date:20220926

Re: [FRIAM] Automata with FFT

2022-09-26 Thread Prof David West

Alexander was a Janus: a mathematician at his father's insistence when he 
wanted to be an artist. An architect by compromise.  Face two was a Taoist 
mystic infused with hard core Catholic fundamentalism.

His Ph.D. thesis—which became his first book, *Notes on the Synthesis of 
Form*—was an attempt to define a mathematical science of 
[architectural/industrial] design. But in the same book, he stated that optimal 
design arose from a "non-selfconscious" process, embedded in myth and ritual 
and culture.

*A Pattern Language*, was part of a trilogy that included *The Timeless Way of 
Building* and the *Oregon Experiment*. *APL* was written by committee and 
edited by Alexander (although he took all the credit) to fulfill a government 
grant. His mystical side was front and center in *TTW*; and the Oregon 
Experiment was a case study.

Alexander transcended Patterns and his last major work—*The Nature of Order, 
vol 1-4*—centered 15 generative properties that have little to nothing to do 
with patterns and is far more mystical and Catholic-God focused than his 
earlier work.

Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck brought *APL* to the attention of the software 
community as a workshop at OOPSLA (ACM conference on Object Oriented 
Programming Systems and Applications). The 'Gang of Four' authors of *Pattern 
Languages of Programming* participated in that workshop. A year after their 
book was published a mock trial of the GoF for "heresy" was staged and they 
were found guilty.

Perhaps the most significant error made by the software community was seeking 
patterns in "solution space" rather than "problem space;" the latter being 
where most of Alexander's work was focused. The software patterns community 
looked at written programs to find multiple instances of similar bodies of code 
and attempt to discern a generalized problem that they solved (albeit with 
contextual idiosyncrasies).

There are hundreds of thousands of software patterns published, but maybe three 
or four that actually capable of being applied in multiple contexts—of actually 
being considered "true" patterns.

The connection to geometry, both in Alexander and in software patterns, was 
never more than tenuous. A majority of the patterns in APL (e.g., "Dancing in 
the Streets," "Sleeping in Public") had nothing to do with geometry or any 
other mathematical formalism. Even patterns like "Light from Two Sides" are 
geometric in the only the simplest sense.

The math in *Notes* was algebra, not geometry. Only in his last major work NO, 
can you find properties that are overtly geometric, e.g., "centers" and 
"alternating repetition."

more upon request

davew

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, at 5:13 PM, glen wrote:
> I'd appreciate you (and SteveS) throwing some words at it. In 
> particular, since software patterns are *supposed* to be linked to the 
> geometric patterns of architecture, *where* or *how* has it gone wrong 
> in extrapolation? Did Alexander go wrong in his extrapolation? Or did 
> others [mis]interpret?
>
> (I've purposefully left the Subject the same because it definitely 
> relates to Chan's morphology based taxonomy and my argument with my 
> meso-biologist friend about "species diversity" versus "phylogenetic 
> diversity".)
>
> On 9/26/22 15:35, Prof David West wrote:
>> I am a patterns and Alexander expert. glen's uncertainty / mild antipathy is 
>> spot on. Software patterns are an oxymoron.
>> 
>> Strong words, but happy to back them up with dozens of papers 
>> written/presented and hours of discussion.
>> 
>> davew
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, at 6:29 AM, glen wrote:
>>> Very cool! Thanks.
>>>
>>> In particular, our property abuts "the ravine", which is a semi-wild
>>> place. The permaculture categories might help me orient my own
>>> intuition (that everything in the ravine should be left alone) with my
>>> neighbor's (clearing the whole area and reintroducing natives). He owns
>>> the majority of it. So, c'est la vie ... or perhaps "telle est la
>>> mort". (Don't blame me. I don't know French.) One thing this zone 0-5
>>> model might permit is modularity. That blog post implies such with the
>>> inverted garden interface. But it seems like there could be pockets of
>>> zone0es in wild areas and pockets of zone5s in urban areas,
>>> particularly in sprawling cities like LA or Houston. Growing up in
>>> Houston, where every square inch of semi-abandoned land seemed rapidly
>>> reclaimed by the swamp, is probably the source of my skepticism with my
>>> friends' diversity doctrine.
>>>
>>> There's a lot to digest in the biophilia links. I have to confess, I
>>> haven't given pattern languages much attention. It always seems
>>> motivated by geometry, which fails for me. Of course, I'm familiar
>>> enough with software patterns. But that's always failed for me as well.
>>> They seem too ephemeral, unstable ... i.e. not real, convenient
>>> fiction, and *perfect* opportunity for gurus to blind others with their
>>> gobbledygook m

I'd appreciate you (and SteveS) throwing some words at it. In particular, since
software patterns are *supposed* to be linked to the geometric patterns of
architecture, *where* or *how* has it gone wrong in extrapolation? Did
Alexander go wrong in his extrapolation? Or did others [mis]interpret?

(I've purposefully left the Subject the same because it definitely relates to Chan's morphology
based taxonomy and my argument with my meso-biologist friend about "species diversity"
versus "phylogenetic diversity".)

On 9/26/22 15:35, Prof David West wrote:

I am a patterns and Alexander expert. glen's uncertainty / mild antipathy is
spot on. Software patterns are an oxymoron.

Strong words, but happy to back them up with dozens of papers written/presented
and hours of discussion.

davew

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, at 6:29 AM, glen wrote:

Very cool! Thanks.

In particular, our property abuts "the ravine", which is a semi-wild
place. The permaculture categories might help me orient my own
intuition (that everything in the ravine should be left alone) with my
neighbor's (clearing the whole area and reintroducing natives). He owns
the majority of it. So, c'est la vie ... or perhaps "telle est la
mort". (Don't blame me. I don't know French.) One thing this zone 0-5
model might permit is modularity. That blog post implies such with the
inverted garden interface. But it seems like there could be pockets of
zone0es in wild areas and pockets of zone5s in urban areas,
particularly in sprawling cities like LA or Houston. Growing up in
Houston, where every square inch of semi-abandoned land seemed rapidly
reclaimed by the swamp, is probably the source of my skepticism with my
friends' diversity doctrine.

There's a lot to digest in the biophilia links. I have to confess, I
haven't given pattern languages much attention. It always seems
motivated by geometry, which fails for me. Of course, I'm familiar
enough with software patterns. But that's always failed for me as well.
They seem too ephemeral, unstable ... i.e. not real, convenient
fiction, and *perfect* opportunity for gurus to blind others with their
gobbledygook mouth sounds. I guess it reminds me of category theory,
too abstract for my ape brain. But maybe some of his earlier work on
Clifford algebras might motivate me? I could start here, I guess:
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-1472-2_41

Thanks again.

On 9/24/22 10:29, Steve Smith wrote:

On 9/24/22 9:49 AM, glen wrote:

Such efforts seem so inherently metaphorical it's difficult for me to approach
a concrete conversation. For example, I have a couple of biologist friends, one
meso (bugs) and one macro (ungulates), who thought I was being contrarian when
I challenged their assertion that biodiversity in urban areas was *obviously*
lower than that of natural areas like forests. Of course, I admit my ignorance
up front. Maybe they are. But it's just not obvious to me.

This may seem a little tangential but the realm of Permaculture Design has a
suite of truisms on these topics, though they are articulated in their unique
language which can be a little hard to translate sometimes. I think the
permaculture community represent a fertile laboratory for doing *some*
experiments as implied by Glen's questions.

A good example which gestures toward the Chan work at least morphologically is
maybe worth a scan if not a full read here:

https://aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/zones-in-permaculture-design/

Permaculture's 5 zone quantization doesn't preclude a recognition of there being continuous
gradients in many dimensions from a locus of "technological closed-loop" (zone 0) and
"biological closed loop" (zone 5).

There is a *lot* of talk in the literature about the interfaces around zone 0, 1, 2
techno-structures creating localized ecozones that harbor diversity (desired and
undesired == vermin) which I think provide some good anecdotal evidence about
biodiversity in transition zones and acute technological interfaces (e.g. roofs, walls,
corners, posts, fences, etc). Permaculture is a domain of recognizing and exploiting
"happy accidents".

It is also worth noting the diversity spike that happens in estuarial
contexts...

A more formal study of Urban/Architectural design with an eye to *health* (human-centric view) is the
domain of Biophilic Design
. Nikos Salingaros
is a hard-core Mathematician at UT-San Antonio who addresses abstractions of Complexity
and Pattern Languages
as well as Architecture and Urbanism. He also
has some interesting opinions about
post modernism as well as Dawkins Atheism.

Since then, they've presented (meso and macro) arguments that justify their position. It
does seem obvious that

Re: [FRIAM] Automata with FFT

2022-09-26 Thread Steve Smith


Glen said:

   /But maybe some of his earlier work on Clifford algebras might
   motivate me? I could start here, I guess:
   https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-1472-2_41

   /

this definitely feeds my more mystical conceptions of the relationship 
between mathematics and "reality", but it is damned hard to get any 
traction beyond "making gobledegook mouth sounds" about it.   Maybe I 
need to read it on 'shrooms?




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Re: [FRIAM] Automata with FFT

2022-09-26 Thread Steve Smith


Glen said:

   /But maybe some of his earlier work on Clifford algebras might
   motivate me? I could start here, I guess:
   https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-1472-2_41

   /

this definitely feeds my more mystical conceptions of the relationship 
between mathematics and "reality", but it is damned hard to get any 
traction beyond "making gobledegook mouth sounds" about it.




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Re: [FRIAM] Automata with FFT

2022-09-26 Thread Prof David West

I am a patterns and Alexander expert. glen's uncertainty / mild antipathy is 
spot on. Software patterns are an oxymoron.

Strong words, but happy to back them up with dozens of papers written/presented 
and hours of discussion.

davew


On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, at 6:29 AM, glen wrote:
> Very cool! Thanks.
>
> In particular, our property abuts "the ravine", which is a semi-wild 
> place. The permaculture categories might help me orient my own 
> intuition (that everything in the ravine should be left alone) with my 
> neighbor's (clearing the whole area and reintroducing natives). He owns 
> the majority of it. So, c'est la vie ... or perhaps "telle est la 
> mort". (Don't blame me. I don't know French.) One thing this zone 0-5 
> model might permit is modularity. That blog post implies such with the 
> inverted garden interface. But it seems like there could be pockets of 
> zone0es in wild areas and pockets of zone5s in urban areas, 
> particularly in sprawling cities like LA or Houston. Growing up in 
> Houston, where every square inch of semi-abandoned land seemed rapidly 
> reclaimed by the swamp, is probably the source of my skepticism with my 
> friends' diversity doctrine.
>
> There's a lot to digest in the biophilia links. I have to confess, I 
> haven't given pattern languages much attention. It always seems 
> motivated by geometry, which fails for me. Of course, I'm familiar 
> enough with software patterns. But that's always failed for me as well. 
> They seem too ephemeral, unstable ... i.e. not real, convenient 
> fiction, and *perfect* opportunity for gurus to blind others with their 
> gobbledygook mouth sounds. I guess it reminds me of category theory, 
> too abstract for my ape brain. But maybe some of his earlier work on 
> Clifford algebras might motivate me? I could start here, I guess: 
> https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-1472-2_41
>
> Thanks again.
>
> On 9/24/22 10:29, Steve Smith wrote:
>> 
>> On 9/24/22 9:49 AM, glen wrote:
>>> Such efforts seem so inherently metaphorical it's difficult for me to 
>>> approach a concrete conversation. For example, I have a couple of biologist 
>>> friends, one meso (bugs) and one macro (ungulates), who thought I was being 
>>> contrarian when I challenged their assertion that biodiversity in urban 
>>> areas was *obviously* lower than that of natural areas like forests. Of 
>>> course, I admit my ignorance up front. Maybe they are. But it's just not 
>>> obvious to me.
>> 
>> This may seem a little tangential but the realm of Permaculture Design has a 
>> suite of truisms on these topics, though they are articulated in their 
>> unique language which can be a little hard to translate sometimes.  I think 
>> the permaculture community represent a fertile laboratory for doing *some* 
>> experiments as implied by Glen's questions.
>> 
>> A good example which gestures toward the Chan work at least morphologically 
>> is maybe worth a scan if not a full read here:
>> 
>> 
>> https://aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/zones-in-permaculture-design/
>> 
>> Permaculture's 5 zone quantization doesn't preclude a recognition of there 
>> being continuous gradients in many dimensions from a locus of "technological 
>> closed-loop" (zone 0) and "biological closed loop" (zone 5).
>> 
>> There is a *lot* of talk in the literature about the interfaces around zone 
>> 0, 1, 2 techno-structures creating localized ecozones that harbor diversity 
>> (desired and undesired == vermin) which I think provide some good anecdotal 
>> evidence about biodiversity in transition zones and acute technological 
>> interfaces (e.g. roofs, walls, corners, posts, fences, etc).  Permaculture 
>> is a domain of recognizing and exploiting "happy accidents".
>> 
>> It is also worth noting the diversity spike that happens in estuarial 
>> contexts...
>> 
>> A more formal study of Urban/Architectural design with an eye to *health* 
>> (human-centric view) is the domain of Biophilic Design 
>> .
>>   Nikos Salingaros is a hard-core Mathematician at UT-San Antonio who 
>> addresses abstractions of Complexity 
>>  and Pattern 
>> Languages  as well as 
>> Architecture and Urbanism.  He also has some interesting opinions 
>>  about post 
>> modernism as well as Dawkins Atheism.
>> 
>> 
>>>
>>> Since then, they've presented (meso and macro) arguments that justify their 
>>> position. It does seem obvious that urban areas trend to more adaptable 
>>> animals like coyotes and raccoons and less so to, say, deer. The bugs are 
>>> more interesting. Meso guy found some articles that show "species" 
>>> diversity in urban areas is roughly the same as natural areas. But 
>>> phylogenetic diversity is clearly lower in urban areas. That see

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

2022-09-26 Thread Frank Wimberly

That's what I always thought.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, 12:44 PM glen  wrote:

> Clearly you're a Scientismist! >8^D
>
> On 9/26/22 11:14, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> > I'm sorry I opened that.
> >
> > ---
> > Frank C. Wimberly
> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> > Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >
> > 505 670-9918
> > Santa Fe, NM
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 4:27 PM Jon Zingale  jonzing...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Steve -
> >
> > Reponsive to your references to Sabine Hossenfelder, et al...
> >
> >
> >
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR_8gpJCT4I&t=69s&ab_channel=BoilerRoom <
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR_8gpJCT4I&t=69s&ab_channel=BoilerRoom>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

2022-09-26 Thread glen


Clearly you're a Scientismist! >8^D

On 9/26/22 11:14, Frank Wimberly wrote:

I'm sorry I opened that.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 4:27 PM Jon Zingale mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Steve -

Reponsive to your references to Sabine Hossenfelder, et al...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR_8gpJCT4I&t=69s&ab_channel=BoilerRoom 



--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

2022-09-26 Thread Frank Wimberly

I'm sorry I opened that.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022, 4:27 PM Jon Zingale  wrote:

> Steve -
>
> Reponsive to your references to Sabine Hossenfelder, et al...
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR_8gpJCT4I&t=69s&ab_channel=BoilerRoom
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> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] Five Lectures in the Time of COVID-19

2022-09-26 Thread glen

Ha! 2 Escher mentions within the span of 2 days (Myers: https://youtu.be/RPuWHN0BTio?t=1811 and Bellomo 1.14 - slide
17). Myers' assertion that co-sheaves might actually help with the problem identified by Bollomo seems interesting,
though I'm probably not competent to pursue it. It also seems to wind along with the semiology of the "Nick's
monism" thread, where EricC seems to be trying to re-assert the orthogonalities within Peirce's typology of signs.
And it dovetails nicely with Russell's upcoming "barriers to entailment" book, wherein she tries to unify
"level" problems across Hume's guillotine, indexicality, temporal, and impredicativity problems ... Maybe I
can call it "the ontological status of epistemological extrapolations and methods for their error correction".

Similar to the "signal in the noise" thread, my psychiatrist friend's assertion that people are
either "splitters" or "lumpers" obtains. Splitting seems trivial to me. Lumping is more
interesting. But lumping is susceptible to gurus. Which reminds me, awhile back, I asked y'all about the
Consilience Project. Well, we finally get an ... [ahem] ... analysis of the Consilience Project's main guy
(Schmachtenberger):

https://decoding-the-gurus.captivate.fm/episode/daniel-schmachtenberger-jamie-wheal-jordan-hall-making-sense-about-making-sense-of-sensemaking

Thanks for the link, Pietro!

On 9/22/22 12:25, Pietro Terna wrote:

Dear all,

let me report a brief scientific advertisement.

At
https://www.carloalberto.org/cca-events/collegioaperto/six-lectures-in-the-time-of-covid-19/
you can find "Five Lectures in the Time of COVID-19: From a Mathematics of
Living Systems To Modeling Virus Pandemics” (open with registration).

1. Nicola Bellomo - A Quest Towards a Mathematical Theory of Living Systems slides
& video.
2. Diletta Burini - Mathematical Tools of the Kinetic Theory of Active Particles
slides & video.
3. Nicola Bellomo, Diletta Burini and Nisrine Outada - Towards a Mathematical
Theory of Virus Pandemics - Models with Mutations, Variants and Vaccination
Programs slides & video.
4. Damián Knopoff - Heterogeneity and Networks slides & video.
5. Pietro Terna - Agent Methods to Modeling Virus Pandemics - A quick reference to
complexity slides & video.
Closure, Description of the material support to the Lectures, Acknowledgments,
Pietro Terna.

Best wishes, Pietro

ps I’m in this list as a former member of the Swarm Development Group.

"It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a deep truth."
Neils Bohr.

Campagna di tweet MA VOLETE PROPRIO VOTARE PER
QUESTI?https://app.simplenote.com/publish/Y5nwgd

Ahttps://terna.to.it/breviArticoli.html riporto dei miei brevi articoli su
temi di attualità.

Home page:https://terna.to.it Twitter:https://twitter.com/@pietroterna

--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] Automata with FFT

2022-09-26 Thread Jon Zingale

One thing that got me interested in this work is the possibility of
organizations of agents in different frequency spaces coming together to
make agents over the total frequency domain. Also, I would be curious about
the robustness of agents under frequency filtering. There appear to be
possibilities here that weren't necessarily available in other "smooth"
approaches.
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Re: [FRIAM] Automata with FFT

2022-09-26 Thread glen

Very cool! Thanks.

In particular, our property abuts "the ravine", which is a semi-wild place. The
permaculture categories might help me orient my own intuition (that everything in the ravine should
be left alone) with my neighbor's (clearing the whole area and reintroducing natives). He owns the
majority of it. So, c'est la vie ... or perhaps "telle est la mort". (Don't blame me. I
don't know French.) One thing this zone 0-5 model might permit is modularity. That blog post
implies such with the inverted garden interface. But it seems like there could be pockets of
zone0es in wild areas and pockets of zone5s in urban areas, particularly in sprawling cities like
LA or Houston. Growing up in Houston, where every square inch of semi-abandoned land seemed rapidly
reclaimed by the swamp, is probably the source of my skepticism with my friends' diversity doctrine.

There's a lot to digest in the biophilia links. I have to confess, I haven't
given pattern languages much attention. It always seems motivated by geometry,
which fails for me. Of course, I'm familiar enough with software patterns. But
that's always failed for me as well. They seem too ephemeral, unstable ... i.e.
not real, convenient fiction, and *perfect* opportunity for gurus to blind
others with their gobbledygook mouth sounds. I guess it reminds me of category
theory, too abstract for my ape brain. But maybe some of his earlier work on
Clifford algebras might motivate me? I could start here, I guess:
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-1472-2_41

Thanks again.

On 9/24/22 10:29, Steve Smith wrote:

On 9/24/22 9:49 AM, glen wrote:

A good example which gestures toward the Chan work at least morphologically is
maybe worth a scan if not a full read here:

https://aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/zones-in-permaculture-design/

It is also worth noting the diversity spike that happens in estuarial
contexts...

Since then, they've presented (meso and macro) arguments that justify their position. It
does seem obvious that urban areas trend to more adaptable animals like coyotes and
raccoons and less so to, say, deer. The bugs are more interesting. Meso guy found some
articles that show "species" diversity in urban areas is roughly the same as
natural areas. But phylogenetic diversity is clearly lower in urban areas. That seems
counter intuitive to me. It's a cool result.

My main point when I originally expressed skepticism, though, was about
microbial diversity. Is it possible that bug-layer and microbe-layer (including
what lives in/on large animals like rats and humans) diversity makes up for
lower diversity in large-layers?

I *feel* that projects like Chan's could help with this question since it seems
prohibitively expensive to sample and test enough microbial populations of
urban and wild areas, especially if we include intr

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