[FRIAM] The WEBB seeing back to the first millennia

2022-12-28 Thread Owen Densmore 
In aj NYTimes article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/science/astronomy-webb-telescope.html
..there is the usual discussion on "seeing back to the first several
millennia".

But, and be kind, why haven't these photons already sped past us? I suppose
it is because the exanssion is uniformly everywhere, we just kept ahead of
them? That seems unlikely given the expansion is slower than light.

-- Owen
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Re: [FRIAM] The WEBB seeing back to the first millennia

2022-12-28 Thread Gillian Densmore 
Same Q! My guess is what they meen is that stuff is reely far away so it'd
be like looking at events that had happened but we can catchup to the show
because of distance somehow due to lag essentially. Someone that knows more
about this then I do hopefully has a much more concrete answer. Fwiw it's
the kind of things that keeps NDGT ( Niel DeGrasse Tyson) up lol

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:21 AM Owen Densmore  wrote:

> In aj NYTimes article:
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/science/astronomy-webb-telescope.html
> ..there is the usual discussion on "seeing back to the first several
> millennia".
>
> But, and be kind, why haven't these photons already sped past us? I
> suppose it is because the exanssion is uniformly everywhere, we just kept
> ahead of them? That seems unlikely given the expansion is slower than light.
>
> -- Owen
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Re: [FRIAM] The WEBB seeing back to the first millennia

2022-12-28 Thread Frank Wimberly 
My guess:  stars, including the Sun, are constantly producing and emitting
new photons.  This happens as a result of fusion and other processes.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 9:21 AM Owen Densmore  wrote:

> In aj NYTimes article:
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/science/astronomy-webb-telescope.html
> ..there is the usual discussion on "seeing back to the first several
> millennia".
>
> But, and be kind, why haven't these photons already sped past us? I
> suppose it is because the exanssion is uniformly everywhere, we just kept
> ahead of them? That seems unlikely given the expansion is slower than light.
>
> -- Owen
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] The WEBB seeing back to the first millennia

2022-12-28 Thread Gillian Densmore 
(using a bad analogy) and those photons record what's going on like a on
going WEBB stream? so we now have essentially the ability to see old
streams (as it were) from photons any anything else that can get a snippet
of that. and basically light  does take time to show up.  it's not exactly
instant on the galatic scale (see also: Relativity). and so by the time
WEBB or any other other telescopes s mirrors cameras and blah blah blah
send that to our eyes those photons are now old reeely old. And the grand
expansion is  fast enough to go faster then light? or is it because the
universe is stupendously big. so it takes a while to get to where we can
snag some photons?

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:49 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> My guess:  stars, including the Sun, are constantly producing and emitting
> new photons.  This happens as a result of fusion and other processes.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 9:21 AM Owen Densmore  wrote:
>
>> In aj NYTimes article:
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/science/astronomy-webb-telescope.html
>> ..there is the usual discussion on "seeing back to the first several
>> millennia".
>>
>> But, and be kind, why haven't these photons already sped past us? I
>> suppose it is because the exanssion is uniformly everywhere, we just kept
>> ahead of them? That seems unlikely given the expansion is slower than light.
>>
>> -- Owen
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>>
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Re: [FRIAM] The WEBB seeing back to the first millennia

2022-12-28 Thread Roger Frye 
They are shifted so far to the red that when they reach us, they are stop
lights.

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 9:42 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Same Q! My guess is what they meen is that stuff is reely far away so it'd
> be like looking at events that had happened but we can catchup to the show
> because of distance somehow due to lag essentially. Someone that knows more
> about this then I do hopefully has a much more concrete answer. Fwiw it's
> the kind of things that keeps NDGT ( Niel DeGrasse Tyson) up lol
>
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:21 AM Owen Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> In aj NYTimes article:
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/science/astronomy-webb-telescope.html
>> ..there is the usual discussion on "seeing back to the first several
>> millennia".
>>
>> But, and be kind, why haven't these photons already sped past us? I
>> suppose it is because the exanssion is uniformly everywhere, we just kept
>> ahead of them? That seems unlikely given the expansion is slower than light.
>>
>> -- Owen
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] The WEBB seeing back to the first millennia

2022-12-28 Thread Gillian Densmore 
AH! egad, that's so large and far away I can almost get my head around it.
lol no wonder we want infra-red. that's practically going backwards by then

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:57 AM Roger Frye  wrote:

> They are shifted so far to the red that when they reach us, they are stop
> lights.
>
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 9:42 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> Same Q! My guess is what they meen is that stuff is reely far away so
>> it'd be like looking at events that had happened but we can catchup to the
>> show because of distance somehow due to lag essentially. Someone that knows
>> more about this then I do hopefully has a much more concrete answer. Fwiw
>> it's the kind of things that keeps NDGT ( Niel DeGrasse Tyson) up lol
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:21 AM Owen Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In aj NYTimes article:
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/science/astronomy-webb-telescope.html
>>> ..there is the usual discussion on "seeing back to the first several
>>> millennia".
>>>
>>> But, and be kind, why haven't these photons already sped past us? I
>>> suppose it is because the exanssion is uniformly everywhere, we just kept
>>> ahead of them? That seems unlikely given the expansion is slower than light.
>>>
>>> -- Owen
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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>>
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[FRIAM] This is your brain. This is your brain on code | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology

2022-12-28 Thread Tom Johnson 
https://news.mit.edu/2022/your-brain-your-brain-code-1221

===
Tom Johnson
Inst. for Analytic Journalism
Santa Fe, New Mexico
505-577-6482
===
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Re: [FRIAM] The WEBB seeing back to the first millennia

2022-12-28 Thread Tom Johnson 
Ah, but are we sure the expansion IS uniform?

===
Tom Johnson
Inst. for Analytic Journalism
Santa Fe, New Mexico
505-577-6482
===

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 10:01 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> AH! egad, that's so large and far away I can almost get my head around it.
> lol no wonder we want infra-red. that's practically going backwards by then
>
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:57 AM Roger Frye  wrote:
>
>> They are shifted so far to the red that when they reach us, they are stop
>> lights.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 9:42 AM Gillian Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Same Q! My guess is what they meen is that stuff is reely far away so
>>> it'd be like looking at events that had happened but we can catchup to the
>>> show because of distance somehow due to lag essentially. Someone that knows
>>> more about this then I do hopefully has a much more concrete answer. Fwiw
>>> it's the kind of things that keeps NDGT ( Niel DeGrasse Tyson) up lol
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:21 AM Owen Densmore 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 In aj NYTimes article:
 https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/science/astronomy-webb-telescope.html
 ..there is the usual discussion on "seeing back to the first several
 millennia".

 But, and be kind, why haven't these photons already sped past us? I
 suppose it is because the exanssion is uniformly everywhere, we just kept
 ahead of them? That seems unlikely given the expansion is slower than 
 light.

 -- Owen
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>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] The WEBB seeing back to the first millennia

2022-12-28 Thread Gillian Densmore 
Hmmm. Are we? I am skeptical it is. Ok so if it's not...how would we even
check? Gravity lensing and guesstimate?

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 10:18 AM Tom Johnson  wrote:

> Ah, but are we sure the expansion IS uniform?
>
> ===
> Tom Johnson
> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
> Santa Fe, New Mexico
> 505-577-6482
> ===
>
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 10:01 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> AH! egad, that's so large and far away I can almost get my head around
>> it. lol no wonder we want infra-red. that's practically going backwards by
>> then
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:57 AM Roger Frye  wrote:
>>
>>> They are shifted so far to the red that when they reach us, they are
>>> stop lights.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 9:42 AM Gillian Densmore 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Same Q! My guess is what they meen is that stuff is reely far away so
 it'd be like looking at events that had happened but we can catchup to the
 show because of distance somehow due to lag essentially. Someone that knows
 more about this then I do hopefully has a much more concrete answer. Fwiw
 it's the kind of things that keeps NDGT ( Niel DeGrasse Tyson) up lol

 On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:21 AM Owen Densmore 
 wrote:

> In aj NYTimes article:
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/science/astronomy-webb-telescope.html
> ..there is the usual discussion on "seeing back to the first several
> millennia".
>
> But, and be kind, why haven't these photons already sped past us? I
> suppose it is because the exanssion is uniformly everywhere, we just kept
> ahead of them? That seems unlikely given the expansion is slower than 
> light.
>
> -- Owen
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] The WEBB seeing back to the first millennia

2022-12-28 Thread David Eric Smith 
Citing back to Owen:

Gil is right.  The universe could be infinite, and it is at the least big 
enough that we have no positive evidence so far that it isn’t infinite.

If it were infinitely large, but only finitely old, then at any given place, 
the only photons that could yet have sped past us would be those from a 
distance away that is less than the age divided by c.  But there would always 
be someplace enough further out that you are only now seeing it.  Cue lyrics to 
“The way we were”, of course

There is a thing I never learned to understand about cosmological models, which 
is how they reconcile finite age with infinite size.  Presumably infinity is 
infinity, and if your solution is always infinitely extended (flat or negative 
spatial curvature), then even if you go back to a Big Bang of infinite density 
in the finite past, that infinite density is still infinitely extended.  If 
there were positive spatial curvature and the universe were closed, one could 
just work in the finite-but-large.

(btw, of course, inflation doesn’t solve this; it just changes rates of various 
expansions in various eras.)

I guess cosmologists don’t worry about this, because they know there are enough 
phase transitions going on in the vacuum going back toward the beginning, that 
even if you appear to be negatively curved and open now, the current story may 
not extend all the way back.

Another thing that is fun to think about but that I don’t feel comfortable as 
having really internalized, is that old parts of the universe are like old 
cowboys: they never seem to be traveling away from you at faster than c; they 
just fade away in redshift to black.  So things can be totally unreachable at 
some finite time, yet never seem to have exceeded a finite speed limit to do it.

Eric

> On Dec 28, 2022, at 10:56 AM, Gillian Densmore  wrote:
> 
> (using a bad analogy) and those photons record what's going on like a on 
> going WEBB stream? so we now have essentially the ability to see old  streams 
> (as it were) from photons any anything else that can get a snippet of that. 
> and basically light  does take time to show up.  it's not exactly instant on 
> the galatic scale (see also: Relativity). and so by the time WEBB or any 
> other other telescopes s mirrors cameras and blah blah blah send that to our 
> eyes those photons are now old reeely old. And the grand expansion is  fast 
> enough to go faster then light? or is it because the universe is stupendously 
> big. so it takes a while to get to where we can snag some photons?
> 
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:49 AM Frank Wimberly  > wrote:
> My guess:  stars, including the Sun, are constantly producing and emitting 
> new photons.  This happens as a result of fusion and other processes.
> 
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> 
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 9:21 AM Owen Densmore  > wrote:
> In aj NYTimes article:
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/science/astronomy-webb-telescope.html 
> 
> ..there is the usual discussion on "seeing back to the first several 
> millennia".
> 
> But, and be kind, why haven't these photons already sped past us? I suppose 
> it is because the exanssion is uniformly everywhere, we just kept ahead of 
> them? That seems unlikely given the expansion is slower than light.
> 
> -- Owen
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