela.com

When Biden has won and Covid is gone next year I would like to visit 
California, including L.A. and San Francisco, before the last 
bookstore is gone.


-J.

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--
Joe

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Re: [FRIAM] The last bookstore

[Marcus Daniels]

Kindle prices aren't quite book prices yet.  That would be the end of books and 
bookstores IMO.  Browse-before-buy isn't as good.   That Park and Burnside 
store was a blessing in the early 90s.   

Marcus
-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of ? glen
Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 8:13 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The last bookstore

Hm. The tech store on Park and Burnside closed several years ago. Did they open 
another one?

We've got 3 (I think) here in Oly, one of which I've committed to joining as 
they change into a coop.

On September 5, 2020 7:36:07 AM PDT, Prof David West  
wrote:
>the block is just the main store - the computer/science/tech is in 
>another building across the street.
>
>lots of small local bookstores. LA harder to find, but San Francisco 
>plentiful.
>
>They will still be there in 2025 when you feel safe to visit the US.  
>
>davew
>
>On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, at 8:24 AM, ⛧ glen wrote:
>> They might. But I'm spending a good portion of my income at the local
>
>> ones. If you're visiting book stores, you must visit this one. A
>whole
>> city block, multiple floors:
>> https://www.powells.com/
>> 
>> And stop using Amazon. 8^D
>> 
>> 
>> On September 5, 2020 6:53:38 AM PDT, Jochen Fromm
> wrote:
>> >
>> >Do you think bookstores may die out? They have become rare here in 
>> >Europe. In L.A. there is a nice used bookstore named "The Last 
>> >Bookstore"http://lastbookstorela.comWhen Biden has won and Covid is 
>> >gone next year I would like to visit California, including L.A. and
>San
>> >Francisco, before the last bookstore is gone.-J.

--
glen ⛧

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Re: [FRIAM] The last bookstore

[jon zingale]

Yeah, the technical bookstore on Burnside was really great. It was where I
spent my last three hours living in Portland (2007) reading Hatcher's
'Algebraic Topology'. Last I was in Oregon (2014), I was sad to see it gone,
but then someone directed me that the technical books all moved to the main
branch. I walked the two blocks over and found a copy of Niven's
'Diophantine Approximations'.

In Santa Fe, we have a couple of bookstores that I like a lot. Big Star is
really great for fiction and browsing in general. Op Cit is where I like to
go for technical books (math/drawing). Op Cit moved a number of times since
I moved here in 2013, but now it is located in De Vargas Mall, where it is a
couple of storefronts down from an antique pen store. It is kind of amazing
to see a non-corporate bookstore in a mall.




--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

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Re: [FRIAM] The last bookstore

[Roger Critchlow]

I first visited Powell's the summer they opened in Portland.  Old man
Powell gave me work cleaning up another property he owned.

Their current location was long notable for the regularly scheduled reek of
the Blitz-Weinhard brewery located on the block to the west, but it's since
been gentrified.

The original Powell's is in Hyde Park, near the University of Chicago, it
was a let down when I finally got there.

But The Seminary Coop, https://www.semcoop.com/, is a must visit in
Chicago.  Check out the Front Table on their website.

-- rec --

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 10:24 AM ⛧ glen  wrote:

> They might. But I'm spending a good portion of my income at the local
> ones. If you're visiting book stores, you must visit this one. A whole city
> block, multiple floors:
> https://www.powells.com/
>
> And stop using Amazon. 8^D
>
>
> On September 5, 2020 6:53:38 AM PDT, Jochen Fromm 
> wrote:
> >
> >Do you think bookstores may die out? They have become rare here in
> >Europe. In L.A. there is a nice used bookstore named "The Last
> >Bookstore"http://lastbookstorela.comWhen Biden has won and Covid is
> >gone next year I would like to visit California, including L.A. and San
> >Francisco, before the last bookstore is gone.-J.
>
> --
> glen ⛧
>
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Re: [FRIAM] The last bookstore

[⛧ glen]

Hm. The tech store on Park and Burnside closed several years ago. Did they open 
another one?

We've got 3 (I think) here in Oly, one of which I've committed to joining as 
they change into a coop.

On September 5, 2020 7:36:07 AM PDT, Prof David West  
wrote:
>the block is just the main store - the computer/science/tech is in
>another building across the street.
>
>lots of small local bookstores. LA harder to find, but San Francisco
>plentiful.
>
>They will still be there in 2025 when you feel safe to visit the US.  
>
>davew
>
>On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, at 8:24 AM, ⛧ glen wrote:
>> They might. But I'm spending a good portion of my income at the local
>
>> ones. If you're visiting book stores, you must visit this one. A
>whole 
>> city block, multiple floors:
>> https://www.powells.com/
>> 
>> And stop using Amazon. 8^D
>> 
>> 
>> On September 5, 2020 6:53:38 AM PDT, Jochen Fromm
> wrote:
>> >
>> >Do you think bookstores may die out? They have become rare here in
>> >Europe. In L.A. there is a nice used bookstore named "The Last
>> >Bookstore"http://lastbookstorela.comWhen Biden has won and Covid is
>> >gone next year I would like to visit California, including L.A. and
>San
>> >Francisco, before the last bookstore is gone.-J.

-- 
glen ⛧

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Re: [FRIAM] The last bookstore

[⛧ glen]

They might. But I'm spending a good portion of my income at the local ones. If 
you're visiting book stores, you must visit this one. A whole city block, 
multiple floors:
https://www.powells.com/

And stop using Amazon. 8^D


On September 5, 2020 6:53:38 AM PDT, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
>Do you think bookstores may die out? They have become rare here in
>Europe. In L.A. there is a nice used bookstore named "The Last
>Bookstore"http://lastbookstorela.comWhen Biden has won and Covid is
>gone next year I would like to visit California, including L.A. and San
>Francisco, before the last bookstore is gone.-J.

-- 
glen ⛧

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[FRIAM] The last bookstore

[Jochen Fromm]

Do you think bookstores may die out? They have become rare here in Europe. In 
L.A. there is a nice used bookstore named "The Last 
Bookstore"http://lastbookstorela.comWhen Biden has won and Covid is gone next 
year I would like to visit California, including L.A. and San Francisco, before 
the last bookstore is gone.-J.-  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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