Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Sarbajit Roy]

Nick,

it would be politically insensitive / incorrect for me to discuss America's
blacks in the context of, say, white plantation owners, "field hands" and
"house n**s" (not sure if I can use this word online nowadays) which
parallel India's untouchables or Japan's  Burakumin /Eta societal
structures.

Was it coincidence that the USA's most deadly COVID hotspots were
unhygienic meat "packing" factories which employ mostly lower income blacks
/ browns who were compelled to either work or lose their meagre medical
benefits ?

Sarbajit



On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:04 AM  wrote:

> Sarbajit,
>
>
>
> I am both fascinated and baffled by your note, and hope you will say
> more.  I am in the thrall of a book entitled CASTE which makes a parallel
> between the untouchables and American blacks.  So for you to associate high
> class with untouchability is disorienting.  I gather that the notion of
> Untouchables as a low caste includes a notion of Non-touchers as a high
> class?  I suppose it must, but I had never really thought about that.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:41 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful)
> perspective on this from India.
>
> India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and
> deaths after the USA.
>
> However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called
> Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take
> clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually
> practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since
> Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we
> have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they
> cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even
> before microscopes were invented.
>
> The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children
> from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law
> in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or
> science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of
> India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that
> even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used
> them.
>
> The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones
> who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and
> also because India's government wanted them to die.
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563
>
>
> Sarbajit Roy
>
> New Delhi, India
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the
> science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is
> amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.
>
> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made
> the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it
> meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the
> vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds
> like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the
> hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be
> tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt.
> Which is a shame.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have
> sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It
> must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is
> here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.
> If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply
> refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't
> need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting
> allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No
> shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely
> irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a
> gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.
>
> Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in
> the door, even if they don'

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[thompnickson2]

Sarbajit, 

 

I am both fascinated and baffled by your note, and hope you will say more.  I 
am in the thrall of a book entitled CASTE which makes a parallel between the 
untouchables and American blacks.  So for you to associate high class with 
untouchability is disorienting.  I gather that the notion of Untouchables as a 
low caste includes a notion of Non-touchers as a high class?  I suppose it 
must, but I had never really thought about that.  

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:41 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

 

Hi

I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) 
perspective on this from India.

India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and deaths 
after the USA.

However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called Adi 
Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take clinically 
unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually practice an 
ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since Brahmins are 
traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we have known about 
virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they cause infection and 
disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even before microscopes were 
invented. 

The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children from 
infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law in India. 
And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or science, I 
was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of India's Armed 
Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that even the metal 
cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used them.

The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones who are 
fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and also because 
India's government wanted them to die. 
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563


Sarbajit Roy

New Delhi, India



 

 

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the science and 
tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is amazingly cool 
what people can do what we decide to do so.

you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made the 
vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it meant to 
map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the vaccine was. Then 
I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds like that's the 
opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the hear: this was made 
using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be tested outside of labs 
until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame.

 

 

 

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It must 
happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is here 
again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.  If 
enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to 
patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a 
mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, 
getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No shirt, no shoes, no 
vaccination, no service.

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
To: friam@redfish.com  
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot 
wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.

Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the 
door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest would 
require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that 
govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.

Taking a look at this site: 
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The 
actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid 
patients. The covid patients are simply demonstra

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Sarbajit Roy]

Hi

I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful)
perspective on this from India.

India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and
deaths after the USA.

However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called
Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take
clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually
practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since
Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we
have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they
cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even
before microscopes were invented.

The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children
from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law
in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or
science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of
India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that
even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used
them.

The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones who
are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and also
because India's government wanted them to die.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563

Sarbajit Roy
New Delhi, India




On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the
> science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is
> amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.
> you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made
> the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it
> meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the
> vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds
> like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the
> hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be
> tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt.
> Which is a shame.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have
>> sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It
>> must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is
>> here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.
>> If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply
>> refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't
>> need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting
>> allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No
>> shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>
>> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is
>> largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious
>> with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or
>> not.
>>
>> Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks
>> in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you
>> suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect
>> the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.
>>
>> Taking a look at this site:
>> https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
>> it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought.
>> The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid
>> patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.
>>
>>
>> On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> > Will you consent to a vaccine?
>> >
>> > Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
>> > To: friam@redfish.com
>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>> >
>> > Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients.
>> (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm
>> sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular
>> problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to
>> lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning with
>> our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer
>> wasn't high enough.
>> >
>> > The smart t

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Gillian Densmore]

Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the science
and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is amazingly
cool what people can do what we decide to do so.
you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made
the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it
meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the
vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds
like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the
hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be
tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt.
Which is a shame.



On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have
> sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It
> must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is
> here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.
> If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply
> refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't
> need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting
> allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No
> shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
> That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely
> irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a
> gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.
>
> Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in
> the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest
> would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws
> that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.
>
> Taking a look at this site:
> https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
> it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The
> actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid
> patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.
>
>
> On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > Will you consent to a vaccine?
> >
> > Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
> > To: friam@redfish.com
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> >
> > Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients.
> (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm
> sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular
> problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to
> lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning with
> our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer
> wasn't high enough.
> >
> > The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and
> take care of both covid patients and regular people.
> >
> >
> > On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let
> them in.
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
> >> To: friam@redfish.com
> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> >>
> >> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal,
> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us
> or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.
> >>
> >> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa
> are rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig
> in and be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more
> committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out
> there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a
> result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.
> >>
> >> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our
> attention on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow
> beating the anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and
> the reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.
>
>
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
> 

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It must 
happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is here 
again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.  If 
enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to 
patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a 
mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, 
getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No shirt, no shoes, no 
vaccination, no service.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot 
wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.

Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the 
door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest would 
require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that 
govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.

Taking a look at this site: 
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The 
actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid 
patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.


On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Will you consent to a vaccine?  
> 
> Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last 
> I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's 
> location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of 
> whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little 
> too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this 
> fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough.
> 
> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take 
> care of both covid patients and regular people.
> 
> 
> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let them 
>> in.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>
>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, 
>> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or 
>> who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.
>>
>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are 
>> rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and 
>> be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad 
>> infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there 
>> protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, 
>> they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.
>>
>> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention 
>> on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the 
>> anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary 
>> tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.
>>
>>
>> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.


--
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot 
wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.

Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the 
door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest would 
require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that 
govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.

Taking a look at this site: 
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The 
actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid 
patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.


On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Will you consent to a vaccine?  
> 
> Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last 
> I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's 
> location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of 
> whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little 
> too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this 
> fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough.
> 
> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take 
> care of both covid patients and regular people.
> 
> 
> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let them 
>> in.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>
>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, 
>> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or 
>> who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.
>>
>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are 
>> rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and 
>> be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad 
>> infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there 
>> protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, 
>> they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.
>>
>> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention 
>> on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the 
>> anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary 
>> tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.
>>
>>
>> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.


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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

Will you consent to a vaccine?  

Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.  

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last I 
heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's 
location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of whom 
delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little too 
much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this fairly tiny 
bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough.

The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take 
care of both covid patients and regular people.


On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let them in.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, 
> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or 
> who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.
> 
> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are 
> rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and 
> be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad 
> infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there 
> protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, 
> they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.
> 
> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention 
> on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the 
> anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary 
> tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.
> 
> 
> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.
> 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last I 
heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's 
location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of whom 
delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little too 
much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this fairly tiny 
bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough.

The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take 
care of both covid patients and regular people.


On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let them in.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, 
> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or 
> who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.
> 
> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are 
> rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and 
> be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad 
> infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there 
> protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, 
> they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.
> 
> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention 
> on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the 
> anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary 
> tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.
> 
> 
> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.
> 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let them in.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, everyday 
thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or who's 
against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.

You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are 
rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and be 
more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad 
infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there protesting 
mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, they're 
anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.

Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention on 
increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the 
anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary 
tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.


On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.


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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[thompnickson2]

Thanks.  Nicely done, Dr. Steelman,

In my 4 decades with diabetes, I have lived through (and mostly ignored) 4 
different medical fads, all demanding,  all diminishing quality and spontaneity 
of life, and all ultimately determined to be nugatory, or even damaging.  Why 
wouldn't a wise patient be skeptical about fad 5.0? If Peirce is right, the 
correct regimen is that upon which they will converge in the very long run, if 
they ever do converge.  No reason to believe I will be running that far.  And 
of course, they may never converge?  Truth is a rare commodity in a universe 
that is mostly random.

So why do I care, if I am ignoring the fads?  Well, because I honor them with 
my guilt.   Why do I bother to do that?  I have no idea. 

N



Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 12:04 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Maybe I can steelman it, since I have so many personal relationships with 
anti-vax people. 

When I look around at the world, I see a clear difference between those people 
like me and those people who seem very different from me. Interacting with the 
people who are very different is stressful and time consuming. For example, 
explaining to my oncologist that it's very difficult for me to follow the diet 
she recommends, she being a very petite Asian, me being a 180 lb white dude who 
needs to be strong enough to pick up a 900 lb motorcycle when I drop it. Even 
beyond the cultural differences between us, there are blatant physiological and 
day-to-day context differences.

These tiny differences are easy to let roll off, unless someone chooses to dig 
in their heels and make a stink about it. When someone, particular an 
*authority* like my oncologist, digs in and makes a stink about some 
"suggestion" they make on how to live my life, I get irritated, which 
eventually grows into anger. I'm also reflective enough to know that her 
recommendation is Correct, True, right, proper. But when I reflect like that, I 
might become disappointed in myself, squeezing my fat in the mirror or 
whatever. So the anger can turn to insecure self criticism. Or it can simply 
seethe and fester into resentment and distancing from her *and* her kind. 
Neither is a good outcome.

This can go on for decades ... very smart people who I tend to trust, want to 
trust, lead to nothing but resentment or self criticism. Why would I continue 
to do that? Why continue to engage?

Then some distant "authority" comes to me with rhetoric that sounds very 
similar to that of my oncologist ... snooty, know-it-all, "advice" or 
"mandates" for what I should be doing in order to be a moral person. Well, 
screw them! Not only have I lived for decades as I am, without being a 
vegetarian, without being at some sort of "optimal weight", without taking 
Vitamins every day, etc. Not only that. But I also read things from fairly 
reputable sources that simply contradict what they're telling me! Maybe, rather 
than vegetarianism, I should eat more animal protein and less carbs to get my 
fat % down? Obviously, these authorities don't know everything.

The more they dig in, the more it pushes me to dig in. The more emphatically 
you are pro-vaccine, the more emphatically I become anti-vaccine. Reason and 
reasonableness leaves the building.


On 8/24/21 6:37 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> What can possibly poses people to have a GD tantrum about vaccines.  The 
> cynical of me thinks it's basically a tantrum mixed with deranged and 
> dangerous levels of trolling. While the "Jedi" side er the small part wanting 
> to see the best of these GD raving lunatics. It's, frankly, baffled.
> The powers that be say put a GD mask on, and thank antivaxers.  What 
> is pissing me off and just straitup confusing the ever living *** me  
> is how does this thinking work? Rejecting a compound that'll keep you 
> healthy? For me: I (literally) couldn't get in line fast enough! I 
> think I broke my caregiver who, I wanted to drive me their just in 
> case. Meen while the other extreme are these people having GD tantrum. 
> It's like: here's something that'll help you not get this virus,its 
> free and you just need to get in a line. The first thing they say is: 
> omg! free? why that smacks of [something they read someplace]. And ma 
> freedoms
> 
> Can some please help me get just WTF these people are on, or how the hell 
> anything about how they think can possibly make any sense?


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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, everyday 
thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or who's 
against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.

You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are 
rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and be 
more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad 
infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there protesting 
mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, they're 
anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.

Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention on 
increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the 
anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary 
tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.


On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.


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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

< The more they dig in, the more it pushes me to dig in. The more emphatically 
you are pro-vaccine, the more emphatically I become anti-vaccine. Reason and 
reasonableness leaves the building. >

These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:04 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Maybe I can steelman it, since I have so many personal relationships with 
anti-vax people. 

When I look around at the world, I see a clear difference between those people 
like me and those people who seem very different from me. Interacting with the 
people who are very different is stressful and time consuming. For example, 
explaining to my oncologist that it's very difficult for me to follow the diet 
she recommends, she being a very petite Asian, me being a 180 lb white dude who 
needs to be strong enough to pick up a 900 lb motorcycle when I drop it. Even 
beyond the cultural differences between us, there are blatant physiological and 
day-to-day context differences.

These tiny differences are easy to let roll off, unless someone chooses to dig 
in their heels and make a stink about it. When someone, particular an 
*authority* like my oncologist, digs in and makes a stink about some 
"suggestion" they make on how to live my life, I get irritated, which 
eventually grows into anger. I'm also reflective enough to know that her 
recommendation is Correct, True, right, proper. But when I reflect like that, I 
might become disappointed in myself, squeezing my fat in the mirror or 
whatever. So the anger can turn to insecure self criticism. Or it can simply 
seethe and fester into resentment and distancing from her *and* her kind. 
Neither is a good outcome.

This can go on for decades ... very smart people who I tend to trust, want to 
trust, lead to nothing but resentment or self criticism. Why would I continue 
to do that? Why continue to engage?

Then some distant "authority" comes to me with rhetoric that sounds very 
similar to that of my oncologist ... snooty, know-it-all, "advice" or 
"mandates" for what I should be doing in order to be a moral person. Well, 
screw them! Not only have I lived for decades as I am, without being a 
vegetarian, without being at some sort of "optimal weight", without taking 
Vitamins every day, etc. Not only that. But I also read things from fairly 
reputable sources that simply contradict what they're telling me! Maybe, rather 
than vegetarianism, I should eat more animal protein and less carbs to get my 
fat % down? Obviously, these authorities don't know everything.

The more they dig in, the more it pushes me to dig in. The more emphatically 
you are pro-vaccine, the more emphatically I become anti-vaccine. Reason and 
reasonableness leaves the building.


On 8/24/21 6:37 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> What can possibly poses people to have a GD tantrum about vaccines.  The 
> cynical of me thinks it's basically a tantrum mixed with deranged and 
> dangerous levels of trolling. While the "Jedi" side er the small part wanting 
> to see the best of these GD raving lunatics. It's, frankly, baffled.
> The powers that be say put a GD mask on, and thank antivaxers.  What 
> is pissing me off and just straitup confusing the ever living *** me  
> is how does this thinking work? Rejecting a compound that'll keep you 
> healthy? For me: I (literally) couldn't get in line fast enough! I 
> think I broke my caregiver who, I wanted to drive me their just in 
> case. Meen while the other extreme are these people having GD tantrum. 
> It's like: here's something that'll help you not get this virus,its 
> free and you just need to get in a line. The first thing they say is: 
> omg! free? why that smacks of [something they read someplace]. And ma 
> freedoms
> 
> Can some please help me get just WTF these people are on, or how the hell 
> anything about how they think can possibly make any sense?


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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Maybe I can steelman it, since I have so many personal relationships with 
anti-vax people. 

When I look around at the world, I see a clear difference between those people 
like me and those people who seem very different from me. Interacting with the 
people who are very different is stressful and time consuming. For example, 
explaining to my oncologist that it's very difficult for me to follow the diet 
she recommends, she being a very petite Asian, me being a 180 lb white dude who 
needs to be strong enough to pick up a 900 lb motorcycle when I drop it. Even 
beyond the cultural differences between us, there are blatant physiological and 
day-to-day context differences.

These tiny differences are easy to let roll off, unless someone chooses to dig 
in their heels and make a stink about it. When someone, particular an 
*authority* like my oncologist, digs in and makes a stink about some 
"suggestion" they make on how to live my life, I get irritated, which 
eventually grows into anger. I'm also reflective enough to know that her 
recommendation is Correct, True, right, proper. But when I reflect like that, I 
might become disappointed in myself, squeezing my fat in the mirror or 
whatever. So the anger can turn to insecure self criticism. Or it can simply 
seethe and fester into resentment and distancing from her *and* her kind. 
Neither is a good outcome.

This can go on for decades ... very smart people who I tend to trust, want to 
trust, lead to nothing but resentment or self criticism. Why would I continue 
to do that? Why continue to engage?

Then some distant "authority" comes to me with rhetoric that sounds very 
similar to that of my oncologist ... snooty, know-it-all, "advice" or 
"mandates" for what I should be doing in order to be a moral person. Well, 
screw them! Not only have I lived for decades as I am, without being a 
vegetarian, without being at some sort of "optimal weight", without taking 
Vitamins every day, etc. Not only that. But I also read things from fairly 
reputable sources that simply contradict what they're telling me! Maybe, rather 
than vegetarianism, I should eat more animal protein and less carbs to get my 
fat % down? Obviously, these authorities don't know everything.

The more they dig in, the more it pushes me to dig in. The more emphatically 
you are pro-vaccine, the more emphatically I become anti-vaccine. Reason and 
reasonableness leaves the building.


On 8/24/21 6:37 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> What can possibly poses people to have a GD tantrum about vaccines.  The 
> cynical of me thinks it's basically a tantrum mixed with deranged and 
> dangerous levels of trolling. While the "Jedi" side er the small part wanting 
> to see the best of these GD raving lunatics. It's, frankly, baffled.
> The powers that be say put a GD mask on, and thank antivaxers.  What is 
> pissing me off and just straitup confusing the ever living *** me  is how 
> does this thinking work? Rejecting a compound that'll keep you healthy? For 
> me: I (literally) couldn't get in line fast enough! I think I broke my 
> caregiver who, I wanted to drive me their just in case. Meen while the other 
> extreme are these people having GD tantrum. It's like: here's something 
> that'll help you not get this virus,its free and you just need to get in a 
> line. The first thing they say is: omg! free? why that smacks of [something 
> they read someplace]. And ma freedoms
> 
> Can some please help me get just WTF these people are on, or how the hell 
> anything about how they think can possibly make any sense?


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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[thompnickson2]

Pieter, 

 

People are always tasking me to find examples of where dualistic thinking leads 
us astray.  I think you have one, here.  The idea of self deception (or any 
deception, for that matter) implies that there is a Truth of the matter outside 
all experience, and knowing that Truth is adaptive.  But if there is no truth 
outside of experience, then the only truth we have is in the form of 
predictions that “come true”, if you see what I mean.  Now, predictions can 
come true in different time frames, long and short, and those time frames 
relate to the persistence of a type of organism depending on the life-span of 
the organism.   Coming true means something quite different to a mouse and an 
elephant.   Now my guy, Peirce, has defined Truth as that upon which belief 
will converge in the very long run.  Where there is no ultimate convergence of 
opinion, in Peirce’s word, there just is no  Truth.  But no organism is  around 
for that asymptote to be reached, so selection is insensitive to it.  So, 
Pragmatically (and pragmatically, as well) we are left with “truths”,  those 
consistencies in experience that endure long enough to have an effect on 
selection. 

 

Thanks, Pieter.  By god that was a New Thought!  Thanks for leading me to it. 

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 3:13 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

 

Gillian,

My take on your question of how this thinking, of being an antivaxer, works?

For me, the key lies in understanding human behavior. I know I'm waltzing on 
very thin ice because there are others in this group who have already forgotten 
what I still have to learn about human behavior , so I'm prepared to be 
severely humbled.

This Friam group is excluded of course, but for the rest of humanity, humans 
make decisions subconsciously and then rationalise their decisions with logic. 
Their subconscious minds do not care about logic or whether it makes sense at 
all, it's just about emotions. 

One of the books I'm currently reading is Making Sense of World History by Rick 
Szostakt and I can't verbalise it better than the quote from the book:
"Humans have an incredible capacity for self-deception. Our subconscious 
thoughts can guide us to act in ways that are cowardly, malicious, or jealous 
even if we would consciously disdain cowardice, malice and jealousy. Why did a 
mental capacity for self-deception evolve in humans? One theory is that 
self-deception aids us in other-deception. Humans have been selected for 
cooperation, and therefore selected to give and observe cues regarding 
dishonesty. As discussed above, we will feel guilty for lying (that is, 
violating a cultural value favouring honesty), and display this guilt 
physically. Human cooperation would be difficult if we lacked any ability to 
discern when others were lying. While cooperation depends on some degree of 
confidence in the honesty of others, individual success can nethertheless rely 
on some ability to cheat. In the complex evolution of human beings, then, we 
can expect selection pressure for both (detection of) honesty and dishonesty. 
Difficulty in consciously lying would encourage the cooperation on which human 
societies depend. Ability to lie subconsciously would be individually 
advantageous, and the limits it imposes on human cooperation might not prevent 
collaboration in hunting or gathering or agreeing on group decisions."

I'm not condoning the antivaxers. Personally I consider vaccination technology 
one of humankind's greatest medical inventions ever, and I'm also super excited 
about the potential of mRNA vaccination technology in more effectively fighting 
future viruses. I'm merely trying to explain illogical behavior, that's what 
you asked, not so? 

Pieter

 

On Wed, 25 Aug 2021 at 03:39, Gillian Densmore mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com> > wrote:

What can possibly poses people to have a GD tantrum about vaccines.  The 
cynical of me thinks it's basically a tantrum mixed with deranged and dangerous 
levels of trolling. While the "Jedi" side er the small part wanting to see the 
best of these GD raving lunatics. It's, frankly, baffled.

The powers that be say put a GD mask on, and thank antivaxers.  What is pissing 
me off and just straitup confusing the ever living *** me  is how does this 
thinking work? Rejecting a compound that'll keep you healthy? For me: I 
(literally) couldn't get in line fast enough! I think I broke my caregiver who, 
I wanted to drive me their just in case. Meen while the other extreme are these 
people having GD tantrum. It's like: here's something that'll help you not get 
this virus,its free and you just need to get in a line. The first thing they 
say is: omg! free? why that sm

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[thompnickson2]

O!  Carl.  Corvids teaching?  Let me know about that if you stumble on it 
again.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Carl Tollander
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 12:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

 

So, several avenues present.

 

Import (bee visa) Japanese bees to teach American bees.

 

Import (bee immigration) Japanese bees to supplant American bees.

 

Send American bees to Japan to study Japanese bee methods in context.

 

All this assumes some notion of bee culture transfer as opposed to 
genetics...something recently about corvids teaching...if so, well

 

Birds do it.

 

C

 

 

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021, 22:15 David Eric Smith mailto:desm...@santafe.edu> > wrote:

> Note: Some beehives have a defense, they clump around the scout in a buzzing 
> ball, and though many in the ball lose their heads, collectively they raise 
> the temperature of the hornet scout and "cook" it.   It doesn't release 
> enough pheromone such that the other hornets follow up.

All, do find internet videos on this.  There are several.  I think I sent them 
around some months ago, and couldn’t bring myself to spam again with them.

I sent them to friends with titles like “lesson in democracy”.

Japanese bees can do this.  American (naturalized European) bees cannot.  This 
all seems very depressing, in addition to its real damage.

Eric


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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Roger Critchlow]

https://www.quantamagazine.org/mental-phenomena-dont-map-into-the-brain-as-expected-20210824/

A quanta article titled The Brain Doesn’t Think the Way You Think It Does

Joseph LeDoux
>  is a
> neuroscientist at NYU known for his pioneering work on the amygdala, which
> is often referred to as the fear center of the brain. But that framing, he
> says, is very wrong — and very harmful. “I kept being introduced over the
> years as someone who discovered how feelings of fear come out of the
> amygdala,” he said. “But I would always kind of flinch when I would be
> introduced this way. Finally, I had enough.”



> LeDoux has spent the past decade emphasizing that the amygdala isn’t
> involved in generating fear at all. Fear, he points out, is a cognitive
> interpretation of a situation, a subjective experience tied up in memory
> and other processes. The psychological phenomena that some people
> experience as fear may be experienced as something very different by
> others. Research shows that the feeling of fear arises in the prefrontal
> cortex and related brain areas.



> The amygdala, on the other hand, is involved with processing and
> responding to threats — an ancient, subconscious behavioral and
> physiological mechanism. “The evidence shows that it’s not always fear that
> causes the behavior,” LeDoux said.



> Calling the amygdala the fear center might seem innocuous, he continued,
> but “then the amygdala inherits all the semantic baggage of fear.” That
> mistake can distort attempts to develop medications, including those aiming
> to reduce anxiety. When potential treatments are tested in animals under
> stress, if the animals behave less timidly or show less physiological
> arousal, it’s usually interpreted as a reduction in anxiety or fear levels.
> But a medication can change someone’s behavioral or physiological responses
> — those outputs of the amygdala — without curing feelings of anxiety,
> LeDoux said.

“The whole field is suffering because of this confusion,” he said.



> Similar problems occur in other areas, he added, such as studies of
> perception, where the physical processing of the sensory stimulus and the
> conscious experience of it are often bundled together. In both cases,
> LeDoux believes “these need to be pulled apart.”


 -- rec --
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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[David Eric Smith]

> On Aug 25, 2021, at 12:03 PM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> I apparently accidently deleted the entire body of this message before 
> sending.  Ah, well.  Let’s just stipulate that it was excellent and solved 
> all problems

Of that I have no doubt.

> and then forget about it, eh? 


To close, I should say a few things:

1. I apologize for being obnoxious.  I am okay ribbing you, but do not want or 
intend to insult you.  And I probably don’t intend to drive you up the wall.

2. I too think this is not a difference of motive, but something about a 
difference of style.  When I was a kid, I found strong kitchen magnets 
fascinating the first time.  If you insist on pushing them together with the 
poles that don’t want to go, the closer you push them, the most strongly they 
squeeze out the side.  The tactile feedback is luscious, like I am told popping 
bubble wrap is for some people.  Really, even better than that.  People’s minds 
can be like that too.  I don’t understand why, or even what it consists of.  
Something about structures of thought, or whatever “style” means.

3. Geriatric troll goes on my list of T-shirts to have printed.

4. I always remember that this is your professional domain, whereas I don’t 
know anything about it.  As long as you know I am always aware of that….

5. You are a cleaner writer than I am, which I think is on the topic here.  You 
often try to cut directly to the point, and I read it as oversimplifying or 
conflating.  That could be part of the pattern.

But I think your final suggestion is a good one.

Many thanks,

Eric



>  
> N
>  
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> 
>  
> From: thompnicks...@gmail.com  
> mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 8:54 PM
> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'  >
> Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Eternal questions
>  
> EricS,
>  
> Can I answer quickly because I want to say something but am already late to 
> fix dinner?  
>  
>  
>  
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> 
>  
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
> Behalf Of David Eric Smith
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 5:03 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  >
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions
>  
> So, good, but too many dimensions projected onto too few axes:
>  
> 
>> On Aug 24, 2021, at 11:48 PM, > > > > wrote:
>>  
>> But let me turn Glen’s steel-man obligation around.  Aren’t you made uneasy 
>> when people claim that to be private that which is plainly present in their 
>> behavior?  
>  
> This seems to me like a conflation, chosen to make an orderly argument 
> impossible because a skew frame precludes it.
>  
> [NST===><===nst] This is a clear example of the kind of thing we are talking 
> about here.  You attribute to me an intention  to prevent orderly argument.  
> Given that I deny any such intention, and rather experience myself as trying 
> to reach a point of agreement, or agreement to disagree, if necessary, what 
> precisely are we talking about?  I think you see in my behavior a pattern of 
> distraction and dissembling directed toward the very thing I think I am 
> working toward.  First and foremost, is that an assertion about my brain?  I 
> don’t think so.  I think it’s an assertion about my behavior. 
>  
> I am caught in a bind, because my behaviorism requires me to take that 
> assertion seriously.  It places me in the position of a geriatric troll, 
> which I don’t want to be.  But where do I get to point out that you use my 
> way of understanding intentions against my way of understanding intentions.   
>  
> I also want to point out that the pragmatic implications of being IN a state 
> are quite different from those of having a state inside.  I have admit that 
> both statements that something in the organization is mediating  the relation 
> that we call “the state”, but that mediator is not the state.  The state is 
> the state.Nothing like a good tautology to end angument . 
>  
> I need to think more about markov chains.
>  
> N
>  
>  
> If people say they are “in an emotional state”, glossed as “have an emotion”, 
> I don’t conflate that with saying their emotional state is “private” in the 
> sense of “uninferrable from their behavior” th

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[David Eric Smith]

> Note: Some beehives have a defense, they clump around the scout in a buzzing 
> ball, and though many in the ball lose their heads, collectively they raise 
> the temperature of the hornet scout and "cook" it.   It doesn't release 
> enough pheromone such that the other hornets follow up.

All, do find internet videos on this.  There are several.  I think I sent them 
around some months ago, and couldn’t bring myself to spam again with them.

I sent them to friends with titles like “lesson in democracy”.

Japanese bees can do this.  American (naturalized European) bees cannot.  This 
all seems very depressing, in addition to its real damage.

Eric


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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Pieter Steenekamp]

Gillian,

My take on your question of how this thinking, of being an antivaxer, works?

For me, the key lies in understanding human behavior. I know I'm waltzing
on very thin ice because there are others in this group who have already
forgotten what I still have to learn about human behavior , so I'm prepared
to be severely humbled.

This Friam group is excluded of course, but for the rest of humanity,
humans make decisions subconsciously and then rationalise their decisions
with logic. Their subconscious minds do not care about logic or whether it
makes sense at all, it's just about emotions.

One of the books I'm currently reading is Making Sense of World History by
Rick Szostakt and I can't verbalise it better than the quote from the book:
"Humans have an incredible capacity for self-deception. Our subconscious
thoughts can guide us to act in ways that are cowardly, malicious, or
jealous even if we would consciously disdain cowardice, malice and
jealousy. Why did a mental capacity for self-deception evolve in humans?
One theory is that self-deception aids us in other-deception. Humans have
been selected for cooperation, and therefore selected to give and observe
cues regarding dishonesty. As discussed above, we will feel guilty for
lying (that is, violating a cultural value favouring honesty), and display
this guilt physically. Human cooperation would be difficult if we lacked
any ability to discern when others were lying. While cooperation depends on
some degree of confidence in the honesty of others, individual success can
nethertheless rely on some ability to cheat. In the complex evolution of
human beings, then, we can expect selection pressure for both (detection
of) honesty and dishonesty. Difficulty in consciously lying would encourage
the cooperation on which human societies depend. Ability to lie
subconsciously would be individually advantageous, and the limits it
imposes on human cooperation might not prevent collaboration in hunting or
gathering or agreeing on group decisions."

I'm not condoning the antivaxers. Personally I consider vaccination
technology one of humankind's greatest medical inventions ever, and I'm
also super excited about the potential of mRNA vaccination technology in
more effectively fighting future viruses. I'm merely trying to explain
illogical behavior, that's what you asked, not so?

Pieter

On Wed, 25 Aug 2021 at 03:39, Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> What can possibly poses people to have a GD tantrum about vaccines.
> The cynical of me thinks it's basically a tantrum mixed with deranged and
> dangerous levels of trolling. While the "Jedi" side er the small part
> wanting to see the best of these GD raving lunatics. It's, frankly, baffled.
> The powers that be say put a GD mask on, and thank antivaxers.  What is
> pissing me off and just straitup confusing the ever living *** me  is how
> does this thinking work? Rejecting a compound that'll keep you healthy? For
> me: I (literally) couldn't get in line fast enough! I think I broke my
> caregiver who, I wanted to drive me their just in case. Meen while the
> other extreme are these people having GD tantrum. It's like: here's
> something that'll help you not get this virus,its free and you just need to
> get in a line. The first thing they say is: omg! free? why that smacks of
> [something they read someplace]. And ma freedoms
>
> Can some please help me get just WTF these people are on, or how the hell
> anything about how they think can possibly make any sense?
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