Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Frank Wimberly]

What??  You right brain people are driving me nuts!  😁

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:22 AM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 5:00 PM Frank Wimberly 
>> wrote:
>> I want to clarify what a dual space is.
>
>
>  The domain of dual.space can be mapped to any other domain  :-)
>
> ___
> stephen.gue...@simtable.com 
> CEO, Simtable  http://www.simtable.com
> 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
> office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828
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> z oom.simtable.com
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 5:00 PM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
>> I want to clarify what a dual space is.  I think it is much more specific
>> than Jon thinks it is.  A vector space is a linear  space which consists of
>> vectors for which addition and scalar multiplication are defined.  Scalars
>> are usually real numbers but may elements of other fields such a complex
>> numbers.
>>
>> An important example of a (finite dimensional) vector space is the set of
>> n-tuples of real numbers.  A linear functional on a vector space is a
>> function defined on the set of vectors the into the set of scalars.  This
>> is a (0,1) tensor on the space.  The set of linear functionals is also a
>> vector space called the dual space.  The vectors of the original space
>> define linear functionals on the dual space as follows:  v(f) = f(v).
>>
>> The only other dual space of which I am aware of is the dual topological
>> space which Google tells me is
>>
>> In functional analysis and related areas of mathematics a dual topology
>> is a *locally convex topology on a dual* pair, two vector spaces with a
>> bilinear form defined on them, so that one vector space becomes the
>> continuous dual of the other space.
>>
>> I am being very succinct and may not remember these definitions
>> correctly.  Jon may be speaking "metaphorically" when he talks about
>> pheromone trails being duals of ants.
>>
>> Anyway...
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 1:05 PM Jon Zingale  wrote:
>>
>>> """
>>> The problem for me with this view is that I don't understand how seeing
>>> pheromone as 'organizing itself in space' is intuitively useful.
>>> """
>>>
>>> I suppose that even if I didn't find this view *useful*, which I do and
>>> will attempt to explain momentarily, I continue to find that it offers
>>> a theoretical completeness that I find aesthetically compelling. Much
>>> like magnetism and electricity can appear as distinct phenomena or as
>>> two aspects of an integrated whole, stigmergy points to a similar duality
>>> between agent and environment, another integrated whole. Lifting to such
>>> a perspective offers insights into a class of possible implementations,
>>> all preserving the underlying dynamics.
>>>
>>> For instance, when attempting to reason about the ant-pheromone system,
>>> I find it useful to view the ants as inefficient *raster-like* update
>>> to the state, but of course one could also choose a less brownian,
>>> less resource-limited or less discrete approach. For instance, I believe
>>> it makes the analysis more clear if we instead picture a continuum of
>>> ants acting on the space and begin with pheromone of very little effect.
>>> Then slowly turning up the potency, we begin to see the pheromone
>>> organize and as a side-effect (and as an epiphenomenon from my view)
>>> the ants follow suit. To view the ants as an implementation detail, for
>>> me, yields clarity into the problem, while the pheromone takes the role
>>> of first class citizens in the ABM.
>>>
>>> """
>>> Toward the end, you wrote, "I only meant to emphasize that stigmergy
>>> appears to me as a local concept." I'm not sure what that means.
>>> """
>>>
>>> By local, I mean local as it often manifests in mathematics, but I
>>> gather that you would prefer a different tack. Here I am referring to a
>>> pair of related concepts for me:
>>>
>>> 1. Excision of glider's from Conway's game.
>>>
>>> 2. Characterization of subjectivities (one's subjective experience, say)
>>> relative to objectivity.
>>>
>>> When one watches Conway's game unfold, it is challenging to maintain the
>>> view that gliders are not agents but simply a local patch of board state
>>> in the process of updating itself as a whole. The ease with which we
>>> perceive gliders as agents facilitated the discovery of "glider guns",
>>> and ultimately the construction of assemblages of "glider guns" to make
>>> logic gates. Further, there is a smallest possible toroidal board such
>>> that one can have a glider (and only a glider) walk along the surface
>>> forever. The relation of this smallest board to any other board state is
>>> (in my view) an analogy, an inclusion relation.
>>>
>>> Localization, 

Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Marcus Daniels]

It is hard to find the motivation to invest much in category theory when the 
practical considerations are left as an exercise to the reader.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2021 4:28 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

Focusing the application of ant foraging, what is the scalar product of an ant? 
 What is the sum of two ants.  Same questions for pheromone trails.  If the 
answer is that scalar product and sum are not general enough.  What are the 
homomorphisms of ants and pheromone trails?
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 5:12 PM Jon Zingale 
mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I want to clarify what a dual space is.  I think it is much more general

than Frank thinks it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjoint_functors

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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Jon Zingale]

"""

It is hard to find the motivation to invest much in category theory

when the practical considerations are left as an exercise to the reader.

"""

... but not that hard:

https://github.com/jonzingale/Haskell/blob/master/blinky/blinky_image/Comonad.hs

Now if you will excuse me, I feel like I am being unjustly bullied.

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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Marcus Daniels]

I mean, a dual has a specific meaning in linear programming.Looks like that 
are some operations on 1-d and 2-d grids?

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Jon Zingale
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 7:53 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

"""

It is hard to find the motivation to invest much in category theory

when the practical considerations are left as an exercise to the reader.

"""
... but not that hard:

https://github.com/jonzingale/Haskell/blob/master/blinky/blinky_image/Comonad.hs

Now if you will excuse me, I feel like I am being unjustly bullied.

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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Jon Zingale]

Here, I am calculating 1 and 2 dimensional cellular automata as comonadic
structures (dual to monadic structures*). Category theory put directly into
practice. In particular, it took me some thought to build the notion of
fiber and connection between fibers to generalize comonadically to 2D
arrays.

* Yes, dual in a technical sense.

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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Jon Zingale]

Also, for those that are unfamiliar with how adjoint functors come into the
picture, here is something I wrote for my website on adjoint functors for
dynamical systems:

https://jonzingale.github.io/dynamical-monads/dynamical.html

The graphs produced directly via this code:
https://github.com/jonzingale/jonzingale.github.io/tree/master/dynamical-monads/hs

Now, for those that have read and did the exercises in the Arbib and Manes
classic "Arrows, Structures and Functors", you know that certain
optimization problems like reachability and observability are dual
concepts. Starting around page 100

"""
Inspection of 9 and 12 may suggest to the astute reader that *reachability*
and *observability* are *dual* concepts, in the categorical sense of the
term. This is indeed so -- and for a class of machines broader than the
sequential machines
"""

So come on, let's act as if we can all still read and treat each other with
some amount of grace. I have quite a lot to do this week, I would prefer
not to be bullied. Since Frank *does* know me, he should know better.

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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Marcus Daniels]

Fine, but dual of a monad has a sort of trivial meaning; like a nicer “run” 
function.   Whereas a continuous relaxation of a discrete optimization problem 
has semantics which are useful for accelerating an optimization.
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Jon Zingale
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 8:17 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

Here, I am calculating 1 and 2 dimensional cellular automata as comonadic 
structures (dual to monadic structures*). Category theory put directly into 
practice. In particular, it took me some thought to build the notion of fiber 
and connection between fibers to generalize comonadically to 2D arrays.

* Yes, dual in a technical sense.

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Re: [FRIAM] Thread Bust: WAS: stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Barry MacKichan]

You might want to try https://www.wolfram.com/language/. This could work 
since the “programming” needed is minima (given that you have the 
interpretating program). See also 
https://www.wolfram.com/language/11/new-visualization-domains/plot-cellular-automata.html. 
There seem to be free versions of some of the programs and, if not, 
there are usually student prices.


A totally off-thread anecdote. At some academic conference where both 
Wolfram and we were exhibiting, the Wolfram exhibit featured his new 
(then) book, ‘A New Kind of Science’, very hefty at something like 
1000 pages, and attractive graphics on the cover. I went up to their 
booth to thumb through the book. Every page was blank. I hear it 
eventually got fleshed out.


—Barry

On 25 Oct 2021, at 1:37, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:


Hey, Ed,



Perhaps you are the person to answer this question:  I have snared 
both of my grandchildren in CA #30, the -son because he is interested 
in pattern formation in regenerating planaria and the -daughter 
because she likes really neat stuff.  I would like to give them simple 
programs so they could generate any one of the 256 rules and see the 
consequences of them.   I thought I would find several readily at 
hand, but what I did was a serious of sites which schooled me to write 
such a program myself.  I am too old for that.  Do you know of any I 
could email to my -children?  It is the first time in years that I 
have actually caught their fancy with something, so it would really 
make me happy.




Thanks,



Nick



Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/




From: Friam  On Behalf Of Angel Edward
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2021 5:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 


Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development



In an affine space (vector space + point), an ant’s position is a 
point and a path or trail can be described by vectors.




__

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory 
(ARTS Lab)

Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)
edward.an...@gmail.com 
505-453-4944 (cell)   
http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel






On Oct 24, 2021, at 5:27 PM, Frank Wimberly  > wrote:




Focusing the application of ant foraging, what is the scalar product 
of an ant?  What is the sum of two ants.  Same questions for pheromone 
trails.  If the answer is that scalar product and sum are not general 
enough.  What are the homomorphisms of ants and pheromone trails?


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM



On Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 5:12 PM Jon Zingale  > wrote:


I want to clarify what a dual space is.  I think it is much more 
general
than Frank thinks it is: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjoint_functors



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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Barry MacKichan]

>
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 5:00 PM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
> I want to clarify what a dual space is.


 The domain of dual.space can be mapped to any other domain  :-)

___
stephen.gue...@simtable.com 
CEO, Simtable  http://www.simtable.com
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828
twitter: @simtable
z oom.simtable.com


On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 5:00 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> I want to clarify what a dual space is.  I think it is much more specific
> than Jon thinks it is.  A vector space is a linear  space which consists of
> vectors for which addition and scalar multiplication are defined.  Scalars
> are usually real numbers but may elements of other fields such a complex
> numbers.
>
> An important example of a (finite dimensional) vector space is the set of
> n-tuples of real numbers.  A linear functional on a vector space is a
> function defined on the set of vectors the into the set of scalars.  This
> is a (0,1) tensor on the space.  The set of linear functionals is also a
> vector space called the dual space.  The vectors of the original space
> define linear functionals on the dual space as follows:  v(f) = f(v).
>
> The only other dual space of which I am aware of is the dual topological
> space which Google tells me is
>
> In functional analysis and related areas of mathematics a dual topology is
> a *locally convex topology on a dual* pair, two vector spaces with a
> bilinear form defined on them, so that one vector space becomes the
> continuous dual of the other space.
>
> I am being very succinct and may not remember these definitions
> correctly.  Jon may be speaking "metaphorically" when he talks about
> pheromone trails being duals of ants.
>
> Anyway...
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 1:05 PM Jon Zingale  wrote:
>
>> """
>> The problem for me with this view is that I don't understand how seeing
>> pheromone as 'organizing itself in space' is intuitively useful.
>> """
>>
>> I suppose that even if I didn't find this view *useful*, which I do and
>> will attempt to explain momentarily, I continue to find that it offers
>> a theoretical completeness that I find aesthetically compelling. Much
>> like magnetism and electricity can appear as distinct phenomena or as
>> two aspects of an integrated whole, stigmergy points to a similar duality
>> between agent and environment, another integrated whole. Lifting to such
>> a perspective offers insights into a class of possible implementations,
>> all preserving the underlying dynamics.
>>
>> For instance, when attempting to reason about the ant-pheromone system,
>> I find it useful to view the ants as inefficient *raster-like* update
>> to the state, but of course one could also choose a less brownian,
>> less resource-limited or less discrete approach. For instance, I believe
>> it makes the analysis more clear if we instead picture a continuum of
>> ants acting on the space and begin with pheromone of very little effect.
>> Then slowly turning up the potency, we begin to see the pheromone
>> organize and as a side-effect (and as an epiphenomenon from my view)
>> the ants follow suit. To view the ants as an implementation detail, for
>> me, yields clarity into the problem, while the pheromone takes the role
>> of first class citizens in the ABM.
>>
>> """
>> Toward the end, you wrote, "I only meant to emphasize that stigmergy
>> appears to me as a local concept." I'm not sure what that means.
>> """
>>
>> By local, I mean local as it often manifests in mathematics, but I
>> gather that you would prefer a different tack. Here I am referring to a
>> pair of related concepts for me:
>>
>> 1. Excision of glider's from Conway's game.
>>
>> 2. Characterization of subjectivities (one's subjective experience, say)
>> relative to objectivity.
>>
>> When one watches Conway's game unfold, it is challenging to maintain the
>> view that gliders are not agents but simply a local patch of board state
>> in the process of updating itself as a whole. The ease with which we
>> perceive gliders as agents facilitated the discovery of "glider guns",
>> and ultimately the construction of assemblages of "glider guns" to make
>> logic gates. Further, there is a smallest possible toroidal board such
>> that one can have a glider (and only a glider) walk along the surface
>> forever. The relation of this smallest board to any other board state is
>> (in my view) an analogy, an inclusion relation.
>>
>> Localization, here for me, is a way of bracketing the baby from the
>> bathwater while continuing to acknowledge that the meaning of both is
>> in relation to a whole. There have been a number of discussions on this
>> forum (and quite a few papers by its participants) where work is done
>> to emphasize the complications associat

Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Barry MacKichan]

(Sorry about the previous message that got sent before I wrote it)

On 25 Oct 2021, at 11:36, Barry MacKichan wrote:

> The domain of dual.space can be mapped to any other domain :-)

Is this a theorem, or a koan?

—Barry
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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Barry MacKichan]

Aha! I think the exercise here was to come up with a categorical 
statement.

—Barry

On 25 Oct 2021, at 10:19, Marcus Daniels wrote:

It is hard to find the motivation to invest much in category theory 
when the practical considerations are left as an exercise to the 
reader.

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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Marcus Daniels]

Could be.  But isn’t it obvious that writing a CA in some imperative language 
requires less hand wringing?What is the payoff?   So much of this stuff 
ends up coming across as “Look you can do the thing you already knew how to 
do!”  What can I do that I couldn’t do before?

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Barry MacKichan
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 8:52 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development


Aha! I think the exercise here was to come up with a categorical statement.
—Barry

On 25 Oct 2021, at 10:19, Marcus Daniels wrote:

It is hard to find the motivation to invest much in category theory when the 
practical considerations are left as an exercise to the reader.

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Re: [FRIAM] Thread Bust: WAS: stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[thompnickson2]

Thanks, Barry,

 

Yours was the only suggestion, so I really appreciate it.  

 

Before I wrote the list, I did go to that website and poke around, but did not 
find what I was looking for.  It puzzles me because it seems an easy program to 
make and I would expect that professors would the writing it for their students 
everywhere.  I will follow your suggestions closely. 

 

I bought the book on line.  It came in a day.  I can assure you that the pages 
are NOT blank.  It is as full of wonder as I remember it.  

 

I truly believe that you wizards hold the key to the universe if you could but 
put it in Citizen Talk. 

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Barry MacKichan
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 9:35 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Thread Bust: WAS: stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] 
development

 

You might want to try   
https://www.wolfram.com/language/. This could work since the “programming” 
needed is minima (given that you have the interpretating program). See also  

 
https://www.wolfram.com/language/11/new-visualization-domains/plot-cellular-automata.html.
 There seem to be free versions of some of the programs and, if not, there are 
usually student prices.

A totally off-thread anecdote. At some academic conference where both Wolfram 
and we were exhibiting, the Wolfram exhibit featured his new (then) book, ‘A 
New Kind of Science’, very hefty at something like 1000 pages, and attractive 
graphics on the cover. I went up to their booth to thumb through the book. 
Every page was blank. I hear it eventually got fleshed out.

—Barry

On 25 Oct 2021, at 1:37, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
  wrote:

Hey, Ed, 

 

Perhaps you are the person to answer this question:  I have snared both of my 
grandchildren in CA #30, the -son because he is interested in pattern formation 
in regenerating planaria and the -daughter because she likes really neat stuff. 
 I would like to give them simple programs so they could generate any one of 
the 256 rules and see the consequences of them.   I thought I would find 
several readily at hand, but what I did was a serious of sites which schooled 
me to write such a program myself.  I am too old for that.  Do you know of any 
I could email to my -children?  It is the first time in years that I have 
actually caught their fancy with something, so it would really make me happy. 

 

Thanks, 

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Angel Edward
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2021 5:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

 

In an affine space (vector space + point), an ant’s position is a point and a 
path or trail can be described by vectors.

 

__

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)edward.an...@gmail.com 
 
505-453-4944 (cell)   
http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

 

On Oct 24, 2021, at 5:27 PM, Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Focusing the application of ant foraging, what is the scalar product of an ant? 
 What is the sum of two ants.  Same questions for pheromone trails.  If the 
answer is that scalar product and sum are not general enough.  What are the 
homomorphisms of ants and pheromone trails?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 5:12 PM Jon Zingale mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I want to clarify what a dual space is.  I think it is much more general
than Frank thinks it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjoint_functors


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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Frank Wimberly]

I did not bully you, Jon.  I asked you some questions whose answers I
really don't know.

In a good world those questions might lead you to insights that we can all
benefit from.

I am sorry you feel bullied.  I know my intentions.

Frank


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 9:29 AM Jon Zingale  wrote:

> Also, for those that are unfamiliar with how adjoint functors come into
> the picture, here is something I wrote for my website on adjoint functors
> for dynamical systems:
>
> https://jonzingale.github.io/dynamical-monads/dynamical.html
>
> The graphs produced directly via this code:
>
> https://github.com/jonzingale/jonzingale.github.io/tree/master/dynamical-monads/hs
>
> Now, for those that have read and did the exercises in the Arbib and Manes
> classic "Arrows, Structures and Functors", you know that certain
> optimization problems like reachability and observability are dual
> concepts. Starting around page 100
>
> """
> Inspection of 9 and 12 may suggest to the astute reader that
> *reachability* and *observability* are *dual* concepts, in the
> categorical sense of the term. This is indeed so -- and for a class of
> machines broader than the sequential machines
> """
>
> So come on, let's act as if we can all still read and treat each other
> with some amount of grace. I have quite a lot to do this week, I would
> prefer not to be bullied. Since Frank *does* know me, he should know better.
>
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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Frank Wimberly]

I found this to be helpful.  The dual space of a vector space must be an
instance of this category theory concept of dual.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_(category_theory)


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 10:04 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> Could be.  But isn’t it obvious that writing a CA in some imperative
> language requires less hand wringing?What is the payoff?   So much of
> this stuff ends up coming across as “Look you can do the thing you already
> knew how to do!”  What can I do that I couldn’t do before?
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Barry MacKichan
> *Sent:* Monday, October 25, 2021 8:52 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development
>
>
>
> Aha! I think the exercise here was to come up with a categorical statement.
> —Barry
>
> On 25 Oct 2021, at 10:19, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> It is hard to find the motivation to invest much in category theory when
> the practical considerations are left as an exercise to the reader.
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Jon Zingale]

Thanks for understanding, Frank. Yes, the duality of vector spaces arises
as a particular instance with perfect duality only in the case of
finite-dimensional vector spaces. Here is a page outlining a broader
discussion: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/duality

Duality turns out to be a surprisingly general structural construction, and
to the degree that categories aim to characterize phenomena (group ->
symmetry, set -> size, Dyn -> behavior, etc...), I believe dualities in and
between categories can guide quite a lot of rational exploration.

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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Frank Wimberly]

Thanks, Jon.  I will read that catlab post.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:35 AM Jon Zingale  wrote:

> Thanks for understanding, Frank. Yes, the duality of vector spaces arises
> as a particular instance with perfect duality only in the case of
> finite-dimensional vector spaces. Here is a page outlining a broader
> discussion: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/duality
>
> Duality turns out to be a surprisingly general structural construction,
> and to the degree that categories aim to characterize phenomena (group ->
> symmetry, set -> size, Dyn -> behavior, etc...), I believe dualities in and
> between categories can guide quite a lot of rational exploration.
>
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>

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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[thompnickson2]

Only I know your intentions, Frank.  How many times to I have to tell you that. 
 

“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men; the behaviorist 
 # knows. HOO-HAA-HA-HA-HAA.“ 

 

# (adopting Glen’s practice) The introductory line from the radio adaptation of 
The Shadow – "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow 
knows!" - spoken by actor   Frank 
Readick, has earned a place in the  
 American  
 idiom. These words were accompanied by an 
  ominous laugh and a musical 
theme,   Camille 
Saint-Saëns' Le Rouet d'Omphale ("Omphale's Spinning Wheel," composed in 1872). 
 Thanks to Wikipedia. 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 10:52 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

 

I did not bully you, Jon.  I asked you some questions whose answers I really 
don't know.

 

In a good world those questions might lead you to insights that we can all 
benefit from.

 

I am sorry you feel bullied.  I know my intentions.

 

Frank

 

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 9:29 AM Jon Zingale mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Also, for those that are unfamiliar with how adjoint functors come into the 
picture, here is something I wrote for my website on adjoint functors for 
dynamical systems:

 

https://jonzingale.github.io/dynamical-monads/dynamical.html

 

The graphs produced directly via this code:

https://github.com/jonzingale/jonzingale.github.io/tree/master/dynamical-monads/hs

 

Now, for those that have read and did the exercises in the Arbib and Manes 
classic "Arrows, Structures and Functors", you know that certain optimization 
problems like reachability and observability are dual concepts. Starting around 
page 100

 

"""

Inspection of 9 and 12 may suggest to the astute reader that reachability and 
observability are dual concepts, in the categorical sense of the term. This is 
indeed so -- and for a class of machines broader than the sequential 
machines

"""

 

So come on, let's act as if we can all still read and treat each other with 
some amount of grace. I have quite a lot to do this week, I would prefer not to 
be bullied. Since Frank *does* know me, he should know better.


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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Marcus Daniels]

Who cares what lurks in the hearts of men?   Certainly not the behaviorist!

From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 11:56 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

Only I know your intentions, Frank.  How many times to I have to tell you that.
“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men; the 
behaviorist# knows. 
HOO-HAA-HA-HA-HAA.“


# (adopting Glen’s practice) The introductory line from the radio adaptation of 
The Shadow – "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow 
knows!" - spoken by actor Frank 
Readick, has earned a place in the 
American 
idiom. These words were accompanied by an 
ominous laugh and a musical theme, 
Camille Saint-Saëns' Le 
Rouet d'Omphale ("Omphale's Spinning Wheel," composed in 1872).  Thanks to 
Wikipedia.

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 10:52 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

I did not bully you, Jon.  I asked you some questions whose answers I really 
don't know.

In a good world those questions might lead you to insights that we can all 
benefit from.

I am sorry you feel bullied.  I know my intentions.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 9:29 AM Jon Zingale 
mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Also, for those that are unfamiliar with how adjoint functors come into the 
picture, here is something I wrote for my website on adjoint functors for 
dynamical systems:

https://jonzingale.github.io/dynamical-monads/dynamical.html

The graphs produced directly via this code:
https://github.com/jonzingale/jonzingale.github.io/tree/master/dynamical-monads/hs

Now, for those that have read and did the exercises in the Arbib and Manes 
classic "Arrows, Structures and Functors", you know that certain optimization 
problems like reachability and observability are dual concepts. Starting around 
page 100

"""
Inspection of 9 and 12 may suggest to the astute reader that reachability and 
observability are dual concepts, in the categorical sense of the term. This is 
indeed so -- and for a class of machines broader than the sequential 
machines
"""

So come on, let's act as if we can all still read and treat each other with 
some amount of grace. I have quite a lot to do this week, I would prefer not to 
be bullied. Since Frank *does* know me, he should know better.

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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[thompnickson2]

M

 

We behaviorists think you all wear your hearts on your sleeves.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 1:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

 

Who cares what lurks in the hearts of men?   Certainly not the behaviorist!

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com  
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 11:56 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

 

Only I know your intentions, Frank.  How many times to I have to tell you that. 
 

“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men; the behaviorist 
 # knows. HOO-HAA-HA-HA-HAA.“ 

 

# (adopting Glen’s practice) The introductory line from the radio adaptation of 
The Shadow – "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow 
knows!" - spoken by actor   Frank 
Readick, has earned a place in the  
 American  
 idiom. These words were accompanied by an 
  ominous laugh and a musical 
theme,   Camille 
Saint-Saëns' Le Rouet d'Omphale ("Omphale's Spinning Wheel," composed in 1872). 
 Thanks to Wikipedia. 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 10:52 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

 

I did not bully you, Jon.  I asked you some questions whose answers I really 
don't know.

 

In a good world those questions might lead you to insights that we can all 
benefit from.

 

I am sorry you feel bullied.  I know my intentions.

 

Frank

 

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 9:29 AM Jon Zingale mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Also, for those that are unfamiliar with how adjoint functors come into the 
picture, here is something I wrote for my website on adjoint functors for 
dynamical systems:

 

https://jonzingale.github.io/dynamical-monads/dynamical.html

 

The graphs produced directly via this code:

https://github.com/jonzingale/jonzingale.github.io/tree/master/dynamical-monads/hs

 

Now, for those that have read and did the exercises in the Arbib and Manes 
classic "Arrows, Structures and Functors", you know that certain optimization 
problems like reachability and observability are dual concepts. Starting around 
page 100

 

"""

Inspection of 9 and 12 may suggest to the astute reader that reachability and 
observability are dual concepts, in the categorical sense of the term. This is 
indeed so -- and for a class of machines broader than the sequential 
machines

"""

 

So come on, let's act as if we can all still read and treat each other with 
some amount of grace. I have quite a lot to do this week, I would prefer not to 
be bullied. Since Frank *does* know me, he should know better.


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Re: [FRIAM] Thread Bust: WAS: stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Here's a kitchen sink program. I downloaded and tested it. 

https://softology.com.au/voc.htm


Here's the results of my test for rule 30:

https://youtu.be/sG-XZBta20M

The highlighted rows in the middle were used to generate the horizontal banner 
at the bottom, which makes MIDI music out of that region. I didn't include the 
audio in the video.

On 10/24/21 10:37 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Perhaps you are the person to answer this question:  I have snared both of my 
> grandchildren in CA #30, the -son because he is interested in pattern 
> formation in regenerating planaria and the -daughter because she likes really 
> neat stuff.  I would like to give them simple programs so they could generate 
> any one of the 256 rules and see the consequences of them.   I thought I 
> would find several readily at hand, but what I did was a serious of sites 
> which schooled me to write such a program myself.  I am too old for that.  Do 
> you know of any I could email to my -children?  It is the first time in years 
> that I have actually caught their fancy with something, so it would really 
> make me happy.

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Marcus Daniels]

I guess there weren’t any behaviorists around when Snowden was filling up USB 
drives.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 12:06 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

M

We behaviorists think you all wear your hearts on your sleeves.

n

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 1:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

Who cares what lurks in the hearts of men?   Certainly not the behaviorist!

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 11:56 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

Only I know your intentions, Frank.  How many times to I have to tell you that.
“Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men; the 
behaviorist# knows. 
HOO-HAA-HA-HA-HAA.“


# (adopting Glen’s practice) The introductory line from the radio adaptation of 
The Shadow – "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow 
knows!" - spoken by actor Frank 
Readick, has earned a place in the 
American 
idiom. These words were accompanied by an 
ominous laugh and a musical theme, 
Camille Saint-Saëns' Le 
Rouet d'Omphale ("Omphale's Spinning Wheel," composed in 1872).  Thanks to 
Wikipedia.

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 10:52 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

I did not bully you, Jon.  I asked you some questions whose answers I really 
don't know.

In a good world those questions might lead you to insights that we can all 
benefit from.

I am sorry you feel bullied.  I know my intentions.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 9:29 AM Jon Zingale 
mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Also, for those that are unfamiliar with how adjoint functors come into the 
picture, here is something I wrote for my website on adjoint functors for 
dynamical systems:

https://jonzingale.github.io/dynamical-monads/dynamical.html

The graphs produced directly via this code:
https://github.com/jonzingale/jonzingale.github.io/tree/master/dynamical-monads/hs

Now, for those that have read and did the exercises in the Arbib and Manes 
classic "Arrows, Structures and Functors", you know that certain optimization 
problems like reachability and observability are dual concepts. Starting around 
page 100

"""
Inspection of 9 and 12 may suggest to the astute reader that reachability and 
observability are dual concepts, in the categorical sense of the term. This is 
indeed so -- and for a class of machines broader than the sequential 
machines
"""

So come on, let's act as if we can all still read and treat each other with 
some amount of grace. I have quite a lot to do this week, I would prefer not to 
be bullied. Since Frank *does* know me, he should know better.

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Re: [FRIAM] Thread Bust: WAS: stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Stephen Guerin]

Nick,

I put the standard Netlogo CA model set to rule 30 online here
https://redfish.com/models/CARule30.html

Hit setup or setup-random then go.  You can play with the rule set on the
left. Note as a binary bits, the CA number ranges from 0-255 depending on
which bits are switched on. Play with the show rules button too.

[image: image.png]

There are hundreds of others on the web, but the Netlogo version is easy
for Miles to download and modify. And, he can get into agent-based modeling
of so many other phenomena. We showed him a bit during his internship.
There's also slime mold aggregation example in netlogo of which I
previously posted Owen's agentscript.org version:

https://www.netlogoweb.org/launch#https://www.netlogoweb.org/assets/modelslib/Sample%20Models/Biology/Slime.nlogo

 ___
stephen.gue...@simtable.com 
CEO, Simtable  http://www.simtable.com
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828
twitter: @simtable
z oom.simtable.com


On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 10:44 AM  wrote:

> Thanks, Barry,
>
>
>
> Yours was the only suggestion, so I really appreciate it.
>
>
>
> Before I wrote the list, I did go to that website and poke around, but did
> not find what I was looking for.  It puzzles me because it seems an easy
> program to make and I would expect that professors would the writing it for
> their students everywhere.  I will follow your suggestions closely.
>
>
>
> I bought the book on line.  It came in a day.  I can assure you that the
> pages are NOT blank.  It is as full of wonder as I remember it.
>
>
>
> I truly believe that you wizards hold the key to the universe if you could
> but put it in Citizen Talk.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Barry MacKichan
> *Sent:* Monday, October 25, 2021 9:35 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Thread Bust: WAS: stygmergy, CA's, and
> [biological] development
>
>
>
> You might want to try https://www.wolfram.com/language/. This could work
> since the “programming” needed is minima (given that you have the
> interpretating program). See also
> https://www.wolfram.com/language/11/new-visualization-domains/plot-cellular-automata.html.
> There seem to be free versions of some of the programs and, if not, there
> are usually student prices.
>
> A totally off-thread anecdote. At some academic conference where both
> Wolfram and we were exhibiting, the Wolfram exhibit featured his new (then)
> book, ‘A New Kind of Science’, very hefty at something like 1000 pages, and
> attractive graphics on the cover. I went up to their booth to thumb through
> the book. Every page was blank. I hear it eventually got fleshed out.
>
> —Barry
>
> On 25 Oct 2021, at 1:37, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Hey, Ed,
>
>
>
> Perhaps you are the person to answer this question:  I have snared both of
> my grandchildren in CA #30, the -son because he is interested in pattern
> formation in regenerating planaria and the -daughter because she likes
> really neat stuff.  I would like to give them simple programs so they could
> generate any one of the 256 rules and see the consequences of them.   I
> thought I would find several readily at hand, but what I did was a serious
> of sites which schooled me to write such a program myself.  I am too old
> for that.  Do you know of any I could email to my -children?  It is the
> first time in years that I have actually caught their fancy with something,
> so it would really make me happy.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Angel Edward
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 24, 2021 5:36 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development
>
>
>
> In an affine space (vector space + point), an ant’s position is a point
> and a path or trail can be described by vectors.
>
>
>
> __
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS
> Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)edward.an...@gmail.com
> 505-453-4944 (cell)
> http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
>
>
> On Oct 24, 2021, at 5:27 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>
>
> Focusing the application of ant foraging, what is the scalar product of an
> ant?  What is the sum of two ants.  Same questions for pheromone trails.
> If the answer is that scalar product and sum are not general enough.  What
> are the homomorphisms of ants and pheromone trails?
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, N

Re: [FRIAM] Thread Bust: WAS: stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

FWIW, the windows program I pointed you to is very broad, allowing program-free 
experimentation with all sorts of "complexity" stuff. Way easier.

On 10/25/21 1:12 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thank you everybody, thank you Steve.  The netlogo model was exactly what I 
> was looking for.  I thought I had done my due diligence on that cite, but 
> indeed, as usual, I hadn’t.   
> 
>  
> 
> I will get it to them straight way.
> 
>  
> 
> Friam is the greatest!
> 
>  
> 
> Nick
> 
>  
> 
> Nick Thompson
> 
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> 
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Stephen Guerin
> *Sent:* Monday, October 25, 2021 1:34 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Thread Bust: WAS: stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] 
> development
> 
>  
> 
> Nick,
> 
> I put the standard Netlogo CA model set to rule 30 online here
> https://redfish.com/models/CARule30.html 
> 
> 
> Hit setup or setup-random then go.  You can play with the rule set on the 
> left. Note as a binary bits, the CA number ranges from 0-255 depending on 
> which bits are switched on. Play with the show rules button too.
> 
> 
> 
> There are hundreds of others on the web, but the Netlogo version is easy for 
> Miles to download and modify. And, he can get into agent-based modeling of so 
> many other phenomena. We showed him a bit during his internship. There's also 
> slime mold aggregation example in netlogo of which I previously posted Owen's 
> agentscript.org  version:
> 
> 
> https://www.netlogoweb.org/launch#https://www.netlogoweb.org/assets/modelslib/Sample%20Models/Biology/Slime.nlogo
>  
> 
> 

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[David Eric Smith]

There is a formalism for discrete-event dynamical systems known as “bond 
graphs”.  I haven’t read much about it, but Alan Perelson did some work on this 
when he was young and not famous.

Bond graphs seem to be a slightly more flexible construction than hypergraphs, 
and they contain a subset that are equivalent to hypergraphs.  

I bring them up here because bond graphs may admit a certain duality between 
states and events that interests me, as the right way to move the normal 
concept of Legendre/Lagrange-Hamilton duality for continuous dynamical systems 
into the limiting condition that all change is in discrete events, so the role 
of states and of the events that change states becomes maximally asymmetric, 
whereas in continuous Hamiltonian dynamics they are equivalent in the basic 
kinematics.

Speaking for the hypergraph, which I can describe without making the mistakes I 
would likely make for bond graphs: as I write the hypergraph, states are 
carried by one type of node (the “species” node) while events occur across one 
kind of link (a link connecting two “complexes”)   (Terminology from Horn and 
Jackson and Martin Feinberg for chemical reaction systems.)   The links between 
species and complexes, different in kind than the reaction-links connecting 
complexes, carry the system’s stoichiometry.

Anyway, If the usual duality between coordinates and their conjugate momenta in 
Hamiltonian dynamics were passed to this discrete-event limit, one would want 
to exchange the species nodes, which carry pure “coordinates” of state, with 
the links across which the events changing the state occur.  I forget now why I 
gave up trying to push this through sometime past, but I think it was that 
there is some non-equivalent role of nodes and links in the bipartite-graph way 
of representing the hypergraph that I could not see how to get past.  Bond 
graphs may have enough flexibility to find a proper involution exchanging 
states and events.

That old topic came to mind while I was watching the ant/pheromone thread, 
though not in any clean way.  From one view, ants have states, and pheromones 
mediate the dynamics by which they are updated.  But from another view, ants 
conduct the only events through which the state of the pheromone map is 
permitted to change.  Both of the foregoing characterizations are incomplete, 
as both ant and pheromone clearly have both state and dynamic properties.  But 
some more encompassing mapping that exchanged the part above was what I 
imagined.

I have seen a _very_ little bit of this category-theoretic mapping of large 
domains of representation to one another (through Barry Mazur), so I know that 
“objects” can be pretty heavy things, with a lot carried in the map.  But I was 
curious how either Legendre/Lagrange-Hamilton coordinate-momentum duality, or 
any state-event dualities in discrete-time systems might be classified, and 
whether there was some categorization in which the distinction between 
continuous-time dynamics and discrete-time dynamics (conceived as a limit, or 
as a primitive of its own) might be projected away.  

There is lots to do with entropy, quantum-classical correspondence principles, 
and the like, across this continuous-discrete divide.  Would a category 
representation that treated the continuous and discrete cases as the same also 
induce the map from entropy principles that I think is the right one to go from 
von Neumann entropies in the continuous, to the stochastic effective actions 
that are the correct entropies for the discrete case?  My above thoughts on it 
are surely not well-formed.

Eric




> On Oct 25, 2021, at 1:35 PM, Jon Zingale  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for understanding, Frank. Yes, the duality of vector spaces arises as 
> a particular instance with perfect duality only in the case of 
> finite-dimensional vector spaces. Here is a page outlining a broader 
> discussion: https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/duality 
> 
> 
> Duality turns out to be a surprisingly general structural construction, and 
> to the degree that categories aim to characterize phenomena (group -> 
> symmetry, set -> size, Dyn -> behavior, etc...), I believe dualities in and 
> between categories can guide quite a lot of rational exploration.
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Frank Wimberly]

An example of what Marcus is saying is that using the category definition
of duality you can show that the dual space of the dual space is (is
isomorphic to) the original space.  That's easy to show without the added
generality.



---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:20 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> I found this to be helpful.  The dual space of a vector space must be an
> instance of this category theory concept of dual.
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_(category_theory)
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 10:04 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> Could be.  But isn’t it obvious that writing a CA in some imperative
>> language requires less hand wringing?What is the payoff?   So much of
>> this stuff ends up coming across as “Look you can do the thing you already
>> knew how to do!”  What can I do that I couldn’t do before?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Barry MacKichan
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 25, 2021 8:52 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development
>>
>>
>>
>> Aha! I think the exercise here was to come up with a categorical
>> statement.
>> —Barry
>>
>> On 25 Oct 2021, at 10:19, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>
>> It is hard to find the motivation to invest much in category theory when
>> the practical considerations are left as an exercise to the reader.
>>
>>
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>>  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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>>
>

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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Jon Zingale]

"""

An example of what Marcus is saying is that using the category definition
of duality you can show that the dual space of the dual space is (is
isomorphic to) the original space.  That's easy to show without the added
generality.

"""

Except for when that isn't true. Consider non-finite dimensional vector spaces.

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Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[Marcus Daniels]

Perhaps it depends whether one cares about a special case, common case, or all 
instances?
And how many useful things can be proven for all instances without any specific 
semantics in mind.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Jon Zingale
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 5:17 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

"""

An example of what Marcus is saying is that using the category definition

of duality you can show that the dual space of the dual space is (is

isomorphic to) the original space.  That's easy to show without the added

generality.

"""

Except for when that isn't true. Consider non-finite dimensional vector spaces.

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Re: [FRIAM] Thread Bust: WAS: stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[thompnickson2]

Thanks, Glen.  I will go back and check it out.  N

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 2:16 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Thread Bust: WAS: stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] 
development

FWIW, the windows program I pointed you to is very broad, allowing program-free 
experimentation with all sorts of "complexity" stuff. Way easier.

On 10/25/21 1:12 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thank you everybody, thank you Steve.  The netlogo model was exactly 
> what I was looking for.  I thought I had done my due diligence on that cite, 
> but indeed, as usual, I hadn’t.
> 
>  
> 
> I will get it to them straight way.
> 
>  
> 
> Friam is the greatest!
> 
>  
> 
> Nick
> 
>  
> 
> Nick Thompson
> 
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> 
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Stephen 
> Guerin
> *Sent:* Monday, October 25, 2021 1:34 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Thread Bust: WAS: stygmergy, CA's, and 
> [biological] development
> 
>  
> 
> Nick,
> 
> I put the standard Netlogo CA model set to rule 30 online here 
> https://redfish.com/models/CARule30.html 
> 
> 
> Hit setup or setup-random then go.  You can play with the rule set on the 
> left. Note as a binary bits, the CA number ranges from 0-255 depending on 
> which bits are switched on. Play with the show rules button too.
> 
> 
> 
> There are hundreds of others on the web, but the Netlogo version is easy for 
> Miles to download and modify. And, he can get into agent-based modeling of so 
> many other phenomena. We showed him a bit during his internship. There's also 
> slime mold aggregation example in netlogo of which I previously posted Owen's 
> agentscript.org  version:
> 
> 
> https://www.netlogoweb.org/launch#https://www.netlogoweb.org/assets/mo
> delslib/Sample%20Models/Biology/Slime.nlogo 
>  odelslib/Sample%20Models/Biology/Slime.nlogo>
> 

--
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] Thread Bust: WAS: stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development

[thompnickson2]

Hi, Glen, 

It was quite clear that CHAOS was a much more "powerful" program, but I got an 
error message when I went to download it, and about that time Steve's message 
came in.  Miles has some passing familiarity with NetLogo and I don't think we 
need the power to demonstrate the essential point that a process can be fated 
to come out in a particular way even tho' none of the participants has any idea 
of what that fate is.  How Sophocles-esque!  But we do have the "Behe Problem". 
 How does natural selection select for the genes that make the fate when the 
fate is a non-linear consequence of the genes.  I suppose somebody has tried to 
select for different patterns as an outcome in a Net Logo model and see if 
selection could somehow dig down to the eight "genes" that make up the model.   
I used to think I understood how this was possible, but right now it seems like 
a hot potato again.

Maybe CHAOS would let me try that experiment.

Nick 

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 1:09 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Thread Bust: WAS: stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] 
development


Here's a kitchen sink program. I downloaded and tested it. 

https://softology.com.au/voc.htm


Here's the results of my test for rule 30:

https://youtu.be/sG-XZBta20M

The highlighted rows in the middle were used to generate the horizontal banner 
at the bottom, which makes MIDI music out of that region. I didn't include the 
audio in the video.

On 10/24/21 10:37 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Perhaps you are the person to answer this question:  I have snared both of my 
> grandchildren in CA #30, the -son because he is interested in pattern 
> formation in regenerating planaria and the -daughter because she likes really 
> neat stuff.  I would like to give them simple programs so they could generate 
> any one of the 256 rules and see the consequences of them.   I thought I 
> would find several readily at hand, but what I did was a serious of sites 
> which schooled me to write such a program myself.  I am too old for that.  Do 
> you know of any I could email to my -children?  It is the first time in years 
> that I have actually caught their fancy with something, so it would really 
> make me happy.

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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