Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

[thompnickson2]

Thanks, Gil, and others for assistance and commiseration.  

 

In the end, the most effective method may be to manage my own annoyance.  

 

The thing that I loved about the Call Blocker (69$) was the big red button.  I 
might have gotten 69$ of pleasure out punching that button.

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2021 5:02 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

 

Nick. Know that you not alone on robodialers. A youtuber from canada called 
[different from Linus the Linux guy maker]. This linus runs a company called 
LKMG it basically does reviewes  and industry side back end work.. He has a 20 
minut long rant about the problem. What set him off was how he owns something 
call team viewer, and is fine with the version he has. However their PR, Beta, 
sales marketing, everyone people  for  several months called first at 10 [first 
not home, then was ish but  busy with setting his companies computers up for 
remote work.  First it was 10, then 9, then eventually 4-5am. So he called them 
and read them riot act. and eventually tolled them on twitter do this again and 
he'll see them in court. 

Today I had 10 calls in a row, about your car insurance, at 7am. I was asleep 
then! 

Reported the number to Google as spam, it's whack-a-mole.

 

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 2:18 PM Gillian Densmore mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Nick Fwiw. Me being, me. I for a bit I used this clip to stop robodiallers. 
because  it seemed amusing and appropriate: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyenRCJ_4Ww

I guess it worked for about 12 weeks didn't get a single spam call.

 

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 2:12 PM Gillian Densmore mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Sounds nobel prize worthy!  

h  sounds of "fast"  internet in the 80s:

nee-nee-nee-neeh-k-hisss-static- static- static- static- pop his screech  
pop. 

My "fix" for robocalls is to let people I know msg me, i tend to screen calls 
because of them-it works for all but 1 person. lol she calls it the most zoomer 
thing, and please call, because she spends her life on zoom atm.

 

lol 😂 now, steve, how do you get calls when Tmobile or Verizon is them? or 
worse your cellphones battery is out? have a old school back up? or no?

 

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:49 AM Steve Smith mailto:sasm...@swcp.com> > wrote:

Spam/Robo calls have driven me (long ago) to virtually never having my ringer 
on or answering my phone when it does ring unless the caller is in my contact 
list AND I know who it is.   I can hardly remember how I coped with my landline 
in this regard which I let go nearly 20 years ago.

FWIW I had a co-worker/friend who left LANL about 1984 to go work for a budding 
RoboCall company...  She was a very clever/capable woman with a lot of humility 
and wit, but in spite of her self-deprecating description of the job/work, she 
took it anyway.   I suspect it may have been a stepping stone for her to solve 
the 2-body problem with her husband who perhaps was about to accept a job in a 
particular geographic locale where this may have been located.  Such a job 
would be the obvious/ideal telework job, but it *was* 1984 (Orwell references 
aside) and the state of the art seemed to be luggable thermal-print terminals 
with 1200 baud modems, so maybe not.   I can't even remember her last name, or 
I'd go look her up and grill her on how all that turned out for her!

On 11/11/21 10:11 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:

TELL ME ABOUT IT

Edd Angel uses nomo robo. because I mostly use a cellphone as my number would 
get at least that many multiple times a day, even spam texts! that cost real 
money. It got so fucking bad I joke that I have PTSD from them. I'm trying 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.youmail.android.vvm for my 
cellphone with ok results. Just ok. It's free. 

Try something that's free. Or at least has a free trial before dropping 70 
bucks to block numbnut spamers and collection callers and that free cruise. Or 
some IRS scam from the same 20 people in india.

I don't know how good century links thing is. 

 

I "love" when they call at 6am. Almost funny because it's probly the same 
parastic leaches. The even "better" part is that it's not legal. Tmobiles built 
phone robo calling thing is almost useless I can tell you that much. It's so 
comically bad I know when I've reinstalled or updated android because it feels 
like seconds before I find out all the free cruise after selling a soul or 2. 
And unlikely to actually be free to. It's like browsing the web without an 
addblocker. My favorite is no matter how many creative ways I find to curse and 
motherfuck them and tell them to take me off the  spam list? I could be 
shouting at a wall for how well it works. Ie it

Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[thompnickson2]

“与其被谎言亲吻，不如被真相打耳光。”

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2021 1:32 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird 
flocks

這在 IRC 中會容易得多。

On 11/12/21 11:27 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> "这就是你想让我说的吗？ 我们现在可以在中国推出我们的软件吗?"
> 
> 是的，你做得很好。尝一口香港。


-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[thompnickson2]

"Is that what you want me to say? Can we launch our software in China now?" 
Yes, you did a great job. A taste of Hong Kong.”

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Jon Zingale
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2021 1:28 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird 
flocks

 

"这就是你想让我说的吗？ 我们现在可以在中国推出我们的软件吗?"

 

是的，你做得很好。尝一口香港。


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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[thompnickson2]

Ok.  Good.  That’s interesting.  Now: what is the whole policy toward china 
that that point of view suggests?  NOT a rhetorical question. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2021 1:02 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird 
flocks

 

Nick,

> Is Hong Kong not being digested as we speak?  Is pressure not increasing on 
> the Taiwanese? 

 
An orthogonal perspective is healing and unification post-occupation and 
aggression by foreign powers. ie:

*   North/South Vietnam
*   Manchuria/China
*   East/West Germany
*   North/South Korea

I am concerned about US military buildup in Taiwan 

  after agreeing to one china policy 
  in 1979. How did we feel 
about USSR flexing its muscle in Cuba? 

 

-Stephen

这就是你想让我说的吗？ 我们现在可以在中国推出我们的软件吗？ 


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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[Frank Wimberly]

Hi Steve,

What's "SA"?  Sonora?  The usual abbreviation is "Son", the two-letter code
is "SO".  Or are you referring to something else?

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 4:20 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> I have a friend who cut her teeth as a lawyer (finance) in Hong Kong maybe
> 15 years ago... she has since returned to Australia (via a gig in Japan)
> and *hates* what is happening in HK and can list endlessly the
> friends/colleagues whose lives have been damaged/disrupted by the changes
> there.
>
> This being said, however, it *does* seem like what is happening there is
> the end of a century plus long occupation/colonization.  She and her
> friends/colleagues are all professional/merchant class and none are
> ethnically Chinese.  Not surprising the changes are mostly downside to them?
>
> Juarez, Tijuana, Nogales SA all used to feel like US colonies in many
> ways.   They were "returned" to MX proper to some degree by the War on
> Drugs and the Drug Cartel action and now becoming portals for attempted
> immigration from yet more southerly/impoverished countries.   I have a
> lifelong friend who used to run the Zenith assembly plant in Agua Prieta
> SA...  she would claim that their presence there for several decades was a
> huge boon to the people there, as was their strategic (for Zenith, not the
> local economy) withdrawal.  Of course she saw it that way.   My
> brother-in-law who recently retired as the longest-tenured employee (~50
> years) of Freeport McMorran (who bought him up when they bought up Phelps
> Dodge) would insist that it is all "upside" for the people who once lived
> on the landscape where their mega pit-mines were developed and where their
> private armies (FPM,not PD) were in charge of all the necessary "rousting"
> to get and keep those mines running/expanding/profit-maximized.
>
> But back to Nick's point (or to yet another of my tangents from his
> point)...   the Buddhist phrase "World as battleground, world as trap,
> world as lover, world as self" seems relevant?  If we consider these
> contexts *only* as traps and battlegrounds, that is pretty much what they
> will be.  Stephen G through his former (and some present) work and familial
> relations in China has chose to *also* look at them (country, people,
> government) through the lenses of "Lover" and "Self)?
>
>
> On 11/12/21 12:56 PM, Edward Angel wrote:
>
> We were in Taiwan during their first truly democratic election. The U.S.
> media was filled with dire predictions of imminent war. The reality was
> that no one in Taiwan was worried about an attack. China and Taiwan, in
> spite of the rhetoric, were deeply coupled economically and war would be
> disastrous for both sides. The only evidence the Taiwanese newspapers
> reported in as a result of the “tensions” was an increase in the number of
> prostitutes arriving in Taiwan from Macao and Hong Kong. However, we did
> note that a foreign tourist was arrested for taking down an election banner
> as a souvenir which was regarded as serious offense. I doubt things are
> much different now.
>
> We also spent time in Hong Kong just before and just after it going back
> to China. For a while not much changed and there were restrictions that
> prevented mainland Chinese from entering Hong Kong. At that time, China was
> very dependent on Hong Kong as its economic outlet to the rest of the world
> and didn’t want to threaten that status. It’s very different now as China
> has developed many other outlets and consequently they are willing to treat
> Hong Kong like the rest of China.
>
> Ed
> ___
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
> (ARTS Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
> On Nov 12, 2021, at 12:02 PM, Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
>
> Nick,
>
> > Is Hong Kong not being digested as we speak?  Is pressure not increasing
> on the Taiwanese?
>
> An orthogonal perspective is healing and unification post-occupation and
> aggression by foreign powers. ie:
>
>- North/South Vietnam
>- Manchuria/China
>- East/West Germany
>- North/South Korea
>
> I am concerned about US military buildup in Taiwan
> 
> after agreeing to one china policy
>  in 1979. How did we feel
> about USSR flexing its muscle in Cuba?
>
> -Stephen
>
> 这就是你想让我说的吗？ 我们现在可以在中国推出我们的软件吗？
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[Steve Smith]

I have a friend who cut her teeth as a lawyer (finance) in Hong Kong 
maybe 15 years ago... she has since returned to Australia (via a gig in 
Japan) and *hates* what is happening in HK and can list endlessly the 
friends/colleagues whose lives have been damaged/disrupted by the 
changes there.


This being said, however, it *does* seem like what is happening there is 
the end of a century plus long occupation/colonization. She and her 
friends/colleagues are all professional/merchant class and none are 
ethnically Chinese.  Not surprising the changes are mostly downside to them?


Juarez, Tijuana, Nogales SA all used to feel like US colonies in many 
ways.   They were "returned" to MX proper to some degree by the War on 
Drugs and the Drug Cartel action and now becoming portals for attempted 
immigration from yet more southerly/impoverished countries.   I have a 
lifelong friend who used to run the Zenith assembly plant in Agua Prieta 
SA...  she would claim that their presence there for several decades was 
a huge boon to the people there, as was their strategic (for Zenith, not 
the local economy) withdrawal.  Of course she saw it that way.   My 
brother-in-law who recently retired as the longest-tenured employee (~50 
years) of Freeport McMorran (who bought him up when they bought up 
Phelps Dodge) would insist that it is all "upside" for the people who 
once lived on the landscape where their mega pit-mines were developed 
and where their private armies (FPM,not PD) were in charge of all the 
necessary "rousting" to get and keep those mines 
running/expanding/profit-maximized.


But back to Nick's point (or to yet another of my tangents from his 
point)...   the Buddhist phrase "World as battleground, world as trap, 
world as lover, world as self" seems relevant?  If we consider these 
contexts *only* as traps and battlegrounds, that is pretty much what 
they will be.  Stephen G through his former (and some present) work and 
familial relations in China has chose to *also* look at them (country, 
people, government) through the lenses of "Lover" and "Self)?



On 11/12/21 12:56 PM, Edward Angel wrote:
We were in Taiwan during their first truly democratic election. The 
U.S. media was filled with dire predictions of imminent war. The 
reality was that no one in Taiwan was worried about an attack. China 
and Taiwan, in spite of the rhetoric, were deeply coupled economically 
and war would be disastrous for both sides. The only evidence the 
Taiwanese newspapers reported in as a result of the “tensions” was an 
increase in the number of prostitutes arriving in Taiwan from Macao 
and Hong Kong. However, we did note that a foreign tourist was 
arrested for taking down an election banner as a souvenir which was 
regarded as serious offense. I doubt things are much different now.


We also spent time in Hong Kong just before and just after it going 
back to China. For a while not much changed and there were 
restrictions that prevented mainland Chinese from entering Hong Kong. 
At that time, China was very dependent on Hong Kong as its economic 
outlet to the rest of the world and didn’t want to threaten that 
status. It’s very different now as China has developed many other 
outlets and consequently they are willing to treat Hong Kong like the 
rest of China.


Ed
___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory 
(ARTS Lab)

Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)an...@cs.unm.edu
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Nov 12, 2021, at 12:02 PM, Stephen Guerin 
 wrote:


Nick,

> Is Hong Kong not being digested as we speak?  Is pressure not 
increasing on the Taiwanese?


An orthogonal perspective is healing and unification post-occupation 
and aggression by foreign powers. ie:


  * North/South Vietnam
  * Manchuria/China
  * East/West Germany
  * North/South Korea

I am concerned about US military buildup in Taiwan 
 
after agreeing to one china policy 
 in 1979. How did we 
feel about USSR flexing its muscle in Cuba?


-Stephen

这就是你想让我说的吗？ 我们现在可以在中国推出我们的软件吗？

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Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

[Gillian Densmore]

Nick. Know that you not alone on robodialers. A youtuber from canada called
[different from Linus the Linux guy maker]. This linus runs a company
called LKMG it basically does reviewes  and industry side back end work..
He has a 20 minut long rant about the problem. What set him off was how he
owns something call team viewer, and is fine with the version he has.
However their PR, Beta, sales marketing, everyone people  for  several
months called first at 10 [first not home, then was ish but  busy with
setting his companies computers up for remote work.  First it was 10, then
9, then eventually 4-5am. So he called them and read them riot act. and
eventually tolled them on twitter do this again and he'll see them in
court.
Today I had 10 calls in a row, about your car insurance, at 7am. I was
asleep then!
Reported the number to Google as spam, it's whack-a-mole.

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 2:18 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Nick Fwiw. Me being, me. I for a bit I used this clip to stop
> robodiallers. because  it seemed amusing and appropriate:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyenRCJ_4Ww
> I guess it worked for about 12 weeks didn't get a single spam call.
>
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 2:12 PM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> Sounds nobel prize worthy!
>> h  sounds of "fast"  internet in the 80s:
>> nee-nee-nee-neeh-k-hisss-static- static- static- static- pop his
>> screech  pop.
>> My "fix" for robocalls is to let people I know msg me, i tend to screen
>> calls because of them-it works for all but 1 person. lol she calls it the
>> most zoomer thing, and please call, because she spends her life on zoom atm.
>>
>> lol 😂 now, steve, how do you get calls when Tmobile or Verizon is them?
>> or worse your cellphones battery is out? have a old school back up? or no?
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:49 AM Steve Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> Spam/Robo calls have driven me (long ago) to virtually never having my
>>> ringer on or answering my phone when it does ring unless the caller is in
>>> my contact list AND I know who it is.   I can hardly remember how I coped
>>> with my landline in this regard which I let go nearly 20 years ago.
>>>
>>> FWIW I had a co-worker/friend who left LANL about 1984 to go work for a
>>> budding RoboCall company...  She was a very clever/capable woman with a lot
>>> of humility and wit, but in spite of her self-deprecating description of
>>> the job/work, she took it anyway.   I suspect it may have been a stepping
>>> stone for her to solve the 2-body problem with her husband who perhaps was
>>> about to accept a job in a particular geographic locale where this may have
>>> been located.  Such a job would be the obvious/ideal telework job, but it
>>> *was* 1984 (Orwell references aside) and the state of the art seemed to be
>>> luggable thermal-print terminals with 1200 baud modems, so maybe not.   I
>>> can't even remember her last name, or I'd go look her up and grill her on
>>> how all that turned out for her!
>>> On 11/11/21 10:11 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>>>
>>> TELL ME ABOUT IT
>>> Edd Angel uses nomo robo. because I mostly use a cellphone as my number
>>> would get at least that many multiple times a day, even spam texts! that
>>> cost real money. It got so fucking bad I joke that I have PTSD from them.
>>> I'm trying
>>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.youmail.android.vvm
>>> for my cellphone with ok results. Just ok. It's free.
>>> Try something that's free. Or at least has a free trial before dropping
>>> 70 bucks to block numbnut spamers and collection callers and that free
>>> cruise. Or some IRS scam from the same 20 people in india.
>>> I don't know how good century links thing is.
>>>
>>> I "love" when they call at 6am. Almost funny because it's probly the
>>> same parastic leaches. The even "better" part is that it's not legal.
>>> Tmobiles built phone robo calling thing is almost useless I can tell you
>>> that much. It's so comically bad I know when I've reinstalled or updated
>>> android because it feels like seconds before I find out all the free cruise
>>> after selling a soul or 2. And unlikely to actually be free to. It's like
>>> browsing the web without an addblocker. My favorite is no matter how many
>>> creative ways I find to curse and motherfuck them and tell them to take me
>>> off the  spam list? I could be shouting at a wall for how well it works. Ie
>>> it does about jack.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:37 AM  wrote:
>>>
 Ok.  I’m pissed.  4 spam calls before 9 this morning.  Century Link is
 offering me a call blocker for 70 bucks,
  which seems to be a bit
 CHEAPER than Amazon for the same object.  Do these things work, or is
 buying one just going to make me angrier when the calls keep coming anyway?

 N


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Re: [FRIAM] Is Chemero TRULY a pragmatist.

[thompnickson2]

Dear colleagues, 

 

Metaphysics and Pragmatism

 

Today's discussion clarified many things for me, including why Peirce and
James's group was called The Metaphysical Club. Pragmatism IS a metaphysics,
but one that collapses metaphysics onto epistemology.  The meaning of a term
is the effect that it has on inquiry and the meaning of "truth", therefore,
is that it sends inquirers looking for a single answer to their questions.
That aspiration will be hopeless in most cases, but as an aspiration it has
the effect to draw people into discourse.  

What Chemero's passage misses is that there is no further metaphysics to be
had, after one has announced oneself to be an "American Naturalist" as he
calls it, or pragmatist, as I would call it.   Once a pragmatist, you have
already spent your metaphysical wad: you have already committed yourself to
a search for truths wherever they may be found and however rarely they may
be encountered.  

Where you got me is probably anathema to you all, but thanks for getting me
there, anyway. 

 

Nick   

 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: thompnicks...@gmail.com  
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 12:30 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Cc: 'Mike Bybee' 
Subject: Is Chemero TRULY a pragmatist.

 

And I quote:

 

When one proclaims oneself to be an antirepresentationalist, as proponents
of radical embodied cognitive science do, there are two things one might be
saying.  First, one might be making a claim about the nature of cognitive
systems, namely that nothing in them is a representation.  For the rest o
this chapter I will call this the metaphysical claim.  Second, one might be
claiming that our best explanation of cognitive systems will not involve
representations.  I will call this the epistemological claim.  These are
pretty clearly separate claims.  It is easy to imagine, for example, that
the metaphysical  claim is true and that humans really are just complex
dynamical systems, but they are so complex that the best way for us (with
our limited intellects) to explain them is by metaphorically or
instrumentally ascribing [to] them mental representation.  [Chemero, A.
2011. Radical embodied cognitive science.  MIT: Cambridge, MA. p67.]  

 

Given the pragmatic Maxim concerning meaning, that the meaning of a term is
just those practices of investigation that the term's use would imply, how
is this passage not anti-pragmatic?  What other truth is there but a
metaphorically or instrumentally best explanation?  

 

Chemero's overall position is that his RADICAL  embodied cognitive science
is the only rightful heir of the American Naturalism of which Peirce and
James are the progenitors.  Therefore you, many FRIAMMERS just might just
see this as a internecine dustup in the anti-representationalist coven, and
because you are computationalists (ergo, representationalists), ignore it.
That's OK.   Others may say "-ist, -ist, ist; blah, blah blah."  That's ok
too.  But perhaps those few of you who are members of the coven may want to
help me square this circle.  

 

Nick 

 

 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 


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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[Frank Wimberly]

Interesting, Ed.  I remember the arrest you mention.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021, 12:56 PM Edward Angel  wrote:

> We were in Taiwan during their first truly democratic election. The U.S.
> media was filled with dire predictions of imminent war. The reality was
> that no one in Taiwan was worried about an attack. China and Taiwan, in
> spite of the rhetoric, were deeply coupled economically and war would be
> disastrous for both sides. The only evidence the Taiwanese newspapers
> reported in as a result of the “tensions” was an increase in the number of
> prostitutes arriving in Taiwan from Macao and Hong Kong. However, we did
> note that a foreign tourist was arrested for taking down an election banner
> as a souvenir which was regarded as serious offense. I doubt things are
> much different now.
>
> We also spent time in Hong Kong just before and just after it going back
> to China. For a while not much changed and there were restrictions that
> prevented mainland Chinese from entering Hong Kong. At that time, China was
> very dependent on Hong Kong as its economic outlet to the rest of the world
> and didn’t want to threaten that status. It’s very different now as China
> has developed many other outlets and consequently they are willing to treat
> Hong Kong like the rest of China.
>
> Ed
> ___
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
> (ARTS Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
> On Nov 12, 2021, at 12:02 PM, Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
>
> Nick,
>
> > Is Hong Kong not being digested as we speak?  Is pressure not increasing
> on the Taiwanese?
>
> An orthogonal perspective is healing and unification post-occupation and
> aggression by foreign powers. ie:
>
>- North/South Vietnam
>- Manchuria/China
>- East/West Germany
>- North/South Korea
>
> I am concerned about US military buildup in Taiwan
> 
> after agreeing to one china policy
>  in 1979. How did we feel
> about USSR flexing its muscle in Cuba?
>
> -Stephen
>
> 这就是你想让我说的吗？ 我们现在可以在中国推出我们的软件吗？
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[Edward Angel]

We were in Taiwan during their first truly democratic election. The U.S. media 
was filled with dire predictions of imminent war. The reality was that no one 
in Taiwan was worried about an attack. China and Taiwan, in spite of the 
rhetoric, were deeply coupled economically and war would be disastrous for both 
sides. The only evidence the Taiwanese newspapers reported in as a result of 
the “tensions” was an increase in the number of prostitutes arriving in Taiwan 
from Macao and Hong Kong. However, we did note that a foreign tourist was 
arrested for taking down an election banner as a souvenir which was regarded as 
serious offense. I doubt things are much different now.

We also spent time in Hong Kong just before and just after it going back to 
China. For a while not much changed and there were restrictions that prevented 
mainland Chinese from entering Hong Kong. At that time, China was very 
dependent on Hong Kong as its economic outlet to the rest of the world and 
didn’t want to threaten that status. It’s very different now as China has 
developed many other outlets and consequently they are willing to treat Hong 
Kong like the rest of China.

Ed
___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel 


> On Nov 12, 2021, at 12:02 PM, Stephen Guerin  
> wrote:
> 
> Nick,
> 
> > Is Hong Kong not being digested as we speak?  Is pressure not increasing on 
> > the Taiwanese? 
>  
> An orthogonal perspective is healing and unification post-occupation and 
> aggression by foreign powers. ie:
> North/South Vietnam
> Manchuria/China
> East/West Germany
> North/South Korea
> I am concerned about US military buildup in Taiwan 
> 
>  after agreeing to one china policy 
>  in 1979. How did we feel 
> about USSR flexing its muscle in Cuba? 
> 
> -Stephen
> 
> 这就是你想让我说的吗？ 我们现在可以在中国推出我们的软件吗？ 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

這在 IRC 中會容易得多。

On 11/12/21 11:27 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> "这就是你想让我说的吗？ 我们现在可以在中国推出我们的软件吗?"
> 
> 是的，你做得很好。尝一口香港。


-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[Jon Zingale]

"这就是你想让我说的吗？ 我们现在可以在中国推出我们的软件吗?"

是的，你做得很好。尝一口香港。

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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[Stephen Guerin]

Nick,

> Is Hong Kong not being digested as we speak?  Is pressure not increasing
on the Taiwanese?

An orthogonal perspective is healing and unification post-occupation and
aggression by foreign powers. ie:

   - North/South Vietnam
   - Manchuria/China
   - East/West Germany
   - North/South Korea

I am concerned about US military buildup in Taiwan

after agreeing to one china policy
 in 1979. How did we feel
about USSR flexing its muscle in Cuba?

-Stephen

这就是你想让我说的吗？ 我们现在可以在中国推出我们的软件吗？

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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[Steve Smith]

As an erstwhile tennis player, I have to say "spin matters"... when the 
ball comes over the net and I set my feet and body to return it, swing 
my racket with optimal trajectory to intercept it, all that would seem 
to matter is "Is my perception of the trajectory of the ball true, and 
will my racket intercept it in the 'sweet spot' such that I can return 
it well?"    Up to the *spin* on the ball, all that "truth of 
trajectory" is accurate. Frank may note that the spin on the ball *on 
the bounce* is more important than the spin when it hits my racket, 
which just changes the calculus of the "truth of the trajectory" to "pre 
bounce", but still holds.


When Nick offers these "factoids" about China's behaviour, posture, 
claims, which Epoch Times or DJT might have relayed as well, I would 
claim that they have a "spin" on them which is either detectible in the 
flight of the ball (aerodynamics) or it's bounce, but ultimately on how 
it responds to my racket when I try to return (or perhaps just deflect 
or capture it?).  Observing DJT/Epoch/NST's racket action as the ball 
leaves gives me some good hints about spin, as well as aerodynamic 
flight, bounce, etc.  Also knowing NST/AlanWakim/GEPR/DJT's history with 
various shots they may make gives me some hints as to whether the 
arm/wrist/racket flourish was actually the spin I percieved or some 
other spin I might be spoofed into expecting.


So I guess the point is more "Partial Truth".    Nick's list of factoids 
might be arguable, and the context in which they are offered might also 
be arguable, but more important to me is "what is the thesis, and what 
is the intent?".  DJT and Wakim are likely to be trying to generate a 
certain kind of fear/judgement that they then can use to further one or 
more facets of an agenda we don't trust and perhaps implicitly fear.   
NST is more likely (my judgement/guess) to be honest in any 
fear-mongering/awfulizing I might attribute to him... he truly is 
worried that the Red Scare monster stories of his youth are in fact real 
and coming true (perhaps DJT and Wakim have some real fear going on as 
well). GEPR (in my experience) is more likely "just" stirring the pot, 
trying to get a more interesting conversation going, and if he has an 
agenda to try to convince us of something with those volleys across the 
net, that agenda is somewhat contingent and episodic? and likely to 
defer to a larger agenda which might well have a strong component of 
curiosity and playfulness in pursuit of that curiosity, even if the 
balls sting when they smack you (maybe racketball is more the correct 
target domain?).


So... back to Nick...  Are you steelmanning or strawmanning 
China/Xi/CCP/etc or is there a tin/copper/bronze/steelman you could 
offer that isn't Red Scare all the way down?


   "Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get
   you"

I'm not trying to claim that there is nothing to be askeered of from 
China, but rather more that what we are likely to flinch away from on 
the face of their statements and actions may well not be the most useful 
thing to prioritize, and may be a ploy to make us flinch while they put 
something entirely different past us.


Also in the spirit of Jijitsu or Aikido, it makes a bit more sense to 
understand what one's opponent is *actually* intending/doing/capable of 
and responding to that more as a "dance" than a confrontation.   I'm 
interested in how we (western civ?) can "dance" with the East (far and 
near) rather than how we can dominate or beat them down.   The world is 
too small (IMO) to make it into a cage-fight rink (or ThunderDome) if we 
have the opportunity to turn it more into a dance hall or better yet an 
extended EcoSystem in which humans are (for better or worse) dominant 
elements.


gRumble,

 - Steve

On 11/12/21 10:09 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:


Well trolled!  It’s time for me to turn of the news for a while.  I am 
even closer to hysteria than usual.


I want to say it shouldn’t  MATTER who said it;  it should only matter 
whether it’s true or not.  It’s the “true,shmoo 
!” 
move that drives me crazy.  I concede that complexity thinking should 
turn us all into hopeless dyonesians, but I will not have it!


N

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com 

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 



*From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
*Sent:* Friday, November 12, 2021 9:46 AM
*To:* friam@redfish.com
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological 
studies of bird flocks


Nick,

Nothing you say below or said in the original post is false. All are 
true. Trump could not have written what you wrote, he lacks the 
literacy as well as the ability to avoid "hyperisms" in his speech.


However ... e

Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[thompnickson2]

Well trolled!  It’s time for me to turn of the news for a while.  I am even 
closer to hysteria than usual.  

 

I want to say it shouldn’t  MATTER who said it;  it should only matter whether 
it’s true or not.  It’s the “true, shmoo 

 !” move that drives me crazy.  I concede that complexity thinking should turn 
us all into hopeless dyonesians, but I will not have it!

 

N

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2021 9:46 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird 
flocks

 

Nick,

 

Nothing you say below or said in the original post is false. All are true. 
Trump could not have written what you wrote, he lacks the literacy as well as 
the ability to avoid "hyperisms" in his speech.

 

However ... each of your points about the Chinese in both posts have been 
stated by Trump; albeit in his distorted/garbled playground bully vernacular.

 

The Epoch Times is a Falun Gong mouthpiece with a huge anti-China bias. 
Nevertheless it has/does publish essays and news pieces that also state, just 
as eloquently as do you, the same points and warnings about what China is doing 
and why.

 

What I am teasing you (trolling with a huge smile on my face because I think 
the world of you) about — via the ad hominen — is the fact that "truth" 
(non-falsity) of the statements made are somehow made dependent on the identity 
of the messenger. When Trump or the Epoch Times makes the statements they are 
racist cant, but when Nick states them, they are wisdom to paid attention to.

 

davew

 

 

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 10:11 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
  wrote:

Dave,

 

So, ad hominem aside, which of the assertions  I made are false.   Is Hong Kong 
not being digested as we speak?  Is pressure not increasing on the Taiwanese?  
Are islands not being built and fortified in the international waters around 
China?  Are the Uighurs not being confined in work camps?   Are the Chinese not 
massively deploying surveillance technology?  Look, I don’t hold it against the 
Chinese.  Given our behavior in the last decade, I think a very good case can 
be made for the superiority of authoritarian rule in the avoidance of economic 
and social chaos.  If democracies are capable of producing Hitlers and Trumps 
and the current Turkish and Hungarian leaders, which exactly IS their special 
call on our loyalty.  Could that loyalty just be so much romantic twaddle.  The 
democratical citizens of Athens murdered an entire defenseless city of their 
fellow Greeks—put them to the sword, I believe is how Thucydides put it.   I 
don’t happen to agree with the argument, but I don’t have to think of the 
Chinese as some hideous yellow peril to believe that they sincerely believe it. 
 I just have to think that they are expanding, as we did after the cold war, 
into a vacuum left by our own sudden ambivalence concerning our own values.  I 
don’t believe that Trump could have written the above, but even if he could, a 
stopped clock has to be right two times a day (or only once, if it is a twenty 
four our clock.) 

 

I would love to believe that I am wrong about any of this.  Democracies are 
caving all over the world and I think it’s fair to say that a majority of 
americans have given up on the idea as well. 

 

The one thing I am desperately naïve about and that complexity denies is that 
it is valuable to think ahead, to plan, to share plans with fellow citizens, 
and to follow some fair rules for arriving at a consensus, being ever vigilant 
for the perils of mob psychology and group think, before taking action.  All of 
that is in peril, right now, and when the history is written it will have been 
us that let it happen. 

 

N

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2021 9:39 PM

To: friam@redfish.com  

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird 
flocks

 

Nick, get out your dagger repellent you Trumpist you!

 

I have heard, almost verbatim, your entire paragraph from the mouth of the 
Donald, and seen the exact same notions discussed, ad nauseam,  in Glen's 
favorite newspaper, The Epoch Times. [Don't shoot me glen, it is a joke.]

 

davew

 

 

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 11:57 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
  wrote:

Steve,

 

Well, I may be the victim of recent “neo- (aka a

[FRIAM] Merle is back home from presenting at COP26

[Merle Lefkoff]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FqXTCvDLeo

-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

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Re: [FRIAM] "chilling effect"

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

I agree it's a useful distinction. Neither are epiphenomena in the 
"unintentional" sense. In the Snowden case, it's difficult for me to imagine 
Snowden, as a whistleblower who felt he had to escape from one "oppressive" 
regime to take harbor in another oppressive regime, *not* having thought 
explicitly about any chilling effect such a blown whistle would have. He's too 
smarmy for me to credit him with naivete. And the NSA may have more stupid 
members than we think 
(http://harmful.cat-v.org/people/basic-laws-of-human-stupidity/); but most of 
us know that measuring a system often modifies the system being measured.

But your use of "investment" helps lay out, perhaps, that there are 
*categories* of side effect, in the "additional" or "secondary" sense. At least:

  • don't care
  • nice to have
  • collateral damage

I still argue as I did with SteveS, that such a concept, qualified with 
categories or not, is only relevant in a closed game or axiomatic system. In an 
open game, those categories explode and cross over too much for any of it to be 
useful. I.e. epiphenomenon is a useless concept in any real world context.


On 11/12/21 8:15 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> I can see that I was being too clumsy. In the SLAPP case and the
> SB8 case chilling is pretty straightforward, but in the case I linked[☃]
> (which jumps to a highlighted section "Chilling effects on Wikipedia
> users" on the Wikipedia page for *chilling effect*) I see an example
> where I don't believe that Wikipedia, Snowden, nor the NSA had any
> investment in chilling out Wikipedia users. Instead, it seems more like
> a novel side effect, a consequence of the subject matter, many citizens
> perceptions of their government, and a revelation of information.
> So I suppose like anything, things may have side effects, and I am not
> sure it contributes anything to mention it.
> 
> Comparing "Wikipedia Foundation versus NSA" with the *Clear Channel
> memorandum*[♪] is interesting to me (a sarcastic thanks again to the
> Telecomm act[⏚]). There, a decision was made to preemptively chill the
> radio of its "affects and percepts"[D]. I'm not entirely sure what the
> concerning response to hearing Lennon's "Imagine" was supposed to be and
> less so for "She's not there" by the Zombies.
> 
> [☃] 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect#:~:text=13%5D%5Bfailed%20verification%5D-,Chilling%20effects%20on%20Wikipedia%20users,-%5Bedit%5D
>  
> 
> [♪] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_Channel_memorandum 
> 
> [⏚] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_Act_of_1996 
> 
> [D] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_(philosophy)#In_Deleuze_and_Guattari 
> 


-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] "chilling effect"

[Jon Zingale]

"""
How is it epi? In both the SLAPP case and the SB8 case,
it's a directly targeted effect.
"""

I can see that I was being too clumsy. In the SLAPP case and the
SB8 case chilling is pretty straightforward, but in the case I linked[☃]
(which jumps to a highlighted section "Chilling effects on Wikipedia
users" on the Wikipedia page for *chilling effect*) I see an example
where I don't believe that Wikipedia, Snowden, nor the NSA had any
investment in chilling out Wikipedia users. Instead, it seems more like
a novel side effect, a consequence of the subject matter, many citizens
perceptions of their government, and a revelation of information.
So I suppose like anything, things may have side effects, and I am not
sure it contributes anything to mention it.

Comparing "Wikipedia Foundation versus NSA" with the *Clear Channel
memorandum*[♪] is interesting to me (a sarcastic thanks again to the
Telecomm act[⏚]). There, a decision was made to preemptively chill the
radio of its "affects and percepts"[D]. I'm not entirely sure what the
concerning response to hearing Lennon's "Imagine" was supposed to be and
less so for "She's not there" by the Zombies.

[☃]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect#:~:text=13%5D%5Bfailed%20verification%5D-,Chilling%20effects%20on%20Wikipedia%20users,-%5Bedit%5D
[♪] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_Channel_memorandum
[⏚] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_Act_of_1996
[D]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_(philosophy)#In_Deleuze_and_Guattari

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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Ha! You have no idea. One of my high school classmates, a hard right winger 
last I checked, actually writes for Epoch:

https://www.theepochtimes.com/author-alan-wakim

All good jokes carry a kernel of truth, I guess.

On 11/11/21 7:38 PM, Prof David West wrote:
> Nick, get out your dagger repellent you Trumpist you!
> 
> I have heard, almost verbatim, your entire paragraph from the mouth of the 
> Donald, and seen the exact same notions discussed, ad nauseam,  in Glen's 
> favorite newspaper, /The Epoch Times./ [Don't shoot me glen, it is a joke.]

-- 
"Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of bird flocks

[Prof David West]

Nick,

Nothing you say below or said in the original post is false. All are true. 
Trump could not have written what you wrote, he lacks the literacy as well as 
the ability to avoid "hyperisms" in his speech.

However ... each of your points about the Chinese in both posts have been 
stated by Trump; albeit in his distorted/garbled playground bully vernacular.

The Epoch Times is a Falun Gong mouthpiece with a huge anti-China bias. 
Nevertheless it has/does publish essays and news pieces that also state, just 
as eloquently as do you, the same points and warnings about what China is doing 
and why.

What I am teasing you (trolling with a huge smile on my face because I think 
the world of you) about — via the ad hominen — is the fact that "truth" 
(non-falsity) of the statements made are somehow made dependent on the identity 
of the messenger. When Trump or the Epoch Times makes the statements they are 
racist cant, but when Nick states them, they are wisdom to paid attention to.

davew


On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 10:11 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Dave,
>  
> So, ad hominem aside, which of the assertions  I made are false.   Is Hong 
> Kong not being digested as we speak?  Is pressure not increasing on the 
> Taiwanese?  Are islands not being built and fortified in the international 
> waters around China?  Are the Uighurs not being confined in work camps?   Are 
> the Chinese not massively deploying surveillance technology?  Look, I don’t 
> hold it against the Chinese.  Given our behavior in the last decade, I think 
> a very good case can be made for the superiority of authoritarian rule in the 
> avoidance of economic and social chaos.  If democracies are capable of 
> producing Hitlers and Trumps and the current Turkish and Hungarian leaders, 
> which exactly IS their special call on our loyalty.  Could that loyalty just 
> be so much romantic twaddle.  The democratical citizens of Athens murdered an 
> entire defenseless city of their fellow Greeks—put them to the sword, I 
> believe is how Thucydides put it.   I don’t happen to agree with the 
> argument, but I don’t have to think of the Chinese as some hideous yellow 
> peril to believe that they sincerely believe it.  I just have to think that 
> they are expanding, as we did after the cold war, into a vacuum left by our 
> own sudden ambivalence concerning our own values.  I don’t believe that Trump 
> could have written the above, but even if he could, a stopped clock has to be 
> right two times a day (or only once, if it is a twenty four our clock.) 
>  
> I would love to believe that I am wrong about any of this.  Democracies are 
> caving all over the world and I think it’s fair to say that a majority of 
> americans have given up on the idea as well. 
>  
> The one thing I am desperately naïve about and that complexity denies is that 
> it is valuable to think ahead, to plan, to share plans with fellow citizens, 
> and to follow some fair rules for arriving at a consensus, being ever 
> vigilant for the perils of mob psychology and group think, before taking 
> action.  All of that is in peril, right now, and when the history is written 
> it will have been us that let it happen. 
>  
> N
>  
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>  
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 11, 2021 9:39 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of 
> bird flocks
> 
>  
> Nick, get out your dagger repellent you Trumpist you!
>  
> I have heard, almost verbatim, your entire paragraph from the mouth of the 
> Donald, and seen the exact same notions discussed, ad nauseam,  in Glen's 
> favorite newspaper, *The Epoch Times.* [Don't shoot me glen, it is a joke.]
>  
> davew
>  
>  
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021, at 11:57 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Steve,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Well, I may be the victim of recent “neo- (aka archeo-) liberal” pod casts, 
>> but I really get the impression that the Chinese are going for it, boasting 
>> a Chinese Exceptionalism every bit as toxic as the one we have espoused.  
>> From their point of view, this moment in history is the analogue of our 
>> moment after WW two.  They are ready to move ahead and there is nobody “out 
>> there” with the organization or resources to oppose them.  Why would they 
>> not take the opportunity?  The age of sino-hegemony is upon us.  We either 
>> pull our socks up politically or settle down to be the new Yugoslavia. 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Nick Thompson
>> 
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>> 
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 11, 2021 11:58 AM
>> *To:* friam@redfish.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Application of robo-pigeon in ethological studies of 
>> bird flocks
>>  
>> 
>> Nick -
>> 
>> I asked this because the style of your statement felt like it had the fl