Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
; repeat his quote and give the reference again. >>> "Intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most >>> things we want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be >>> radically different, and can be amazingly better." >>> Taken from >>> https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms >>> >>> <https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms> >>> : >>> >>> In conclusion, yes I agree with Glen that there are sadly hidden elements >>> to all the techno-optimism. but this does not dampen my enthusiasm for the >>> future triggered by abundant intelligence and energy. >>> >>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 21:08, glen >> <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Sadly, there are some hidden elements to all that techno-optimism. E.g. >>> >>> https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m >>> <https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m> >>> >>> On 1/18/23 00:40, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: >>> > I totally agree that realizable behavior is what matters. >>> > >>> > The elephant in the room is whether AI (and robotics of course) will >>> (not to replace but to) be able to do better than humans in all respects, >>> including come up with creative solutions to not only the world's most >>> pressing problems but also small creative things like writing poems, and >>> then to do the mental and physical tasks required to provide goods and >>> services to all in the world, >>> > >>> > Sam Altman said there are two things that will shape our future; >>> intelligence and energy. If we have real abundant intelligence and energy, >>> the world will be very different indeed. >>> > >>> > To quote Sam Altmen at >>> https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms >>> >>> <https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms> >>> >>> <https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms >>> >>> <https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms>> >>> : >>> > >>> > "intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards >>> most things we want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents >>> will be radically different, and can be amazingly better." >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels >> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com >>> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is >>> what matters. Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there >>> will be leakage between components. A large network of transistors or >>> neurons are sufficiently similar for my purposes. The unrolling would be >>> inside a skull, so somewhat isolated from interference. >>> > >>> > -Original Message- >>> > From: Friam >> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com >>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> On Behalf Of glen >>> > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM >>> > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> >>> <mailto:friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> >>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW >>> > >>> > I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies >>> no interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the >>> ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying about from an unrolled >>> recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. That's not to say a >>> trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But unrolled >>> seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance. >>> > >>> > On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> > > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time >>> ago on serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an >>> unrolling of recursion. >>> > > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . 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Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
lements to all that techno-optimism. E.g. https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m <https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m> On 1/18/23 00:40, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: > I totally agree that realizable behavior is what matters. > > The elephant in the room is whether AI (and robotics of course) will (not to replace but to) be able to do better than humans in all respects, including come up with creative solutions to not only the world's most pressing problems but also small creative things like writing poems, and then to do the mental and physical tasks required to provide goods and services to all in the world, > > Sam Altman said there are two things that will shape our future; intelligence and energy. If we have real abundant intelligence and energy, the world will be very different indeed. > > To quote Sam Altmen at https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms <https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms> <https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms <https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms>> : > > "intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most things we want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be radically different, and can be amazingly better." > > > > On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>> wrote: > > Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is what matters. Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will be leakage between components. A large network of transistors or neurons are sufficiently similar for my purposes. The unrolling would be inside a skull, so somewhat isolated from interference. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> On Behalf Of glen > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW > > I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying about from an unrolled recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. That's not to say a trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But unrolled seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance. > > On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago on serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an unrolling of recursion. > -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
s.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms >> > >> > <https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms> >> > : >> > >> > "intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most >> > things we want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be >> > radically different, and can be amazingly better." >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels > > <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: >> > >> > Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is what >> > matters. Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will >> > be leakage between components. A large network of transistors or neurons >> > are sufficiently similar for my purposes. The unrolling would be inside >> > a skull, so somewhat isolated from interference. >> > >> > -Original Message- >> > From: Friam > > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of glen >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM >> > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> >> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW >> > >> > I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no >> > interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the >> > ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying about from an unrolled >> > recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. That's not to say a >> > trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But unrolled >> > seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance. >> > >> > On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> > > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago >> > on serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an >> > unrolling of recursion. >> > >> >> >> -- >> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
com> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>> wrote: > > Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is what matters. Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will be leakage between components. A large network of transistors or neurons are sufficiently similar for my purposes. The unrolling would be inside a skull, so somewhat isolated from interference. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>>> On Behalf Of glen > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW > > I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying about from an unrolled recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. That's not to say a trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But unrolled seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance. > > On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago on serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an unrolling of recursion. -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
*Sadly, there are some hidden elements to all that techno-optimism.* Yes, sadly the world is unequal and those at the bottom of the economic ladder just don't get a good deal. On the positive side, looking back at the history of mankind there is evidence that it is now better to live than ever in the past for the large majority of humankind. This is true even though it is the sad truth that it's very far from perfect; human suffering is a reality, Glen's comment is sad but true. The question of course is whether it will continue to go better? It's just impossible to know the future. One person can believe it'll go better in the future, another that it'll be worse, each with tons of good arguments. I for one, embrace the optimism of Sam Altman, just for completeness I repeat his quote and give the reference again. "Intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most things we want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be radically different, and can be amazingly better." Taken from https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms : In conclusion, yes I agree with Glen that there are sadly hidden elements to all the techno-optimism. but this does not dampen my enthusiasm for the future triggered by abundant intelligence and energy. On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 21:08, glen wrote: > Sadly, there are some hidden elements to all that techno-optimism. E.g. > > https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m > > On 1/18/23 00:40, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: > > I totally agree that realizable behavior is what matters. > > > > The elephant in the room is whether AI (and robotics of course) will > (not to replace but to) be able to do better than humans in all respects, > including come up with creative solutions to not only the world's most > pressing problems but also small creative things like writing poems, and > then to do the mental and physical tasks required to provide goods and > services to all in the world, > > > > Sam Altman said there are two things that will shape our future; > intelligence and energy. If we have real abundant intelligence and energy, > the world will be very different indeed. > > > > To quote Sam Altmen at > https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms > < > https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms> > : > > > > "intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most > things we want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be > radically different, and can be amazingly better." > > > > > > > > On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: > > > > Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is what > matters. Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will be > leakage between components. A large network of transistors or neurons are > sufficiently similar for my purposes. The unrolling would be inside a > skull, so somewhat isolated from interference. > > > > -Original Message----- > > From: Friam friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of glen > > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM > > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW > > > > I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no > interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the > ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying about from an unrolled > recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. That's not to say a > trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But unrolled > seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance. > > > > On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time > ago on serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an > unrolling of recursion. > > > > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redf
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
That might qualify as a DDOS attack. I'm suspecting they already had my "number" when they responded to my attempt to sign up with "sorry, too busy, try back later"... On Jan 18, 2023, at 7:03 AM, Steve Smith wrote: I suppose pouring all of the FriAM traffic into (even my own bloviations) a chatbot might be a bit usurious (the fool's errand of a fool errant)? On 1/17/23 2:37 PM, glen wrote: You might try using the OpenAI API directly. It takes some work, but not much. https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fopenai.com%2fapi%2f=E,1,HJ318n4srAACDIyWEzfPOzvMVtqgSqwLdvAizjLkkb1uDy5X4kPvoq_dYLKkkGFIA3DZ_FVdqrBvZUIyd5cGsQuJLe7SGEwu5RiJtC6GcsSxUoVp_V41JGDy=1 Or you could sign up for this: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/general-availability-of-azure-openai-service-expands-access-to-large-advanced-ai-models-with-added-enterprise-benefits/ I would hook you up to my Slack bot that queries GPT3 for every channel message. But that might get expensive with a verbose person like you! 8^D I can imagine some veerrryyy long prompts. On 1/17/23 12:57, Steve Smith wrote: On 1/17/23 1:08 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: Dogs have about 500 million neurons in their cortex. Neurons have about 7,000 synaptic connections, so I think my dog is a lot smarter than a billion parameter LLM. :-) And I bet (s)he channels *at least* one FriAM member's affect pretty well also! My 9 month old golden-doodle does as good of a job at that (I won't name names) as my (now deceased 11 year old Akita and my 9 year old chocolate dobie mix bot did) but nobody here really demonstrates the basic nature of either my 9 month old tabby or her 20 year old black-mouser predecessor.There is very little overlap. The jays and the woodpeckers and the finches and towhees and sparrows and nuthatches and robins and the mating pair of doves and the several ravens and the (courting?) pair of owls (that I only hear hooting to one another in the night) and the lone (that I see) hawk and the lone blue heron (very more occasionally) and the flock(lets) of geese migrating down the rio-grande flyway... their aggregate neural complexity is only multiplicative (order 100-1000x) that of any given beast... but somehow their interactions (this is without the half-dozen species of rodentia and leporidae and racoons and insects and worms and ) would seem to have a more combinatorial network of relations? I tried signing up to try chatGPT for myself (thanks to Glen's Nick Cave blog-link) and was denied because "too busy, try back later" and realized that it had become a locus for (first world) humans to express and combine their greatest hopes and worse fears in a single place. This seems like a higher-order training set? Not just the intersection of all things "worth saying" but somehow filtered/diffracted through "the things (some) people are interested in in particular"... -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam=E,1,Q1HAmGNq-4qQpfbq0DfLXuFeNbuzE822K_GzY0xfgdrSHyDpeUqW_VgLZ-2Kq19ijfCG9e7wEFdAv26S-o1Sl5oD1eU95cmoXWWA9H4-XcuGNF-mJXo9MBLiCQ,,=1 to (un)subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com=E,1,w7n7oYM9aADeW_87EBwWg3qb__jTpRMuz3zJjVV31KOB36kJRxrRvicMMz2zxuD5U4FqugvocrX4ZnruPv7dVvjvq0UNtcUs4uEYPCQTIXR2-MF5GUmmBzxdTHQV=1 FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f=E,1,vVM3Lmp0D4U8PPxQ6KGkDluW6BUNfKH8BBpOth_NPab-Uupf4IQO0h_8QZvB1QbXnQ1aKjAFUsycR-8ringk7QoZd8nfeqgEVpWuaB5TQodZFLjYMzofiA,,=1 archives: 5/2017 thru present https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f=E,1,FP8Iyk95eJ9RiKUEMxS166hzoBlr-Wtp2ltlp9feoQ25x-sK2Z3wBu8Z5gnUaXf5Qggt2XCac9Z24CCsm3s0UftsJp9SsfN8jgZn9JOoIhgEpYPZ=1 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
Isn’t this expected from Effective Altruism? There will be people sacrificed.. From: Friam On Behalf Of Steve Smith Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 2:09 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW Sadly, there are some hidden elements to all that techno-optimism. E.g. https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m [https://nitter.cz/pic/media%2FFmwNndiWIAIYYtf.png%3Fname%3Dsmall] sounds like the "woke mob" is interfering with patriotic bestial pedophiles who are just exercising their first, second, maybe fifth and just in case, the ninth amendment rights? ... Every time I respond to a Captcha challenge, I feel as if I'm being conscripted to help train an image recognition ML model. And do we know how (not if) OpenAI, et alii are using *our questions* to train a new (subset of) model? On 1/18/23 00:40, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: I totally agree that realizable behavior is what matters. The elephant in the room is whether AI (and robotics of course) will (not to replace but to) be able to do better than humans in all respects, including come up with creative solutions to not only the world's most pressing problems but also small creative things like writing poems, and then to do the mental and physical tasks required to provide goods and services to all in the world, Sam Altman said there are two things that will shape our future; intelligence and energy. If we have real abundant intelligence and energy, the world will be very different indeed. To quote Sam Altmen at https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms <https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms><https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms> : "intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most things we want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be radically different, and can be amazingly better." On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com><mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is what matters. Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will be leakage between components. A large network of transistors or neurons are sufficiently similar for my purposes. The unrolling would be inside a skull, so somewhat isolated from interference. -Original Message- From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com><mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of glen Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com><mailto:friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying about from an unrolled recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. That's not to say a trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But unrolled seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance. On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote: > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago on serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an unrolling of recursion. -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
Sadly, there are some hidden elements to all that techno-optimism. E.g. https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m sounds like the "woke mob" is interfering with patriotic bestial pedophiles who are just exercising their first, second, maybe fifth and just in case, the ninth amendment rights? ... Every time I respond to a Captcha challenge, I feel as if I'm being conscripted to help train an image recognition ML model. And do we know how (not if) OpenAI, et alii are using *our questions* to train a new (subset of) model? On 1/18/23 00:40, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: I totally agree that realizable behavior is what matters. The elephant in the room is whether AI (and robotics of course) will (not to replace but to) be able to do better than humans in all respects, including come up with creative solutions to not only the world's most pressing problems but also small creative things like writing poems, and then to do the mental and physical tasks required to provide goods and services to all in the world, Sam Altman said there are two things that will shape our future; intelligence and energy. If we have real abundant intelligence and energy, the world will be very different indeed. To quote Sam Altmen at https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms <https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms> : "intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most things we want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be radically different, and can be amazingly better." On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is what matters. Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will be leakage between components. A large network of transistors or neurons are sufficiently similar for my purposes. The unrolling would be inside a skull, so somewhat isolated from interference. -Original Message- From: Friam <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of glen Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying about from an unrolled recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. That's not to say a trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But unrolled seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance. On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote: > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago on serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an unrolling of recursion. -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
That might qualify as a DDOS attack. > On Jan 18, 2023, at 7:03 AM, Steve Smith wrote: > > I suppose pouring all of the FriAM traffic into (even my own bloviations) a > chatbot might be a bit usurious (the fool's errand of a fool errant)? > > On 1/17/23 2:37 PM, glen wrote: >> You might try using the OpenAI API directly. It takes some work, but not >> much. >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fopenai.com%2fapi%2f=E,1,HJ318n4srAACDIyWEzfPOzvMVtqgSqwLdvAizjLkkb1uDy5X4kPvoq_dYLKkkGFIA3DZ_FVdqrBvZUIyd5cGsQuJLe7SGEwu5RiJtC6GcsSxUoVp_V41JGDy=1 >> >> Or you could sign up for this: >> >> https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/general-availability-of-azure-openai-service-expands-access-to-large-advanced-ai-models-with-added-enterprise-benefits/ >> >> >> I would hook you up to my Slack bot that queries GPT3 for every channel >> message. But that might get expensive with a verbose person like you! 8^D I >> can imagine some veerrryyy long prompts. >> >> >> On 1/17/23 12:57, Steve Smith wrote: >>> >>> On 1/17/23 1:08 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: Dogs have about 500 million neurons in their cortex. Neurons have about 7,000 synaptic connections, so I think my dog is a lot smarter than a billion parameter LLM. :-) >>> And I bet (s)he channels *at least* one FriAM member's affect pretty well >>> also! >>> >>> My 9 month old golden-doodle does as good of a job at that (I won't name >>> names) as my (now deceased 11 year old Akita and my 9 year old chocolate >>> dobie mix bot did) but nobody here really demonstrates the basic nature of >>> either my 9 month old tabby or her 20 year old black-mouser predecessor. >>> There is very little overlap. >>> >>> The jays and the woodpeckers and the finches and towhees and sparrows and >>> nuthatches and robins and the mating pair of doves and the several ravens >>> and the (courting?) pair of owls (that I only hear hooting to one another >>> in the night) and the lone (that I see) hawk and the lone blue heron (very >>> more occasionally) and the flock(lets) of geese migrating down the >>> rio-grande flyway... their aggregate neural complexity is only >>> multiplicative (order 100-1000x) that of any given beast... but somehow >>> their interactions (this is without the half-dozen species of rodentia and >>> leporidae and racoons and insects and worms and ) would seem to have a >>> more combinatorial network of relations? >>> >>> I tried signing up to try chatGPT for myself (thanks to Glen's Nick Cave >>> blog-link) and was denied because "too busy, try back later" and realized >>> that it had become a locus for (first world) humans to express and combine >>> their greatest hopes and worse fears in a single place. >>> >>> This seems like a higher-order training set? Not just the intersection of >>> all things "worth saying" but somehow filtered/diffracted through "the >>> things (some) people are interested in in particular"... >> >> > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam=E,1,Q1HAmGNq-4qQpfbq0DfLXuFeNbuzE822K_GzY0xfgdrSHyDpeUqW_VgLZ-2Kq19ijfCG9e7wEFdAv26S-o1Sl5oD1eU95cmoXWWA9H4-XcuGNF-mJXo9MBLiCQ,,=1 > to (un)subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com=E,1,w7n7oYM9aADeW_87EBwWg3qb__jTpRMuz3zJjVV31KOB36kJRxrRvicMMz2zxuD5U4FqugvocrX4ZnruPv7dVvjvq0UNtcUs4uEYPCQTIXR2-MF5GUmmBzxdTHQV=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f=E,1,vVM3Lmp0D4U8PPxQ6KGkDluW6BUNfKH8BBpOth_NPab-Uupf4IQO0h_8QZvB1QbXnQ1aKjAFUsycR-8ringk7QoZd8nfeqgEVpWuaB5TQodZFLjYMzofiA,,=1 > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f=E,1,FP8Iyk95eJ9RiKUEMxS166hzoBlr-Wtp2ltlp9feoQ25x-sK2Z3wBu8Z5gnUaXf5Qggt2XCac9Z24CCsm3s0UftsJp9SsfN8jgZn9JOoIhgEpYPZ=1 > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
This person made it even easier: https://github.com/karfly/chatgpt_telegram_bot On 1/18/23 09:51, Steve Smith wrote: I might probably be able to install/load/try the openAI model if I wasn't wasting so much time careening down memory lane and trying to register what I see in my rear view mirrors with what I see screaming down the Autobhan-of-the-mind through my windscreen! -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
Sadly, there are some hidden elements to all that techno-optimism. E.g. https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m On 1/18/23 00:40, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: I totally agree that realizable behavior is what matters. The elephant in the room is whether AI (and robotics of course) will (not to replace but to) be able to do better than humans in all respects, including come up with creative solutions to not only the world's most pressing problems but also small creative things like writing poems, and then to do the mental and physical tasks required to provide goods and services to all in the world, Sam Altman said there are two things that will shape our future; intelligence and energy. If we have real abundant intelligence and energy, the world will be very different indeed. To quote Sam Altmen at https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms <https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms> : "intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most things we want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be radically different, and can be amazingly better." On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is what matters. Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will be leakage between components. A large network of transistors or neurons are sufficiently similar for my purposes. The unrolling would be inside a skull, so somewhat isolated from interference. -Original Message- From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of glen Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying about from an unrolled recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. That's not to say a trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But unrolled seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance. On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote: > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago on serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an unrolling of recursion. -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
I totally agree that realizable behavior is what matters. The elephant in the room is whether AI (and robotics of course) will (not to replace but to) be able to do better than humans in all respects, including come up with creative solutions to not only the world's most pressing problems but also small creative things like writing poems, and then to do the mental and physical tasks required to provide goods and services to all in the world, Sam Altman said there are two things that will shape our future; intelligence and energy. If we have real abundant intelligence and energy, the world will be very different indeed. To quote Sam Altmen at https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms : "intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most things we want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be radically different, and can be amazingly better." On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is what > matters. Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will be > leakage between components. A large network of transistors or neurons are > sufficiently similar for my purposes. The unrolling would be inside a > skull, so somewhat isolated from interference. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam On Behalf Of glen > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW > > I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no > interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the > ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying about from an unrolled > recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. That's not to say a > trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But unrolled > seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance. > > On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago on > serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an unrolling > of recursion. > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is what matters. Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will be leakage between components. A large network of transistors or neurons are sufficiently similar for my purposes. The unrolling would be inside a skull, so somewhat isolated from interference. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of glen Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying about from an unrolled recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. That's not to say a trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But unrolled seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance. On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote: > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago on > serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an unrolling > of recursion. -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no interaction with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the ambiguity in that statement, the artifacts laying about from an unrolled recursion might be seen and used by outsiders. That's not to say a trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But unrolled seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance. On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote: I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago on serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an unrolling of recursion. -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
I suppose pouring all of the FriAM traffic into (even my own bloviations) a chatbot might be a bit usurious (the fool's errand of a fool errant)? On 1/17/23 2:37 PM, glen wrote: You might try using the OpenAI API directly. It takes some work, but not much. https://openai.com/api/ Or you could sign up for this: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/general-availability-of-azure-openai-service-expands-access-to-large-advanced-ai-models-with-added-enterprise-benefits/ I would hook you up to my Slack bot that queries GPT3 for every channel message. But that might get expensive with a verbose person like you! 8^D I can imagine some veerrryyy long prompts. On 1/17/23 12:57, Steve Smith wrote: On 1/17/23 1:08 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: Dogs have about 500 million neurons in their cortex. Neurons have about 7,000 synaptic connections, so I think my dog is a lot smarter than a billion parameter LLM. :-) And I bet (s)he channels *at least* one FriAM member's affect pretty well also! My 9 month old golden-doodle does as good of a job at that (I won't name names) as my (now deceased 11 year old Akita and my 9 year old chocolate dobie mix bot did) but nobody here really demonstrates the basic nature of either my 9 month old tabby or her 20 year old black-mouser predecessor. There is very little overlap. The jays and the woodpeckers and the finches and towhees and sparrows and nuthatches and robins and the mating pair of doves and the several ravens and the (courting?) pair of owls (that I only hear hooting to one another in the night) and the lone (that I see) hawk and the lone blue heron (very more occasionally) and the flock(lets) of geese migrating down the rio-grande flyway... their aggregate neural complexity is only multiplicative (order 100-1000x) that of any given beast... but somehow their interactions (this is without the half-dozen species of rodentia and leporidae and racoons and insects and worms and ) would seem to have a more combinatorial network of relations? I tried signing up to try chatGPT for myself (thanks to Glen's Nick Cave blog-link) and was denied because "too busy, try back later" and realized that it had become a locus for (first world) humans to express and combine their greatest hopes and worse fears in a single place. This seems like a higher-order training set? Not just the intersection of all things "worth saying" but somehow filtered/diffracted through "the things (some) people are interested in in particular"... -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago on serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an unrolling of recursion. From: Friam on behalf of glen Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:21 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW Being a too-literal person, who never gets the joke, I have to say that these simple scalings, combinatorial or not, don't capture the interconnectionist point being made in the pain article. The absolute numbers of elements (neurons, synapses, signaling molecules, etc.) flatten it all out. But _ganglion_, that's a different thing. What we're looking for are loops and "integratory" structures. I think that's where we can start to find a scaling for smartness. In that context, my guess is the heart is closer to ChatGPT in its smartness than either of those are to the human gut. But structure-based assessments like these merely complement behavior-based assessments. We could quantify the number of *jobs* done by the thing. The heart has fewer jobs to do than the gut. And the gut has fewer jobs to do than the dog. Etc. Of course, the lines between jobs aren't all that crisp, especially as the complexity of the thing grows. Behaviors in complex things are composable and polymorphic. In spite of our imagining what ChatGPT is doing, it's really only doing 1 thing: choosing the most likely next token given the previous tokens. You *might* be able to serialize your dog and suggest she's really just choosing the most likely next behavior given the previous behaviors. But my guess is dog owners perceive (or impute) that dogs resolve contradictions that arise in parallel. (chase the ball? chew the bone? continue chewing the bone until you get to the ball?) Contradiction resolution is evidence of more than 1 task. You could gussy up the model by providing a single interface to an ensemble of models. Then it might look more like a dog, depending on the algorithm(s) used to resolve contradictions between models. But to get closer to dog-complexity, you'd have to wire the models together so that they could contradict each other but still feed off each other in some way. A model that changes its mind midway through its response would be good. I haven't had a dog in a long time. But I seem to remember they were easy to redirect, despite the old saying "like a dog with a bone". On 1/17/23 12:51, Prof David West wrote: > Apropos of nothing: > > The human heart has roughly 40,000 neurons and the human gut around 0.1 > billion neurons (sensory neurons, neurotransmitters, ganglia, and motor > neurons). > > So the human gut is about 1/5 as smart as Marcus's dog?? > > davew > > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023, at 1:08 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> Dogs have about 500 million neurons in their cortex. Neurons have >> about 7,000 synaptic connections, so I think my dog is a lot smarter >> than a billion parameter LLM. :-) >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 17, 2023, at 11:35 AM, glen wrote: >>> >>> >>> 1) "I asked Chat GPT to write a song in the style of Nick Cave and this is >>> what it produced. What do you think?" >>> https://www.theredhandfiles.com/chat-gpt-what-do-you-think/ >>> >>> 2) "Is it pain if it does not hurt? On the unlikelihood of insect pain" >>> https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/canadian-entomologist/article/is-it-pain-if-it-does-not-hurt-on-the-unlikelihood-of-insect-pain/9A60617352A45B15E25307F85FF2E8F2# >>> >>> Taken separately, (1) and (2) are each interesting, if seemingly >>> orthogonal. But what twines them, I think, is the concept of "mutual >>> information". I read (2) before I read (1) because, for some bizarre >>> reason, my day job involves trying to understand pain mechanisms. And (2) >>> speaks directly (if only implicitly) to things like IIT. If you read (1) >>> first, it's difficult to avoid snapping quickly into NickC's canal. Despite >>> NickT's objection to an inner life, it seems clear that the nuance we see >>> on the surface, at least longitudinally, *needs* an inner life. You simply >>> can't get good stuff out of an entirely flat/transparent/reactive/Markovian >>> object. >>> >>> However, what NickC misses is that LLMs *have* some intertwined mutual >>> information within them. Similar to asking whether an insect experiences >>> pain, we can ask whether a X billion parameter LLM experiences something >>> like "suffering". My guess is the answer is "yes". It may not be a good >>> analog to what we call "suffering", though ... maybe &q
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
You might try using the OpenAI API directly. It takes some work, but not much. https://openai.com/api/ Or you could sign up for this: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/general-availability-of-azure-openai-service-expands-access-to-large-advanced-ai-models-with-added-enterprise-benefits/ I would hook you up to my Slack bot that queries GPT3 for every channel message. But that might get expensive with a verbose person like you! 8^D I can imagine some veerrryyy long prompts. On 1/17/23 12:57, Steve Smith wrote: On 1/17/23 1:08 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: Dogs have about 500 million neurons in their cortex. Neurons have about 7,000 synaptic connections, so I think my dog is a lot smarter than a billion parameter LLM. :-) And I bet (s)he channels *at least* one FriAM member's affect pretty well also! My 9 month old golden-doodle does as good of a job at that (I won't name names) as my (now deceased 11 year old Akita and my 9 year old chocolate dobie mix bot did) but nobody here really demonstrates the basic nature of either my 9 month old tabby or her 20 year old black-mouser predecessor. There is very little overlap. The jays and the woodpeckers and the finches and towhees and sparrows and nuthatches and robins and the mating pair of doves and the several ravens and the (courting?) pair of owls (that I only hear hooting to one another in the night) and the lone (that I see) hawk and the lone blue heron (very more occasionally) and the flock(lets) of geese migrating down the rio-grande flyway... their aggregate neural complexity is only multiplicative (order 100-1000x) that of any given beast... but somehow their interactions (this is without the half-dozen species of rodentia and leporidae and racoons and insects and worms and ) would seem to have a more combinatorial network of relations? I tried signing up to try chatGPT for myself (thanks to Glen's Nick Cave blog-link) and was denied because "too busy, try back later" and realized that it had become a locus for (first world) humans to express and combine their greatest hopes and worse fears in a single place. This seems like a higher-order training set? Not just the intersection of all things "worth saying" but somehow filtered/diffracted through "the things (some) people are interested in in particular"... -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
Being a too-literal person, who never gets the joke, I have to say that these simple scalings, combinatorial or not, don't capture the interconnectionist point being made in the pain article. The absolute numbers of elements (neurons, synapses, signaling molecules, etc.) flatten it all out. But _ganglion_, that's a different thing. What we're looking for are loops and "integratory" structures. I think that's where we can start to find a scaling for smartness. In that context, my guess is the heart is closer to ChatGPT in its smartness than either of those are to the human gut. But structure-based assessments like these merely complement behavior-based assessments. We could quantify the number of *jobs* done by the thing. The heart has fewer jobs to do than the gut. And the gut has fewer jobs to do than the dog. Etc. Of course, the lines between jobs aren't all that crisp, especially as the complexity of the thing grows. Behaviors in complex things are composable and polymorphic. In spite of our imagining what ChatGPT is doing, it's really only doing 1 thing: choosing the most likely next token given the previous tokens. You *might* be able to serialize your dog and suggest she's really just choosing the most likely next behavior given the previous behaviors. But my guess is dog owners perceive (or impute) that dogs resolve contradictions that arise in parallel. (chase the ball? chew the bone? continue chewing the bone until you get to the ball?) Contradiction resolution is evidence of more than 1 task. You could gussy up the model by providing a single interface to an ensemble of models. Then it might look more like a dog, depending on the algorithm(s) used to resolve contradictions between models. But to get closer to dog-complexity, you'd have to wire the models together so that they could contradict each other but still feed off each other in some way. A model that changes its mind midway through its response would be good. I haven't had a dog in a long time. But I seem to remember they were easy to redirect, despite the old saying "like a dog with a bone". On 1/17/23 12:51, Prof David West wrote: Apropos of nothing: The human heart has roughly 40,000 neurons and the human gut around 0.1 billion neurons (sensory neurons, neurotransmitters, ganglia, and motor neurons). So the human gut is about 1/5 as smart as Marcus's dog?? davew On Tue, Jan 17, 2023, at 1:08 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: Dogs have about 500 million neurons in their cortex. Neurons have about 7,000 synaptic connections, so I think my dog is a lot smarter than a billion parameter LLM. :-) Sent from my iPhone On Jan 17, 2023, at 11:35 AM, glen wrote: 1) "I asked Chat GPT to write a song in the style of Nick Cave and this is what it produced. What do you think?" https://www.theredhandfiles.com/chat-gpt-what-do-you-think/ 2) "Is it pain if it does not hurt? On the unlikelihood of insect pain" https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/canadian-entomologist/article/is-it-pain-if-it-does-not-hurt-on-the-unlikelihood-of-insect-pain/9A60617352A45B15E25307F85FF2E8F2# Taken separately, (1) and (2) are each interesting, if seemingly orthogonal. But what twines them, I think, is the concept of "mutual information". I read (2) before I read (1) because, for some bizarre reason, my day job involves trying to understand pain mechanisms. And (2) speaks directly (if only implicitly) to things like IIT. If you read (1) first, it's difficult to avoid snapping quickly into NickC's canal. Despite NickT's objection to an inner life, it seems clear that the nuance we see on the surface, at least longitudinally, *needs* an inner life. You simply can't get good stuff out of an entirely flat/transparent/reactive/Markovian object. However, what NickC misses is that LLMs *have* some intertwined mutual information within them. Similar to asking whether an insect experiences pain, we can ask whether a X billion parameter LLM experiences something like "suffering". My guess is the answer is "yes". It may not be a good analog to what we call "suffering", though ... maybe "friction"? ... maybe "release"? My sense is that when you engage a LLM (embedded in a larger construct that handles the prompts and live learning, of course) in such a way that it assembles a response that nobody else has evoked, it might get something akin to a tingle ... or like the relief you feel when scratching an itch ... of course it would be primordial because the self-attention in such a system is hopelessly disabled compared to the rich self-attention loops we have in our meaty bodies. But it just *might* be there in some primitive sense. As always, agnosticism is the only rational stance. And I won't trust the songs written by LLMs until I see a few of them commit suicide, overdose, or punch a TMZ cameraman in the face. -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. ---
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
On 1/17/23 1:08 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: Dogs have about 500 million neurons in their cortex. Neurons have about 7,000 synaptic connections, so I think my dog is a lot smarter than a billion parameter LLM. :-) And I bet (s)he channels *at least* one FriAM member's affect pretty well also! My 9 month old golden-doodle does as good of a job at that (I won't name names) as my (now deceased 11 year old Akita and my 9 year old chocolate dobie mix bot did) but nobody here really demonstrates the basic nature of either my 9 month old tabby or her 20 year old black-mouser predecessor. There is very little overlap. The jays and the woodpeckers and the finches and towhees and sparrows and nuthatches and robins and the mating pair of doves and the several ravens and the (courting?) pair of owls (that I only hear hooting to one another in the night) and the lone (that I see) hawk and the lone blue heron (very more occasionally) and the flock(lets) of geese migrating down the rio-grande flyway... their aggregate neural complexity is only multiplicative (order 100-1000x) that of any given beast... but somehow their interactions (this is without the half-dozen species of rodentia and leporidae and racoons and insects and worms and ) would seem to have a more combinatorial network of relations? I tried signing up to try chatGPT for myself (thanks to Glen's Nick Cave blog-link) and was denied because "too busy, try back later" and realized that it had become a locus for (first world) humans to express and combine their greatest hopes and worse fears in a single place. This seems like a higher-order training set? Not just the intersection of all things "worth saying" but somehow filtered/diffracted through "the things (some) people are interested in in particular"... -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
Apropos of nothing: The human heart has roughly 40,000 neurons and the human gut around 0.1 billion neurons (sensory neurons, neurotransmitters, ganglia, and motor neurons). So the human gut is about 1/5 as smart as Marcus's dog?? davew On Tue, Jan 17, 2023, at 1:08 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Dogs have about 500 million neurons in their cortex. Neurons have > about 7,000 synaptic connections, so I think my dog is a lot smarter > than a billion parameter LLM. :-) > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 17, 2023, at 11:35 AM, glen wrote: >> >> >> 1) "I asked Chat GPT to write a song in the style of Nick Cave and this is >> what it produced. What do you think?" >> https://www.theredhandfiles.com/chat-gpt-what-do-you-think/ >> >> 2) "Is it pain if it does not hurt? On the unlikelihood of insect pain" >> https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/canadian-entomologist/article/is-it-pain-if-it-does-not-hurt-on-the-unlikelihood-of-insect-pain/9A60617352A45B15E25307F85FF2E8F2# >> >> Taken separately, (1) and (2) are each interesting, if seemingly orthogonal. >> But what twines them, I think, is the concept of "mutual information". I >> read (2) before I read (1) because, for some bizarre reason, my day job >> involves trying to understand pain mechanisms. And (2) speaks directly (if >> only implicitly) to things like IIT. If you read (1) first, it's difficult >> to avoid snapping quickly into NickC's canal. Despite NickT's objection to >> an inner life, it seems clear that the nuance we see on the surface, at >> least longitudinally, *needs* an inner life. You simply can't get good stuff >> out of an entirely flat/transparent/reactive/Markovian object. >> >> However, what NickC misses is that LLMs *have* some intertwined mutual >> information within them. Similar to asking whether an insect experiences >> pain, we can ask whether a X billion parameter LLM experiences something >> like "suffering". My guess is the answer is "yes". It may not be a good >> analog to what we call "suffering", though ... maybe "friction"? ... maybe >> "release"? My sense is that when you engage a LLM (embedded in a larger >> construct that handles the prompts and live learning, of course) in such a >> way that it assembles a response that nobody else has evoked, it might get >> something akin to a tingle ... or like the relief you feel when scratching >> an itch ... of course it would be primordial because the self-attention in >> such a system is hopelessly disabled compared to the rich self-attention >> loops we have in our meaty bodies. But it just *might* be there in some >> primitive sense. >> >> As always, agnosticism is the only rational stance. And I won't trust the >> songs written by LLMs until I see a few of them commit suicide, overdose, or >> punch a TMZ cameraman in the face. >> >> -- >> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
Dogs have about 500 million neurons in their cortex. Neurons have about 7,000 synaptic connections, so I think my dog is a lot smarter than a billion parameter LLM. :-) Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 17, 2023, at 11:35 AM, glen wrote: > > > 1) "I asked Chat GPT to write a song in the style of Nick Cave and this is > what it produced. What do you think?" > https://www.theredhandfiles.com/chat-gpt-what-do-you-think/ > > 2) "Is it pain if it does not hurt? On the unlikelihood of insect pain" > https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/canadian-entomologist/article/is-it-pain-if-it-does-not-hurt-on-the-unlikelihood-of-insect-pain/9A60617352A45B15E25307F85FF2E8F2# > > Taken separately, (1) and (2) are each interesting, if seemingly orthogonal. > But what twines them, I think, is the concept of "mutual information". I read > (2) before I read (1) because, for some bizarre reason, my day job involves > trying to understand pain mechanisms. And (2) speaks directly (if only > implicitly) to things like IIT. If you read (1) first, it's difficult to > avoid snapping quickly into NickC's canal. Despite NickT's objection to an > inner life, it seems clear that the nuance we see on the surface, at least > longitudinally, *needs* an inner life. You simply can't get good stuff out of > an entirely flat/transparent/reactive/Markovian object. > > However, what NickC misses is that LLMs *have* some intertwined mutual > information within them. Similar to asking whether an insect experiences > pain, we can ask whether a X billion parameter LLM experiences something like > "suffering". My guess is the answer is "yes". It may not be a good analog to > what we call "suffering", though ... maybe "friction"? ... maybe "release"? > My sense is that when you engage a LLM (embedded in a larger construct that > handles the prompts and live learning, of course) in such a way that it > assembles a response that nobody else has evoked, it might get something akin > to a tingle ... or like the relief you feel when scratching an itch ... of > course it would be primordial because the self-attention in such a system is > hopelessly disabled compared to the rich self-attention loops we have in our > meaty bodies. But it just *might* be there in some primitive sense. > > As always, agnosticism is the only rational stance. And I won't trust the > songs written by LLMs until I see a few of them commit suicide, overdose, or > punch a TMZ cameraman in the face. > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
[FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
1) "I asked Chat GPT to write a song in the style of Nick Cave and this is what it produced. What do you think?" https://www.theredhandfiles.com/chat-gpt-what-do-you-think/ 2) "Is it pain if it does not hurt? On the unlikelihood of insect pain" https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/canadian-entomologist/article/is-it-pain-if-it-does-not-hurt-on-the-unlikelihood-of-insect-pain/9A60617352A45B15E25307F85FF2E8F2# Taken separately, (1) and (2) are each interesting, if seemingly orthogonal. But what twines them, I think, is the concept of "mutual information". I read (2) before I read (1) because, for some bizarre reason, my day job involves trying to understand pain mechanisms. And (2) speaks directly (if only implicitly) to things like IIT. If you read (1) first, it's difficult to avoid snapping quickly into NickC's canal. Despite NickT's objection to an inner life, it seems clear that the nuance we see on the surface, at least longitudinally, *needs* an inner life. You simply can't get good stuff out of an entirely flat/transparent/reactive/Markovian object. However, what NickC misses is that LLMs *have* some intertwined mutual information within them. Similar to asking whether an insect experiences pain, we can ask whether a X billion parameter LLM experiences something like "suffering". My guess is the answer is "yes". It may not be a good analog to what we call "suffering", though ... maybe "friction"? ... maybe "release"? My sense is that when you engage a LLM (embedded in a larger construct that handles the prompts and live learning, of course) in such a way that it assembles a response that nobody else has evoked, it might get something akin to a tingle ... or like the relief you feel when scratching an itch ... of course it would be primordial because the self-attention in such a system is hopelessly disabled compared to the rich self-attention loops we have in our meaty bodies. But it just *might* be there in some primitive sense. As always, agnosticism is the only rational stance. And I won't trust the songs written by LLMs until I see a few of them commit suicide, overdose, or punch a TMZ cameraman in the face. -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
