date:20211111

Dave, 

 

So, ad hominem aside, which of the assertions  I made are false.   Is Hong Kong 
not being digested as we speak?  Is pressure not increasing on the Taiwanese?  
Are islands not being built and fortified in the international waters around 
China?  Are the Uighurs not being confined in work camps?   Are the Chinese not 
massively deploying surveillance technology?  Look, I don’t hold it against the 
Chinese.  Given our behavior in the last decade, I think a very good case can 
be made for the superiority of authoritarian rule in the avoidance of economic 
and social chaos.  If democracies are capable of producing Hitlers and Trumps 
and the current Turkish and Hungarian leaders, which exactly IS their special 
call on our loyalty.  Could that loyalty just be so much romantic twaddle.  The 
democratical citizens of Athens murdered an entire defenseless city of their 
fellow Greeks—put them to the sword, I believe is how Thucydides put it.   I 
don’t happen to agree with the argument, but I don’t have to think of the 
Chinese as some hideous yellow peril to believe that they sincerely believe it. 
 I just have to think that they are expanding, as we did after the cold war, 
into a vacuum left by our own sudden ambivalence concerning our own values.  I 
don’t believe that Trump could have written the above, but even if he could, a 
stopped clock has to be right two times a day (or only once, if it is a twenty 
four our clock.)  

 

I would love to believe that I am wrong about any of this.  Democracies are 
caving all over the world and I think it’s fair to say that a majority of 
americans have given up on the idea as well.  

 

The one thing I am desperately naïve about and that complexity denies is that 
it is valuable to think ahead, to plan, to share plans with fellow citizens, 
and to follow some fair rules for arriving at a consensus, being ever vigilant 
for the perils of mob psychology and group think, before taking action.  All of 
that is in peril, right now, and when the history is written it will have been 
us that let it happen.  

 

N

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 9:39 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird 
flocks

 

Nick, get out your dagger repellent you Trumpist you!

 

I have heard, almost verbatim, your entire paragraph from the mouth of the 
Donald, and seen the exact same notions discussed, ad nauseam,  in Glen's 
favorite newspaper, The Epoch Times. [Don't shoot me glen, it is a joke.]

 

davew

 

 

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 11:57 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
  wrote:

Steve,

 

Well, I may be the victim of recent “neo- (aka archeo-) liberal” pod casts, but 
I really get the impression that the Chinese are going for it, boasting a 
Chinese Exceptionalism every bit as toxic as the one we have espoused.  From 
their point of view, this moment in history is the analogue of our moment after 
WW two.  They are ready to move ahead and there is nobody “out there” with the 
organization or resources to oppose them.  Why would they not take the 
opportunity?  The age of sino-hegemony is upon us.  We either pull our socks up 
politically or settle down to be the new Yugoslavia. 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Steve Smith

Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 11:58 AM

To: friam@redfish.com  

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird 
flocks

 

Nick -

I asked this because the style of your statement felt like it had the flavor of 
Cold War Rhetoric which I was (also) raised on.   I (want to) think something 
more sophisticated (and interesting) is afoot today and that while I don't want 
to fall into the low-entropy stylization implied by this CCP Spectre, I *do* 
want to believe (or seek) something good that the CCP "great experiment" might 
have found while we were on our NeoLiberal hyperCapitalism "great experiment".  
 Is there room to learn something (humanist/humanitarian) from them?   I 
believe StephenG's familiarity with China in modern times (as well as others) 
may offer us some parallax?

- Steve

On 11/11/21 10:42 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com   
wrote:

Steve,

 

No.  You are right on target for the thread.  My understanding of the present 
Government is that it is absolutely convinced that the centralist, 
technological, authoritarian model of government superior to other models and 
that this is their time to demonstrate that superiority.   I can really imagine 
some CCP lead

Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

2021-11-11 Thread Prof David West

Nick, get out your dagger repellent you Trumpist you!

I have heard, almost verbatim, your entire paragraph from the mouth of the 
Donald, and seen the exact same notions discussed, ad nauseam,  in Glen's 
favorite newspaper, *The Epoch Times.* [Don't shoot me glen, it is a joke.]

davew


On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 11:57 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Steve,
>  
> Well, I may be the victim of recent “neo- (aka archeo-) liberal” pod casts, 
> but I really get the impression that the Chinese are going for it, boasting a 
> Chinese Exceptionalism every bit as toxic as the one we have espoused.  From 
> their point of view, this moment in history is the analogue of our moment 
> after WW two.  They are ready to move ahead and there is nobody “out there” 
> with the organization or resources to oppose them.  Why would they not take 
> the opportunity?  The age of sino-hegemony is upon us.  We either pull our 
> socks up politically or settle down to be the new Yugoslavia. 
>  
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>  
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 11, 2021 11:58 AM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of 
> bird flocks
> 
>  
> Nick -
> 
> I asked this because the style of your statement felt like it had the flavor 
> of Cold War Rhetoric which I was (also) raised on.   I (want to) think 
> something more sophisticated (and interesting) is afoot today and that while 
> I don't want to fall into the low-entropy stylization implied by this CCP 
> Spectre, I *do* want to believe (or seek) something good that the CCP "great 
> experiment" might have found while we were on our NeoLiberal hyperCapitalism 
> "great experiment".   Is there room to learn something 
> (humanist/humanitarian) from them?   I believe StephenG's familiarity with 
> China in modern times (as well as others) may offer us some parallax?
> 
> - Steve
> 
> On 11/11/21 10:42 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Steve,
>>  
>> No.  You are right on target for the thread.  My understanding of the 
>> present Government is that it is absolutely convinced that the centralist, 
>> technological, authoritarian model of government superior to other models 
>> and that this is their time to demonstrate that superiority.   I can really 
>> imagine some CCP leaders reading this research and thinking, “m!  
>> THAT’S interesting.  In my back yard, back in the sixties, there was a 
>> teensy little CIA research station figuring out how to get animals –dogs, 
>> ravens, pigeons, donkeys, what-have-you, to carry bombs for them, using a 
>> combination of training and neural implants.  When the gave up the project, 
>> they left behind two gigantic glass carboys filled with pickled dogs heads. 
>>  
>> The Shadow Knows.
>> Nick
>>  
>> Nick Thompson
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>  
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 11, 2021 11:22 AM
>> *To:* friam@redfish.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of 
>> bird flocks
>> 
>>  
>> Nick -
>> 
>> 
>>> Chinese science moves ahead in the development of the ideal society.
>>> 
>> I don't mean to be flip in my question, but have to ask if you are being 
>> flip in this statement?  Can you say more about what you think the Chinese 
>> gov't/people/culture might be "trying" to do, either overtly, or implicitly 
>> by simply following their individual goals/interests/desires?   
>> 
>> I believe that the collective dynamics between Nations/Peoples are what is 
>> dominating the movement/evolution of humanity (cultural, not genetic) and 
>> that it is like an N-body problem in complexity and subtlety but is effected 
>> primarily through network relations.  
>> 
>> Like Gene Expression Networks, I believe that the more important "memes" (I 
>> think this is a useful but risky metaphorical binding that Dawkins coined 
>> for us most of a career (for me) ago) are those that are _regulatory_ which 
>> is why the likes of Trump and Bannon and Stone and the whole cabal of 
>> supervillians we are coping with these days focus on things like "fake 
>> news!" and "big lie!", etc.   In the spirit of McLuhan, "the medium IS the 
>> message", the medium itself becomes the _thing to manipulate_ like trying to 
>> disrupt the news credibility and the election process as well as becoming 
>> the definition of a tweetHole, and using Facebook to disseminate dysInfo etc.
>> 
>> I know this is an acute threadbend, you were trying to talk about birds and 
>> flocking and experimental techniques for studying same...  if you do feel 
>> inclined to answer, it is probably best to rethread.
>> 
>>> https://jin.imrpress.com/article/2020/1757-448X/1757-448X-19-3-443.shtml
>>> 
>>> If the robo-pigeon is a dominant member of the flock, you can make the 
>>> flock do loo

Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

2021-11-11 Thread Gillian Densmore

Nick Fwiw. Me being, me. I for a bit I used this clip to stop robodiallers.
because  it seemed amusing and appropriate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyenRCJ_4Ww
I guess it worked for about 12 weeks didn't get a single spam call.

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 2:12 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Sounds nobel prize worthy!
> h  sounds of "fast"  internet in the 80s:
> nee-nee-nee-neeh-k-hisss-static- static- static- static- pop his
> screech  pop.
> My "fix" for robocalls is to let people I know msg me, i tend to screen
> calls because of them-it works for all but 1 person. lol she calls it the
> most zoomer thing, and please call, because she spends her life on zoom atm.
>
> lol 😂 now, steve, how do you get calls when Tmobile or Verizon is them?
> or worse your cellphones battery is out? have a old school back up? or no?
>
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:49 AM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>> Spam/Robo calls have driven me (long ago) to virtually never having my
>> ringer on or answering my phone when it does ring unless the caller is in
>> my contact list AND I know who it is.   I can hardly remember how I coped
>> with my landline in this regard which I let go nearly 20 years ago.
>>
>> FWIW I had a co-worker/friend who left LANL about 1984 to go work for a
>> budding RoboCall company...  She was a very clever/capable woman with a lot
>> of humility and wit, but in spite of her self-deprecating description of
>> the job/work, she took it anyway.   I suspect it may have been a stepping
>> stone for her to solve the 2-body problem with her husband who perhaps was
>> about to accept a job in a particular geographic locale where this may have
>> been located.  Such a job would be the obvious/ideal telework job, but it
>> *was* 1984 (Orwell references aside) and the state of the art seemed to be
>> luggable thermal-print terminals with 1200 baud modems, so maybe not.   I
>> can't even remember her last name, or I'd go look her up and grill her on
>> how all that turned out for her!
>> On 11/11/21 10:11 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>>
>> TELL ME ABOUT IT
>> Edd Angel uses nomo robo. because I mostly use a cellphone as my number
>> would get at least that many multiple times a day, even spam texts! that
>> cost real money. It got so fucking bad I joke that I have PTSD from them.
>> I'm trying
>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.youmail.android.vvm
>> for my cellphone with ok results. Just ok. It's free.
>> Try something that's free. Or at least has a free trial before dropping
>> 70 bucks to block numbnut spamers and collection callers and that free
>> cruise. Or some IRS scam from the same 20 people in india.
>> I don't know how good century links thing is.
>>
>> I "love" when they call at 6am. Almost funny because it's probly the same
>> parastic leaches. The even "better" part is that it's not legal. Tmobiles
>> built phone robo calling thing is almost useless I can tell you that much.
>> It's so comically bad I know when I've reinstalled or updated android
>> because it feels like seconds before I find out all the free cruise after
>> selling a soul or 2. And unlikely to actually be free to. It's like
>> browsing the web without an addblocker. My favorite is no matter how many
>> creative ways I find to curse and motherfuck them and tell them to take me
>> off the  spam list? I could be shouting at a wall for how well it works. Ie
>> it does about jack.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:37 AM  wrote:
>>
>>> Ok.  I’m pissed.  4 spam calls before 9 this morning.  Century Link is
>>> offering me a call blocker for 70 bucks,
>>>  which seems to be a bit
>>> CHEAPER than Amazon for the same object.  Do these things work, or is
>>> buying one just going to make me angrier when the calls keep coming anyway?
>>>
>>> N
>>>
>>>
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>>> archives:
>>>  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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>>>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

2021-11-11 Thread Gillian Densmore

Sounds nobel prize worthy!
h  sounds of "fast"  internet in the 80s:
nee-nee-nee-neeh-k-hisss-static- static- static- static- pop his
screech  pop.
My "fix" for robocalls is to let people I know msg me, i tend to screen
calls because of them-it works for all but 1 person. lol she calls it the
most zoomer thing, and please call, because she spends her life on zoom atm.

lol 😂 now, steve, how do you get calls when Tmobile or Verizon is them? or
worse your cellphones battery is out? have a old school back up? or no?

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:49 AM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Spam/Robo calls have driven me (long ago) to virtually never having my
> ringer on or answering my phone when it does ring unless the caller is in
> my contact list AND I know who it is.   I can hardly remember how I coped
> with my landline in this regard which I let go nearly 20 years ago.
>
> FWIW I had a co-worker/friend who left LANL about 1984 to go work for a
> budding RoboCall company...  She was a very clever/capable woman with a lot
> of humility and wit, but in spite of her self-deprecating description of
> the job/work, she took it anyway.   I suspect it may have been a stepping
> stone for her to solve the 2-body problem with her husband who perhaps was
> about to accept a job in a particular geographic locale where this may have
> been located.  Such a job would be the obvious/ideal telework job, but it
> *was* 1984 (Orwell references aside) and the state of the art seemed to be
> luggable thermal-print terminals with 1200 baud modems, so maybe not.   I
> can't even remember her last name, or I'd go look her up and grill her on
> how all that turned out for her!
> On 11/11/21 10:11 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>
> TELL ME ABOUT IT
> Edd Angel uses nomo robo. because I mostly use a cellphone as my number
> would get at least that many multiple times a day, even spam texts! that
> cost real money. It got so fucking bad I joke that I have PTSD from them.
> I'm trying
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.youmail.android.vvm for
> my cellphone with ok results. Just ok. It's free.
> Try something that's free. Or at least has a free trial before dropping 70
> bucks to block numbnut spamers and collection callers and that free cruise.
> Or some IRS scam from the same 20 people in india.
> I don't know how good century links thing is.
>
> I "love" when they call at 6am. Almost funny because it's probly the same
> parastic leaches. The even "better" part is that it's not legal. Tmobiles
> built phone robo calling thing is almost useless I can tell you that much.
> It's so comically bad I know when I've reinstalled or updated android
> because it feels like seconds before I find out all the free cruise after
> selling a soul or 2. And unlikely to actually be free to. It's like
> browsing the web without an addblocker. My favorite is no matter how many
> creative ways I find to curse and motherfuck them and tell them to take me
> off the  spam list? I could be shouting at a wall for how well it works. Ie
> it does about jack.
>
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:37 AM  wrote:
>
>> Ok.  I’m pissed.  4 spam calls before 9 this morning.  Century Link is
>> offering me a call blocker for 70 bucks,
>>  which seems to be a bit
>> CHEAPER than Amazon for the same object.  Do these things work, or is
>> buying one just going to make me angrier when the calls keep coming anyway?
>>
>> N
>>
>>
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>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:
>>  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>
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> archives:
>  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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Re: [FRIAM] Is Chemero TRULY a pragmatist.

A dagger plunged into my ideological heart.   You could have called me a 
Trumpist, and the wound would not have been so great.  

[sigh]

n

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 1:03 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is Chemero TRULY a pragmatist.

Primarily: There can be an ultimately arrived at position that is not the prior 
waypoint positions. The 2 named claims (metaphysical and epistemological) might 
be "out of the way" waypoints toward that *other truth* which is neither 
metaphorical nor instrumental. From this perspective Chemero's gist seems like 
a targeting of that possibility ... an attempt to see further down the process. 
That sounds pragmatic to me. And even if we arrive at the latter first (a 
metaphorical or instrumental thing-a-majiggy), it doesn't imply that's the end 
of the settling out process. We don't know. We won't know ... until the 
universe ends in heat death. 

Secondarily: Computationalists need not be representationalists. Analog 
computing is the process of modeling by which one uses non-representationalist 
things as *behavioral* stand-ins for other non-representationalist things. 
True, it's very difficult for us analogists to stop others from 
representationalizing our thing-in-the-loop things ... coming up with schema by 
which some things can be replaced by other things and classifying all the 
things that can stand in for some thing into symbolic classes. But we continue 
to *try*. This is why the concept of an analog is distinct from the concept of 
a metaphor.

Nick is the dyed-in-the-wool representationalist, not a stereotype of 
computationalists. The Lady doth protest too much. >8^D

On 11/11/21 10:29 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> And I quote:
> 
>  
> 
> When one proclaims oneself to be an antirepresentationalist, as proponents of 
> radical embodied cognitive science do, there are two things one might be 
> saying.  First, one might be making a claim about the nature of cognitive 
> systems, namely that nothing in them is a representation.  For the rest o 
> this chapter I will call this the metaphysical claim.  Second, one might be 
> claiming that our best explanation of cognitive systems will not involve 
> representations.  I will call this the epistemological claim.  These are 
> pretty clearly separate claims.  It is easy to imagine, for example, that the 
> metaphysical  claim is true and that humans really are just complex dynamical 
> systems, but they are so complex that the best way for us (with our limited 
> intellects) to explain them is by metaphorically or instrumentally ascribing 
> [to] them mental representation.  [Chemero, A. 2011. /Radical embodied 
> cognitive science./  MIT: Cambridge, MA. p67.] 
> 
>  
> 
> Given the pragmatic Maxim concerning meaning, /that the meaning of a term is 
> just those practices of investigation that the term’s use would imply/, how 
> is this passage not anti-pragmatic?  What other truth is there but a 
> metaphorically or instrumentally best explanation? 
> 
>  
> 
> Chemero’s overall position is that his RADICAL  embodied cognitive science is 
> the only rightful heir of the American Naturalism of which Peirce and James 
> are the progenitors.  Therefore you, many FRIAMMERS just might just see this 
> as a internecine dustup in the anti-representationalist coven, and because 
> you are computationalists (ergo, representationalists), ignore it.  That’s 
> OK.   Others may say “-ist, -ist, ist; blah, blah blah.”  That’s ok too.  But 
> perhaps those few of you who are members of the coven may want to help me 
> square this circle.  

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] Is Chemero TRULY a pragmatist.

Primarily: There can be an ultimately arrived at position that is not the prior 
waypoint positions. The 2 named claims (metaphysical and epistemological) might 
be "out of the way" waypoints toward that *other truth* which is neither 
metaphorical nor instrumental. From this perspective Chemero's gist seems like 
a targeting of that possibility ... an attempt to see further down the process. 
That sounds pragmatic to me. And even if we arrive at the latter first (a 
metaphorical or instrumental thing-a-majiggy), it doesn't imply that's the end 
of the settling out process. We don't know. We won't know ... until the 
universe ends in heat death. 

Secondarily: Computationalists need not be representationalists. Analog 
computing is the process of modeling by which one uses non-representationalist 
things as *behavioral* stand-ins for other non-representationalist things. 
True, it's very difficult for us analogists to stop others from 
representationalizing our thing-in-the-loop things ... coming up with schema by 
which some things can be replaced by other things and classifying all the 
things that can stand in for some thing into symbolic classes. But we continue 
to *try*. This is why the concept of an analog is distinct from the concept of 
a metaphor.

Nick is the dyed-in-the-wool representationalist, not a stereotype of 
computationalists. The Lady doth protest too much. >8^D

On 11/11/21 10:29 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> And I quote:
> 
>  
> 
> When one proclaims oneself to be an antirepresentationalist, as proponents of 
> radical embodied cognitive science do, there are two things one might be 
> saying.  First, one might be making a claim about the nature of cognitive 
> systems, namely that nothing in them is a representation.  For the rest o 
> this chapter I will call this the metaphysical claim.  Second, one might be 
> claiming that our best explanation of cognitive systems will not involve 
> representations.  I will call this the epistemological claim.  These are 
> pretty clearly separate claims.  It is easy to imagine, for example, that the 
> metaphysical  claim is true and that humans really are just complex dynamical 
> systems, but they are so complex that the best way for us (with our limited 
> intellects) to explain them is by metaphorically or instrumentally ascribing 
> [to] them mental representation.  [Chemero, A. 2011. /Radical embodied 
> cognitive science./  MIT: Cambridge, MA. p67.] 
> 
>  
> 
> Given the pragmatic Maxim concerning meaning, /that the meaning of a term is 
> just those practices of investigation that the term’s use would imply/, how 
> is this passage not anti-pragmatic?  What other truth is there but a 
> metaphorically or instrumentally best explanation? 
> 
>  
> 
> Chemero’s overall position is that his RADICAL  embodied cognitive science is 
> the only rightful heir of the American Naturalism of which Peirce and James 
> are the progenitors.  Therefore you, many FRIAMMERS just might just see this 
> as a internecine dustup in the anti-representationalist coven, and because 
> you are computationalists (ergo, representationalists), ignore it.  That’s 
> OK.   Others may say “-ist, -ist, ist; blah, blah blah.”  That’s ok too.  But 
> perhaps those few of you who are members of the coven may want to help me 
> square this circle.  

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

Steve, 

 

Well, I may be the victim of recent “neo- (aka archeo-) liberal” pod casts, but 
I really get the impression that the Chinese are going for it, boasting a 
Chinese Exceptionalism every bit as toxic as the one we have espoused.  From 
their point of view, this moment in history is the analogue of our moment after 
WW two.  They are ready to move ahead and there is nobody “out there” with the 
organization or resources to oppose them.  Why would they not take the 
opportunity?  The age of sino-hegemony is upon us.  We either pull our socks up 
politically or settle down to be the new Yugoslavia.  

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 11:58 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird 
flocks

 

Nick -

I asked this because the style of your statement felt like it had the flavor of 
Cold War Rhetoric which I was (also) raised on.   I (want to) think something 
more sophisticated (and interesting) is afoot today and that while I don't want 
to fall into the low-entropy stylization implied by this CCP Spectre, I *do* 
want to believe (or seek) something good that the CCP "great experiment" might 
have found while we were on our NeoLiberal hyperCapitalism "great experiment".  
 Is there room to learn something (humanist/humanitarian) from them?   I 
believe StephenG's familiarity with China in modern times (as well as others) 
may offer us some parallax?

- Steve

On 11/11/21 10:42 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com   
wrote:

Steve, 

 

No.  You are right on target for the thread.  My understanding of the present 
Government is that it is absolutely convinced that the centralist, 
technological, authoritarian model of government superior to other models and 
that this is their time to demonstrate that superiority.   I can really imagine 
some CCP leaders reading this research and thinking, “m!  THAT’S 
interesting.  In my back yard, back in the sixties, there was a teensy little 
CIA research station figuring out how to get animals –dogs, ravens, pigeons, 
donkeys, what-have-you, to carry bombs for them, using a combination of 
training and neural implants.  When the gave up the project, they left behind 
two gigantic glass carboys filled with pickled dogs heads.  

 

The Shadow Knows.

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam    On 
Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 11:22 AM
To: friam@redfish.com  
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird 
flocks

 

Nick -




Chinese science moves ahead in the development of the ideal society. 

I don't mean to be flip in my question, but have to ask if you are being flip 
in this statement?  Can you say more about what you think the Chinese 
gov't/people/culture might be "trying" to do, either overtly, or implicitly by 
simply following their individual goals/interests/desires?

I believe that the collective dynamics between Nations/Peoples are what is 
dominating the movement/evolution of humanity (cultural, not genetic) and that 
it is like an N-body problem in complexity and subtlety but is effected 
primarily through network relations.   

Like Gene Expression Networks, I believe that the more important "memes" (I 
think this is a useful but risky metaphorical binding that Dawkins coined for 
us most of a career (for me) ago) are those that are _regulatory_ which is why 
the likes of Trump and Bannon and Stone and the whole cabal of supervillians we 
are coping with these days focus on things like "fake news!" and "big lie!", 
etc.   In the spirit of McLuhan, "the medium IS the message", the medium itself 
becomes the _thing to manipulate_ like trying to disrupt the news credibility 
and the election process as well as becoming the definition of a tweetHole, and 
using Facebook to disseminate dysInfo etc.

I know this is an acute threadbend, you were trying to talk about birds and 
flocking and experimental techniques for studying same...  if you do feel 
inclined to answer, it is probably best to rethread.

https://jin.imrpress.com/article/2020/1757-448X/1757-448X-19-3-443.shtml 

If the robo-pigeon is a dominant member of the flock, you can make the flock do 
loop-di-loops by commanding the robo-pigeon to loop.  If subordinate, the 
loop-di-looping behavior of the robopigeon has no effect on the flock.  A 
robo-pigeon is one with a brain implant and pigeons are operated on AFTER their 
dominance in the flock has been determined. 

 

I hope I have this all right.  

Nick 






 
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. -

Re: [FRIAM] "chilling effect"

OK. Well, as Nick pointed out recently, the Constitution (just for example) was 
*intentionally* gamed ... even before it was written. So even before the game 
is defined, the "unintentional" side effects are already being considered as 
primary effects. So, what *seems* epi to one player isn't seen as epi to 
another player. In fact, if I can trick you into either not seeing some effect, 
say, for hundreds of years, then I'm likely to win the game.

The point being that the qualifier "epi", if applied to the actual thing in the 
world like a law or a stone, implies something much deeper (and I argue 
fictitious) than "epi" as applied to, say, a single player's understanding of 
the rules of some game.

Since chilling effect has such a long history and has been explicitly designed 
for, it's not "epi" if attributed to the things, themselves. But they could be 
considered tricks effectively played on various opponents.

In a totalitarian "closed world" game, it's sensible to attribute "epi" to 
parts of that game, bugs that become features. But in an open world game, there 
is no epi. There are no bugs. They're all features from day one even if some 
particular player is ignorant of them.

On 11/11/21 9:43 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> I saw it as "epi" in the sense that it started out NOT as part of the legal 
> system and emerged as a technique which eventually got formalized.   Perhaps 
> you are accurate that this transition moved it from epi to first-class, but I 
> see it as having emergent/epi origins?
> 
> I didn't decode Jon's URL far enough to determine if he cut/pasted it in the 
> middle of an edit attempt or not...  I *do* often, myself read the "talk" 
> pages of a wikipedia page when I'm curious about whether certain 
> controversial issues have been discussed about the page.

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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[FRIAM] Is Chemero TRULY a pragmatist.

And I quote:

 

When one proclaims oneself to be an antirepresentationalist, as proponents
of radical embodied cognitive science do, there are two things one might be
saying.  First, one might be making a claim about the nature of cognitive
systems, namely that nothing in them is a representation.  For the rest o
this chapter I will call this the metaphysical claim.  Second, one might be
claiming that our best explanation of cognitive systems will not involve
representations.  I will call this the epistemological claim.  These are
pretty clearly separate claims.  It is easy to imagine, for example, that
the metaphysical  claim is true and that humans really are just complex
dynamical systems, but they are so complex that the best way for us (with
our limited intellects) to explain them is by metaphorically or
instrumentally ascribing [to] them mental representation.  [Chemero, A.
2011. Radical embodied cognitive science.  MIT: Cambridge, MA. p67.]  

 

Given the pragmatic Maxim concerning meaning, that the meaning of a term is
just those practices of investigation that the term's use would imply, how
is this passage not anti-pragmatic?  What other truth is there but a
metaphorically or instrumentally best explanation?  

 

Chemero's overall position is that his RADICAL  embodied cognitive science
is the only rightful heir of the American Naturalism of which Peirce and
James are the progenitors.  Therefore you, many FRIAMMERS just might just
see this as a internecine dustup in the anti-representationalist coven, and
because you are computationalists (ergo, representationalists), ignore it.
That's OK.   Others may say "-ist, -ist, ist; blah, blah blah."  That's ok
too.  But perhaps those few of you who are members of the coven may want to
help me square this circle.  

 

Nick 

 

 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 


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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks


Nick -

I asked this because the style of your statement felt like it had the 
flavor of Cold War Rhetoric which I was (also) raised on.   I (want to) 
think something more sophisticated (and interesting) is afoot today and 
that while I don't want to fall into the low-entropy stylization implied 
by this CCP Spectre, I *do* want to believe (or seek) something good 
that the CCP "great experiment" might have found while we were on our 
NeoLiberal hyperCapitalism "great experiment".   Is there room to learn 
something (humanist/humanitarian) from them?   I believe StephenG's 
familiarity with China in modern times (as well as others) may offer us 
some parallax?


- Steve

On 11/11/21 10:42 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:


Steve,

No.  You are right on target for the thread.  My understanding of the 
present Government is that it is absolutely convinced that the 
centralist, technological, authoritarian model of government superior 
to other models and that this is their time to demonstrate that 
superiority.   I can really imagine some CCP leaders reading this 
research and thinking, “m!  THAT’S interesting.  In my back 
yard, back in the sixties, there was a teensy little CIA research 
station figuring out how to get animals –dogs, ravens, pigeons, 
donkeys, what-have-you, to carry bombs for them, using a combination 
of training and neural implants.  When the gave up the project, they 
left behind two gigantic glass carboys filled with pickled dogs heads.


The Shadow Knows.

Nick

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com 

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 



*From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
*Sent:* Thursday, November 11, 2021 11:22 AM
*To:* friam@redfish.com
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological 
studies of bird flocks


Nick -

Chinese science moves ahead in the development of the ideal society.

I don't mean to be flip in my question, but have to ask if you are 
being flip in this statement?  Can you say more about what you think 
the Chinese gov't/people/culture might be "trying" to do, either 
overtly, or implicitly by simply following their individual 
goals/interests/desires?


I believe that the collective dynamics between Nations/Peoples are 
what is dominating the movement/evolution of humanity (cultural, not 
genetic) and that it is like an N-body problem in complexity and 
subtlety but is effected primarily through network relations.


Like Gene Expression Networks, I believe that the more important 
"memes" (I think this is a useful but risky metaphorical binding that 
Dawkins coined for us most of a career (for me) ago) are those that 
are _regulatory_ which is why the likes of Trump and Bannon and Stone 
and the whole cabal of supervillians we are coping with these days 
focus on things like "fake news!" and "big lie!", etc.   In the spirit 
of McLuhan, "the medium IS the message", the medium itself becomes the 
_thing to manipulate_ like trying to disrupt the news credibility and 
the election process as well as becoming the definition of a 
tweetHole, and using Facebook to disseminate dysInfo etc.


I know this is an acute threadbend, you were trying to talk about 
birds and flocking and experimental techniques for studying same...  
if you do feel inclined to answer, it is probably best to rethread.


https://jin.imrpress.com/article/2020/1757-448X/1757-448X-19-3-443.shtml


If the robo-pigeon is a dominant member of the flock, you can make
the flock do loop-di-loops by commanding the robo-pigeon to loop. 
If subordinate, the loop-di-looping behavior of the robopigeon has
no effect on the flock.  A robo-pigeon is one with a brain implant
and pigeons are operated on AFTER their dominance in the flock has
been determined.

I hope I have this all right.

Nick



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Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

Spam/Robo calls have driven me (long ago) to virtually never having my 
ringer on or answering my phone when it does ring unless the caller is 
in my contact list AND I know who it is.   I can hardly remember how I 
coped with my landline in this regard which I let go nearly 20 years ago.


FWIW I had a co-worker/friend who left LANL about 1984 to go work for a 
budding RoboCall company...  She was a very clever/capable woman with a 
lot of humility and wit, but in spite of her self-deprecating 
description of the job/work, she took it anyway.   I suspect it may have 
been a stepping stone for her to solve the 2-body problem with her 
husband who perhaps was about to accept a job in a particular geographic 
locale where this may have been located.  Such a job would be the 
obvious/ideal telework job, but it *was* 1984 (Orwell references aside) 
and the state of the art seemed to be luggable thermal-print terminals 
with 1200 baud modems, so maybe not.   I can't even remember her last 
name, or I'd go look her up and grill her on how all that turned out for 
her!


On 11/11/21 10:11 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:

TELL ME ABOUT IT
Edd Angel uses nomo robo. because I mostly use a cellphone as my 
number would get at least that many multiple times a day, even spam 
texts! that cost real money. It got so fucking bad I joke that I have 
PTSD from them. I'm trying 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.youmail.android.vvm 
for my cellphone with ok results. Just ok. It's free.
Try something that's free. Or at least has a free trial before 
dropping 70 bucks to block numbnut spamers and collection callers and 
that free cruise. Or some IRS scam from the same 20 people in india.

I don't know how good century links thing is.

I "love" when they call at 6am. Almost funny because it's probly the 
same parastic leaches. The even "better" part is that it's not legal. 
Tmobiles built phone robo calling thing is almost useless I can tell 
you that much. It's so comically bad I know when I've reinstalled or 
updated android because it feels like seconds before I find out all 
the free cruise after selling a soul or 2. And unlikely to actually be 
free to. It's like browsing the web without an addblocker. My favorite 
is no matter how many creative ways I find to curse and motherfuck 
them and tell them to take me off the  spam list? I could be shouting 
at a wall for how well it works. Ie it does about jack.


On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:37 AM  wrote:

Ok.  I’m pissed.  4 spam calls before 9 this morning. Century Link
is offering me a call blocker for 70 bucks,
 which seems to be a bit
CHEAPER than Amazon for the same object.  Do these things work, or
is buying one just going to make me angrier when the calls keep
coming anyway?

N


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Re: [FRIAM] "chilling effect"

Evolution is replete with examples where a bug becomes a feeechah.  

n

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 11:44 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "chilling effect"

I saw it as "epi" in the sense that it started out NOT as part of the legal 
system and emerged as a technique which eventually got formalized.   Perhaps 
you are accurate that this transition moved it from epi to first-class, but I 
see it as having emergent/epi origins?

I didn't decode Jon's URL far enough to determine if he cut/pasted it in the 
middle of an edit attempt or not...  I *do* often, myself read the "talk" pages 
of a wikipedia page when I'm curious about whether certain controversial issues 
have been discussed about the page.

On 11/11/21 9:25 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> How is it epi? In both the SLAPP case and the SB8 case, it's a directly 
> targeted effect. And it has a long history in prior things like informal 
> policies for segregation and other law-gaming. There's no "epi" here.
>
> And what's with that Wikipedia link? Were you trying to edit the page but 
> your auth attempt failed?
>
> On 11/11/21 8:02 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
>> "Chilling Effect", now that's good epiphenomena. By that, I suppose I 
>> mean that "chilling effect" is more general than a simple gag or 
>> restraining order, it aims to inhibit or dissuade behavior. The 
>> content of chilling seems to live in the question of "why should a 
>> legal system dissuade or inhibit legal actions"? My first impression 
>> is that such a need arises in any legal system that is ultimately too 
>> rigid and unwieldy (or too ill-founded) to rigorously target the 
>> subject of its domain. So, probably, every non-trivial legal system.
>>
>> On the one hand, "chilling" seems a natural choice for better fitting 
>> the letter of the law to its "spirit", but doing so also creates a 
>> lever connecting goals to functions (a la' Charles and Thompson):
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect#:~:text=13%5D%5Bfailed%
>> 20verification%5D-,Chilling%20effects%20on%20Wikipedia%20users,-%5Bed
>> it%5D 
>> > %20verification%5D-,Chilling%20effects%20on%20Wikipedia%20users,-%5Be
>> dit%5D>
>


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I saw it as "epi" in the sense that it started out NOT as part of the
legal system and emerged as a technique which eventually got
formalized. Perhaps you are accurate that this transition moved it
from epi to first-class, but I see it as having emergent/epi origins?

I didn't decode Jon's URL far enough to determine if he cut/pasted it in
the middle of an edit attempt or not... I *do* often, myself read the
"talk" pages of a wikipedia page when I'm curious about whether certain
controversial issues have been discussed about the page.

On 11/11/21 9:25 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:

How is it epi? In both the SLAPP case and the SB8 case, it's a directly targeted effect.
And it has a long history in prior things like informal policies for segregation and
other law-gaming. There's no "epi" here.

And what's with that Wikipedia link? Were you trying to edit the page but your
auth attempt failed?

On 11/11/21 8:02 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:

"Chilling Effect", now that's good epiphenomena. By that, I suppose I
mean that "chilling effect" is more general than a simple gag or
restraining order, it aims to inhibit or dissuade behavior. The content
of chilling seems to live in the question of "why should a legal system
dissuade or inhibit legal actions"? My first impression is that such a
need arises in any legal system that is ultimately too rigid and unwieldy
(or too ill-founded) to rigorously target the subject of its domain. So,
probably, every non-trivial legal system.

On the one hand, "chilling" seems a natural choice for better fitting
the letter of the law to its "spirit", but doing so also creates a lever
connecting goals to functions (a la' Charles and Thompson):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect#:~:text=13%5D%5Bfailed%20verification%5D-,Chilling%20effects%20on%20Wikipedia%20users,-%5Bedit%5D

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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

Steve, 

 

No.  You are right on target for the thread.  My understanding of the present 
Government is that it is absolutely convinced that the centralist, 
technological, authoritarian model of government superior to other models and 
that this is their time to demonstrate that superiority.   I can really imagine 
some CCP leaders reading this research and thinking, “m!  THAT’S 
interesting.  In my back yard, back in the sixties, there was a teensy little 
CIA research station figuring out how to get animals –dogs, ravens, pigeons, 
donkeys, what-have-you, to carry bombs for them, using a combination of 
training and neural implants.  When the gave up the project, they left behind 
two gigantic glass carboys filled with pickled dogs heads.  

 

The Shadow Knows.

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 11:22 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird 
flocks

 

Nick -



Chinese science moves ahead in the development of the ideal society. 

I don't mean to be flip in my question, but have to ask if you are being flip 
in this statement?  Can you say more about what you think the Chinese 
gov't/people/culture might be "trying" to do, either overtly, or implicitly by 
simply following their individual goals/interests/desires?

I believe that the collective dynamics between Nations/Peoples are what is 
dominating the movement/evolution of humanity (cultural, not genetic) and that 
it is like an N-body problem in complexity and subtlety but is effected 
primarily through network relations.   

Like Gene Expression Networks, I believe that the more important "memes" (I 
think this is a useful but risky metaphorical binding that Dawkins coined for 
us most of a career (for me) ago) are those that are _regulatory_ which is why 
the likes of Trump and Bannon and Stone and the whole cabal of supervillians we 
are coping with these days focus on things like "fake news!" and "big lie!", 
etc.   In the spirit of McLuhan, "the medium IS the message", the medium itself 
becomes the _thing to manipulate_ like trying to disrupt the news credibility 
and the election process as well as becoming the definition of a tweetHole, and 
using Facebook to disseminate dysInfo etc.

I know this is an acute threadbend, you were trying to talk about birds and 
flocking and experimental techniques for studying same...  if you do feel 
inclined to answer, it is probably best to rethread.

https://jin.imrpress.com/article/2020/1757-448X/1757-448X-19-3-443.shtml 

If the robo-pigeon is a dominant member of the flock, you can make the flock do 
loop-di-loops by commanding the robo-pigeon to loop.  If subordinate, the 
loop-di-looping behavior of the robopigeon has no effect on the flock.  A 
robo-pigeon is one with a brain implant and pigeons are operated on AFTER their 
dominance in the flock has been determined. 

 

I hope I have this all right.  

Nick 





 
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Re: [FRIAM] "chilling effect"


Glen -

Thanks for this example/analysis... it seems to be an example of how the 
vernacular creeps upward (capillary action?) into the formal and even 
legal.   I assume judicial scholars have entire library shelves on the 
topic of how this happens, how to recognize it, how to effect or 
mitigate it.   It seems like it is also likely a mechanism leading to 
eventual collapse in the game of "punctuated equilibrium".


- Steve

So, I'd thought the conversations around SB8's "chilling effect" on abortion 
providers was merely a vernacular expression, not a legal one. E.g.

https://reason.com/volokh/2021/11/02/limiting-principles-and-sb8/

But it looks to this non-lawyer like anti-SLAPP laws, explicitly punishing law-gaming, 
targets a "chilling effect" directly. E.g.

https://theintercept.com/2021/11/10/proud-boys-antifascist-tweet-chad-loder-court/

Chilling free speech, which is an explicit right, has a different status than 
chilling abortion, which is only a derived right. But that chilling is 
explicitly considered at all. It evokes, for me, some sophisticated ethical 
considerations around scalable relations, from interpersonal up to corporate 
policies up to constitutional law ... maybe even down to eusocial genetics. 
That a bureaucratic technology might be a mechanism for navigating/scaling 
persnickety ethical issues is pretty interesting.




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Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

2021-11-11 Thread Frank Wimberly

I use Google's call screening app.  It asks callers to State their name and
reason for calling.  If they don't respond to that appropriately I block
their number. The app is free.  I forward my home phone to my cell phone so
that the same thing happens to people who call my home phone (landline).

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 9:37 AM  wrote:

> Ok.  I’m pissed.  4 spam calls before 9 this morning.  Century Link is
> offering me a call blocker for 70 bucks,
>  which seems to be a bit
> CHEAPER than Amazon for the same object.  Do these things work, or is
> buying one just going to make me angrier when the calls keep coming anyway?
>
> N
>
>
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>

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Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

2021-11-11 Thread Alexander Rasmus

Nick,

Are you looking at the V5000 call blocker? This will be of a medium amount
of use, as it looks like you can block calls with no caller id info. The
phone comes with a blacklist of 5000 numbers that you can add more numbers
too, but you'll have to do this after/while they're calling, so your phone
will still ring. This might help a little with scammers, but is unlikely to
do much for the political fundraising spam that makes up much of the spam I
get.

If you're on iphone it's pretty easy to set it up to only ring when a
contact calls (it'll still ring and go to voicemail, just in silent mode),
android looks like its a little more tedious:
https://mashtips.com/block-unknown-numbers-landline-iphone-android/

Best,
Alex

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:37 AM  wrote:

> Ok.  I’m pissed.  4 spam calls before 9 this morning.  Century Link is
> offering me a call blocker for 70 bucks,
>  which seems to be a bit
> CHEAPER than Amazon for the same object.  Do these things work, or is
> buying one just going to make me angrier when the calls keep coming anyway?
>
> N
>
>
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> archives:
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>

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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks


Nick -


Chinese science moves ahead in the development of the ideal society.

I don't mean to be flip in my question, but have to ask if you are being 
flip in this statement?  Can you say more about what you think the 
Chinese gov't/people/culture might be "trying" to do, either overtly, or 
implicitly by simply following their individual goals/interests/desires?


I believe that the collective dynamics between Nations/Peoples are what 
is dominating the movement/evolution of humanity (cultural, not genetic) 
and that it is like an N-body problem in complexity and subtlety but is 
effected primarily through network relations.


Like Gene Expression Networks, I believe that the more important "memes" 
(I think this is a useful but risky metaphorical binding that Dawkins 
coined for us most of a career (for me) ago) are those that are 
_regulatory_ which is why the likes of Trump and Bannon and Stone and 
the whole cabal of supervillians we are coping with these days focus on 
things like "fake news!" and "big lie!", etc.   In the spirit of 
McLuhan, "the medium IS the message", the medium itself becomes the 
_thing to manipulate_ like trying to disrupt the news credibility and 
the election process as well as becoming the definition of a tweetHole, 
and using Facebook to disseminate dysInfo etc.


I know this is an acute threadbend, you were trying to talk about birds 
and flocking and experimental techniques for studying same...  if you do 
feel inclined to answer, it is probably best to rethread.



https://jin.imrpress.com/article/2020/1757-448X/1757-448X-19-3-443.shtml

If the robo-pigeon is a dominant member of the flock, you can make the 
flock do loop-di-loops by commanding the robo-pigeon to loop.  If 
subordinate, the loop-di-looping behavior of the robopigeon has no 
effect on the flock.  A robo-pigeon is one with a brain implant and 
pigeons are operated on AFTER their dominance in the flock has been 
determined.


I hope I have this all right.

Nick


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Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

2021-11-11 Thread Edward Angel

We get nomobobo for free from Comcast on our landline. It works real well with 
known numbers in their database and with numbers we add. We still get a lot of 
calls that use false local numbers that nomorobo can’t really block. We don’t 
add these numbers to the nomorobo database since they are generated randomly by 
the scammers and are probably not used more than once.

Ed
___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel 


> On Nov 11, 2021, at 10:11 AM, Gillian Densmore  wrote:
> 
> TELL ME ABOUT IT
> Edd Angel uses nomo robo. because I mostly use a cellphone as my number would 
> get at least that many multiple times a day, even spam texts! that cost real 
> money. It got so fucking bad I joke that I have PTSD from them. I'm trying 
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.youmail.android.vvm 
>  for 
> my cellphone with ok results. Just ok. It's free. 
> Try something that's free. Or at least has a free trial before dropping 70 
> bucks to block numbnut spamers and collection callers and that free cruise. 
> Or some IRS scam from the same 20 people in india.
> I don't know how good century links thing is. 
> 
> I "love" when they call at 6am. Almost funny because it's probly the same 
> parastic leaches. The even "better" part is that it's not legal. Tmobiles 
> built phone robo calling thing is almost useless I can tell you that much. 
> It's so comically bad I know when I've reinstalled or updated android because 
> it feels like seconds before I find out all the free cruise after selling a 
> soul or 2. And unlikely to actually be free to. It's like browsing the web 
> without an addblocker. My favorite is no matter how many creative ways I find 
> to curse and motherfuck them and tell them to take me off the  spam list? I 
> could be shouting at a wall for how well it works. Ie it does about jack. 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:37 AM  > wrote:
> Ok.  I’m pissed.  4 spam calls before 9 this morning.  Century Link is 
> offering me a call blocker for 70 bucks, 
>  which seems to be a bit CHEAPER 
> than Amazon for the same object.  Do these things work, or is buying one just 
> going to make me angrier when the calls keep coming anyway?
> 
> N
> 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

2021-11-11 Thread Gillian Densmore

TELL ME ABOUT IT
Edd Angel uses nomo robo. because I mostly use a cellphone as my number
would get at least that many multiple times a day, even spam texts! that
cost real money. It got so fucking bad I joke that I have PTSD from them.
I'm trying
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.youmail.android.vvm for
my cellphone with ok results. Just ok. It's free.
Try something that's free. Or at least has a free trial before dropping 70
bucks to block numbnut spamers and collection callers and that free cruise.
Or some IRS scam from the same 20 people in india.
I don't know how good century links thing is.

I "love" when they call at 6am. Almost funny because it's probly the same
parastic leaches. The even "better" part is that it's not legal. Tmobiles
built phone robo calling thing is almost useless I can tell you that much.
It's so comically bad I know when I've reinstalled or updated android
because it feels like seconds before I find out all the free cruise after
selling a soul or 2. And unlikely to actually be free to. It's like
browsing the web without an addblocker. My favorite is no matter how many
creative ways I find to curse and motherfuck them and tell them to take me
off the  spam list? I could be shouting at a wall for how well it works. Ie
it does about jack.

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:37 AM  wrote:

> Ok.  I’m pissed.  4 spam calls before 9 this morning.  Century Link is
> offering me a call blocker for 70 bucks,
>  which seems to be a bit
> CHEAPER than Amazon for the same object.  Do these things work, or is
> buying one just going to make me angrier when the calls keep coming anyway?
>
> N
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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> archives:
>  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>

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[FRIAM] Call blockers

Ok.  I'm pissed.  4 spam calls before 9 this morning.  Century Link is
offering me a call blocker for 70 bucks,
  which seems to be a bit CHEAPER
than Amazon for the same object.  Do these things work, or is buying one
just going to make me angrier when the calls keep coming anyway?

N


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Re: [FRIAM] "chilling effect"

How is it epi? In both the SLAPP case and the SB8 case, it's a directly 
targeted effect. And it has a long history in prior things like informal 
policies for segregation and other law-gaming. There's no "epi" here.

And what's with that Wikipedia link? Were you trying to edit the page but your 
auth attempt failed? 

On 11/11/21 8:02 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> "Chilling Effect", now that's good epiphenomena. By that, I suppose I
> mean that "chilling effect" is more general than a simple gag or
> restraining order, it aims to inhibit or dissuade behavior. The content
> of chilling seems to live in the question of "why should a legal system
> dissuade or inhibit legal actions"? My first impression is that such a
> need arises in any legal system that is ultimately too rigid and unwieldy
> (or too ill-founded) to rigorously target the subject of its domain. So,
> probably, every non-trivial legal system.
> 
> On the one hand, "chilling" seems a natural choice for better fitting
> the letter of the law to its "spirit", but doing so also creates a lever
> connecting goals to functions (a la' Charles and Thompson):
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect#:~:text=13%5D%5Bfailed%20verification%5D-,Chilling%20effects%20on%20Wikipedia%20users,-%5Bedit%5D
>  
> 


-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] "chilling effect"

2021-11-11 Thread Jon Zingale

"Chilling Effect", now that's good epiphenomena. By that, I suppose I
mean that "chilling effect" is more general than a simple gag or
restraining order, it aims to inhibit or dissuade behavior. The content
of chilling seems to live in the question of "why should a legal system
dissuade or inhibit legal actions"? My first impression is that such a
need arises in any legal system that is ultimately too rigid and unwieldy
(or too ill-founded) to rigorously target the subject of its domain. So,
probably, every non-trivial legal system.

On the one hand, "chilling" seems a natural choice for better fitting
the letter of the law to its "spirit", but doing so also creates a lever
connecting goals to functions (a la' Charles and Thompson):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect#:~:text=13%5D%5Bfailed%20verification%5D-,Chilling%20effects%20on%20Wikipedia%20users,-%5Bedit%5D

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[FRIAM] "chilling effect"