Re: [FRIAM] unrest in SoAm & Global ideological/sociopolitical/economic alignment...

[Ed Angel]

The first time I went to Chile was right after Pinochet. I was invited by the 
Chilean CS Professors to speak at their annual meeting which was to be in Punta 
Arenas. Hard to resist a free trip to Patagonia. But the people at the 
conference had a miixed reaction to having a US person there. It surprised me 
at first. Having traveled a lot during Vietnam, most people assumed US young 
people were anti war. But as a senior person in Chile, many people were not 
willing to make a similar assumption about Pinochet.

The opposite was true in Venezuela. I  was returning there for a conference and 
as it turned out I was on the first plane after all flights were grounded after 
9/11. Then I was the only US person who “dared” to attend the conference and 
was treated like some sort of hero by the Venezuelans.

There’s a short essay my editor had me write on my home page describing our 
adventures living in Venezuela and Ecuador.

Ed

Ed


Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel




> On Jan 13, 2023, at 2:48 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:
> 
> Ed -
> 
> Thanks for weighing in from your current SA location.   While I specifically 
> called out the distribution of places that our members *live*, I failed to 
> think (much) about how widely traveled (currently and over a career) many of 
> our members are.   I did not know you had so much experience with South 
> America.
> 
> When my sister and young family moved to Santiago Chile (just as Pinochet was 
> finally deposed) I became aware of the *deep history* of Santiago in 
> particular the early Spanish colonization (founded well before Santa Fe, for 
> example)...  and the strong role in European colonization around the world, 
> with Santiago (founded mid 1500s) as a powerful precursor to what we in the 
> US think of as San Francisco (founded late 1700s) being.   
> 
> Unfortunately, their grasp of *contemporary* politics was colored by the fact 
> that her husband worked for a major Copper Mining company and his peers in 
> Chile were all pretty much apologists for Pinochet since they had "grown up" 
> under his version of neoliberalism influenced by the "Chicago Boys" and 
> (covertly?) backed by the US (e.g. operation Condor).  Before all of this, 
> most of what I knew about the politics of South America came from an 
> outdated/lame public-high-school world history class taught by a football 
> coach, and the reactive populist left-wing movement who was (trying to) 
> calling out the CIA, etc. which I mostly dismissed as 
> kneejerk-liberal-hysteria.   History strongly suggests otherwise (to the 
> hysteria).   
> 
> I do agree that references to "Golden Ages" such as the paper I linked are 
> part of a larger *post-colonial* golden-age period throughout the part of the 
> world that (at that time) was recently freed from *overt political 
> euro-american dominance* but was on the rise of  multinational corporations 
> (such as the one my brother-in-law worked for).
> 
> I appreciated your categorization of the southern Big-three, the Andean and 
> the Central American.   The main things they would seem to have in common was 
> the initial Spanish Colonization and the more modern manipulation by the USA, 
> it's allies and enemies (USSR) for political and corporate gain.
> 
> The main thing I'm interested in *myself* is the question of "what is next" 
> for the world-at-large, but in particular the huge population tail 
> represented by the "developing world"...   What challenges (and more to the 
> point, opportunities) do these huge regions of the world represent (beyond 
> the semi-infinite source of natural resources they have been to the US, 
> Europe, and China)?
> 
> - Steve
> 
> On 1/13/23 4:01 PM, Ed Angel wrote:
>> Gary, you may remember that I lived in Quito not far from where I think you 
>> are while on sabbatical; half in Ecuador and half in Venezuela. I’ve also 
>> spent time in most South American and half of Central American countries. 
>> This email chain reached me in Argentina.
>> 
>> It strikes me as silly to refer to a "Latin American" Golden Age or any 
>> other term.
>> 
>> The southern big three (Argentina, Brazil, Chile) are completely different 
>> historically and culturally from the Andean countries (Ecuador, Peru, 
>> Columbia, Venezuela) and both are very differemt from most of Central 
>> America (Guatemala, Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua).
>> 
>> What I suspect the reference is about is the period before and after WW 2 
>> when the southern three were doing quite well. The Europeans had eliminated 
>> almost all the native population and all had large numbers of European 
>> immigrants about the same as the U.S. Because they were not partic

Re: [FRIAM] unrest in SoAm & Global ideological/sociopolitical/economic alignment...

[Frank Wimberly]

Unless I missed it Mexico wasn't mentioned.  I've been there multiple times
and I cultivated friendships with university students and young employees
in the early 90s.  Although I initially contacted these people via internet
Debby and I eventually met a number of them and their families during our
trips there.  Two of them came to Pittsburgh to work or study at Carnegie
Mellon.  These interactions led to our adopting a Mexican child.

An observation:  most of those people have 5 or 6 siblings but only 2 or 3
children.  With a couple of exceptions they are substantially more educated
than their parents.  Perhaps a new Golden Age is looming, at least for
Mexico.  The narcotraficantes aren't helping.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 2:49 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Ed -
>
> Thanks for weighing in from your current SA location.   While I
> specifically called out the distribution of places that our members *live*,
> I failed to think (much) about how widely traveled (currently and over a
> career) many of our members are.   I did not know you had so much
> experience with South America.
>
> When my sister and young family moved to Santiago Chile (just as Pinochet
> was finally deposed) I became aware of the *deep history* of Santiago in
> particular the early Spanish colonization (founded well before Santa Fe,
> for example)...  and the strong role in European colonization around the
> world, with Santiago (founded mid 1500s) as a powerful precursor to what we
> in the US think of as San Francisco (founded late 1700s) being.
>
> Unfortunately, their grasp of *contemporary* politics was colored by the
> fact that her husband worked for a major Copper Mining company and his
> peers in Chile were all pretty much apologists for Pinochet since they had
> "grown up" under his version of neoliberalism influenced by the "Chicago
> Boys" and (covertly?) backed by the US (e.g. operation Condor).  Before all
> of this, most of what I knew about the politics of South America came from
> an outdated/lame public-high-school world history class taught by a
> football coach, and the reactive populist left-wing movement who was
> (trying to) calling out the CIA, etc. which I mostly dismissed as
> kneejerk-liberal-hysteria.   History strongly suggests otherwise (to the
> hysteria).
>
> I do agree that references to "Golden Ages" such as the paper I linked are
> part of a larger *post-colonial* golden-age period throughout the part of
> the world that (at that time) was recently freed from *overt political
> euro-american dominance* but was on the rise of  multinational corporations
> (such as the one my brother-in-law worked for).
>
> I appreciated your categorization of the southern Big-three, the Andean
> and the Central American.   The main things they would seem to have in
> common was the initial Spanish Colonization and the more modern
> manipulation by the USA, it's allies and enemies (USSR) for political and
> corporate gain.
>
> The main thing I'm interested in *myself* is the question of "what is
> next" for the world-at-large, but in particular the huge population tail
> represented by the "developing world"...   What challenges (and more to the
> point, opportunities) do these huge regions of the world represent (beyond
> the semi-infinite source of natural resources they have been to the US,
> Europe, and China)?
>
> - Steve
> On 1/13/23 4:01 PM, Ed Angel wrote:
>
> Gary, you may remember that I lived in Quito not far from where I think
> you are while on sabbatical; half in Ecuador and half in Venezuela. I’ve
> also spent time in most South American and half of Central American
> countries. This email chain reached me in Argentina.
>
> It strikes me as silly to refer to a "Latin American" Golden Age or any
> other term.
>
> The southern big three (Argentina, Brazil, Chile) are completely different
> historically and culturally from the Andean countries (Ecuador, Peru,
> Columbia, Venezuela) and both are very differemt from most of Central
> America (Guatemala, Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua).
>
> What I suspect the reference is about is the period before and after WW 2
> when the southern three were doing quite well. The Europeans had eliminated
> almost all the native population and all had large numbers of European
> immigrants about the same as the U.S. Because they were not participants in
> WW2 they not only escaped the destruction in Europe but were able to profit
> from exports such the beef from Argentina and various natural resources.
>
> Ed
> 
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS
> Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:09 AM, Gary Schiltz 
> wrote:
>
> Steve, thanks 

Re: [FRIAM] unrest in SoAm & Global ideological/sociopolitical/economic alignment...

[Steve Smith]

Ed -

Thanks for weighing in from your current SA location.   While I 
specifically called out the distribution of places that our members 
*live*, I failed to think (much) about how widely traveled (currently 
and over a career) many of our members are.   I did not know you had so 
much experience with South America.


When my sister and young family moved to Santiago Chile (just as 
Pinochet was finally deposed) I became aware of the *deep history* of 
Santiago in particular the early Spanish colonization (founded well 
before Santa Fe, for example)...  and the strong role in European 
colonization around the world, with Santiago (founded mid 1500s) as a 
powerful precursor to what we in the US think of as San Francisco 
(founded late 1700s) being.


Unfortunately, their grasp of *contemporary* politics was colored by the 
fact that her husband worked for a major Copper Mining company and his 
peers in Chile were all pretty much apologists for Pinochet since they 
had "grown up" under his version of neoliberalism influenced by the 
"Chicago Boys" and (covertly?) backed by the US (e.g. operation 
Condor).  Before all of this, most of what I knew about the politics of 
South America came from an outdated/lame public-high-school world 
history class taught by a football coach, and the reactive populist 
left-wing movement who was (trying to) calling out the CIA, etc. which I 
mostly dismissed as kneejerk-liberal-hysteria.   History strongly 
suggests otherwise (to the hysteria).


I do agree that references to "Golden Ages" such as the paper I linked 
are part of a larger *post-colonial* golden-age period throughout the 
part of the world that (at that time) was recently freed from *overt 
political euro-american dominance* but was on the rise of  multinational 
corporations (such as the one my brother-in-law worked for).


I appreciated your categorization of the southern Big-three, the Andean 
and the Central American.   The main things they would seem to have in 
common was the initial Spanish Colonization and the more modern 
manipulation by the USA, it's allies and enemies (USSR) for political 
and corporate gain.


The main thing I'm interested in *myself* is the question of "what is 
next" for the world-at-large, but in particular the huge population tail 
represented by the "developing world"...   What challenges (and more to 
the point, opportunities) do these huge regions of the world represent 
(beyond the semi-infinite source of natural resources they have been to 
the US, Europe, and China)?


- Steve

On 1/13/23 4:01 PM, Ed Angel wrote:
Gary, you may remember that I lived in Quito not far from where I 
think you are while on sabbatical; half in Ecuador and half in 
Venezuela. I’ve also spent time in most South American and half of 
Central American countries. This email chain reached me in Argentina.


It strikes me as silly to refer to a "Latin American" Golden Age or 
any other term.


The southern big three (Argentina, Brazil, Chile) are completely 
different historically and culturally from the Andean countries 
(Ecuador, Peru, Columbia, Venezuela) and both are very differemt from 
most of Central America (Guatemala, Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua).


What I suspect the reference is about is the period before and after 
WW 2 when the southern three were doing quite well. The Europeans had 
eliminated almost all the native population and all had large numbers 
of European immigrants about the same as the U.S. Because they were 
not participants in WW2 they not only escaped the destruction in 
Europe but were able to profit from exports such the beef from 
Argentina and various natural resources.


Ed


Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory 
(ARTS Lab)

Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home)an...@cs.unm.edu
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel




On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:09 AM, Gary Schiltz 
 wrote:


Steve, thanks for the perspective. It's interesting that the authors
of the paper dub the period of 1950-1975 as the "Golden Age" and then
go on to point out how badly Latin America has failed to exploit it. I
haven't read the paper yet (only your quote from it), but it seems
they are defining a golden age globally, not for Latin America. I
guess that would be the post-WWII era.

I'll try to break out of these darned bubbles :-)

On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 12:33 PM Steve Smith  wrote:


Gary -

Thanks for the on-the-ground response from the "middle of the 
world".  I realize(d) you (like all of us) live in a bubble and I 
appreciate your acknowledging the two impinging bubbles you 
recognize yourself to be circumscribed by:  1) retired folk who 
avoid deep political thought; 2) locals without the education or 
experience to see much beyond the local community.


In some ways this feels like a template for many of our own 
bubbles...   sort of a 1) persona

Re: [FRIAM] unrest in SoAm & Global ideological/sociopolitical/economic alignment...

[Ed Angel]

Gary, you may remember that I lived in Quito not far from where I think you are 
while on sabbatical; half in Ecuador and half in Venezuela. I’ve also spent 
time in most South American and half of Central American countries. This email 
chain reached me in Argentina.

It strikes me as silly to refer to a "Latin American" Golden Age or any other 
term.

The southern big three (Argentina, Brazil, Chile) are completely different 
historically and culturally from the Andean countries (Ecuador, Peru, Columbia, 
Venezuela) and both are very differemt from most of Central America (Guatemala, 
Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua).

What I suspect the reference is about is the period before and after WW 2 when 
the southern three were doing quite well. The Europeans had eliminated almost 
all the native population and all had large numbers of European immigrants 
about the same as the U.S. Because they were not participants in WW2 they not 
only escaped the destruction in Europe but were able to profit from exports 
such the beef from Argentina and various natural resources.

Ed 


Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel




> On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:09 AM, Gary Schiltz  wrote:
> 
> Steve, thanks for the perspective. It's interesting that the authors
> of the paper dub the period of 1950-1975 as the "Golden Age" and then
> go on to point out how badly Latin America has failed to exploit it. I
> haven't read the paper yet (only your quote from it), but it seems
> they are defining a golden age globally, not for Latin America. I
> guess that would be the post-WWII era.
> 
> I'll try to break out of these darned bubbles :-)
> 
> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 12:33 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>> 
>> Gary -
>> 
>> Thanks for the on-the-ground response from the "middle of the world".  I 
>> realize(d) you (like all of us) live in a bubble and I appreciate your 
>> acknowledging the two impinging bubbles you recognize yourself to be 
>> circumscribed by:  1) retired folk who avoid deep political thought; 2) 
>> locals without the education or experience to see much beyond the local 
>> community.
>> 
>> In some ways this feels like a template for many of our own bubbles...   
>> sort of a 1) personal/professional/socioeconomic bubble; 2) geolocal bubble 
>> .   There are probably more and they may or may not overlap significantly.   
>> I use FriAM to try to force some of my own bubbles to impinge on one 
>> another, or perhaps to explore the interstices between the otherwise natural 
>> impingements...
>> 
>> I'm not a regular (only dropped in once or twice) vFriam participant, and I 
>> don't know about Merle, I think she may make a better effort than I and 
>> could probably be drawn into making an appearance for a topic *like* this if 
>> you were interested.   I'll ping her offline as well to see if she might be 
>> interested/available to vFriAM up on this (or some vaguely related) topic 
>> next week?
>> 
>> - Steve
>> 
>> Regarding "the Golden Age of Latin America", I found this (working) paper 
>> which moderately reflects what I think of as "the Golden Age".  I think they 
>> acknowledge (and maybe even explain) what you have 
>> experienced/observed/believe about "keeping Latin America dirt poor":
>> 
>> On the Latin American Growth Paradox: A Hindsight into the Golden Age
>> Giorgia Barboni∗and Tania Treibich† November 12, 2010
>> https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/89360/1/64049434X.pdf
>> 
>> 
>> In 1950, Latin American countries’ capabilities were promising: however, 
>> some other countries starting at the same level, or even below, made a 
>> better use of their initial endowments. At the time, countries like 
>> Argentina and Venezuela had a higher GDP per capita than other European 
>> countries belonging to the developed world today (Italy, Spain...) and many 
>> East Asian countries that have managed to catch up with the Western World in 
>> the last decades (see Figure 1 below). Indeed, the data on GDP per capita 
>> over the last 60 years reveals that since 1950, Latin American countries 
>> have diverged from the Western World. With a GDP growth rate between 4 and 5 
>> percent, they have fallen behind Europe which economy has reached a 20,000 
>> dollars per capita level today. The Latin American countries grew slowly 
>> until 1980 and, from then, their GDP per capita growth has been stationary. 
>> The only exception would be Chile which after a period of slow growth 
>> started an expansion period in 1980s, converging to the highest levels. 
>> Asian countries in comparison followed a convergence path, starting way 
>> lower and reaching the European levels of GDP per capita after fifty years 
>> of catching up. Cast

Re: [FRIAM] unrest in SoAm & Global ideological/sociopolitical/economic alignment...

[Gary Schiltz]

Steve, thanks for the perspective. It's interesting that the authors
of the paper dub the period of 1950-1975 as the "Golden Age" and then
go on to point out how badly Latin America has failed to exploit it. I
haven't read the paper yet (only your quote from it), but it seems
they are defining a golden age globally, not for Latin America. I
guess that would be the post-WWII era.

I'll try to break out of these darned bubbles :-)

On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 12:33 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
> Gary -
>
> Thanks for the on-the-ground response from the "middle of the world".  I 
> realize(d) you (like all of us) live in a bubble and I appreciate your 
> acknowledging the two impinging bubbles you recognize yourself to be 
> circumscribed by:  1) retired folk who avoid deep political thought; 2) 
> locals without the education or experience to see much beyond the local 
> community.
>
> In some ways this feels like a template for many of our own bubbles...   sort 
> of a 1) personal/professional/socioeconomic bubble; 2) geolocal bubble .   
> There are probably more and they may or may not overlap significantly.   I 
> use FriAM to try to force some of my own bubbles to impinge on one another, 
> or perhaps to explore the interstices between the otherwise natural 
> impingements...
>
> I'm not a regular (only dropped in once or twice) vFriam participant, and I 
> don't know about Merle, I think she may make a better effort than I and could 
> probably be drawn into making an appearance for a topic *like* this if you 
> were interested.   I'll ping her offline as well to see if she might be 
> interested/available to vFriAM up on this (or some vaguely related) topic 
> next week?
>
> - Steve
>
> Regarding "the Golden Age of Latin America", I found this (working) paper 
> which moderately reflects what I think of as "the Golden Age".  I think they 
> acknowledge (and maybe even explain) what you have 
> experienced/observed/believe about "keeping Latin America dirt poor":
>
> On the Latin American Growth Paradox: A Hindsight into the Golden Age
> Giorgia Barboni∗and Tania Treibich† November 12, 2010
> https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/89360/1/64049434X.pdf
>
>
> In 1950, Latin American countries’ capabilities were promising: however, some 
> other countries starting at the same level, or even below, made a better use 
> of their initial endowments. At the time, countries like Argentina and 
> Venezuela had a higher GDP per capita than other European countries belonging 
> to the developed world today (Italy, Spain...) and many East Asian countries 
> that have managed to catch up with the Western World in the last decades (see 
> Figure 1 below). Indeed, the data on GDP per capita over the last 60 years 
> reveals that since 1950, Latin American countries have diverged from the 
> Western World. With a GDP growth rate between 4 and 5 percent, they have 
> fallen behind Europe which economy has reached a 20,000 dollars per capita 
> level today. The Latin American countries grew slowly until 1980 and, from 
> then, their GDP per capita growth has been stationary. The only exception 
> would be Chile which after a period of slow growth started an expansion 
> period in 1980s, converging to the highest levels. Asian countries in 
> comparison followed a convergence path, starting way lower and reaching the 
> European levels of GDP per capita after fifty years of catching up. Castaldi 
> et al. (2008(16)) point out that this divergence can also be measured by the 
> widening productivity gap between Latin America and the international 
> frontier in the last decades. Other indicators of education and science may 
> also support the hypothesis that back then, Latin American countries had a 
> big potential for convergence. Argentina, for example, was thought to be so 
> promising that it could join the innovators’ club (Castaldi et al., 
> 2008(16)). Then, what happened during the Golden Age (1950-1975) that 
> prevented South American countries to exploit this potential for growth?
>
> Which is naturally just one perspective, but provides the basic idea of what 
> said "Golden Age" was/is/might-be.
>
>
> On 1/13/23 9:33 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
>
> Despite living here in the middle of the world, I'm afraid I don't
> give these ideas enogh serious thought these days. I interact mostly
> with people who are retired and avoid deep political thought, and with
> locals who don't have the education or experience to see much beyond
> the local community. I REALLY MUST make myself make it a priority to
> start attending the VFriam meetings on Thursday. It might be valuable.
> I wonder, does Merle ever tune in? She seems the most socially
> concerned (maybe even hopeful?) person on the list.
>
> By the way, I wasn't aware that there ever was a "Golden Age of Latin
> America". Care to elaborate? My view (shaped perhaps too much by
> reading "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" in the early 2000s) is
> that Latin America has alw

Re: [FRIAM] unrest in SoAm & Global ideological/sociopolitical/economic alignment...

[Steve Smith]

List -

BTW, I offered the paper on the "Latin American Growth Paradox" because 
it gave a fair thumbnail sketch of what I was referring to as "the 
Golden Age of Latin America" and upon reading it in more depth (beyond 
the abstract/introduction/conclusion) I find it more detailed 
mathematically (statistically) than I choose to dive into, so I can't 
fully support or question it's rigor.  Some here probably can do that 
with a fairly simple scan of the methods and results.   It was not 
unexpected, but the "things we can measure", and most appropriately in 
an "economics" paper tend toward widely measured economic variables 
(e.g. GDP) but does give a nod to "polity" and "religion".


I don't know how close these two variables (as explored here, or in our 
imaginations) qualify for the ongoing discussions with EricC on 
categorical variables under the subject "Idendifying 'types' within 
data", but it appears this paper punted on that by sticking to things 
which are directly/obviously quantifiable (percent population Roman 
Catholic) or developed specifically (polity score) to support 
quantitative analysis: http://www.systemicpeace.org/polityproject.html


The Polity Project linked above introduced me to a term I was unfamiliar 
with which I found fascinating, at least on the surface:


   Anocracy: mixed, or incoherent, authority regimes

and from Wikipedia

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anocracy#Human_rights

   

I was *expecting* Russia to show as a "closed anocracy", and more of 
Latin America as "open anocracies" but that probably just demonstrates 
how unfamiliar I am with the term...  maybe "defective Democracy" fits 
better? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defective_democracy#Types_of_defective_democracies


On 1/13/23 10:32 AM, Steve Smith wrote:


Gary -

Thanks for the on-the-ground response from the "middle of the world".  
I realize(d) you (like all of us) live in a bubble and I appreciate 
your acknowledging the two impinging bubbles you recognize yourself to 
be circumscribed by:  1) retired folk who avoid deep political 
thought; 2) locals without the education or experience to see much 
beyond the local community.


In some ways this feels like a template for many of our own 
bubbles...   sort of a 1) personal/professional/socioeconomic bubble; 
2) geolocal bubble .   There are probably more and they may or may not 
overlap significantly.   I use FriAM to try to force some of my own 
bubbles to impinge on one another, or perhaps to explore the 
interstices between the otherwise natural impingements...


I'm not a regular (only dropped in once or twice) vFriam participant, 
and I don't know about Merle, I think she may make a better effort 
than I and could probably be drawn into making an appearance for a 
topic *like* this if you were interested. I'll ping her offline as 
well to see if she might be interested/available to vFriAM up on this 
(or some vaguely related) topic next week?


- Steve

Regarding "the Golden Age of Latin America", I found this (working) 
paper which moderately reflects what I think of as "the Golden Age".  
I think they acknowledge (and maybe even explain) what you have 
experienced/observed/believe about "keeping Latin America dirt poor":


On the Latin American Growth Paradox: A Hindsight into the Golden Age
Giorgia Barboni∗and Tania Treibich† November 12, 2010
https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/89360/1/64049434X.pdf


/In 1950, Latin American countries’ capabilities were promising:
however, some other countries starting at the same level, or even
below, made a better use of their initial endowments. At the time,
countries like Argentina and Venezuela had a higher GDP per capita
than other European countries belonging to the developed world
today (Italy, Spain...) and many East Asian countries that have
managed to catch up with the Western World in the last decades
(see Figure 1 below). Indeed, the data on GDP per capita over the
last 60 years reveals that since 1950, Latin American countries
have diverged from the Western World. With a GDP growth rate
between 4 and 5 percent, they have fallen behind Europe which
economy has reached a 20,000 dollars per capita level today. The
Latin American countries grew slowly until 1980 and, from then,
their GDP per capita growth has been stationary. The only
exception would be Chile which after a period of slow growth
started an expansion period in 1980s, converging to the highest
levels. Asian countries in comparison followed a convergence path,
starting way lower and reaching the European levels of GDP per
capita after fifty years of catching up. Castaldi et al.
(2008(16)) point out that this divergence can also be measured by
the widening productivity gap between Latin America and the
international frontier in the last decades. Other indicators of
education and science may also support the hypothesis that back
   

Re: [FRIAM] unrest in SoAm & Global ideological/sociopolitical/economic alignment...

[Steve Smith]

Gary -

Thanks for the on-the-ground response from the "middle of the world".  I 
realize(d) you (like all of us) live in a bubble and I appreciate your 
acknowledging the two impinging bubbles you recognize yourself to be 
circumscribed by:  1) retired folk who avoid deep political thought; 2) 
locals without the education or experience to see much beyond the local 
community.


In some ways this feels like a template for many of our own bubbles...   
sort of a 1) personal/professional/socioeconomic bubble; 2) geolocal 
bubble .   There are probably more and they may or may not overlap 
significantly.   I use FriAM to try to force some of my own bubbles to 
impinge on one another, or perhaps to explore the interstices between 
the otherwise natural impingements...


I'm not a regular (only dropped in once or twice) vFriam participant, 
and I don't know about Merle, I think she may make a better effort than 
I and could probably be drawn into making an appearance for a topic 
*like* this if you were interested.   I'll ping her offline as well to 
see if she might be interested/available to vFriAM up on this (or some 
vaguely related) topic next week?


- Steve

Regarding "the Golden Age of Latin America", I found this (working) 
paper which moderately reflects what I think of as "the Golden Age".  I 
think they acknowledge (and maybe even explain) what you have 
experienced/observed/believe about "keeping Latin America dirt poor":


On the Latin American Growth Paradox: A Hindsight into the Golden Age
Giorgia Barboni∗and Tania Treibich† November 12, 2010
https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/89360/1/64049434X.pdf


   /In 1950, Latin American countries’ capabilities were promising:
   however, some other countries starting at the same level, or even
   below, made a better use of their initial endowments. At the time,
   countries like Argentina and Venezuela had a higher GDP per capita
   than other European countries belonging to the developed world today
   (Italy, Spain...) and many East Asian countries that have managed to
   catch up with the Western World in the last decades (see Figure 1
   below). Indeed, the data on GDP per capita over the last 60 years
   reveals that since 1950, Latin American countries have diverged from
   the Western World. With a GDP growth rate between 4 and 5 percent,
   they have fallen behind Europe which economy has reached a 20,000
   dollars per capita level today. The Latin American countries grew
   slowly until 1980 and, from then, their GDP per capita growth has
   been stationary. The only exception would be Chile which after a
   period of slow growth started an expansion period in 1980s,
   converging to the highest levels. Asian countries in comparison
   followed a convergence path, starting way lower and reaching the
   European levels of GDP per capita after fifty years of catching up.
   Castaldi et al. (2008(16)) point out that this divergence can also
   be measured by the widening productivity gap between Latin America
   and the international frontier in the last decades. Other indicators
   of education and science may also support the hypothesis that back
   then, Latin American countries had a big potential for convergence.
   Argentina, for example, was thought to be so promising that it could
   join the innovators’ club (Castaldi et al., 2008(16)). Then, what
   happened during the Golden Age (1950-1975) that prevented South
   American countries to exploit this potential for growth?/

Which is naturally just one perspective, but provides the basic idea of 
what said "Golden Age" was/is/might-be.



On 1/13/23 9:33 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

Despite living here in the middle of the world, I'm afraid I don't
give these ideas enogh serious thought these days. I interact mostly
with people who are retired and avoid deep political thought, and with
locals who don't have the education or experience to see much beyond
the local community. I REALLY MUST make myself make it a priority to
start attending the VFriam meetings on Thursday. It might be valuable.
I wonder, does Merle ever tune in? She seems the most socially
concerned (maybe even hopeful?) person on the list.

By the way, I wasn't aware that there ever was a "Golden Age of Latin
America". Care to elaborate? My view (shaped perhaps too much by
reading "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" in the early 2000s) is
that Latin America has always been dirt poor, just like the more
developed world wants it to be. First under the thumb of the USA and
USSR/Russia, and now China. No wonder dictators thrive here.

On Thu, Jan 12, 2023 at 1:31 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

GaryS, et al  -

I was recently trying to make a little more sense of the larger sociopolitical 
situation across central/south America and realized that your location in 
Ecuador might provide some useful parallax.

https://www.as-coa.org/articles/2023-elections-latin-america-preview

I was (not?) surprised to read that there was a renewed in

Re: [FRIAM] unrest in SoAm & Global ideological/sociopolitical/economic alignment...

[Gary Schiltz]

Despite living here in the middle of the world, I'm afraid I don't
give these ideas enogh serious thought these days. I interact mostly
with people who are retired and avoid deep political thought, and with
locals who don't have the education or experience to see much beyond
the local community. I REALLY MUST make myself make it a priority to
start attending the VFriam meetings on Thursday. It might be valuable.
I wonder, does Merle ever tune in? She seems the most socially
concerned (maybe even hopeful?) person on the list.

By the way, I wasn't aware that there ever was a "Golden Age of Latin
America". Care to elaborate? My view (shaped perhaps too much by
reading "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" in the early 2000s) is
that Latin America has always been dirt poor, just like the more
developed world wants it to be. First under the thumb of the USA and
USSR/Russia, and now China. No wonder dictators thrive here.

On Thu, Jan 12, 2023 at 1:31 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
> GaryS, et al  -
>
> I was recently trying to make a little more sense of the larger 
> sociopolitical situation across central/south America and realized that your 
> location in Ecuador might provide some useful parallax.
>
> https://www.as-coa.org/articles/2023-elections-latin-america-preview
>
> I was (not?) surprised to read that there was a renewed interest in "regional 
> integration".This article references Lula and Obrador and several other 
> Latin American leaders who might be attempting a broader ideological (and 
> economic) alignment/cooperation across the region.
>
> https://www.bloomberglinea.com/english/will-lula-achieve-regional-integration-in-latin-america/
>
> With the unrest of the summer triggered? by energy/fossil-fuel prices it 
> seems like Ecuador has become (temporarily, modestly) unbalanced which seems 
> like an opportunity for change, whether for better or worse.   I see in the 
> first article (Elections Preview) that Lasso has a very low approval rating 
> and the upcoming (February) elections might include/yield a recall for him?
>


> I lived on the border of AZ/MX as a teen in the early 70s and the recent 
> memory/residue of the Golden Age of Latin America was still evident.  The 
> Mexican border town (Agua Prieta) still had moderately grand facilities and 
> institutions (e.g.  A huge library with elaborate fountains on the grounds, 
> etc) even though they were not able to support them in that grandeur...   So 
> I think I still have an ideation that Latin America has many of the resources 
> or (hidden) momentum to achieve a resurgence of some sort.
>
> These reflections are partly triggered by this interview/article produced by 
> WBUR/Boston and distributed via NPR:
>
> https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2023/01/11/8-billion-earth-population-rise-human
>
> Which reminded me that while we *do* have a total-population problem with our 
> 8B and rising numbers (and 90+ % of land animal by mass being human or human 
> domesticates), the *distribution* of people, and more to the point the 
> demographic fecundity/fertility distribution is very uneven and in fact seems 
> to be inversely proportional to various features of human civilization 
> ranging from GDP to education to technological development.Some (like 
> DJT) turn this into a judgement and a reason for resentment/fear (e.g. S*hole 
> country labels) but others have a more progressive view.   An excerpt from 
> the WBUR interview/article:
>
> Jennifer Sciubba: "We're moving toward this aging and shrinking world, and we 
> are worried because we can't sustain that same huge level of economic growth 
> in the past. And we do need to think about what that might look like, so we 
> can look relook at concepts like retirement. We can look at concepts like 
> what is work life. We also, though, have to start thinking about family and 
> marriage. And, you know, we're talking about a paradigmatic shift.
>
> "That means we have to look at the world through a completely different lens 
> than we've looked at the world in the past. But all of our theories about the 
> good life, our economic theories, our political theories, those were all 
> developed under conditions of population growth and economic growth, as 
> William said. So it's really hard to get a paradigmatic shift and say, what 
> if we try to look at the world in a different way? Can we look at an aging 
> and shrinking society as a good thing? Can we look at growing older 
> individually as a good thing? We've not been good at that. And so we're kind 
> of taking that negativity and applying it at the societal level."
>
> This passage specifically references aging (individual and population) but 
> there are other references to economic/technological disparities.
>
> I also defer here to others who have an international POV (e.g. Pieter in 
> South Africa,  Sarbajit in India, Jochen in Germany, and I believe we have 
> someone from Cuba, I think we lost (off the list) Mohammed from Egypt

Re: [FRIAM] Deep learning training material

[Stephen Guerin]

On Sun, Jan 8, 2023, 2:47 AM glen  wrote:

> An old internet meme is brought to mind: "Do you even Linear Algebra,
> bro?" >8^D
>

:-) hadn't heard that one.  I found an instance related to your metal
interest.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MetalMemes/comments/f9ttei/pretty_much/fiuknrn

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[FRIAM] In a Moment, Mathematicians Merge Probability and Number Theory | Quanta Magazine

[Roger Frye]

https://www.quantamagazine.org/in-a-moment-mathematicians-merge-probability-and-number-theory-20230112/
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Re: [FRIAM] Deep learning training material

[Pieter Steenekamp]

In response to the very valuable feedback I got, including from Rus in this
group but also from others outside of this group, I reworked my deep
learning training material very significantly. For if anybody is interested
it's available from
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y5fkp10ar5ze67n/deep%20learning%20training%20rev%2013012023.zip?dl=0

Just to make sure you guys are clear about the objective of the workshop,
below is a quote from the training document.

But before I give the quote, just an answer to why am I doing this workshop?
a) There is plenty of very good material on the internet for free to go
into deep learning for people with software skills. But none (that I know
of) for those without any software expertise wanting to know and use deep
learning
b) AI is making a splash in the world right now and there are (I think)
many people without software skills yearning to know more about it.
c) It is really very easy (I think) for a professional without software
skills to acquire what's necessary to apply deep learning for applications
where tabular data is available to train the deep learning. This workshop
intends to do exactly that.

Now for the quote from the training material:

"This workshop aims to provide a broad overview of deep learning
principles, rather than focusing on technical details. The goal is to give
you a sense of how deep learning can be used to make predictions on
practical problems using labeled data in spreadsheet form. By the end of
the workshop, you will have the skills to apply deep learning to address
challenges in your area of expertise.

During this workshop, we will be utilizing R or Python programming
languages as a means of configuring and making predictions with labeled
data in spreadsheet form. However, it is crucial to note that the primary
focus of the workshop is not on programming itself, but rather on the
fundamental concepts and techniques of deep learning. We will provide
template programs that can be used with minimal modifications, and the main
emphasis will be on guidance and exercises to solidify participants'
understanding of the material. For those with little to no prior
programming experience, we have included an optional section to introduce
basic concepts of R or Python, but it is important to note that this
section is only intended to provide a basic understanding and will not make
you an expert in programming."


Pieter

On Mon, 9 Jan 2023 at 20:32, Steve Smith  wrote:

> The "celebration of the hand" project (coordinated with UNM's Maxwell
> museum of anthropology) is nearly 15 years defunct now.   We made a tiny
> bit of progress on some LANL small-business-assistance time from an ML
> researcher, a small bit of seed-funding and matching time on my own part.
> The key to this was the newly available prosumer-grade laser-scanners of
> the time, as well as emerging photogrammetric techniques.
>
> The point of the project was to augment what humans were already doing...
> both pointing to similarities too subtle for a human to notice or based on
> dimensions a human expert wouldn't be able to identify directly.   I
> haven't touched bases on where that field has gone in most of that
> intervening time.   My paleontological/archaelogical partner in that
> endeavor went his own way (he was more interested in developing a lifestyle
> business for himself than actually applying advanced techniques to the
> problem at "hand" (pun acknowledged)) and then a few years later he died
> which is part of the reason for not (re)visiting it myself...
>
> The relevant issue to the linked article(s) is mostly that we were
> building modelless models (model-free learning) from the data with the hope
> (assumption?) that *some* of the features that might emerge as being good
> correlates to related/identical "hands" might be ones that humans could
> detect or make sense of themselves.   The state of the art at the time was
> definitely an "art" and was based on the expertise of contemporary flint
> knappers trying to reproduce the patterns found in non-contemporary
> artifacts.   We did not do any actual work (just speculation guided
> background research) on pottery and textiles...  the Maxwell museum
> researcher we worked with was also "overcome by events" simply needing to
> develop the exhibits and not having time/focus to attend to the more
> researchy aspects...  her interest was more on textiles than ceramics or
> lithics... which seemed to be the area we likely had the least advantage
> over human-experts.
>
> My niece works at the U of Az Archaelogy dept cataloging the accellerating
> number of artifacts coming in.   At some point I can imagine an automated
> classification system taking over much of the "mundane" aspects of this
> work...   like a self-driving car that at least provides collision
> avoidance and lane following...
>
>
> On 1/9/23 10:29 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>
> Thanks for the references, I've briefly looked at them and am looking
> forward