Re: [FRIAM] Stating the obvious

[Marcus G. Daniels]

Birchard Hayes wrote:
> On Feb 3, 2008, at 1:49 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:
>   
>> Supposing for the moment that is so, it's consistent with the ASP.NET
>> strategy of
>> making the user experience the best for Windows users, and adequate  
>> for
>> everyone else.
>> 
>
> Agreed, but isn't that less than optimal?
>   
Most people use Windows and many people hold Microsoft stock (e.g. 
through their mutual funds), so I'd say consensus is that it's good.   
It's a smart way for Microsoft to use leverage.   It's ridiculous to 
think that any company wouldn't. 

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] Stating the obvious

[Marcus G. Daniels]

Birchard Hayes wrote:
> The inclusion of the System  
> library really ought to be completely superfluous on the client, and  
> may in fact be unnecessary. 
[..]
> The biggest performance hit for JavaScript is dynamic typing, high  
> performance JIT or not.  
Supposing for the moment that is so, it's consistent with the ASP.NET 
strategy of
making the user experience the best for Windows users, and adequate for 
everyone else.

Marcus




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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Stating the obvious

[Birchard Hayes]

On Feb 3, 2008, at 11:16 AM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:
> Indeed `System' is native to Windows, and that fact could be detected
> such that CLI bytecodes could be directed to the native engine on a
> Windows or Mono-based system for fast execution.  Further, Firefox  
> will
> also soon have a high performance JIT for JavaScript.

I still don't trust the MS security model, but could just suffering  
from a knee jerk anti-MS reaction.  The inclusion of the System  
library really ought to be completely superfluous on the client, and  
may in fact be unnecessary.  However, MS has found that many  
developers liberally cut and paste from example code and including  
that library smacks of the old "this web site is designed for, and  
will only work on IE" even if other browsers are supported.   Java  
code also often includes a System library and it has always caused me  
pain when my students include entire libraries that they haven't used  
and thus create bloated, potentially unsecured byte code.

The biggest performance hit for JavaScript is dynamic typing, high  
performance JIT or not.  Once understood, the pitfalls of dynamic  
typing can be avoided.  I feel myself verging on a rant about the  
state of Comp Sci education, so I won't digress.

>> Instead of using Microsoft's Volta, I would suggest using tools from
>> Google Code, http://code.google.com ,
> Google does have GWT, but the difference is that they have a very  
> simple
> toolkit, not all of Java EE, which would be the analogue to  
> Volta/.NET.
> Also Google lacks the very substantial IP in compiler technology that
> Microsoft has.

True, although I still prefer Intel's compiler to that of Visual  
Studio.  I have to concede that Google code may not have been the best  
example of the alternatives.  Their business model has, after all,  
become more advertising focused.

>
>> or Yahoo's developer kits, http://developer.yahoo.com
> You mean Microsoft's.   ;-)

Ha ha ha, I totally forgot about that acquisition - Point taken!


Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong  
reasons.
~R. Buckminster Fuller

    Use of advanced messaging technology does not imply 
   * an endorsement of western industrial civilization *




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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Stating the obvious

[Marcus G. Daniels]

Birchard Hayes wrote:
> The offending line is "using System;" which creates several problems.   
> The first is that this code will only run on Windows and only in  
> Internet Explorer.
That's the innovation.  CLR bytecodes are interpreted on a JavaScript 
interpreter.  For example, the demos they have on the Volta site work 
(http://labs.live.com/volta/samples.aspx) just fine in Firefox, if slowly.

Indeed `System' is native to Windows, and that fact could be detected 
such that CLI bytecodes could be directed to the native engine on a 
Windows or Mono-based system for fast execution.  Further, Firefox will 
also soon have a high performance JIT for JavaScript.
> Instead of using Microsoft's Volta, I would suggest using tools from  
> Google Code, http://code.google.com ,
Google does have GWT, but the difference is that they have a very simple 
toolkit, not all of Java EE, which would be the analogue to Volta/.NET.  
Also Google lacks the very substantial IP in compiler technology that 
Microsoft has.
> or Yahoo's developer kits, http://developer.yahoo.com 
You mean Microsoft's.   ;-)


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Stating the obvious

[Birchard Hayes]

Instead of using Microsoft's Volta, I would suggest using tools from  
Google Code, http://code.google.com , or Yahoo's developer kits, 
http://developer.yahoo.com 
  ; and there are many others.  If you review the code snippets on the  
Volta site you will see the following, which is intended to run on the  
client:

using System;
using Microsoft.LiveLabs.Volta.Html;
using Microsoft.LiveLabs.Volta.Xml;

namespace VoltaApplication1 {
 public partial class VoltaPage1 : Page {
 public VoltaPage1() {
 InitializeComponent();
 }
 }
}

The offending line is "using System;" which creates several problems.   
The first is that this code will only run on Windows and only in  
Internet Explorer.  While it is true that Microsoft has most of the  
business desktops, they are losing their grip on the home market, so a  
growing percentage of users would be unable to use this application.   
The second, and more important problem, is one of security.  The  
System library provides hooks into the operating system and while  
Microsoft has been better about security, this is exactly the sort of  
thing that creates dangerous security flaws.  I can't think of a  
kernel level developer I know that will allow ActiveX content from the  
web on their machines, it is akin to leaving your door unlocked in New  
York City.

These days, IMHO, Web based applications are generally limited by  
bandwidth, network availability, and poor design, rather than the  
capabilities of the browser.

On Feb 3, 2008, at 9:19 AM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:

> Don Begley wrote:
>> Not exactly complexity, but Joe Nocera's take
>> > th&emc=th> on
>> MS/Yahoo is well said.
> But web-based applications are limited by what web browsers can do,  
> and
> how fast they can do it.   As those things improve (e.g. JITed
> JavaScript), Microsoft has their whole technology platform to draw  
> upon:
>
> http://labs.live.com/volta
>
> Meanwhile, they have most of the desktops in the world, and stock that
> performs well...
>
> Marcus
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong  
reasons.
~R. Buckminster Fuller

    Use of advanced messaging technology does not imply 
   * an endorsement of western industrial civilization *




FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] Stating the obvious

[Marcus G. Daniels]

Don Begley wrote:
> Not exactly complexity, but Joe Nocera's take 
>  on 
> MS/Yahoo is well said.
But web-based applications are limited by what web browsers can do, and 
how fast they can do it.   As those things improve (e.g. JITed 
JavaScript), Microsoft has their whole technology platform to draw upon:

http://labs.live.com/volta

Meanwhile, they have most of the desktops in the world, and stock that 
performs well... 

Marcus


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Stating the obvious

[Owen Densmore]

Here's the link:
   http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/02/technology/02nocera.html
.. good article.

 -- Owen


On Feb 2, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Don Begley wrote:

> Not exactly complexity, but Joe Nocera's take on MS/Yahoo is well  
> said.
>
>
> -d-
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[FRIAM] Stating the obvious

[Don Begley]

Not exactly complexity, but Joe Nocera's take on MS/Yahoo is well said.


-d-


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org