Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[Marcus Daniels]

Well, I assume that if my connectome could be scanned with sufficient fidelity, 
and stored in a computer, that it would be possible, someday, to both query my 
memories, but also to measure emotional responses, in silico.  Probably even 
start and stop consciousness.The trick would be figuring out the 
interfaces, but obvious places to start would be the visual cortex, auditory 
centers, and various incoming nerves.It could sort of be approaches as a 
machine learning problem, like is beginning to be done with replacement limbs.  

Sure there are aspects of my physical self that are slightly unique to me, but 
I would expect they are modularized.   The experience of running, typing, and 
so on.   But those things aren't me.   If anything, it would seem to be 
thrilling to experience other real or simulated nervous systems.  

Yes, I know, what huge waste of disk space!
Btw, what rights do the dead have to their own memories?   A whole new field of 
IP law!

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:22 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and 
Epigenetics)

Glen/Nick -
>> Having said that, am I allowed to say, "Crap!  I wish you didn't have 
>> cancer!'
> Of course.  Thanks.  But just to be argumentative,
...
> I am cancer.  It's probably not true of all cancers, though.
I recently had a long conversation with a Muslim friend from Australia who 
donated her bone marrow to her sister to replace hers after it was deliberately 
destroyed by chemo/rad to stop *her* cancer.

This was against Islamic law but she and her family felt like they had still 
done the right thing.  She is now hyper aware that her sister is a 
Chimera, though she didn't have the term for it.   She believes that her 
sister underwent a radical personality change after the 
transplant/recovery and wants to attribute it to the "transplant".   At 
first I wanted to dismiss this but on a little reflection and study,  I am more 
sympathetic to her position.

The  more I read about hematopoietic cell transplant and lateral genetic 
transference, the curiouser it all gets!  I feel like we need the molecular 
biology equivalent of Oliver Sacks (RIP) in the house to bring a more popular 
understanding to the table of this fascinating field!

I was fascinated as a child to learn about tree grafting in nut and citrus 
orchards, and later organ transplants in humans, but this goes a 
step further since it is roughly "systemic".   This also lead me to 
reflect on birth-chimeras where multiple zygotes fuse early on to yield a 
single fetus and ultimately full human organism but with a mixture of cells 
with filial genomics.

I have friends who are "mirror" twins who each have a third nipple on opposite 
sides of their body (slightly lower than the conventional location).  They 
believed this to suggest that they had begun as triplets and that there was 
such a fusion during the early embryological 
process.   I didn't recognize any other chimeric properties (sometimes 
evidenced by piebald skin or hair markings).

This is NOT your father's Genetics!   My father studied biology in the 
late 1940s, my own molecular biology experience is roughly circa 1984, and my 
daughter's PhD in molecular biology is only about 7 years old now, yet *even 
her* "book larnin' " in the general field, and in particular epigenetics is 
getting stale fast!

- Steve


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[FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[Steve Smith]

Glen/Nick -

Having said that, am I allowed to say, "Crap!  I wish you didn't have cancer!'

Of course.  Thanks.  But just to be argumentative,

...

I am cancer.  It's probably not true of all cancers, though.
I recently had a long conversation with a Muslim friend from Australia 
who donated her bone marrow to her sister to replace hers after it was 
deliberately destroyed by chemo/rad to stop *her* cancer.


This was against Islamic law but she and her family felt like they had 
still done the right thing.  She is now hyper aware that her sister is a 
Chimera, though she didn't have the term for it.   She believes that her 
sister underwent a radical personality change after the 
transplant/recovery and wants to attribute it to the "transplant".   At 
first I wanted to dismiss this but on a little reflection and study,  I 
am more sympathetic to her position.


The  more I read about hematopoietic cell transplant and lateral genetic 
transference, the curiouser it all gets!  I feel like we need the 
molecular biology equivalent of Oliver Sacks (RIP) in the house to bring 
a more popular understanding to the table of this fascinating field!


I was fascinated as a child to learn about tree grafting in nut and 
citrus orchards, and later organ transplants in humans, but this goes a 
step further since it is roughly "systemic".   This also lead me to 
reflect on birth-chimeras where multiple zygotes fuse early on to yield 
a single fetus and ultimately full human organism but with a mixture of 
cells with filial genomics.


I have friends who are "mirror" twins who each have a third nipple on 
opposite sides of their body (slightly lower than the conventional 
location).  They believed this to suggest that they had begun as 
triplets and that there was such a fusion during the early embryological 
process.   I didn't recognize any other chimeric properties (sometimes 
evidenced by piebald skin or hair markings).


This is NOT your father's Genetics!   My father studied biology in the 
late 1940s, my own molecular biology experience is roughly circa 1984, 
and my daughter's PhD in molecular biology is only about 7 years old 
now, yet *even her* "book larnin' " in the general field, and in 
particular epigenetics is getting stale fast!


- Steve


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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[glen]

On 09/24/2015 08:22 AM, Steve Smith wrote:

She believes that her sister underwent a radical personality change after the 
transplant/recovery and wants to attribute it to the "transplant".   At first I 
wanted to dismiss this but on a little reflection and study,  I am more sympathetic to 
her position.

The  more I read about hematopoietic cell transplant and lateral genetic 
transference, the curiouser it all gets!


I have 3 words for you: Marlin Brandt Pohlman:

http://topics.oregonlive.com/tag/marlin%20pohlman/index.html
https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p=pts=en=inassignee:%22Pohlman+Marlin+B%22_rd=ssl

When they told me I had lymphoma, I immediately worried that I could become a 
time-machine-patent-filing-rapist.

--
⇔ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[Marcus Daniels]

Or how about (the perception of) clear thinking motivated by a recognition of 
mortality.   And an ugly consequence of YOLO.

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 11:05 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and 
Epigenetics)

On 09/24/2015 09:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Let's assume the bad behavior has nothing to do with the "increased mental 
> acuity".  What is the cancer drug he attributes to his discovery of time 
> travel?   The pharmaceutical company would no doubt like to know too.

I don't remember the details.  But it was speculated (by one of the local 
dorkbot guys) to be a result of stem cell therapy.  It's typical to take a 
traditional therapeutic route the 1st and even 2nd round.  So, my guess would 
be the stem cell therapy was the 3rd round of treatment.  We build resistance 
against drug and chemo classes during each round, which is why they usually use 
different treatment each round.  And I'm ignorant about Hodgkins, which is 
different from mine.  But I don't know the timing, whether he filed the patent 
prior to the 3rd round or what.

I kinda stopped watching Portlandia.  But it's _very_ Portlandia to have a 
bunch of lab equipment where you try to do things like "make absinthe" ... 
whether or not most of these Portlanders are actually cooking up date-rape 
drugs or are simply curious DIY makers is a question the TV show should pursue 
... falls right in line with the Shanghai Tunnel tradition here ... maybe 
that's not hipster-funny enough, though.

--
⇔ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[glen]

On 09/24/2015 10:18 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Or how about (the perception of) clear thinking motivated by a recognition of 
mortality.   And an ugly consequence of YOLO.


Ha!  Nice!  I love The Dark Side of XYZ expositions.  I attended a great talk 
by this guy:  http://coreypein.net/  on the Dark Side of the Sharing Economy.  
He walked through several of the systemic effects of things like Uber and 
AirBnB, how they undermine quality of life and appeal to the myopia of both the 
employees and customers, alike.  Reminds me of those anti-inspirational posters 
you turned me on to back at the Agua Fria space.

--
⇔ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[Nick Thompson]

Hi everybody.  So much here to talk about, but if I stop to talk about it, I 
won't make the plane on Saturday.  

Hope to pick this up quickly on The Other Side.   By the way, all higher 
organisms are chimeras, and we are probably all slaves to the bacteria in our 
gut.  

N 

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 12:13 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and 
Epigenetics)

On 09/24/2015 08:22 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> She believes that her sister underwent a radical personality change after the 
> transplant/recovery and wants to attribute it to the "transplant".   At first 
> I wanted to dismiss this but on a little reflection and study,  I am more 
> sympathetic to her position.
>
> The  more I read about hematopoietic cell transplant and lateral genetic 
> transference, the curiouser it all gets!

I have 3 words for you: Marlin Brandt Pohlman:

http://topics.oregonlive.com/tag/marlin%20pohlman/index.html
https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p=pts=en=inassignee:%22Pohlman+Marlin+B%22_rd=ssl

When they told me I had lymphoma, I immediately worried that I could become a 
time-machine-patent-filing-rapist.

--
⇔ glen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe 
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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[Steve Smith]

Glen -

On 09/24/2015 08:22 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
She believes that her sister underwent a radical personality change 
after the transplant/recovery and wants to attribute it to the 
"transplant".   At first I wanted to dismiss this but on a little 
reflection and study,  I am more sympathetic to her position.


The  more I read about hematopoietic cell transplant and lateral 
genetic transference, the curiouser it all gets!


I have 3 words for you: Marlin Brandt Pohlman:

http://topics.oregonlive.com/tag/marlin%20pohlman/index.html
https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p=pts=en=inassignee:%22Pohlman+Marlin+B%22_rd=ssl 



When they told me I had lymphoma, I immediately worried that I could 
become a time-machine-patent-filing-rapist.




I don't get it?  Are you saying you had STEM cell/bone marrow transplant 
from this guy and were afraid his genome might be at fault in his bad 
habits (patenting fusion/gravity/time mechanisms, buying illegal drugs 
with bitcoin, and date-drug-raping women)?


- Steve





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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[glen]

On 09/24/2015 03:07 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

I don't get it?  Are you saying you had STEM cell/bone marrow transplant from 
this guy and were afraid his genome might be at fault in his bad habits 
(patenting fusion/gravity/time mechanisms, buying illegal drugs with bitcoin, 
and date-drug-raping women)?


No.  I didn't have stem cell therapy at all.  The 1st couple of rounds are 
usually traditional chemo+drug.  My drug encourages cell death by attaching to 
the CD20 receptor.  No, I was just worried that destroying and regrowing 
yourself changes you in fundamental and unpredictable ways.  Identity is 
already a delusion.  And ontogenesis under heavy stress is, I think, analogous 
to evolution under heavy selection pressure.  You can get some pretty radical 
changes out of it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Pohlman had been a relatively normal guy before his 
3 rounds of therapy.  Brings to my mind the Stanford Prison Experiment.

--
⇔ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[Steve Smith]

Glen -
I wouldn't be surprised if Pohlman had been a relatively normal guy 
before his 3 rounds of therapy. 
Since I didn't know you BC (before cancer), I don't have any reference, 
maybe Guerin or Marcus can weigh in as to whether you *used to be* "a 
pretty normal guy".


After meeting you in person, I *wouldn't* be that surprised if you had 
filed a patent or two around time machines...   but after meeting Renee, 
I'm pretty sure the DIY date-rape thing would turn out badly for you!




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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[Marcus Daniels]

"I don't get it?  Are you saying you had STEM cell/bone marrow transplant from 
this guy and were afraid his genome might be at fault in his bad habits"

Hypothetically, certain protein mixes could signal to somatic cells to unspool 
their nucleosome (to some extent) back to the form more like a stem cell.   If 
that happened, the new more versatile form might also carry new errors that 
come with age.   From the remodeled stem cells, new cells result, but one from 
a blueprint with some coffee spilled on it.   Could be interesting.

Marcus 


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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[Marcus Daniels]

Let's assume the bad behavior has nothing to do with the "increased mental 
acuity".  What is the cancer drug he attributes to his discovery of time 
travel?   The pharmaceutical company would no doubt like to know too.

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 10:13 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and 
Epigenetics)

On 09/24/2015 08:22 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> She believes that her sister underwent a radical personality change after the 
> transplant/recovery and wants to attribute it to the "transplant".   At first 
> I wanted to dismiss this but on a little reflection and study,  I am more 
> sympathetic to her position.
>
> The  more I read about hematopoietic cell transplant and lateral genetic 
> transference, the curiouser it all gets!

I have 3 words for you: Marlin Brandt Pohlman:

http://topics.oregonlive.com/tag/marlin%20pohlman/index.html
https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p=pts=en=inassignee:%22Pohlman+Marlin+B%22_rd=ssl

When they told me I had lymphoma, I immediately worried that I could become a 
time-machine-patent-filing-rapist.

--
⇔ glen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe 
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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[glen]

On 09/24/2015 09:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Let's assume the bad behavior has nothing to do with the "increased mental 
acuity".  What is the cancer drug he attributes to his discovery of time travel?   
The pharmaceutical company would no doubt like to know too.


I don't remember the details.  But it was speculated (by one of the local 
dorkbot guys) to be a result of stem cell therapy.  It's typical to take a 
traditional therapeutic route the 1st and even 2nd round.  So, my guess would 
be the stem cell therapy was the 3rd round of treatment.  We build resistance 
against drug and chemo classes during each round, which is why they usually use 
different treatment each round.  And I'm ignorant about Hodgkins, which is 
different from mine.  But I don't know the timing, whether he filed the patent 
prior to the 3rd round or what.

I kinda stopped watching Portlandia.  But it's _very_ Portlandia to have a bunch of lab 
equipment where you try to do things like "make absinthe" ... whether or not 
most of these Portlanders are actually cooking up date-rape drugs or are simply curious 
DIY makers is a question the TV show should pursue ... falls right in line with the 
Shanghai Tunnel tradition here ... maybe that's not hipster-funny enough, though.

--
⇔ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] I am Cancer, hear me roar! (with segue into Chimerism and Epigenetics)

[glen]

On 09/24/2015 03:35 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Since I didn't know you BC (before cancer),


Of course, you don't mean BC, you mean BT (before therapy).  It's the therapy 
that does it, not the cancer.


After meeting you in person, I *wouldn't* be that surprised if you had filed a 
patent or two around time machines...


No way, man!  Patents are for cogs in the machine.  The patent is the contract. 
 You're Robert Johnson.  The patent office is the Devil.

--
⇔ glen


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