Re: [FRIAM] Octogenarian Omnicron

[Curt McNamara]

This site has the best info i have found:
https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/

   Curt

On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 1:05 PM  wrote:

> Anybody,
>
>
>
> Has you seen anywhere the number, Prob Omnicron|vaccinated+boosted or Prob
> [Omnicron + Hospitalization] | vaccinated+boosted ?
>
>
>
> Bayesian or otherwise?
>
>
>
> I have seen the number Prob Omnicron| unboosted = 25x Prob
> Omnicron|Boosted.   But I have no idea of its provenance.
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Frank Wimberly 
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 8, 2022 12:00 PM
> *To:* Nicholas Thompson 
> *Subject:* Re: Film
>
>
>
> Multiple people have said that everyone will get infected but that we
> vaxed and boosted folks will have mild cases and that some might not know
> they had it.  Even among octos.
>
>
>
> My slogan is "stay home as much as possible."  One of our tennis group who
> is 87 just left on a trip to Key West and Cancun.  He ignored my advice but
> at the last minute changed his second destination to Miami instead of
> Mexico.  He did it because of the quarantine requirement rather than fear
> of Covid.  I hear that Florida is exploding with cases.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 8, 2022, 9:48 AM  wrote:
>
> Hi, Frank,
>
>
>
> Well, we watch films on my computer, balanced on a pillow, itself balanced
> on Penny’s Left and my Right knee.  We are working through Rake (Amazon),
> bawdy, funny, painful, very well done, and the Beatles thing (Disney) , Get
> Back, both chaotic and serene, in some way, so we don’t have NetFlix right
> now.  But as soon as those are done, we will turn to you movie.
>
>
>
> I have done nothing more on Sober.  Have been wringing my hands about
> Omicron.  Seems like perhaps we octogenarians should perhaps locking down
> so as to delay our inevitable infection till after the peak.
>
>
>
> I spent about an hour this morning trying to come up with the breakthrough
> rate for we triple boosted folk.  The only statistic I could come up with
> was that boosting increased ones resistance to infection by 25x.  I don’t
> know how they could know that without knowing what I want to know, but they
> ain’t saying.  I am wondering if Penny and I should go into lockdown to
> delay the inevitable to after the hospitalization peak.
>
>
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Frank Wimberly 
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 8, 2022 8:02 AM
> *To:* Nicholas Thompson 
> *Subject:* Fwd: Film
>
>
>
> This is relevant to our discussion of are our sources of truth more
> reliable than "theirs".  You really should see it.  It's on Netflix.
>
>
>
> Why don't you get a small flat screen TV for watching Rachel and movies.
> You wouldn't have to get TV service.  You just plug it into your computer.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: *Frank Wimberly* 
> Date: Fri, Jan 7, 2022, 8:40 PM
> Subject: Film
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>
>
>
> The film "Don't Look Up" came up in this morning's meeting.  We saw it
> this evening. I now see it was mentioned.  It's outstanding in my opinion.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Weird observation

[Curt McNamara]

Actually the question was about the nurse :-) and (from my understanding)
the dynamics of medicine is such that nurses *don't* give doctors feedback
on things like this. So the good advice here (which i agree with) would
need to be passed onto the doctor directly

   Curt

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> Perhaps the first step needs to be "How sensitive is this patient to
> bedside manner?", and from that estimate then prioritize the relative
> timing of one sort of analysis over another.   I assume I'm dealing with an
> intelligent, if imperfect, person.I think it takes some self-control to
> be a good patient, too.
>
> On 7/13/18, 9:13 AM, "Friam on behalf of ∄ uǝʃƃ" <
> friam-boun...@redfish.com on behalf of geprope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Perhaps.  But if that's the case, I would immediately leave and find
> another Dr.  As I explained before, and is peppered throughout Renee's
> training, the "assessment of the patient", which involves really *looking*
> at the patient, is more powerful than any other (set of) metric(s).
>
> To be clear, the patient assessment machine can be completely
> autistic.  But they must "assess the patient" by looking at her.
>
> On 07/13/2018 08:06 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > Is it not possible the doctor looking at her computer is just like
> Glen listening to music without moving?Focusing on the facts of the
> matter and not on distracting emotional signals?
> >
> > On 7/13/18, 9:03 AM, "Friam on behalf of ∄ uǝʃƃ" <
> friam-boun...@redfish.com on behalf of geprope...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > For what it's worth, my Dr. thanked me after our 1st
> interaction.  He walked in with his laptop, sat down and started poking at
> it.  I then used my familiarity with electronic medical records (I was a
> product mgr at such a company at one point) to finagle his attention and
> demonstrate our mutual affinity for how computation can help him provide
> good healthcare.  I even explained how I'd looked him up online beforehand
> and knew all the schools he went to and that he had no active malpractice
> suits against him.  (Which was no small feat since he's an immigrant from
> India.)
> >
> > That interaction successfully grabbed his attention.  Perhaps,
> since you're also computer literate, you could use the same trick next time
> a Dr's attention is too focused on the computer?
> >
> > On 07/13/2018 07:48 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > > It is a bigger problem that people are more concerned about
> `getting along’ than they are about maintaining a functional government.
> > > As for doctors, I don’t want them to my friend.   I want them
> to take their limited time and focus their extensive training, to
> rationalize the symptoms I present.
> > >
> > > From: Friam  on behalf of Gillian
> Densmore 
> > > Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> > > Date: Friday, July 13, 2018 at 8:39 AM
> > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> > > Subject: [FRIAM] Weird observation
> > >
> > > While at doctor's office trying ask a nurse to politely
> express to a doctor that it comes off as rude when that doc is obssed with
> a computer gets a reaction like you've invented warp drive.
> > >
> > > Is it really that unusual for people to try to actively be
> cordial these days? If so captian we got a problem!
>
>
> --
> ∄ uǝʃƃ
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXT] Re: A pluralistic model of the mind?

[Curt McNamara]

This discussion reminded me of two books:

The Mechanical Mind by Crane
https://books.google.com/books?id=fIzWix4CPxkC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
In it the author makes clear that all thinking is tied to (some kind) of
experience. Which is different from AI (at this time).

The Order of Time by Rovelli
https://books.google.com/books?id=YvM3DwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Rovelli makes it clear there is no single time -- it is different for you
and me, different on the mountain top, and there is "less of it" near large
masses. Time is discrete, and has a lower allowable limit.

Curt

On Mon, Dec 9, 2019 at 7:20 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> I think we've gotten somewhere.
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2019, 4:08 AM Prof David West  wrote:
>
>> Nick,
>>
>> No need to be ill at ease — I do not mean illusory in, or with, any
>> sense/degree/intimation of dualism.
>>
>> Ultimately, either: I am more of a monist than thou. Or, you are equally
>> a mystic as I.
>>
>> You cannot speak of Experience without explicitly or implicitly asserting
>> an Experiencer --->> dualism. If there is an Experience "of which you
>> cannot speak," or of which "whatever is spoken is incorrect or incomplete;"
>> then you are as much a mystic as Lao Tzu and the Tao.
>>
>> Because your sensibilities will not allow you to admit your mysticism, I
>> offer an alternative: you are an epistemological monist but not an
>> ontological monist. On the latter point; I have already accused you of
>> believing in an ontological "Thing" other than experience: a human soul or
>> essence or spirit.
>>
>> My monism is both ontological (except for the myth that infinitely long
>> ago, and infinitely in the future, there were two things "intelligence" and
>> "matter") and epistemological (accepting that my epistemology is ineffable).
>>
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, at 8:49 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Hi, David,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for channeling me so accurately.  It is a talent to channel what
>> one does not agree with so faithfully that the person channeled is
>> satisfied.   Thank you for that.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would have only one ill-ease, about the last part of your version:
>>
>>
>>
>> *both equally illusory.*
>>
>>
>>
>> I think “illusory” is used here, in your way, not in the way I would use
>> it, but to refer to the world that truly is but which we an never truly
>> grasp.  I.e., dualistically.  For me, an illusion is just an experience
>> that does not prove out.  I arrive at my coffee house three days in a row
>> and there is a “day old” old-fashioned plain donut available for purchase
>> at half price.  I experience that “donut at 4” is something I can count
>> on.  That turns out not to be the case because, another customer starts
>> coming in at 3.59 and commandeering all the donuts.  My experience was
>> illusory.  Or, think flips of a coin.  You flip a coin 7 times heads and
>> you come to the conclusion that the coin is biased.  However, you flip it a
>> thousand times more and its behavior over the 1007 flips is consistent with
>> randomness.  You come to the conclusion that the bias was probably an
>> illusion.
>>
>>
>>
>> My understanding of illusory is probabilistic and provisional.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> *thompnicks...@gmail.com
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>> *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 6, 2019 10:16 AM
>> *To:* friam@redfish.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [EXT] Re: A pluralistic model of the mind?
>>
>>
>>
>> I dare not really speak for Nick, but I think the essence of his position
>> is that there is no "out there" nor is there any "in here." There is only a
>> flow of "experience" that is sometimes "evaluated" (interpreted?) to a
>> false distinction of in or out — both equally illusory.
>>
>>
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019, at 3:27 PM, John Kennison wrote:
>>
>> Hi Nick, and Eric,
>>
>>
>>
>> I am grappling with Nick's ideas that mental states must be physical
>> things and even are "out there" rather than "in here". What about
>> delusions? If I think I see bear in the woods but I am mistaken, is this
>> false perception "out there" even when the bear is not?
>>
>>
>>
>> --John
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Eric Charles <
>> eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 5, 2019 8:41 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* [EXT] Re: [FRIAM] A pluralistic model of

Re: [FRIAM] climate change questions

[Curt McNamara]

Per Prof West's comments --

In some cases you state degrees F and in others the scale is unspecified.
It is good to keep the scale consistent. The IPCC uses degrees C.

For a good overview of the IPCC (including brief summaries of models) see
the wikipedia page. Since the IPCC is a large group which operates by
consensus their summaries and predictions are conservative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPCC_Fourth_Assessment_Report

For what to do, consider Project Drawdown. They interviewed multiple
stakeholders and created models which were then ranked by effectiveness.
https://www.drawdown.org/

>From my understanding, most of the difference between early models and
actual data was due to: oceans warming (i.e. absorbing heat) and global
dimming. If you are interested I can send links. IMHO it is great that the
models are evolving, and that things (so far) are slower than prediction.
Like many others, the current data on tipping points is very concerning to
me.

  Curt

On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 10:45 AM Prof David West 
wrote:

> Questions,  that do NOT, in any manner or form deny the reality of climate
> change.
>
> In 1990, citing the "best scientific models available" stated that because
> of carbon dioxide emissions, the Earth would warm by an average of 3
> degrees Fahrenheit and the U.S. as the largest producer, by an average of 6
> degrees Fahrenheit by 2020.
>
> The UN IPCC report of the same year predicted a range of temperature
> increases ranging from 1-5 degrees F, with the most likely expectations
> being 3-5 by the year 2020.
>
> The current report predicts a rise of 2-5 degrees by 2100.
>
> The New York Times, CNN, and the President of Exxon USA predicted the end
> of domestic oil and gas reserves by 2020.
>
> The undisputed rise in Earth (and US) temperature as of 2020 is 1 degree.
>
> Exactly how does one go about constructing a reasoned, and accurate,
> argument for the need to address climate change in the context of badly
> incorrect predictions, grounded in the best available scientific models,
> and over-hyped "disaster scenarios" promulgated by those with political or
> simply "circulation" motives.
>
> In light of this context of "error" and "hype," is it fair to tar everyone
> expressing questions or doubts with the same "deny-er" brush?
>
> Is it possible to constructively criticize either the models or the
> proposed "solutions" without being dismissed as a troglodyte "deny-er?"
>
> Is there a way to evaluate a spectrum of means (eliminating coal to carbon
> scrubbers to ...) along with analyses of cost/benefit ratios, human
> socio-economic impact, etc. and compare them?
>
> Is there more than one strategy for getting out of this mess; and if so,
> how do we decide (and/or construct a blend) on one that will optimize our
> chances?
>
> davew
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] climate change questions

[Curt McNamara]

Prof West comments on carbon offsets - "I can't see exactly how my money
actually does something other than line someone's pockets; and it feels a
whole lot like spitting on a forest fire.  There must be a better way to
spend my funds."

Quite a few years ago i calculated my ecological footprint. Even with all
the cool stuff* :-) i was doing, there was still significant impact. And a
good part of that was flying occasionally. I had also heard that offsets
were sketchy, and that some folks said they would just encourage people to
use more fossil fuels.

After digging into it for a while I found a couple organizations where the
projects are third party certified. The one i use is TerraPass. It costs me
about $15 a month to offset more carbon than i consume. And it goes to good
projects. Perfect? No. Continuously improving? Yes. What would happen if a
few million concerned about climate change signed up? Wow.

One reason I do as much as i can: kids, nieces, nephews, and the nature
that i love so much. And i agree that waiting for government to act is
futile.

I still do a lot of cool stuff and actually manage some land with climate
in mind (which seems like the next step up).

And i continually look for ways (like Project Drawdown) to be more
effective.

 Curt

* year round biking, very low auto use; high efficiency home insulation;
setback thermostat; no ac; purchase wind energy; eat local food (mostly
plants); educate those who are interested.
On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 4:09 PM Prof David West  wrote:

> Nick,
>
> The last sentence simply stated that human activities contribute, almost
> certainly critically, to the problem. And the only causal factors that we
> might be able to change are those same human activities.
>
> What is being stipulated is that humans, individually and collectively,
> must be the change agents. Other contributory causes like solar cycles,
> natural climate cycles, etc. cannot change or be changed.
>
> Sorry if the terseness of the original expression led to ambiguity.
>
> As to trust - yes, I am arrogant enough to believe I can follow an
> argument and understand the premises / assumptions / and conclusions of the
> models and reports produced by the experts. No, I do not understand the
> math or the specialized science. But, if the experts cannot express
> themselves clearly enough to meet me half-way then they are no better than
> witch doctors explaining how voudun works.
>
> The other dimension of trust mentioned involves avoiding being manipulated
> (politicians, rent-seekers, ecological cultists - and they do exist) or
> defrauded.
>
> Two examples, I am very leery of purchasing carbon offsets for the only
> way I have to go home once in a while - jet travel. A couple of reasons: I
> can't see exactly how my money actually does something other than line
> someone's pockets; and it feels a whole lot like spitting on a forest
> fire.  There must be a better way to spend my funds.
>
> I don't see the point in supporting politicians like Ocasio-Cortez or even
> Warren and trying to convince people to give up their cars or quit eating
> meat in order to reduce the amount of carbon being put into the atmosphere,
> simply because I have zero belief that it will happen. I do see a greater
> likelihood that money contributed to research on carbon scrubbers will
> result in something that will help and will be actually put into play.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 1, 2020, at 8:44 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Please see larding below.
>
>
>
> My larder is still broken, but it should work well enough.
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 1, 2020 12:19 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] climate change questions
>
>
>
> convict of what?
>
> premeditated Gaia murder?
>
> voluntary climate slaughter?
>
> involuntary climate slaughter?
>
> reckless endangerment?
>
> conspiracy to commit climate change?
>
> accessory after the fact?
>
> *[NST===>] All of the above. *
>
>
>
> Not trying to be either specious or difficult. I would be ready to vote in
> favor of human activity contributing the "tipping point factor" but not the
> cause.
>
> *[NST===>] As a philosophy camp-follower, I am curious about the
> distinction, but right now we have a planet to save.*
>
>
>
>
>
> The following is stipulated:
>
>
>
>  - Dr. Kwok, et. al. are correctly reporting phenomena and consequences.
>
> *[NST===>] Is the whole jury prepared to “convict” on these counts?  I am
> sorry, I should probably stop punning on “convict”, here.   I guess the
> real question is, are these proposition upon which we are all prepared to
> act?*
>
>  - The planet is getting warmer.
>
>  - Human activities are a critical component of the cause, and the only
> factors that might be

Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

[Curt McNamara]

With all due respect -- I have looked through these missives and this prose
in vain for any deep examination of metaphor.

For background: the natural systems working group of INCOSE is studying
metaphor as a fundamental skill for designers and engineers interested in
transferring biological "solutions" to the world of design. One thing we
have taken away: to transfer something via metaphor requires that the
(system) attributes "drop away" and that the (systemic) relations are what
is transferred between the domains.

We put a few papers in this folder:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/j4sdk4jflrxsv45/AADEcCHI9dO4n3AtqrYutuy6a?dl=0

The work of Dedre Gentner seems fundamental to us.

   Curt

On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 11:46 PM, Nick Thompson 
wrote:

> Dear Friammers,
>
>
>
> I understand that some members of the Mother Church are getting together
> soon for a discussion on the role of Metaphor in Scientific Thought.  Hard
> for me to imagine a meeting that I would regret missing more than this
> one.  I hope that some of you will post some of your deliberations under
> this thread so that those of us in the Friam diaspora can have some of the
> value of them.
>
>
>
> FWLIW, The attached PDF is from a book manuscript,  pieces of which have
> been kicking around for more than 40 years, which Eric Charles has been
> trying unsuccessfully to get me to pull together into something
> publishable. If any of you is curious, the text will help you to understand
> the things I said in the recent complexity discussion and their relation to
> the “levels” discussion and the metaphor discussion that follows.  The
> specific discussion on metaphor is late in the pdf, so that if that is what
> interests you, you can safely skip to the first section on models.  For me,
> a model is just a scientific metaphor. Full stop.
>
>
>
> If anybody had comments to share, we, of course, would be deeply grateful.
>
>
>
> There are more chapters.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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Re: [FRIAM] Friday 9/14 at the NMHM - The Future of Collaboration

[Curt McNamara]

I am interested in attending. Live and work in MN however I could fit this
in with a trip to Denver the following week.

I am a design engineer, scholar of Bucky Fuller, biomimicry education
fellow, and teach online sustainable design classes through MCAD.
Interested in how I can get my students doing more collaboration.

   Curt

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/curt-mcnamara-m-eng-p-e/3/b21/b89


On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 8:05 PM, Tom Johnson  wrote:

>
> All:
>
> My Institute for Analytic Journalism is co-sponsoring this, but that
> aside, the topic is key for not just scientific endeavors, but for the
> survival and advancement of all organizations hoping to function in the
> Digital Age.  "Collaboration" here refers to work inside an organization as
> well as with entities outside.
>
> We will limit this to ~25 participants, so let me know quickly if you
> would like to attend.
>
> All the best,
> Tom
>
> *
> ==
> *
>
> On Friday September 14th we'd like to spend the day exploring the future
> of collaboration - from science and models to physical settings to
> technological tools to psychological frameworks to who knows what else.
>
> My partners and I have been involved in designing and facilitating large
> group collaborative planning processes for more than 20 years. We're
> basically system integrators - where collaboration includes an appreciation
> for systems, design, creativity (knowledge of a creative process),
> behavioral dynamics, group process, and a whole lot of other stuff. But all
> that is 'old.' We'd like to bust out of some of our ways of thinking about
> how collaboration works and explore new territory and potentially new ways
> of approaching how people work, learn, solve problems and collaborate in
> person and across time and space.
>
> Some of the questions to stimulate conversation during the day might
> include:
>
>- Where is all this social, mobile, cloud and big data trends headed?
>What's next?
>- What's the influence of these trends on how people will collaborate?
>- What other trends are important and might influence how people
>collaborate in the future?
>
>
>- How does complex adaptive systems and complexity theory play into
>the way people will collaborate in the future?
>- What about patch theory?
>- What neurological research will influence the way we work and learn?
>- Is there a structured way to create organic, emergent behavior in
>groups?
>
>
>- What's the difference between same time, same place collaboration
>(face to face) and same time different place collaboration (virtual) or
>different time different place (asynchronous)? What other modes will 
> emerge?
>- How would we define the landscape of collaboration (for individuals
>and groups)?
>
>
>- What is the relationship between creativity, design and
>collaboration?
>- What are the right uses for collaboration?
>- When is structure required for collaboration?
>- When is no structure 'required' for collaboration?
>
>
>- What's unique about how large organizations will collaborate across
>time and geography?
>- What tools will individuals use?
>- What tools will organizations use?
>- Is there a 'mash up' that would uniquely impact the way people work
>and learn?
>- What's the difference between collaboration for getting work done
>and collaboration for learning?
>- What is particularly important about the 'place' where collaboration
>happens?
>
> What other questions might drive conversation and/or insights?
>
> We'll document the results of the conversation and make that available to
> everyone who attends.
>
> Everyone is invited! AND, please let me know if there are people that
> should be invited to the conversation. Scientists? Physicists?
> Psychologists? Behaviorist? Artists? Designers? SFI fellows? Please share
> the invitation with anyone you feel might find value and/or have a point of
> view about any of the above.
>
>
> *Date*
> September 14, 2012
>
> *Location*
> New Mexico History Museum
> 113 Lincoln Avenue
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> (505) 476-5200
> the best entrance is on the other side of the block at 114 Washington Ave,
> Santa Fe (across the street from the Inn of the Anasazi and the Hotel
> Chimayo).
>
> Look for the sign that says: *IAJ Collaboration Workshop*
>
>
> *Times*
> 8:30 AM to 5PM (or until we have exhausted the topic)
>
> We'll break for lunch in 

Re: [FRIAM] Friday 9/14 at the NMHM - The Future of Collaboration

[Curt McNamara]

Cool! I will have to try it out. I use mind mapping with my students, and
just helped Len Troncale map some of his systems isomorphies using cmap
tools.

You can find some of the background for that work in a paper linked here:
http://lentroncale.com/?page_id=10

Other readers might be interested in his work on systems pathology
mentioned here:
http://lentroncale.com/?page_id=94

Thanks for the reply!

   Curt

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Ron Newman  wrote:

> Curt,
> I couldn't help responding...
> Biomimicry was the original inspiration for my collaboration software
> company, MyIdeaTree.com.  Especially Janine Benyus' book (I lived in
> Montana at the time, her home state).  I also interviewed one of the people
> featured in her book while in Santa Barbara.  Gad you are coming!
>
>
> Ron
> --
> Ron Newman
> MyIdeatree.com <http://www.Ideatree.us>
> The World Happiness Meter <http://worldhappinessmeter.com>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Curt McNamara  wrote:
>
>> I am interested in attending. Live and work in MN however I could fit
>> this in with a trip to Denver the following week.
>>
>> I am a design engineer, scholar of Bucky Fuller, biomimicry education
>> fellow, and teach online sustainable design classes through MCAD.
>> Interested in how I can get my students doing more collaboration.
>>
>>Curt
>>
>> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/curt-mcnamara-m-eng-p-e/3/b21/b89
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 8:05 PM, Tom Johnson  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> All:
>>>
>>> My Institute for Analytic Journalism is co-sponsoring this, but that
>>> aside, the topic is key for not just scientific endeavors, but for the
>>> survival and advancement of all organizations hoping to function in the
>>> Digital Age.  "Collaboration" here refers to work inside an organization as
>>> well as with entities outside.
>>>
>>> We will limit this to ~25 participants, so let me know quickly if you
>>> would like to attend.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> *
>>> ==
>>> *
>>>
>>> On Friday September 14th we'd like to spend the day exploring the future
>>> of collaboration - from science and models to physical settings to
>>> technological tools to psychological frameworks to who knows what else.
>>>
>>> My partners and I have been involved in designing and facilitating large
>>> group collaborative planning processes for more than 20 years. We're
>>> basically system integrators - where collaboration includes an appreciation
>>> for systems, design, creativity (knowledge of a creative process),
>>> behavioral dynamics, group process, and a whole lot of other stuff. But all
>>> that is 'old.' We'd like to bust out of some of our ways of thinking about
>>> how collaboration works and explore new territory and potentially new ways
>>> of approaching how people work, learn, solve problems and collaborate in
>>> person and across time and space.
>>>
>>> Some of the questions to stimulate conversation during the day might
>>> include:
>>>
>>>- Where is all this social, mobile, cloud and big data trends
>>>headed? What's next?
>>>- What's the influence of these trends on how people will
>>>collaborate?
>>>- What other trends are important and might influence how people
>>>collaborate in the future?
>>>
>>>
>>>- How does complex adaptive systems and complexity theory play into
>>>the way people will collaborate in the future?
>>>- What about patch theory?
>>>- What neurological research will influence the way we work and
>>>learn?
>>>- Is there a structured way to create organic, emergent behavior in
>>>groups?
>>>
>>>
>>>- What's the difference between same time, same place collaboration
>>>(face to face) and same time different place collaboration (virtual) or
>>>different time different place (asynchronous)? What other modes will 
>>> emerge?
>>>- How would we define the landscape of collaboration (for
>>>individuals and groups)?
>>>
>>>
>>>- What is the relationship between creativity, design and
>>>collaboration?
>>>- What are the right uses for collaboration?
>

Re: [FRIAM] faith, zombies, and crazy people (was America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist)

[Curt McNamara]

And to tie this into the other discussion:

The CDC is looking out for you:
http://www.cdc.gov/phpr/zombies/#/page/1

Curt

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Robert Holmes wrote:

> You guys clearly know too much about philosophy and not enough about
> zombies. Your notion that there is a single type of zombie has long been
> discredited. Here's a handy chart that I hope can inform your discussion.
>
> http://www.geekologie.com/image.php?path=/2010/10/05/zombie-chart-full.jpg
>
> —R
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Nicholas Thompson <
> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Glen,
>>
>> Wow!  This Zombie thing is WAY more complicated than I thought it was.
>> Although I haven't read any Kant first hand, I hear him lurking in the
>> background.  For me, a thermostat/furnace system is a telic system.  It
>> acts
>> in such a way as to maintain a set point.  So do I, sometimes.  Me and my
>> furnace: we are telic systems.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On
>> Behalf
>> Of glen ropella
>> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 9:49 AM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> Subject: [FRIAM] faith, zombies, and crazy people (was America and the
>> Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist)
>>
>> On 09/14/2012 06:56 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>> > For me, consciousness is a point of view, and any telic system has a
>> > point of view.  Zombies are telic systems, no?
>>
>> That's a great question.  I would answer no.  Zombies cannot be telic (as
>> I
>> understand that word, of course) because they are enslaved by their
>> context.
>> They are not ends in and of themselves.  They are tools whose purpose has
>> been installed in them by some non-zombie actor.
>>
>> FWIW, the Rosenites would disagree with me.  They'd claim that a zombie
>> (were such possible) would be an organism closed to efficient cause
>> (agency).  From this, they claim such closure allows anticipation, which,
>> in
>> turn, allows final cause (purpose) ... all without any requirement for
>> _consciousness_ ... but with a requirement for reflective self-reference
>> (aka closure).  Getting from reflection to consciousness might not be that
>> hard.  And I support them in their quest. ;-)  But they haven't proven the
>> closure to me.  I believe we organisms are only partially closed (to any
>> of
>> the causes).  Complete closure, in any of the causes, looks more like
>> death
>> to me.  So, there's something missing from their framework ... to the
>> limited extent to which I understand it.
>>
>> Now, we might be able to reverse engineer a tool's purpose from its
>> attributes.  And in that sense, a zombie might express a goal or purpose
>> and
>> be called "telic" ... but that purpose would not be its _own_.
>> Perhaps a tool is telic, but it's not autotelic.
>>
>> And this is where "faith" and "crazy" enter.  When we can't reverse
>> engineer
>> a person's purpose ... or more accurately ... when we can't empathize ...
>> we
>> can't tell ourselves a story in which context their actions make sense,
>> then
>> they're "acting on faith" or they're crazy.  It is this ability to
>> empathize
>> ... for your neurons to be stimulated similarly to your referent's by
>> observing their behavior ... that presents us with the zombie paradox.  On
>> the one hand, telling a believable story turns you into a _machine_, a
>> tool,
>> without personal responsibility or accountability.  ("My parents made me
>> this way!")  But on the other hand, not telling a story makes you alien,
>> crazy, a wart that has to be removed.
>>
>> Interesting people walk that fine line between adequately explaining
>> themselves but leaving just enough craziness and mystery to preserve their
>> identity, to avoid being a zombie.  I usually fail and am often accused of
>> being a tool. >8^)
>>
>> > Anyway, if you are curious, it's laid out in the conversation with the
>> > Devils Advocate on page 16 of the attached.
>> >
>> > Let me know what you think, if you have time to look at it.
>>
>> I will read it.  Thanks.  But in case it's not obvious, you must know
>> that I
>> don't take this stuff very seriously.  I only think/talk about this stuff
>> to
>> distract me from work.  ;-)  So, it's unlikely that I'll be able to give
>> it
>> the attention that it and you deserve.
>>
>> --
>> glen  =><= Hail Eris!
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives,
>> unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>
>
>
> 
> FRI

Re: [FRIAM] faith

[Curt McNamara]

I had been nicely ignoring this thread in the belief (faith?) that it would
go away without affecting me. Alas, the need for a distraction from grading
has drawn me back into its basin of (strange) attraction.

Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't
have to track every one exactly.
Action based on belief: ref. William Powers: Behavior, the Control of
Perception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_control_theory

Faith or belief: my mental models of the world will still be true tomorrow.
These models have been built over time by hypothesis, testing, and
adjustment (toddler and stairs example).

   Curt

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] Faith

[Curt McNamara]

There are different types of buddhism: zen and Tibetan are different and
are both from the Mahayana side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

  Curt

http://inwardpathpublisher.blogspot.com/2010/05/your-religion-is-not-important.html

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Russ Abbott  wrote:

> I'm not really buying that. My sense of modern (and especially western)
> Buddhism seems pretty God-free.
>
> *-- Russ Abbott*
> *_*
> ***  Professor, Computer Science*
> *  California State University, Los Angeles*
>
> *  My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688*
> *  Google voice: 747-*999-5105
>   Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/
> *  vita:  *sites.google.com/site/russabbott/
>   CS Wiki  and the courses I teach
> *_*
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
>> Buddhism may not have "a God" but Buddhism belief has "gods" who are
>> superior beings existing at various planes of existence. Their gods,
>> called "Devas", apparently exist at the highest plane of existence
>> well above humans, and animals, and various beings condemned
>> in past lives to inhabit hell (the lowest planes). Buddhism's "demons"
>> called "Asuras" occupy another zone.
>>
>> However, in Zorastrianism, conversely the gods are called "Ahuras" and
>> the demons are called "Daevas" (root  terms of devil):
>>
>> So it seems possible that all these zones / planes are actually
>> political statements referring to events in some hoary past at an
>> indeterminate location.
>> http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/religion.htm
>> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20583/20583-h/20583-h.htm
>> (page 287)
>>
>> Re: Buddhism as a religion:
>> BTW: Are we referring to "God" as "creator- God" ?
>>
>> On 9/23/12, Russ Abbott  wrote:
>> > Thanks, Sarbajit. As I understand it Buddhism does not have a God. Does
>> > that mean you would not classify it as a religion?
>> >
>> > -- Russ
>> >
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] The Professors' Big Stage

[Curt McNamara]

Just curious - how many of you have actually signed up for and completed a
MOOC?

If the answer is not yet, then consider jumping onto Scott Pages excellent
model thinking course that is just starting.

Curt

https://www.coursera.org/course/modelthinking
On Mar 7, 2013 6:19 PM, "glen"  wrote:

>
> I only had 2 years of very large lectures freshman and sophomore years
> of college.  My k12 and the rest of college consisted mostly of your
> (2), varying degrees of personal relationships with teachers.
>
> My (3) was limited because I'm a kook and don't play well with others.
> But the few peers I did interact with became lifelong teachers to me.
> I'm still friends with most of them.
>
> Frankly, I get very little out of lectures.  If it's not interactive and
> exploratory, it's largely wasted on me.  The only reason I survived my
> 1st two college years was because my high school classes covered much of
> that material and I was too chicken to try to test out of those classes.
>  There was a horrifying bridge period the second half of my second year
> in college and much of my third year that tested my resolve.  I did very
> poorly.  Then it picked up quite a bit when I started taking classes
> where thought was valued over testing skills.
>
> Nicholas Thompson wrote at 03/07/2013 04:03 PM:
> > I am curious to know what the folks on this list think an education
> > consists in.   For me, it consisted in
> >
> > (1) Many large lectures  of which most were stultifying beyond
> > belief, but of which a few were inspiring.
> >
> > (2)A few settings where I made direct contact with professors (or
> > good TA;s)  and was taught how to do stuff and my work was critiqued in
> > meaningful ways.
> >
> > (3)Many, many interactions with very smart peers in which they
> > taught me and I got to try my ideas out on them.
> >
> >
> >
> > Was your experience different from that?
>
>
> --
> =><= glen e. p. ropella
> I came up from the ground, i came down from the sky,
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

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Re: [FRIAM] Learning by transcribing/translating: was TPBS

[Curt McNamara]

Mock-Socratic? Sort of like this discussion list where we are supposedly
discussing however just responding based on the words.

While I can see the value of professional notes (at least then you will
know what the prof thought important) it seems to me most lecture type
learning happens when I transcribe the words into another format for
myself.

To me, mind mapping a book or presenting the material to someone else is
how I actually comprehend it.

  Curt

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Barry MacKichan <
barry.mackic...@mackichan.com> wrote:

> … Coming in at the tail of this (I have my mail program turned off most of
> the day), but I have a few comments.
>
> I'm still trying to get my head around the concept of a "Socratic" course
> delivered through a remote, time-shifted medium. Is it virtual-Socratic?
> meta-Socratic? voyeur-Socratic?
>
> Several courses in the math PhD program at Stanford had students paid to
> take official notes. It cost very little to Xerox these and save myself
> many hours. Some lectures were pretty useless, but I went for the sake of
> the ego of the lecturer. In a quarter course by Kunihiko Kodaira, I
> understood only two words; "theolem" and "ploof". But he was a very nice,
> earnest man, as well as a Fields Medal winner.
>
>
> --Barry
>
> On Mar 6, 2013, at 8:31 PM, Owen Densmore  wrote:
>
> You see, I was picked up at Logan Airport by my old friend Michael Sandel,
> who teaches the famous Socratic, 1,000-student “Justice” course at Harvard,
> which is launching March 12 as the first humanities offering on the
> M.I.T.-Harvard edX online learning platform.
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] beyond reductionism twice

[Curt McNamara]

Kaufman also neglects Prigogine in his books.

 Curt
On Mar 25, 2013 12:18 PM, "glen e. p. ropella" 
wrote:

> Roger Critchlow wrote at 03/25/2013 07:55 AM:
> > http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5684
> >
> > Stu Kauffman on the varieties of laws and entailments.
>
> Wow, seriously?  A paper on the exact same subject as Robert Rosen's big
> works and not a single citation of Rosen, even to call him wrong?  What
> am I missing?
>
> --
> glen e. p. ropella, 971-255-2847, http://tempusdictum.com
> There is nothing as permanent as a temporary government program. --
> Milton Friedman
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

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Re: [FRIAM] mooc stuff

[Curt McNamara]

Reminds me of A Clockwork Orange (*not* my favorite movie).

Curt


On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Jack Stafurik wrote:

> Here is a link to a Washington Post article on mooc:
>
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-innovations/in-education-innovatio
>
> n-moocs-are-only-the-beginning/2013/03/29/88d77ae6-97ef-11e2-814b-063623d80a
> 60_story.html?wpisrc=nl_tech
>
> At friam this morning we talked about whether this approach could be used
> to
> develop a "best" teaching approach. The last three paragraphs of this
> article gave an interesting perspective on how this can be done. It's
> copied
> below:
>
> "But is there a method of detecting whether a student has learned anything?
> Quizzes and tests are imperfect measures. Enter, sensor-based technology,
> which could detect the interest, learning, and emotion of the student.
>
> For example, NeuroSky markets a headset called MindWave that the company
> says measures brainwave signals and transmits them via Bluetooth to a
> mobile
> device. The $99 device, according to the company, detects the attention
> level of students as they learn mathematics, science, or any other
> pattern-recognition disciplines. Affectiva is developing a biosensor
> bracelet called Q Sensor to measure electrodermal activity, which changes
> based on one's emotional state. Ideally, the sensor would detect when a
> student is anxious, bored or excited.
>
> Now, imagine the digital tutor of the future. If a child likes reading
> books, it teaches mathematics and science in a traditional way. If that
> doesn't work, the tutor tries videos. If that's too boring, it switches to
> games or puzzles. The digital tutor takes the student into holographic
> simulations to teach history, culture, and geography. It teaches art and
> music through collaboration. The tutor, via sensor data, knows what the
> child has learned and the time of day when he or she learns the most. It
> asks experts from all around the world the questions it can't answer. It
> tells the parents how the child is doing whenever they want to know. It
> becomes the child's trusted guide - a teacher tailor-made to fit them."
>
> This could probably be adapted to determine if a student is cheating on a
> test!
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

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Re: [FRIAM] MOOCy

[Curt McNamara]

http://gasstationwithoutpumps.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/mooc-roundup/

 Curt


On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> Loved the graph.  Fascinating to see the interconnections.
>
>-- Owen
>
>
> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 4:58 PM, glen e p ropella wrote:
>
>>
>> You MOOCy people might be interested in this, if you haven't already
>> seen it:
>>
>> Major Players in the MOOC Universe
>> http://chronicle.com/article/Major-Players-in-the-MOOC/138817/
>>
>> I found it via:
>>
>> https://plus.google.com/111474406259561102151/posts/97Y5hz8WtMu
>>
>> --
>> glen e. p. ropella  http://tempusdictum.com  971-255-2847
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

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Re: [FRIAM] [ SPAM ] Re: A New Society for the Study of Cultural Evolution

[Curt McNamara]

http://www.brainrules.net/wiring

  Curt

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 12:00 PM, glen ep ropella 
wrote:

> On 06/30/2015 09:14 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
>
>> " what it was to be Dine' " could possibly be reduced to their genes,
>> their language and the artifacts they carried or knew how to make... but I
>> find it easier/better if I include the "stories they told".
>>
>
> Yes, compression is real, not ideological.  The reason you feel it
> easier/better is because it helps you with the inverse map from phenomena
> to mechanism.  You have to act on the mechanism.  Compression helps you do
> that.  But it doesn't mean that the ideology is shared.  It means the
> compressed analog is shared.  The analog is a stand-in for the ephemeral
> thing you recognize/register.  Funny enough, because there are a bunch of
> animals almost identical to you standing about, they recognize/register
> that ephemeral thing in much the same way.  Their analogs are very similar
> to your analogs because your body is very similar to theirs.
>
> When/if we find communicative life elsewhere (here or other planets),
> we'll be able to test the hypothesis completely.  But we can do it in small
> bits right here and now.  Do amputees "understand" the world in the same
> way non-amputees "understand" the world?  Did Helen Keller think the same
> way sighted and hearing people think?
>
>
>  On the other hand, these distinctions might just be illusions, held by
>> the delusional.   But this argument begs the question of "who" or "what" is
>> delusional?   An individual sentient creature such as a human being?   A
>> group of sentients with a shared "ideology"?
>>
>
> The delusion is simply in assuming the analog _is_ its referent.  It would
> be like wondering why real airplanes aren't made of balsa wood.  This is
> why I tend to think tele-war (very remotely operated weapons like drones)
> will cause something like PTSD similar in devastation, but from the
> opposite circumstance, to the close-up witness of, participation in,
> violence.  That sort of removal from your context can be very difficult, I
> suspect.  You have no choice but to act as if the analog (controller) is
> the referent (weapon).  And it is the same ... yet it's not, because of the
> very complicated machinery between the controller and the controlled,
> machinery invisible to the operator.
>
> What's doing the assuming?  Your body, of course.  The better the analog,
> the more your body is tricked into acting upon the idea as if it's the
> referent.  Ideas are brain processes, analogs for real things to which they
> refer.  E.g. mental manipulation of an image of a 3D object engages many of
> the same circuits as actual manipulation of the 3D object.  The better the
> ideas, the easier it is to be tricked into thinking those analogs are
> ultimately accurate, so accurate that the idea is the real thing.  The
> smarter you are, the more likely you are to be tricked ... which means I'm
> completely safe.
>
> --
> glen ep ropella -- 971-255-2847
>
>
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] DOH!

[Curt McNamara]

http://blog.ted.com/7-talks-on-the-benefits-of-gaming/

   Curt

On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Parks, Raymond  wrote:

>  It is fascinating seeing business evolution in action.
>
>  A lot of the AAA game companies seem to be struggling with maintaining
> their size and advantages compared to smaller and/or more recent players.
> The big organizations have evolved from their nimble and inventive past to
> become lumbering and risk-averse.  They grew to take advantage of economies
> of scale only to find that they needed to avoid changing their formula for
> success or risk losing the scale of their economy.  There are parallels in
> other business domains, which now that I think about it, are all in the
> entertainment business - publishing, television, and movie-making.
>
>  Ray Parks
> Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
> V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
> NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
> SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)
>
>
>
>  On Jul 3, 2015, at 7:54 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>
>  Well the game world drama continues- hmm only time will tell what this
> meens:
>
> http://biz.yahoo.com/e/150702/atvi8-k.html
>
>  In case others don't know:  this has been a terrible year for Activision
> and Blizzard
>  (Aka WOW, Heroes of the Storm, Destininy and of course Call of Duty.)
>
>  Blizzard in 6 months has seen it's top Project Managers leave to Atari,
> and Bioware and 3 weeks ago Blizzards COO quit to go to a unknown
> competitor speculated to be Red Dawn (God of Wars)
>
>  Activision's COO is rumoured to be quitting for  Gearbox. (Borderlands
> series)
>
>  As I don't know how many on Wedtech are gamers or Org Psych Wonks.
>  I've been keeping tabs on this as I'm a gamer (so what) and into
> webdesign-
>  Plus i'm  curious what other peoples opinions are.
>
>  Might be worth waching as a live case of complexity (kind of), how does
> this play out can the various people involved get  the company back on
> track and if so how.
>
>  
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>
>
>
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: DOH!

[Curt McNamara]

http://m.gapminder.org/videos/200-years-that-changed-the-world/

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-decline-of-violence/

Curt
On Jul 6, 2015 6:02 PM, "Parks, Raymond"  wrote:

>Human behaviour is human behaviour and it has not changed in 50,000+
> years.  Humans act in their own self-interest at many levels - see Maslow's
> Hierarch of Needs.  The purpose of civilization is to allow humans to
> behave the way they will behave with as little destructive collateral
> effects as possible.  Sometimes, the structures of a society and government
> are enough to control the behaviour - sometimes more force is necessary.
> The key is to apply as little force as is necessary and to be perceived as
> applying the force fairly (not necessarily equally).
>
>Unfortunately, society and government are made up of humans and they
> will find ways to use what power is allotted to them by other humans in
> ways that are advantageous to themselves.  History shows that no matter how
> idealistic and utopian the original goal of a society or government it will
> be changed by the humans in charge to give themselves advantage.  The
> purpose of the US constitution is to pit these humans against each other so
> that their pursuit of self-interest will be in conflict with others in
> government.  The intent of the writers was that each group would prevent
> the others from gaining enough power to be destructive - thus the
> separation of powers into three branches of government.
>
>Humans also tend to form groups and place the survival of the group as
> more important than the survival of other groups.  When the group rises to
> the status of a nation-state or boundary-crossing movement (usually
> religious), the groups can get into conflict.  This is a fact of the human
> condition.  The best prepared group will survive these conflicts.  War
> games are one of the methods of preparing.  I understand your plea  and I
> sympathize - but history proves that we can't all just get along.
>
>  Ray Parks
>
>
>  On Jul 6, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
>
>  It’s such a shame that we still “can’t all just get along”, and
> instead keep developing more and more advanced ways of subjugating
> each other, killing and terrorizing. The liberal vs. conservative
> noise in the USA got me thinking a lot about this. When I moved to EC,
> the previous 8 years of BushCo had moved my politics pretty far left,
> to the point that I was quite happy with Correa’s victory. Now, after
> seeing the extent to which the past corruption has been merely
> legitimized (pushed upward), I’m not so sure where I stand. It seems
> to me that a lot of human history is some variation of the theme of
> "you have more than I have, that’s not fair, so I’m going to take some
> (all in some cases) from you.” There’s a lot to be said for that. If
> we didn’t have such strong strucutres in place (governments, social
> norms), we would each have just about what we could defend against our
> neighbors. The problem is that governments, especially in conjunction
> with philosophies and religions, can legitimize quite a range of
> behaviors, and our war games (real and otherwise) just enforce this.
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Parks, Raymond 
> wrote:
>
> You are venturing into the world of serious games.  Humans have always
>
> played games to sharpen intellect, gain skills, refine tactics, understand
>
> the ramifications of strategy, and entertain themselves.  I'm currently
>
> helping to author a paper about the security requirements of serious games,
>
> so this subject is fresh in my mind.
>
>
>  As hunter-gatherers, humans allowed their children to play hide and seek,
>
> use child-sized weapons, and hunt small game.  These were practice games
> for
>
> adulthood.
>
>
>  This concept of transforming necessary military skills and learning them
> by
>
> games, either as children or later as adults, has continued throughout
> human
>
> history.  In the 1800s, the Prussians added to the physical games with
>
> tabletop (or sandtable top) intellectual games that abstracted military
>
> units and allowed future officers to play without having to use real
> people,
>
> animals, and supplies.  That game was called Kriegspiel and has continued
> to
>
> evolve to this day.
>
>
>  Chess is sometimes considered the original Kriegspiel.  Most historians
>
> agree it is derived from Chaturanga, invented in the Gupta Empire somewhere
>
> between 280 and 550 CE.  Modern chess was formalized from the derivative of
>
> shatranj (Muslim version from the original) in about 900-1000 CE in
> southern
>
> Europe.  As a game, chess trains the player to think ahead, understand the
>
> consequences of their actions, and generally improves the mind.
>
>
>  In the age of Industrial Warfare new weapons, new logistics, new
>
> transportation, new communication methods, and the sheer size of armies
>
> required games to understand the bitter lessons learned in 

Re: [FRIAM] Games!

[Curt McNamara]

http://www.onlinecolleges.net/50-great-sites-for-serious-educational-games/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danieltack/2013/09/12/serious-games-and-the-future-of-education/

Curt
On Jul 7, 2015 12:38 PM, "Gillian Densmore"  wrote:

> @Cody As to video games, I submit they're somewhat useful or at least can
> be depending on what you consider useful of course. SimCity (for example),
> EverQuest(was is/was) believe it or not used in Leadership, and Project
> Management courses-basicly build a city and what do you do when something
> goes wrong.
> if I recall someone years ago from someone Orion Games talked at the
> Complex showing real world examples of fire-fighters, and pilots used
> Flight sims to help with training.
>
>
> World of Warcraft and other Massive Online Sims (or MMO/ MMORPG/ MMOAs)
> are often used as part of "humanistic design"  resliance studies,
> leadership studies as well because you are in a group. How do you have to
> take criticism. How do you handle it? Can you get a group together?  etc. I
> am unclear how useful those life skills are, but leadership skills and
> someway to be somewhat self reliant and managing tasks is likely at least
> somewhat useful in day-to-day life.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> Yup, one of the arguments in the list of reasons-gaming-is-good TED talks
>> was that they can be engaging as an educational tool.
>>
>> But you're clearly just trying to horrify me now.:-)
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 8:53 AM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH!
>>
>>
>> Heh, as if the argument weren't absurd enough already, there's this:
>>
>>Is Facebook the next frontier for online learning?
>>
>> http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2015/is-facebook-the-next-frontier-for-online-learning/
>>
>> I try to avoid facebook, despite my omnivorism.  But "when in Rome"...
>>
>> --
>> ⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella
>> I got my face in the furnace, I got my snake in a sleeve
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] Games!

[Curt McNamara]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_for_Change


On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Curt McNamara  wrote:

> http://www.onlinecolleges.net/50-great-sites-for-serious-educational-games/
>
>
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/danieltack/2013/09/12/serious-games-and-the-future-of-education/
>
> Curt
> On Jul 7, 2015 12:38 PM, "Gillian Densmore" 
> wrote:
>
>> @Cody As to video games, I submit they're somewhat useful or at least can
>> be depending on what you consider useful of course. SimCity (for example),
>> EverQuest(was is/was) believe it or not used in Leadership, and Project
>> Management courses-basicly build a city and what do you do when something
>> goes wrong.
>> if I recall someone years ago from someone Orion Games talked at the
>> Complex showing real world examples of fire-fighters, and pilots used
>> Flight sims to help with training.
>>
>>
>> World of Warcraft and other Massive Online Sims (or MMO/ MMORPG/ MMOAs)
>> are often used as part of "humanistic design"  resliance studies,
>> leadership studies as well because you are in a group. How do you have to
>> take criticism. How do you handle it? Can you get a group together?  etc. I
>> am unclear how useful those life skills are, but leadership skills and
>> someway to be somewhat self reliant and managing tasks is likely at least
>> somewhat useful in day-to-day life.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yup, one of the arguments in the list of reasons-gaming-is-good TED
>>> talks was that they can be engaging as an educational tool.
>>>
>>> But you're clearly just trying to horrify me now.:-)
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 8:53 AM
>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH!
>>>
>>>
>>> Heh, as if the argument weren't absurd enough already, there's this:
>>>
>>>Is Facebook the next frontier for online learning?
>>>
>>> http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2015/is-facebook-the-next-frontier-for-online-learning/
>>>
>>> I try to avoid facebook, despite my omnivorism.  But "when in Rome"...
>>>
>>> --
>>> ⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella
>>> I got my face in the furnace, I got my snake in a sleeve
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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>>
>

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Re: [FRIAM] Divergent Optimism

[Curt McNamara]

>From the latest Future Crunch newsletter:

In this week's *we're living in a simulation* news, two defendants are
going to traffic court somewhere in the US, where they will be defended be
artificial intelligence. Proceedings will be recorded via glasses, while a
chatbot built on GPT-3 will offer legal arguments in real-time, which the
defendants have pledged to repeat. Daily Beast


Curt

On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 5:14 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Glen -
> > That's why I mentioned it, and focused on the word "simulation". To
> > me, the parallel worlds conceptions are *covered* by David Lewis'
> > possible worlds.
> More homework... thanks!
> > When I said that in the pub the other night, some rando objected and
> > claimed his PhD thesis (at St. Martin's) was on Lewisian possible
> > worlds and modal logic. He was insistent that the many worlds stuff we
> > get from QT was fundamentally different. Pffft. I shouldn't have (but
> > did) taken his word for it there at the pub. I'm glad he stopped short
> > of mansplaining the two, though. Nothing's more annoying than rando
> > PhD candidates mansplaining their theses when you're just trying to
> > quaff a pint or two. Now that I've had time to think about it, I think
> > he was just posturing.
> It is all posturing in some sense, no?   nevertheless I haven't had that
> kind of pub conversation in a long time (we don't really have proper
> "pubs" here) but that is on me for not frequenting them much and when I
> do not engaging with randos (besides the ones inside my head).   Your
> description makes me think of the "Good Will Hunting" Cambridge Bar
> scene that ended in "how do you like THEM apples"?
> >
> > The important point is that simulation is not *really* about analogous
> > reasoning. Sure that's a convenient lesson you might teach a budding
> > simulationist in the early days. But it's really about, as Marcus put
> > it, realizability ... or, maybe some might like "effective procedures"
> > better. I prefer "numerical solution" or "equation-free model". To
> > each her own. But in that sense, reality seems to me to *be* brute
> > force solutions, space/niche-filling Twitch. Everyone runs around
> > talking about beauty, efficiency, blahblah.
>
> On one hand, I have a lot more unpacking (unraveling) to do on this
> paragraph before I can pretend to grok it...  I'm not asking
> specifically for you to do that for me ( won't complain if you do), but
> acknowledging that I am still a few universes over from yours when you
> do "simulationist" talk...  I've built, run, and specified simulations
> for many years and think I appreciate your general use of the term, but
> there is a fine structure to your lexicon that is well beyond mine in
> this domain.   Maybe nothing to be done besides continue the bramble
> here... though listening in at your pub with a pint or two (do they have
> a good not-sweet Gose?) in me might help.
>
> On the other hand, my spirit IS aligned with your dismissal of "beauty",
> "efficiency", "parsimony", whatever... for perhaps similar reasons.
>
> > But what I see are brute force solutions, trial and error ...
> > computational indulgence. And that maps well enough to many worlds.
> As I moved more and more into ensemble-steering and exploration I would
> say I developed a more useful metaphorical target for this kind of
> thinking.   I like "computational indulgence" but also offer perhaps
> "computational fecundity" as well?  I'm not sure about the implications
> of the passive vs active voice in those choices...
> >
> > And to go back to Pieter's techno-optimism, Utopias obtain. And
> > dystopias obtain. But the distributions are biased toward the latter.
> > You can only hope that you're participating in those on the rarer side
> > ... in the thin tail, I guess.
>
> I think Utopia/Dystopia is in the "eyes of the beholder" or more to the
> simulationists vernacular "fitness function".   Depending on one's
> heuristics for pruning the infinitude of possiblities (the "stuff of the
> simulation itself?) it seems that the bias can be moved (at the risk of
> missing "interesting" things by risk-aversion in one's cut-and-try
> techniques)?I also sometimes suspect that there is some kind of
> "conservation of topias" that requires them to be balanced in some way
> (one gender-ambiguous-person's utopia is another's dystopia)?
>
> Bramble,
>
>   - Steve
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Bad news about the climate

[Curt McNamara]

She is correct. The IPCC reports are also very conservative.

An informal poll of the IPCC representatives gave 2.5C as the likeliest
final temp rise. That is a huge amount, however probably not enough to
eliminate humanity.

We are turning the corner: carbon emissions have plateaued.

However passing through a tipping point seems still quite likely to me.

Pearce's With Speed and Violence gives a great overview of the science and
what the evidence of past climate transitions looks like.

https://books.google.com/books?id=rimrkFlTHn4C&pg=PT1&source=kp_read_button&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&gboemv=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

  Curt

On Sat, Jan 27, 2024, 3:00 PM Russ Abbott  wrote:

> I apologize for this relatively mass email. It was prompted by a video
>  by Sabine
> Hossenfelder,  Sabine is a theoretical physicist who has spent much of her
> recent life as a popular science writer and video maker. See her Wikipedia
> page .
>
> The video linked to above talks about climate models. The bottom line is
> that it appears that most of the current models have underestimated how
> quickly earth will warm. The consequences are frightening.
>
> -- Russ Abbott
> Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
> California State University, Los Angeles
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Re: [FRIAM] Self-Consciousness, experience and metaphysics

[Curt McNamara]

Somewhat out of sequence:
- some of what glen describes seems to be embodied cognition. A related
example is knowing how to play a musical instrument. This is part of the
4Es of cognition.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_embedded_cognition
- some of the discussion reminds me of Behavior: The Control of Perception
by Powers.
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/nPs63hpijnQs37jme/behavior-the-control-of-perception

BTW the less wrong website is very useful  ...

 Curt

Curt

On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 7:13 PM glen  wrote:

> Creative flow as optimized processing: Evidence from brain oscillations
> during jazz improvisations by expert and non-expert musicians
>
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028393224000393?via%3Dihub
>
> Contemplation is, like love, a fantasy ... a Rationalist conceit.
>
> On 7/25/24 16:51, David Eric Smith wrote:
> > I think the Contemplatives’s main POV is that someone in the zone is
> more conscious than someone in the normal state, which they regard as “a
> distraction” that obscures what they want the word “conscious” to point
> toward.
> >
> > But as an AI, I do not have contemplative thoughts and feelings, and can
> only reproduce patterns in what I hear Contemplatives say.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jul 26, 2024, at 8:31 AM, glen  wrote:
> >>
> >> Obscurum per obscurius. None of us will ever define "love" well enough
> to say with any certainty that any other person experiences it. Talking
> about whether cats or horses do or do not love humans (or food or anything)
> is just flat out nonsense. I'd argue we can't even talk sensibly about
> whether other humans experience love.
> >>
> >> However, we *could* talk about emotions. We can talk with some clarity
> about things like emotional states and how they present (dilated pupils,
> skin conductivity, flushing, etc.). And there are similar states in both
> cats and horses (I'd argue most mammals have such states). Rather than
> undefinable things like "love", we could talk about more definable things
> like anxiety (up to and including panic attacks), depression, fear, flow,
> anger, etc. I'd be amazed if a horse owner denied that horses experience
> anxiety, or denied that cats experience flow.
> >>
> >> And the extent to which these *driving* states (by "driving", I mean
> something like attractors where you wander into the state and it's either
> difficult or a matter of time in order to exit the state) do or don't
> relate to consciousness might be a fruitful conversation. E.g. one could
> argue that someone in flow (the zone) is less conscious than when out of
> flow. I would disagree and argue that flow is (a type of) consciousness.
> >>
> >> On 7/25/24 15:15, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> >>> I used to ride horses when I was a kid (10?) in New Mexico.  Chico was
> docile and obedient when we were out and about but when we were approaching
> "home" and he could see the barn where the food was he would start to
> gallop and would go through the entrance without regard to its being too
> low for a rider to fit.  If I hadn't jumped off I'd have been hurt. I never
> felt that he loved me.
> >>> ---
> >>> Frank C. Wimberly
> >>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> >>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >>> 505 670-9918
> >>> Santa Fe, NM
> >>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 4:00 PM Jochen Fromm  > wrote:
> >>> Personally I only have experience with cats which my parents had
> when I was young and the horse which my wife has now. I would say neither
> cats nor horses love their owners. If a cat sleeps during the day on the
> couch it is most likely not because it is so peaceful and cozy and loves to
> be around you, it is rather because it is a nocturnal predator tired from
> hunting birds and mice at night, which they occasionally proudly present to
> their human owners.
> >>> Horses love only two things: being near the herd and eating green
> grass, ideally both at the same time. And if they go in heat they want to
> mate, which happens every 21 days in female horses. They recognize their
> owners after a few months, and start to trust them, but if you come to
> their paddock and they come to you if is not because they love you but
> because they love the carrots and apples that you likely have for them.
> Similarly if you bring them back after the ride or the training they do not
> turn around or say goodbye. It feels like almost autistic behavior
> sometimes because they lack the social habits we usually have.
> >>>
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animal-emotions/201308/do-animals-typically-think-autistic-savants
> <
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animal-emotions/201308/do-animals-typically-think-autistic-savants
> >
> >>> Therefore I would say based on my limited experience with cats and
> horses that humans love their animals, yes, but animals do not love them
> back in the same way. To me it feels more like they tolerate us as friends
> for a limited time: friends who ar

Re: [FRIAM] for the optimists

[Curt McNamara]

The transistor came out of bell labs. Perhaps a third place, neither public
nor private? An argument can be made that  deForest used similar resources
for the invention of tubes.

It is generally agreed that a lab which can explore ideas independent of
applications will produce good stuff.

Few would disagree that the interwebs and miniaturization were the
originators of our current economy. And both arose from govt programs.

The point about all the useful stuff being invented before the 50's seems
correct.

There is a related topic: does design discover what Bucky called
generalized principles? And then science codifies.

The 'tech' we need nowadays seems to be social innovations. More and cooler
stuff won't save biodiversity.

 Curt

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021, 11:44 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:

> Your Book Review: Where's My Flying Car?
> https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-wheres-my-flying
>
> Is the following claim made by the author of the book (Hall - seemingly
> accepted by the author of the review) largely accurate? I ask because it's
> a common liberal talking point that publicly funded R&D has resulted in the
> majority of the tech we rely on in *modern* life. I'm terrible at history.
>
> > Hall blames public funding for science. Not just for nanotech, but for
> actually hurting progress in general. (I’ve never heard anyone before say
> government-funded science was bad for science!) “[The] great innovations
> that made the major quality-of-life improvements came largely before 1960:
> refrigerators, freezers, vacuum cleaners, gas and electric stoves, and
> washing machines; indoor plumbing, detergent, and deodorants; electric
> lights; cars, trucks, and buses; tractors and combines; fertilizer; air
> travel, containerized freight, the vacuum tube and the transistor; the
> telegraph, telephone, phonograph, movies, radio, and television—and they
> were all developed privately.” “A survey and analysis performed by the OECD
> in 2005 found, to their surprise, that while private R&D had a positive
> 0.26 correlation with economic growth, government funded R&D had a negative
> 0.37 correlation!” “Centralized funding of an intellectual elite makes it
> easier for cadres, cliques, and the politically skilled to gain control of
> a field, and they by their nature are resistant to new, outside,
> non-Ptolemaic ideas.” This is what happened to nanotech; there was a huge
> amount of buzz, culminating in $500 million dollars of funding under
> Clinton in 1990. This huge prize kicked off an academic civil war, and the
> fledgling field of nanotech lost hard to the more established field of
> material science. Material science rebranded as “nanotech”, trashed the
> reputation of actual nanotech (to make sure they won the competition for
> the grant money), and took all the funding for themselves. Nanotech never
> recovered.
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [FRIAM] Steaming services

[Curt McNamara]

The streaming services are basically ripping the artists off.
https://freeyourmusic.com/blog/how-much-does-spotify-pay-per-stream

As others have noted, live shows, merch and CDs are the only way artists
make money anymore.

So yeah the streaming is 'good' for consumers ...

Curt

On Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 2:42 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

>
> He *hates* Alexa, Amazon, and especially Amazon Music.
>
>
> What is there to hate?  They just play music you request.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 12:47 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>> On 8/22/21 8:28 AM, ⛧ glen wrote:
>>
>> It does both, perhaps counterintuitively. I'd argue it facilitates traffic 
>> between demes/cliques, but inhibits the content of demes/cliques.
>>
>>
>> I am a sucker for local AM radio when traveling... to put my finger on
>> the pulse of the locals, as it were.  What music they listen to, what their
>> news-of-choice leans toward, and what they are buying/selling/trading with
>> one another.  "If you can hear this station, what you hear *might* be
>> relevant to you *right now*"
>>
>> When internet radio stations started popping up (KTAO in Taos being an
>> early adopter), I found myself sampling these local stations around the
>> world... one in particular being in Australia (forget the call sign/town)
>> and having a strong familiarity to the myriad country AND western stations
>> up and down the rockies and out into the plains of the US West, but with an
>> Aussie accented DJ of course.Unfortunately it didn't replicate the
>> experience because I was patently NOT there... I could NOT plan a detour to
>> catch the local farmer's market or check out a local joint (where there
>> burgers would have pineapple and plum sauce instead of pickles and
>> ketchup)...   But what I was most struck by was that they were playing 95%
>> American Mainstream (C&W) music and referencing OUR icons of music
>> deeply/exclusively.   Only occasionally would I catch a "local" artist
>> (Australeonesia?)  I felt simultaneously expanded and constrained.
>>
>> When I moved to a small city/big town on the border (DouglasAZ/Agua
>> Prieta SA) our first neighbors were a Mexican American family who were one
>> of the local bands that played every venue, mostly rock but with their own
>> ranchera stylization often.   They would sit around evenings playing a wide
>> range of music, including the father, a sister and a younger brother (maybe
>> 5? too young to participate in the public events).   We moved away from
>> that house within 6 months but I continued to hear them the whole 8 years I
>> lived in that town, they probably played at both of my proms and any other
>> public musical event I might have attended.   What never crossed my mind
>> (until now) was that for the 4 years I was a Disc Jockey, I never heard
>> them play on air, nor was I motivated/inclined to seek them out.  Why not?
>> Linda Ronstadt (100 miles away) was hitting it big from similar roots, why
>> not them?   I guess because they weren't on the Billboard Top 100 charts
>> they sent us every month, telling us what was hot and what was not?  They
>> had no route to get known beyond the local bars and public venues.
>>
>> Both of my daughters partnered with aspiring musicians as they came of
>> age.  There have been several bands involved and those partners even
>> occasionally found time to make music together (though never recorded
>> together).   These bands never made it beyond local recognition...   "Billy
>> and the Belmonts", "Oktober People", "Weapons of Mass Destruction" all come
>> to mind.   And yet one of them was going on a self-promoted tour of the
>> west when we were in Berkeley, CA for a year and in fact, totally by
>> coincidence, had gotten booked at an Irish Pub ("Starry Plough") just a
>> short walk from our apartment (actually probably the closest watering hole
>> to our apartment).   It was just off Telegraph, right on the Oakland border
>> (as was our back fence)...  in what other world (pre/sans Internet) could a
>> band like that find a pub like that?   While Terry (daughter's now husband)
>> had the resources (as a Technical College instructor) to own a van, mix
>> their own music on Garage Band, cut their own CDs and print their own
>> T-shirts (aka Merch)...  They would have been sleeping in his van the whole
>> way (instead of being gifted couch-stays by their nascent mySpace fan base)
>> and would have had to make a LOT of phone calls and snail-mail inquiries to
>> secure the venues they were able to do online through the digital social
>> networks circa 2005.   Their music was out there for sampling on MySpace
>> and while all that (the bands as well as MySpace) are all defunct and
>> rotting away in digital history, it made it a lot further than I think it
>> could have in the days of vinyl or cassette tape.   I do still have CDs of
>> their music and it is ripped to my

Re: [FRIAM] Steaming services

[Curt McNamara]

Speaking of curation - nothing better than a radio show for me! I stream
WORT out of Madison and enjoy several of their hosts enough to regularly
buy CDs based on what they play.

You can explore many stations across the world here:
http://radio.garden

After listening you can find the station web site which probably maybe has
playlists ... and archives of past shows.

   Curt

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 11:29 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:

> Along the same lines as my comment on "gatekeeping" <
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gatekeeping> at vFriAM, I
> had an excellent conversation with a bartender on Saturday. When we got
> around to discussing the purposes of music, including a debate about
> moshing/dancing and how that physical activity, that kata, *interferes* [♯]
> with one's music processing, he suggested I try out Sunn O))) <
> https://sunn.southernlord.com/> [♭]. Along the same lines as Dave's
> rendering of mysticism, the rise of predictive processing, fixed state
> disorders, and audial illusions in understanding cognition, our
> expectations are the overwhelming drivers for how we listen to music.
>
> In line with Jon, I feel anything that inhibits my access to
> interestingness as claustrophobic, including any pressure to "dumb down" or
> pander to those outside whatever clique I'm currently in. (E.g. I saw a
> metal critic poke fun at my favorite doom with "Are they trying to go as
> slow as possible?" -- If you don't grok doom ... don't listen to doom, you
> moron. Go back to your speed-growl and leave us alone.)
>
> In line with Marcus, however, connection to the artist is obviously
> important to some subset of musical purpose. This bartender has written for
> 2 bands and considers himself a full member of 2 others. In promoting his
> music to me, he begged off telling me about his earlier work (he's a kid,
> actually ... like 25 years old pt), he said it was im-/pre-mature and
> not very good. But, in my mind, the arc of the artist(s) is way more
> important than the finished product, much the same way the compositional
> arc of a single tune is more important than any one part or voice.
>
> On-demand streaming services debilitate both those fulcrums. On the other
> hand, curation can go a long way to both expanding and homogenizing the
> paths through the graph. When curation starts sounding/feeling like
> promotion and marketing, I inevitably lose interest. But when the curator
> authentically digs what they're curating (even if it's only to identify why
> some thing is so aweful), I stay hooked.
>
>
> [♯] By which I mean both reinforcing and inhibiting, transmission to and
> from, between the source and the receiver. Maybe "mediates" is a better
> word ... but I hate the way "media" is used these days.
>
> [♭] I'm a big fan of interactive/live noise, not so much pre-recorded
> noise.
>
> On 8/22/21 11:46 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> > On 8/22/21 8:28 AM, ⛧ glen wrote:
> >> It does both, perhaps counterintuitively. I'd argue it facilitates
> traffic between demes/cliques, but inhibits the content of demes/cliques.
> >
> > I am a sucker for local AM radio when traveling... to put my finger on
> the pulse of the locals, as it were.  What music they listen to, what their
> news-of-choice leans toward, and what they are buying/selling/trading with
> one another.  "If you can hear this station, what you hear *might* be
> relevant to you *right now*"
> >
> > When internet radio stations started popping up (KTAO in Taos being an
> early adopter), I found myself sampling these local stations around the
> world... one in particular being in Australia (forget the call sign/town)
> and having a strong familiarity to the myriad country AND western stations
> up and down the rockies and out into the plains of the US West, but with an
> Aussie accented DJ of course.Unfortunately it didn't replicate the
> experience because I was patently NOT there... I could NOT plan a detour to
> catch the local farmer's market or check out a local joint (where there
> burgers would have pineapple and plum sauce instead of pickles and
> ketchup)...   But what I was most struck by was that they were playing 95%
> American Mainstream (C&W) music and referencing OUR icons of music
> deeply/exclusively.   Only occasionally would I catch a "local" artist
> (Australeonesia?)  I felt simultaneously expanded and constrained.
> >
> > When I moved to a small city/big town on the border (DouglasAZ/Agua
> Prieta SA) our first neighbors were a Mexican American family who were one
> of the local bands that played every venue, mostly rock but with their own
> ranchera stylization often.   They would sit around evenings playing a wide
> range of music, including the father, a sister and a younger brother (maybe
> 5? too young to participate in the public events).   We moved away from
> that house within 6 months but I continued to hear them the whole 8 years I
> lived in that town, they probably played at bot

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Curt McNamara]

A sciencey view of emotions and where they are located in the body:
https://www.pnas.org/content/111/2/646

Search emotions map for visuals that show a ton of different emotions.

  Curt

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 11:54 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:

> I suppose my problem is that I *do* think we can find "the sadness" inside
> the brain ... well, not inside the brain, exactly, but inside the *body*
> ... well, not *inside* the body but peri-body, localized *at* the body, but
> extending out into the body's context a bit.
>
> Just like with one's thumb, sadness comprises a dynamic mesh of
> interlinked feedback loops. And that dynamic mesh of feedback is *part* of
> a larger mesh of such loops. (Re: "putting it in a robot" - cf types of
> attention: soft, hard, self, etc.) Some of those loops *look at* the
> sadness cluster, register that cluster as "other" in some sense ... just
> like how I can imagine chopping off my thumb and tossing that object into
> the woods.
>
> Because I do this all the time, it would blow my mind if others did not
> also do it. I particularly do it with fear. Wake up startled. Think maybe
> there's someone in the house. Grab the bat. As I'm walking up the stairs, I
> *reflect* on my registered, now objectified fear. And, in doing so, wiggle
> my way out of the grip of that fear and think more tactically about how to
> behave if there's a human-shaped shadow in the living room.
>
> I do the same thing with pain, particularly my chronic back pain, but also
> with things like stubbed toes. It's fscking hilarious how much that hurts
> ... ridiculously over-emphasized pain for what has happened. To not step
> outside the pain and laugh out loud would be weird. It's just way too funny
> how much that hurts.
>
> I welcome a lesson in how misguided I am, here.
>
> On 8/24/21 8:36 AM, Eric Charles wrote:
> > So This is JUST a question of whether we are having a casual
> conversation or a technical one, right? Certainly, in a casual,
> English-language conversation talk of "having" emotions is well understood,
> and just fine, for example "Nick is /having /a fit, just let him be." (I
> can't speak for other languages, but I assume there are many others where
> that would be true.)
> >
> > If we were, for some reason, having a technical conversation about how
> the/Science of //Psychology/, should use technical language, then we /might
> /also come to all agree that isn't the best way to talk about it.
> >
> > In any case, the risk with "have" is that it reifies whatever we are
> talking about. To talk about someone /having /sadness, leads naturally ---
> linguistically naturally --- in English --- to thinking that sadness is /a
> thing/ that I could find if I looked hard enough. It is why people used to
> think (and many, many, still do) that if we just looked hard enough at
> someone's brain, we would find /the sadness/ inside there, somewhere. That
> is why it is dangerous in a technical conversation regarding psychology,
> because that implication is wrong-headed in a way that repeatedly leads
> large swaths of the field down deep rabbit holes that they can't seem to
> get out of.
> >
> > On the one hand, I /have /a large ice mocha waiting for me in the
> fridge. On the other hand, this past summer I /had /a two-week long trip to
> California. One is a straightforward object, the other was an extended
> activity I engaged in. When the robot-designers assert that their robot
> "has" emotions, which do they mean? Honestly, I think they don't mean
> either one, it is a marketing tool, and not part of a conversation at all.
> As such, it does't really fit into the dichotomy above, and is trying to
> play one off of the other. They are using the terms "emotions and
> instincts" to mean something even less than whatever Tesla means when they
> say they have an autodrive that for sure still isn't good enough to
> autodrive.
> >
> > What the robot-makers mean is simply to indicate that the robot will be
> a bit more responsive to certain things that other models on the market,
> and /hopefully /that's what most consumers understand it to mean. But not
> all will... at least some of the people being exposed to the marketing will
> take it to mean that emotion has been successfully put somewhere inside the
> robot. (The latter is a straightforward empirical claim, and if you think
> I'm wrong about that, you have way too much faith in how savvy 100% of
> people are.) As such, the marketing should be annoying to anti-dualist
> psychologists, who see it buttressing /at least some/ people's tendency to
> jump down that rabbit hole mentioned above.
> > 
>
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Curt McNamara]

Bucky Fuller on apprehension / comprehension of systems:
http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/figs/f0901.html

We ignore larger / slower frequencies. We also ignore smaller / faster
frequencies.
http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/p0600.html#509.01

   Curt

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:55 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:

> Ouch! Dude. No! 8^D You're committing the same sin Nick commits. To say we
> "are" our emotions ignores the composition, the algebra by which parts
> compose the whole.
>
> The point is the very high order conscious *attention* to lower order
> frequencies. Not all is one. There are many parts to organize. How are they
> organized?
>
> On 8/26/21 7:50 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> >
> >>  E.g. when Bob wakes up startled, he interprets the situation into
> "fear". But when Sally wakes up startled, she interprets the situation into
> "excitement" or some other /a priori/, socially limiting, filter category.
> > Thus my earlier suggestion that "we" "are" our emotions?   Bob *is* his
> > propensity to read the lower-level response of "startlement" (closer to
> > autonomic) to "fear" (closer to choice).   Sally also as "excitement".
>
>
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Curt McNamara]

Locating at least one kind of fear:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0006156

Billiard ball contact:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_mechanics

Bucky spends a lot of time talking about our flat earth / Newtonian view of
Universe, while Einstein clearly showed us how things actually worked.

Many hits on kinds of fear, Psych Today says there are only 5:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brainsnacks/201203/the-only-5-fears-we-all-share

My guess is that fear >> the subconscious takes precedence over the
conscious / rational. It has survival basis, so some of the types are
'hard-wired'.

Many of the strategies for dealing with fear are labeled grounding.
https://talkiatry.com/blog/grounding-techniques-anxiety-coping-strategies/

 Curt

Curt

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 11:39 AM  wrote:

> I hope EricC picks this up.  He has been too absent lately.  Damn him for
> having gotten an interesting job.
>
>
>
> I guess I think in levels of organization, and my rants are always of the
> form, Grant Each Level Its Due and Do Not Confuse Them.  So you can
> discuss the amygdala all you want, but you still have not described, or
> identified, fear.
>
>
>
> So, you ask, how would a person of my persuasion go about explaining the
> relation between the molecules in my skin  and the excitation of those
> elections that produce on my screen, what I am writing.  Never mind the
> socalled hard problem (the problem of the soul). Let’s figure out a way to
> talk about that.
>
>
>
> Or for that matter, let’s make it even simpler:  Let’s talk about the
> relation between the molecules of a cue  ball that result in the motion of
> the eightball into a pocket and the loss of the game.   Let’s even do some
> spherical cowing here and assume that one, and only one molecule of the cue
> ball touches one and only one molecule of the eightball.  Is this a good
> model?   Have I understood the question right?
>
>
>
> I don’t think Nick should say “I am my fear.”  I think he should say “I am
> the sum total of all the things that I do and that fear is one of the
> things I do”.   Or, perhaps, to put it in terms of experience-monism, “I am
> all that I experience and when I experience my flight behavior in relation
> to my experience of my circumstances I experience my fear.”
>
>
>
>
>
> I have to get back to that message from EricS that I bungled my response
> to.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 11:24 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions
>
>
>
> Very nice! What I keep *wanting* to hear from Nick or EricC is a mechanism
> by which very tiny, very fast processes inside the body interact with very
> tiny, very fast processes outside the body. I.e. a demonstration (or simply
> rhetoric) of membrane openness (permeability, lack of closure). I.e. not
> all tiny/fast processes are bundled up into larger/slower processes at the
> interface between inside and outside.
>
>
>
> If they made that (inherently compositional) argument, then ... then then
> then, we could talk about a taxonomy of process from tiny/fast to
> huge/slow, across spatiotemporal and functional scales. And with such a
> taxonomy, we could talk about which ones facilitate the Markovian processes
> EricS mentioned, required to successfully challenge "the hard problem" from
> a behaviorist perspective.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8/26/21 8:05 AM, Curt McNamara wrote:
>
> > Bucky Fuller on apprehension / comprehension of systems:
>
> > http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/figs/f0901.html
>
> > <http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/figs/f0901.html>
>
> >
>
> > We ignore larger / slower frequencies. We also ignore smaller / faster
> frequencies.
>
> > http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/p0600.html#509.01
>
> > <http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s05/p0600.html#509.01>
>
> >
>
> >Curt
>
> >
>
> > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:55 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Ouch! Dude. No! 8^D You're committing the same sin Nick commits. To
> say we "are" our emotions ignores the composition, the algebra by which
> parts compose the whole.
>
> >
>
> > The point is the very high order conscious *attention* to lower
> order frequencies. Not all is one. There are many parts to or

Re: [FRIAM] A pretty cellular automata video

[Curt McNamara]

In Siobhan Roberts' biography of Conway she summarizes how it took months
(or perhaps years) to work through different sets of rules for the game of
life. The goal was to find ones that produced Interesting behavior.

This was done by his group, and by hand as computers weren't readily
available. Years later enough simulations had been run to prove it was a
universal Turing machine.

The game eventually started to bother him as his other work was much more
significant and got less attention.

Her book on Coxeter is also excellent.

   Curt

https://siobhanroberts.com/




On Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:33 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Jon -
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2uhhAXd7PI&ab_channel=ElliotWaite
>
>
> I never cease to be surprised and fascinated watching simple rules
> generate complex structure and dynamics.
>
> I had a lot of complex reactions to this but I won't waste anyone's
> bandwidth with my reflective rambling...
>
> Thanks for sharing...
>
> - Steve
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] lurking

[Curt McNamara]

People game because the 'game world' is consistent. If you do the correct
things, you always get the reward.

In contrast, the real world isn't fair. You can be the hardest worker yet
someone else gets the promotion.

Paraphrase of 'Reality Is Broken' by McGonigal.
https://books.google.com/books/about/Reality_Is_Broken.html?id=yiOtN_kDJZgC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&gboemv=1

 Curt

On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, 10:10 AM Prof David West  wrote:

> Before the thread leaves games for consciousness ...
>
> A couple of years back, World of Warcraft passed the 1 billion player hour
> mark. That is just one game. A survey somewhere  around that time claimed
> that self identified gamers averaged 30+ hours a week engaged in games. The
> low end of the curve was 20 hours a week (if you did not play that much, I
> guess you did not consider yourself a gamer) and the high end was well over
> 100 hours a week.
>
> The question of the day (then): why do people spend enjoy games so much
> more than real life and especially work life? There was a 'movement', under
> the umbrella label of "gamification" to apply ideas/principles supposedly
> gleamed from analysis of why games were so compelling and apply those ideas
> to education and work in specific, but also life in general.
>
> I have half-dozen or so books on this subject and will look them up if
> anyone is interested.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, at 8:36 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > My point was that the cost to probe some memory address is low.   And
> > all there is, is I/O and memory.
> >
> >  It does become difficult to track thousands of addresses at once:
> > Think of a debugger that has millions of watchpoints.   However, one
> > could have diagnostics compiled in to the code to check invariants from
> > time to time.   I don't know why Nick says there is no privilege.
> > There can be complete privilege.   Extracting meaning from that access
> > is rarely easy, of course.  Just as debugging any given problem can be
> > hard.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> > Sent: Monday, November 1, 2021 3:20 PM
> > To: friam@redfish.com
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] lurking
> >
> > Literal self-awareness is possible. The flaw in your argument is that
> > "self" is ambiguous in the way you're using it. It's not ambiguous in
> > the way me or Marcus intend it. You can see this nicely if you elide
> > "know" from your argument.  We know nothing. The machine knows nothing.
> > Just don't use the word "know" or the concept it references.  There
> > need not be a model involved, either, only sensors and things to be
> > sensed.
> >
> > Self-sensing means there is a feedback loop between the sensor and the
> > thing it senses. So, the sensor measures the sensed and the sensed
> > measures the sensor. That is self-awareness. There's no need for any of
> > the psychological hooha you often object to. There's no need for
> > privileged information *except* that there has to be a loop. If
> > anything is privileged, it's the causal loop.
> >
> > The real trick is composing multiple self-self loops into something
> > resembling what we call a conscious agent. We can get to the uncanny
> > valley with regular old self-sensing control theory and robotics.
> > Getting beyond the valley is difficult: https://youtu.be/D8_VmWWRJgE A
> > similar demonstration is here: https://youtu.be/7ncDPoa_n-8
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/1/21 2:08 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> In fact, strictly speaking, I think literal self-awareness is
> impossible.  Because, whatever a machine knows about itself, it is a MODEL
> of itself based on well situated sensors of its own activities, just like
> you are and I am.  There is no privileged access, just bettah or wussah
> access.
> >
> > --
> > "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
> > ☤>$ uǝlƃ
> >
> >
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