Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents

[glen ☣]

I don't know.  I don't care about him or what he wants/thinks.  To some extent, 
he's part of our tribe and in that sense, we have an obligation to either own 
the repercussions of his actions/statements _or_ rebuke him and police our 
tribe.  But other than that, he's a silly person and I just don't care what he 
wants.

But I do like Gittlitz' essay and the vampire metaphor.  It reminded me of 
Michael Moorcock's character Jerry Cornelius.

On 01/03/2017 01:16 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> It is a plausible claim and he helped evidence it by supporting Trump.  But 
> if the body politic does nothing informed or intelligent, then I would guess 
> their economic activity is also unmotivated and without merit.   Why is 
> slogging around in blood (money) better than slogging around in muck (power)? 
>   Just different kinds of social activity and all of them without much 
> intellectual merit.  He's rich, he can easily delegate this tiresome 
> interfacing to his lawyers.   What does he really want?

-- 
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents

[Marcus Daniels]

 "[..] our education culminates with the knowledge that the broader education 
of the body politic has become a fool’s errand.".  

It is a plausible claim and he helped evidence it by supporting Trump.  But if 
the body politic does nothing informed or intelligent, then I would guess their 
economic activity is also unmotivated and without merit.   Why is slogging 
around in blood (money) better than slogging around in muck (power)?   Just 
different kinds of social activity and all of them without much intellectual 
merit.  He's rich, he can easily delegate this tiresome interfacing to his 
lawyers.   What does he really want?

Marcus
-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2017 1:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents


Well, the cow<->Thielian boundary is ephemeral.  2 cows can reproduce to make a 
Thielian.  Thielian production is chaotic and polyphenic.  And that's likely to 
continue despite any widespread but non-catastrophic problem with the cattle 
population.  The Thielian epistocracy will need some threshold number of cattle 
in order to maintain a healthy rate of cow->Thielian production.  Likewise, 
they only need to educate a small subset of the cattle to maintain that 
cow->Thielian production.  We've got that infrastructure in place with high 
prestige, high competition, high cost schools like Stanford and the ivy 
leagues.  If we can make vouchers and charter schools ubiquitous, then we can 
hone the cow->Thielian production mechanism even further.

The ideology is packaged for the cattle as maximizing freedom (both positive -- 
free to make a sandwich -- and negative -- won't be punched in the face today). 
 But it's actually a crypto-epistocracy ... or perhaps crypto-oligarchy if you 
include the entire sensori-motor complex (not just the mind) in the predicate 
for inclusion.  The ideology is basically to raise the bar very high so that 
only the best cows can become Thielians.  And shape the bar so that only 
Thielian-shaped cows can breach it.

Once you're categorized as a Thielian, then you are free.  Until then, your 
fate is fragile.

The interesting questions for the vampire metaphor involve the caste system for 
the cattle.  Horror and sci-fi have thouroughly explored the Renfield and Igor 
tropes, as well as the characters who ingraciate themselves (by letting them 
feed) in the hopes a charitable Thielian will make them immortal one day.  And, 
of course, there's the classic Eloi-Morlock conception, wherein the Thielians 
are "born on 3rd base and think they hit a triple".  cf. Thiel's comment 
<https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/education-libertarian>: 
"Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of 
the franchise to women — ... — have rendered the notion of 'capitalist 
democracy' into an oxymoron."


On 01/03/2017 10:25 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I was following you with the blood, but if they need fresh minds and, due to 
> their sabotage of the health care act, they get widespread microcephaly (say) 
> from their pool of baby makers, then that's a problem, no?  Likewise if the 
> time and resources aren't given for education.It seems like these agents 
> will be more on the smart cow side than the smart human side.  Maybe they can 
> pull a plow.  I still don't get what this ideology is other than a 
> predilection for megalomania and tribalism.  Why are these short lifespan 
> small-cranium folks the cool kids?   It's much more inspiring to me to hear 
> Jerry Brown say, "We'll launch our own damned climate satellites." or hear a 
> ridiculous performance of the free software song. 

--
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents

[glen ☣]

Well, the cow<->Thielian boundary is ephemeral.  2 cows can reproduce to make a 
Thielian.  Thielian production is chaotic and polyphenic.  And that's likely to 
continue despite any widespread but non-catastrophic problem with the cattle 
population.  The Thielian epistocracy will need some threshold number of cattle 
in order to maintain a healthy rate of cow->Thielian production.  Likewise, 
they only need to educate a small subset of the cattle to maintain that 
cow->Thielian production.  We've got that infrastructure in place with high 
prestige, high competition, high cost schools like Stanford and the ivy 
leagues.  If we can make vouchers and charter schools ubiquitous, then we can 
hone the cow->Thielian production mechanism even further.

The ideology is packaged for the cattle as maximizing freedom (both positive -- 
free to make a sandwich -- and negative -- won't be punched in the face today). 
 But it's actually a crypto-epistocracy ... or perhaps crypto-oligarchy if you 
include the entire sensori-motor complex (not just the mind) in the predicate 
for inclusion.  The ideology is basically to raise the bar very high so that 
only the best cows can become Thielians.  And shape the bar so that only 
Thielian-shaped cows can breach it.

Once you're categorized as a Thielian, then you are free.  Until then, your 
fate is fragile.

The interesting questions for the vampire metaphor involve the caste system for 
the cattle.  Horror and sci-fi have thouroughly explored the Renfield and Igor 
tropes, as well as the characters who ingraciate themselves (by letting them 
feed) in the hopes a charitable Thielian will make them immortal one day.  And, 
of course, there's the classic Eloi-Morlock conception, wherein the Thielians 
are "born on 3rd base and think they hit a triple".  cf. Thiel's comment 
: 
"Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of 
the franchise to women — ... — have rendered the notion of 'capitalist 
democracy' into an oxymoron."


On 01/03/2017 10:25 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I was following you with the blood, but if they need fresh minds and, due to 
> their sabotage of the health care act, they get widespread microcephaly (say) 
> from their pool of baby makers, then that's a problem, no?  Likewise if the 
> time and resources aren't given for education.It seems like these agents 
> will be more on the smart cow side than the smart human side.  Maybe they can 
> pull a plow.  I still don't get what this ideology is other than a 
> predilection for megalomania and tribalism.  Why are these short lifespan 
> small-cranium folks the cool kids?   It's much more inspiring to me to hear 
> Jerry Brown say, "We'll launch our own damned climate satellites." or hear a 
> ridiculous performance of the free software song. 

-- 
☣ glen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents

[Marcus Daniels]

I was following you with the blood, but if they need fresh minds and, due to 
their sabotage of the health care act, they get widespread microcephaly (say) 
from their pool of baby makers, then that's a problem, no?  Likewise if the 
time and resources aren't given for education.It seems like these agents 
will be more on the smart cow side than the smart human side.  Maybe they can 
pull a plow.  I still don't get what this ideology is other than a predilection 
for megalomania and tribalism.  Why are these short lifespan small-cranium 
folks the cool kids?   It's much more inspiring to me to hear Jerry Brown say, 
"We'll launch our own damned climate satellites." or hear a ridiculous 
performance of the free software song. 

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2017 11:00 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents


The obvious answer is that the Thiels know they need fresh _minds_ as well as 
fresh blood, at least for now.  And this is more than simply growing 
disrupter-smart cows who will ascend to full humanity in their ranks.  They 
need a delicate balance of suggestibility and intelligence ... cows who will, 
when they ascend, adopt the appropriate ideology that will help them seastead, 
colonize mars, extend lives (of their ranks, not the herd, of course), build 
and populate cyberspace, etc.  They don't want just any old intellectuals, 
artists, or artisans, brilliant as they may be.  Scott Aaronson is a good 
candidate, for example.  Although he (publicly) rejects Thiel's endorsement of 
Trump and kinda-sorta talks like a liberal, he's enough of a linear thinker to 
separate political-Thiel from tech-disrupter-Thiel and defend that linearity.  
And Scott's willingness to (publicly) express good will toward things like 
feminism, yet adopt a soft fighting style when SJWs attack him for implicit 
misogyny.   Sam Harris is another good candidate.

The Thiels want to grow more Aaronsons and Harris'.  And you can't (yet) do 
that with herds of robots.

On 01/03/2017 09:35 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> As a technologist, I object to the crudeness of the strategy.  If the blood 
> thing really works, figure out why and engineer an resource efficient 
> alternative treatment.   All these cows unnecessarily adding methane to the 
> atmosphere can't be good; it certainly isn't an elegant solution.   At least 
> send them to Mars to help form a temporary atmosphere.   And why have a 
> patina of "self-governance" when robotics are an option?   Overall, what do 
> the they hope to accomplish here?   It all seems poorly motivated!  Boring, 
> even.   Why can't they self-regulate and fall into a normal sort of 
> depression like the rest of us?   


--
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents

[glen ☣]

The obvious answer is that the Thiels know they need fresh _minds_ as well as 
fresh blood, at least for now.  And this is more than simply growing 
disrupter-smart cows who will ascend to full humanity in their ranks.  They 
need a delicate balance of suggestibility and intelligence ... cows who will, 
when they ascend, adopt the appropriate ideology that will help them seastead, 
colonize mars, extend lives (of their ranks, not the herd, of course), build 
and populate cyberspace, etc.  They don't want just any old intellectuals, 
artists, or artisans, brilliant as they may be.  Scott Aaronson is a good 
candidate, for example.  Although he (publicly) rejects Thiel's endorsement of 
Trump and kinda-sorta talks like a liberal, he's enough of a linear thinker to 
separate political-Thiel from tech-disrupter-Thiel and defend that linearity.  
And Scott's willingness to (publicly) express good will toward things like 
feminism, yet adopt a soft fighting style when SJWs attack him for implicit 
misogyny.   Sam Harris is another good candidate.

The Thiels want to grow more Aaronsons and Harris'.  And you can't (yet) do 
that with herds of robots.

On 01/03/2017 09:35 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> As a technologist, I object to the crudeness of the strategy.  If the blood 
> thing really works, figure out why and engineer an resource efficient 
> alternative treatment.   All these cows unnecessarily adding methane to the 
> atmosphere can't be good; it certainly isn't an elegant solution.   At least 
> send them to Mars to help form a temporary atmosphere.   And why have a 
> patina of "self-governance" when robotics are an option?   Overall, what do 
> the they hope to accomplish here?   It all seems poorly motivated!  Boring, 
> even.   Why can't they self-regulate and fall into a normal sort of 
> depression like the rest of us?   


-- 
☣ glen

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents

[Marcus Daniels]

As a technologist, I object to the crudeness of the strategy.  If the blood 
thing really works, figure out why and engineer an resource efficient 
alternative treatment.   All these cows unnecessarily adding methane to the 
atmosphere can't be good; it certainly isn't an elegant solution.   At least 
send them to Mars to help form a temporary atmosphere.   And why have a patina 
of "self-governance" when robotics are an option?   Overall, what do the they 
hope to accomplish here?   It all seems poorly motivated!  Boring, even.   Why 
can't they self-regulate and fall into a normal sort of depression like the 
rest of us?   

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2017 10:14 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents


Well, again, the Thiel-as-vampire metaphor would argue that it's not in the 
best interests of the libertarians to grow a herd of people completely unable 
to take care of themselves.  If the cattle is too dependent, then they'd be 
forced to admit that they need universal healthcare in order to maintain the 
herd.  (Of course, as we see with industrial farms, that can go horribly wrong 
... but the Thiels don't care anymore about their herd than the industrial 
ranchers care about theirs.  So, the analogy still holds.)  It benefits the 
vampires to cultivate a herd with the patina of "self governance".  That way 
they can tell the unfortunate members of the herd that their suffering is their 
own fault.  Work harder.  Be a better cow.


On 01/03/2017 07:05 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Some that suffer from microcephaly life to be 30-35 years!  

--
☣ glen


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents

[glen ☣]

Well, again, the Thiel-as-vampire metaphor would argue that it's not in the 
best interests of the libertarians to grow a herd of people completely unable 
to take care of themselves.  If the cattle is too dependent, then they'd be 
forced to admit that they need universal healthcare in order to maintain the 
herd.  (Of course, as we see with industrial farms, that can go horribly wrong 
... but the Thiels don't care anymore about their herd than the industrial 
ranchers care about theirs.  So, the analogy still holds.)  It benefits the 
vampires to cultivate a herd with the patina of "self governance".  That way 
they can tell the unfortunate members of the herd that their suffering is their 
own fault.  Work harder.  Be a better cow.


On 01/03/2017 07:05 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Some that suffer from microcephaly life to be 30-35 years!  

-- 
☣ glen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents

[Marcus Daniels]

Some that suffer from microcephaly life to be 30-35 years!  

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of gepr
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2017 4:31 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents

Naa.  As the essay argues, Thiel's ilk trusts that those people are more like 
cattle. Big families keep the labor pool stocked and keep plenty of fresh blood 
available for the vampires' life-extending transfusions. There's no need for 
universal healthcare because we only need the human commodity while they're 
young (for blood or labor). To people like Thiel, old people who haven't 
established their ongoing worth to society need to be mitigated and dealt with 
as efficiently as possible.



On January 2, 2017 10:47:42 AM PST, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>If the Affordable Care Act is repealed, then perhaps the demographics 
>that tend to have big families will be afraid to have children due to
>Zika as they won't be able to afford the vaccine?   And in turn their
>voting base will collapse?   


--
⛧glen⛧


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Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents

[gepr]

Naa.  As the essay argues, Thiel's ilk trusts that those people are more like 
cattle. Big families keep the labor pool stocked and keep plenty of fresh blood 
available for the vampires' life-extending transfusions. There's no need for 
universal healthcare because we only need the human commodity while they're 
young (for blood or labor). To people like Thiel, old people who haven't 
established their ongoing worth to society need to be mitigated and dealt with 
as efficiently as possible.



On January 2, 2017 10:47:42 AM PST, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>If the Affordable Care Act is repealed, then perhaps the demographics
>that tend to have big families will be afraid to have children due to
>Zika as they won't be able to afford the vaccine?   And in turn their
>voting base will collapse?   


-- 
⛧glen⛧


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] Political tangents

[Marcus Daniels]

If the Affordable Care Act is repealed, then perhaps the demographics that tend 
to have big families will be afraid to have children due to Zika as they won't 
be able to afford the vaccine?   And in turn their voting base will collapse?   
Exciting biology research funding opportunities by left-leaning Washington 
think tanks?   You've heard of the Oxitec mosquitoes, but did you know they 
have a _whole range_ of configurations?   Follow the money!  Hey, fake news is 
fun!

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2017 10:42 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] Political tangents

It's still politics... but _way_ more interesting:

  Let Them Drink Blood
  https://tni-back-soon.github.io/essays/let-them-drink-blood/index.html

> Alexander Bogdanov, a cofounder of the Bolshevik party and Lenin's one-time 
> rival, was a particularly Thielian figure in the group. In 1905, Bogdanov 
> wrote the science fiction novel Red Star, depicting a communist society on 
> Mars where parabiosis was practiced as a form of mutual aid. Two decades 
> after writing Red Star, Bogdanov founded the State Institute for Haematology 
> and Blood Transfusions. He subjected himself to these transfusions, and died 
> from a botched trial--a fitting metaphor for a revolutionary killed by his 
> own "fanatical and superstitious belief in the miraculous power of their 
> social sciences." 


--
☣ glen


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[FRIAM] Political tangents

[glen ☣]

It's still politics... but _way_ more interesting:

  Let Them Drink Blood
  https://tni-back-soon.github.io/essays/let-them-drink-blood/index.html

> Alexander Bogdanov, a cofounder of the Bolshevik party and Lenin's one-time 
> rival, was a particularly Thielian figure in the group. In 1905, Bogdanov 
> wrote the science fiction novel Red Star, depicting a communist society on 
> Mars where parabiosis was practiced as a form of mutual aid. Two decades 
> after writing Red Star, Bogdanov founded the State Institute for Haematology 
> and Blood Transfusions. He subjected himself to these transfusions, and died 
> from a botched trial--a fitting metaphor for a revolutionary killed by his 
> own "fanatical and superstitious belief in the miraculous power of their 
> social sciences." 


-- 
☣ glen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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