date:20220303

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

2022-03-03 Thread glen


OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" or 
"surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story also targets the 
problem:

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia

Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come Back Alive" 
charity  and the similar but anti-violence DAO set up 
by the Pussy Riot member, there needs to be a way to in-group *actual* Russians while 
out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.

https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews-12555968

In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they point out that there are many Ukrainian "creators" 
you can support directly. But we can also support in-group Russians directly, encouraging those who reject authoritarianism and 
act within their own tiny little sphere of influence. Without those rhizomic tendrils of influence into and *with* our in-group 
in Russia, ham-handed things like sanctions will simply turn them against us, against what they associate with 
"democracy", "liberalism", and "the West". We already see this in the rhetoric from our socialist 
lefties, blaming the status of Russian oligarchs on our introduction of neoliberalism after the collapse of the USSR. And we see 
it in the righties at the convoy protests, objectifying "liberals" and blaming them for positions they don't even 
really hold.

These blunt instruments like sanctions are better than, say, bombing Moscow, 
but not by much. They're still too blunt. We won't win the socio-cultural or 
climate war that way. We need tactics that unify the geographically/politically 
*perforated* in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist 
citizenhood and such.

The phrase "hearts and minds" helps, but isn't concrete enough.

On 3/2/22 16:04, Steve Smith wrote:

Glen -

I really appreciate your outlining this so well.

It is always easier to imagine that *other people* can magically do things that we know from our own experience that we cannot (or choose not to) do.   I also felt very impotent to do much of anything about Trump's tenure except commit to myself (and encourage other fence sitters) to put aside petty ideals and vote *effectively* against Trump in 2020.   I voted against Trump in 2016 but also Hillary by voting for Green Jill Stein (before I discovered what an anti-vaxxer she is, even as an MD).  I would not have done so if I thought NM could fall to Trump, but if I'd lived in another state where he was a shoo-in I might have also thrown my vote into the "protest" category.  Biden was easier for me than Hillary to accept, even though I'd have chosen any one of about half the big slate in the primaries.  Bernie near the top. I may have talked a few of my more curmudgeonly friends out of voting for a write-in simply because they didn't get Bernie (or Mayor Pete or Tulsi or ...) 
.   This was one election where the total "popular vote" was important even if it didn't "count" as such.   There were a couple of candidates I'd have had a hard time not passing over in "protest" but not if it was going to change the outcome.


I do think, however, that gumming up Russia's gears, even if it hits the 
populace hard is important.   Making the clear, unequivocal statement that 
Authoritarian Belligerence isn't welcome.   I was shamed by the US under Trump 
(and Bush for that matter) but did not begrudge my shamers... I did (do) feel 
responsible for what my country does in my name, even if/though I feel fairly 
disempowered in most specific ways.

I doubt that the Russian citizenry is suffering any more than the Ukranian 
citizenry, and insomuch as many of them are friends/family, there are surely 
things *they* can do to help Ukrainians that is hard for the likes of you or me 
to do.  That doesn't mean I shouldn't try, though I do moderate that by the 
myriad *other* things i should be doing both domestic and foreign with my 
first-world privilege.

If we can make it out the other side of this without a devastating (or even 
trivial but earthshaking) nuclear exchange, I hope it leads to many rethinking 
the size of the world's nuclear stockpile.   I just saw a headline that implied 
that Belarus was going to host some of Russia's nukes.  It was *the right 
thing* for Ukraine to give up the nukes on it's soil at the end of cold war, 
but imagine how things would look (better or worse) if Russia knew that Ukraine 
held a handful of nukes? Time to disarm ourselves...

-Steve


This video brings home, to me, the inherent conflict with "do what it takes to 
...":

I'm Russian I want the rest of the world to hear me out
https://youtu.be/FUE40mkEYeo

Even though I'm worried she's a plant, she makes the valid point that things like sanctions 
don't hurt the ultra wealthy. And in a country where the elections really are rigged

[FRIAM] academic freedom

2022-03-03 Thread glen

Here's why I think the Academic Freedom Alliance (and similar things like the
Heterodox Academy) are bullshit [⛧]:

In a defamation lawsuit, the hype around digital health clashes with scientific
criticism
https://www.statnews.com/2022/03/02/health-fertility-thermometer-valley-polis/

There's a *legitimate* case of the expression and defense of academic freedom. But what's occupying the
attention of the "Academic Freedom Alliance"? [sigh] The suspension of an "anti-Woke"
professor from a Christian propaganda outlet :

https://academicfreedom.org/letter-to-concordia-wisconsin-on-gregory-schulz/

along with professors facing blowback for "adult child sex" comments, stances on abortion,
"critical race theory", confederate statues, etc. They (the AFA) may have good intentions to some
extent. But by ignoring actual academics, cases of actual academic freedom, and focusing on peripherally
kinda-sorta academic divisive issues, they effectively incite the divisions rather than treating them.
They're directly responsible for turning the "academy" into the equivalent of a Rupert Murdoch
gossip rag. Chelsea Polis deserves way more defensive attention than anyone the AFA is claiming to defend.

[⛧] And I mean bullshit in the technical sense, not false, not true, but designed to
target divisive "culture war" type stuff, designed as a confidence trick.

--
glen
When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.

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Re: [FRIAM] war footing

2022-03-03 Thread Marcus Daniels

< We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need tactics that 
unify the geographically/politically *perforated* in-group as a network, not 
according to artificial nationalist citizenhood and such. >

There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and that's with the 
use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   The west is not yet prepared 
to do that, so it has opted for collective punishment.   Yeah, I also read 
those Meduza articles, and clearly there are courageous people in Russia trying 
to stop all this.Although I must admit when Trump was elected, I thought 
isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia and bring them to 
kneel!I remember thinking in the early '90s that the internet could address 
the problem you highlight, and it hasn't delivered on that at all.  

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" or 
"surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story also 
targets the problem:

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia

Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come Back 
Alive" charity  and the similar but 
anti-violence DAO set up by the Pussy Riot member, there needs to be a way to 
in-group *actual* Russians while out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.

https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews-12555968

In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they point out 
that there are many Ukrainian "creators" you can support directly. But we can 
also support in-group Russians directly, encouraging those who reject 
authoritarianism and act within their own tiny little sphere of influence. 
Without those rhizomic tendrils of influence into and *with* our in-group in 
Russia, ham-handed things like sanctions will simply turn them against us, 
against what they associate with "democracy", "liberalism", and "the West". We 
already see this in the rhetoric from our socialist lefties, blaming the status 
of Russian oligarchs on our introduction of neoliberalism after the collapse of 
the USSR. And we see it in the righties at the convoy protests, objectifying 
"liberals" and blaming them for positions they don't even really hold.

These blunt instruments like sanctions are better than, say, bombing Moscow, 
but not by much. They're still too blunt. We won't win the socio-cultural or 
climate war that way. We need tactics that unify the geographically/politically 
*perforated* in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist 
citizenhood and such.

The phrase "hearts and minds" helps, but isn't concrete enough.

On 3/2/22 16:04, Steve Smith wrote:
> Glen -
> 
> I really appreciate your outlining this so well.
> 
> It is always easier to imagine that *other people* can magically do 
> things that we know from our own experience that we cannot (or choose not to) 
> do.   I also felt very impotent to do much of anything about Trump's tenure 
> except commit to myself (and encourage other fence sitters) to put aside 
> petty ideals and vote *effectively* against Trump in 2020.   I voted against 
> Trump in 2016 but also Hillary by voting for Green Jill Stein (before I 
> discovered what an anti-vaxxer she is, even as an MD).  I would not have done 
> so if I thought NM could fall to Trump, but if I'd lived in another state 
> where he was a shoo-in I might have also thrown my vote into the "protest" 
> category.  Biden was easier for me than Hillary to accept, even though I'd 
> have chosen any one of about half the big slate in the primaries.  Bernie 
> near the top. I may have talked a few of my more curmudgeonly friends out of 
> voting for a write-in simply because they didn't get Bernie (or Mayor Pete or 
> Tulsi or ...) .   This was one election where the total "popular vote" was 
> important even if it didn't "count" as such.   There were a couple of 
> candidates I'd have had a hard time not passing over in "protest" but not if 
> it was going to change the outcome.
> 
> I do think, however, that gumming up Russia's gears, even if it hits the 
> populace hard is important.   Making the clear, unequivocal statement that 
> Authoritarian Belligerence isn't welcome.   I was shamed by the US under 
> Trump (and Bush for that matter) but did not begrudge my shamers... I did 
> (do) feel responsible for what my country does in my name, even if/though I 
> feel fairly disempowered in most specific ways.
> 
> I doubt that the Russian citizenry is suffering any more than the Ukranian 
> citizenry, and insomuch as many of them are friends/family, there are surely 
> things *they* can do to help Ukrainians that is hard for the likes of

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

2022-03-03 Thread glen


Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't directly engage Russian 
forces because of the risks associated with world war or nuclear war. But I'm too 
ignorant to play that game at that level. My sentiment is the US should just take out 
that convoy. "Bring it on," I guess.

But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated networked 
in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual conferences, eHealth, 
electronic mental health, meditation apps, Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even the 
righties have been networked by things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the problem 
I'm highlighting *has* been delivered on by the internet. But such networking 
has presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared foundation 
between networks.

The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and right in the 
US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs right, much like the 
ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. Ukrainian citizenship, national 
identity. Now that the internet has delivered us ways to perforate abstractions 
like citizenship and nation, we need refined or new ways to re-ground such 
networks in concrete things like food, shelter, health, climate, and 
infrastructure.

I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting righties at 
the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, I'll be able to ground 
that interaction in things like beer and potholes. But the antifa standing next 
to me won't be interested in talking to the bearded fat trucker about beer and 
potholes. That sign you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is that there's 
a fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer Vienna lager. And 
Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant compared to whether 
she had a good time visiting Paris.

Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration indicates.

On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:

< We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need tactics that 
unify the geographically/politically *perforated* in-group as a network, not 
according to artificial nationalist citizenhood and such. >

There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and that's with the 
use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   The west is not yet prepared 
to do that, so it has opted for collective punishment.   Yeah, I also read 
those Meduza articles, and clearly there are courageous people in Russia trying 
to stop all this.Although I must admit when Trump was elected, I thought 
isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia and bring them to 
kneel!I remember thinking in the early '90s that the internet could address 
the problem you highlight, and it hasn't delivered on that at all.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" or 
"surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story also targets the 
problem:

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia

Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come Back Alive" 
charity  and the similar but anti-violence DAO set up 
by the Pussy Riot member, there needs to be a way to in-group *actual* Russians while 
out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.

https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews-12555968

In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they point out that there are many Ukrainian "creators" 
you can support directly. But we can also support in-group Russians directly, encouraging those who reject authoritarianism and 
act within their own tiny little sphere of influence. Without those rhizomic tendrils of influence into and *with* our in-group 
in Russia, ham-handed things like sanctions will simply turn them against us, against what they associate with 
"democracy", "liberalism", and "the West". We already see this in the rhetoric from our socialist 
lefties, blaming the status of Russian oligarchs on our introduction of neoliberalism after the collapse of the USSR. And we see 
it in the righties at the convoy protests, objectifying "liberals" and blaming them for positions they don't even 
really hold.

These blunt instruments like sanctions are better than, say, bombing Moscow, 
but not by much. They're still too blunt. We won't win the socio-cultural or 
climate war that way. We need tactics that unify the geographically/politically 
*perforated* in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist 
citizenhood and such.

The phrase "hearts and minds" helps, but isn't concrete enough.

On 3/2/22 16:04, Steve Smith wrote:

Glen -

I really appreciate your outlining this so wel

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

2022-03-03 Thread Marcus Daniels

So you think the antifa will care about the actual beer, but just not talking 
about it?   I don't think I agree that everything can be boiled down to 
hedonism.  
There are other dimensions of personality (e.g. love of dogs) that might bypass 
other disagreements, but I don't think they are universal.  And they are only 
temporary.  The true contempt is there, I think.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 8:49 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't directly engage 
Russian forces because of the risks associated with world war or nuclear war. 
But I'm too ignorant to play that game at that level. My sentiment is the US 
should just take out that convoy. "Bring it on," I guess.

But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated networked 
in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual conferences, eHealth, 
electronic mental health, meditation apps, Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even the 
righties have been networked by things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the problem 
I'm highlighting *has* been delivered on by the internet. But such networking 
has presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared foundation 
between networks.

The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and right in the 
US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs right, much like the 
ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. Ukrainian citizenship, national 
identity. Now that the internet has delivered us ways to perforate abstractions 
like citizenship and nation, we need refined or new ways to re-ground such 
networks in concrete things like food, shelter, health, climate, and 
infrastructure.

I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting righties at 
the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, I'll be able to ground 
that interaction in things like beer and potholes. But the antifa standing next 
to me won't be interested in talking to the bearded fat trucker about beer and 
potholes. That sign you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is that there's 
a fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer Vienna lager. And 
Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant compared to whether 
she had a good time visiting Paris.

Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration indicates.

On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> < We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need 
> tactics that unify the geographically/politically *perforated* 
> in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist 
> citizenhood and such. >
> 
> There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and that's with 
> the use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   The west is not yet 
> prepared to do that, so it has opted for collective punishment.   Yeah, I 
> also read those Meduza articles, and clearly there are courageous people in 
> Russia trying to stop all this.Although I must admit when Trump was 
> elected, I thought isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia 
> and bring them to kneel!I remember thinking in the early '90s that the 
> internet could address the problem you highlight, and it hasn't delivered on 
> that at all.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing
> 
> OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" 
> or "surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story also 
> targets the problem:
> 
> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia
> 
> Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come Back 
> Alive" charity  and the similar but 
> anti-violence DAO set up by the Pussy Riot member, there needs to be a way to 
> in-group *actual* Russians while out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-
> our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews
> -12555968
> 
> In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they point out 
> that there are many Ukrainian "creators" you can support directly. But we can 
> also support in-group Russians directly, encouraging those who reject 
> authoritarianism and act within their own tiny little sphere of influence. 
> Without those rhizomic tendrils of influence into and *with* our in-group in 
> Russia, ham-handed things like sanctions will simply turn them against us, 
> against what they associate with "democracy", "liberalism", and "the West". 
> We already see this in the rhetoric from our socialist lefties, blaming the 
> status of Russian oligarchs on our introduction of neoliberalism after the 
> collapse of the USSR. And we see

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

2022-03-03 Thread glen


[sigh] It's not hedonism. Beer is food. Potholes are infrastructure. If you 
think food and infrastructure are hedonism, then you've got too much money. As 
I said, food, health, shelter, climate, infrastructure, etc. these things are 
better foundations for conversation than whatever nonsense is written on your 
sign.

On 3/3/22 08:55, Marcus Daniels wrote:

So you think the antifa will care about the actual beer, but just not talking 
about it?   I don't think I agree that everything can be boiled down to 
hedonism.
There are other dimensions of personality (e.g. love of dogs) that might bypass 
other disagreements, but I don't think they are universal.  And they are only 
temporary.  The true contempt is there, I think.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 8:49 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't directly engage Russian 
forces because of the risks associated with world war or nuclear war. But I'm too 
ignorant to play that game at that level. My sentiment is the US should just take out 
that convoy. "Bring it on," I guess.

But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated networked 
in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual conferences, eHealth, 
electronic mental health, meditation apps, Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even the 
righties have been networked by things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the problem 
I'm highlighting *has* been delivered on by the internet. But such networking 
has presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared foundation 
between networks.

The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and right in the 
US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs right, much like the 
ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. Ukrainian citizenship, national 
identity. Now that the internet has delivered us ways to perforate abstractions 
like citizenship and nation, we need refined or new ways to re-ground such 
networks in concrete things like food, shelter, health, climate, and 
infrastructure.

I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting righties at 
the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, I'll be able to ground 
that interaction in things like beer and potholes. But the antifa standing next 
to me won't be interested in talking to the bearded fat trucker about beer and 
potholes. That sign you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is that there's 
a fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer Vienna lager. And 
Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant compared to whether 
she had a good time visiting Paris.

Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration indicates.

On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:

< We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need
tactics that unify the geographically/politically *perforated*
in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist
citizenhood and such. >

There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and that's with the 
use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   The west is not yet prepared 
to do that, so it has opted for collective punishment.   Yeah, I also read 
those Meduza articles, and clearly there are courageous people in Russia trying 
to stop all this.Although I must admit when Trump was elected, I thought 
isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia and bring them to 
kneel!I remember thinking in the early '90s that the internet could address 
the problem you highlight, and it hasn't delivered on that at all.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" or 
"surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story also targets the 
problem:

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia

Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come Back Alive" 
charity  and the similar but anti-violence DAO set up 
by the Pussy Riot member, there needs to be a way to in-group *actual* Russians while 
out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.

https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-
our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews
-12555968

In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they point out that there are many Ukrainian "creators" 
you can support directly. But we can also support in-group Russians directly, encouraging those who reject authoritarianism and 
act within their own tiny little sphere of influence. Without those rhizomic tendrils of influence into and *with* our in-group 
in Russia, ham-handed things like sanctions will simply turn them against us,

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

2022-03-03 Thread Marcus Daniels

Climate and health issues are written on these signs, and they remain very 
controversial.   And the asphalt industry is getting a massive injection of 
money,
( 
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/19/us/politics/infrastructure-plan-asphalt.html 
) in part because we can't talk about changing (e.g. doubting) our behavior 
instead of doubling-down on the same infrastructure approach.Just try to 
talk to a hedonist about eating cultured meat.
 
-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 9:38 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[sigh] It's not hedonism. Beer is food. Potholes are infrastructure. If you 
think food and infrastructure are hedonism, then you've got too much money. As 
I said, food, health, shelter, climate, infrastructure, etc. these things are 
better foundations for conversation than whatever nonsense is written on your 
sign.

On 3/3/22 08:55, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> So you think the antifa will care about the actual beer, but just not talking 
> about it?   I don't think I agree that everything can be boiled down to 
> hedonism.
> There are other dimensions of personality (e.g. love of dogs) that might 
> bypass other disagreements, but I don't think they are universal.  And they 
> are only temporary.  The true contempt is there, I think.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 8:49 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing
> 
> Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't directly 
> engage Russian forces because of the risks associated with world war or 
> nuclear war. But I'm too ignorant to play that game at that level. My 
> sentiment is the US should just take out that convoy. "Bring it on," I guess.
> 
> But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated networked 
> in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual conferences, eHealth, 
> electronic mental health, meditation apps, Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even 
> the righties have been networked by things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the 
> problem I'm highlighting *has* been delivered on by the internet. But such 
> networking has presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared 
> foundation between networks.
> 
> The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and right in the 
> US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs right, much like the 
> ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. Ukrainian citizenship, national 
> identity. Now that the internet has delivered us ways to perforate 
> abstractions like citizenship and nation, we need refined or new ways to 
> re-ground such networks in concrete things like food, shelter, health, 
> climate, and infrastructure.
> 
> I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting righties at 
> the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, I'll be able to ground 
> that interaction in things like beer and potholes. But the antifa standing 
> next to me won't be interested in talking to the bearded fat trucker about 
> beer and potholes. That sign you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is 
> that there's a fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer 
> Vienna lager. And Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant 
> compared to whether she had a good time visiting Paris.
> 
> Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration indicates.
> 
> On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> < We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need 
>> tactics that unify the geographically/politically *perforated* 
>> in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist 
>> citizenhood and such. >
>>
>> There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and that's with 
>> the use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   The west is not yet 
>> prepared to do that, so it has opted for collective punishment.   Yeah, I 
>> also read those Meduza articles, and clearly there are courageous people in 
>> Russia trying to stop all this.Although I must admit when Trump was 
>> elected, I thought isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia 
>> and bring them to kneel!I remember thinking in the early '90s that the 
>> internet could address the problem you highlight, and it hasn't delivered on 
>> that at all.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing
>>
>> OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" 
>> or "surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story 
>> also targets the problem:
>>
>> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russi
>> a
>>
>> Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come 
>> Back Alive" charity

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

2022-03-03 Thread Prof David West

Send the Ukraine a ton or two of gold bullion along with a Rolodex of mercenary 
forces with the ability to acquire black market armaments, perhaps Chinese or 
North Korean in origin. Then sit back and watch. Some care would need to be 
taken that the mercenary forces are not ones that we used in the mid-East or in 
Afghanistan. Bet you could find groups that Russia used in Venezuela or Iraq 
and, by definition, mercenaries are only loyal to the gold.

davew


On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, at 8:48 AM, glen wrote:
> Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't 
> directly engage Russian forces because of the risks associated with 
> world war or nuclear war. But I'm too ignorant to play that game at 
> that level. My sentiment is the US should just take out that convoy. 
> "Bring it on," I guess.
>
> But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated 
> networked in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual 
> conferences, eHealth, electronic mental health, meditation apps, 
> Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even the righties have been networked by 
> things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the problem I'm highlighting *has* 
> been delivered on by the internet. But such networking has presented us 
> with *another* problem, the lack of a shared foundation between 
> networks.
>
> The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and right 
> in the US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs right, 
> much like the ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. Ukrainian 
> citizenship, national identity. Now that the internet has delivered us 
> ways to perforate abstractions like citizenship and nation, we need 
> refined or new ways to re-ground such networks in concrete things like 
> food, shelter, health, climate, and infrastructure.
>
> I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting 
> righties at the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, I'll 
> be able to ground that interaction in things like beer and potholes. 
> But the antifa standing next to me won't be interested in talking to 
> the bearded fat trucker about beer and potholes. That sign you're 
> carrying is irrelevant. What matters is that there's a fantastic 
> brewery just down the street that brews a killer Vienna lager. And 
> Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant compared to 
> whether she had a good time visiting Paris.
>
> Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration indicates.
>
> On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> < We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need tactics 
>> that unify the geographically/politically *perforated* in-group as a 
>> network, not according to artificial nationalist citizenhood and such. >
>> 
>> There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and that's with 
>> the use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   The west is not yet 
>> prepared to do that, so it has opted for collective punishment.   Yeah, I 
>> also read those Meduza articles, and clearly there are courageous people in 
>> Russia trying to stop all this.Although I must admit when Trump was 
>> elected, I thought isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia 
>> and bring them to kneel!I remember thinking in the early '90s that the 
>> internet could address the problem you highlight, and it hasn't delivered on 
>> that at all.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing
>> 
>> OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" 
>> or "surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story 
>> also targets the problem:
>> 
>> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia
>> 
>> Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come 
>> Back Alive" charity  and the similar but 
>> anti-violence DAO set up by the Pussy Riot member, there needs to be a way 
>> to in-group *actual* Russians while out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.
>> 
>> https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews-12555968
>> 
>> In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they point out 
>> that there are many Ukrainian "creators" you can support directly. But we 
>> can also support in-group Russians directly, encouraging those who reject 
>> authoritarianism and act within their own tiny little sphere of influence. 
>> Without those rhizomic tendrils of influence into and *with* our in-group in 
>> Russia, ham-handed things like sanctions will simply turn them against us, 
>> against what they associate with "democracy", "liberalism", and "the West". 
>> We already see this in the rhetoric from our socialist lefties, blaming the 
>> status of Russian oliga

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