Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[Prof David West]

"Beer is my spirit animal" does not confound, it confirms.

There is archeological evidence that beer was the very first human made "food" 
product. In an area just south of the Aral Sea. Detailed analysis of residue on 
storage vessels indicates that the beer was "fortified" with hallucinogens - 
most likely from ergot on the wheat used to brew the beer.

The same evidence indicates the beer was used in "religious" ceremonies led by 
female shamans. It is likely, based on similar circumstances in historical 
times, that people gained some nutrition while taking trips where they would 
likely encounter their spirit animals and other manifestations.

davew


On Fri, Mar 4, 2022, at 11:01 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> but my sign says "Beer is my Spirit Animal"... does that confound things 
> a little?
>
> Beer has food value, food has no beer value (except maybe some fresh 
> baked yeasty bread)!
>
> On 3/3/22 10:38 AM, glen wrote:
>> [sigh] It's not hedonism. Beer is food. Potholes are infrastructure. 
>> If you think food and infrastructure are hedonism, then you've got too 
>> much money. As I said, food, health, shelter, climate, infrastructure, 
>> etc. these things are better foundations for conversation than 
>> whatever nonsense is written on your sign.
>>
>> On 3/3/22 08:55, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> So you think the antifa will care about the actual beer, but just not 
>>> talking about it?   I don't think I agree that everything can be 
>>> boiled down to hedonism.
>>> There are other dimensions of personality (e.g. love of dogs) that 
>>> might bypass other disagreements, but I don't think they are 
>>> universal.  And they are only temporary.  The true contempt is there, 
>>> I think.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 8:49 AM
>>> To: friam@redfish.com
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing
>>>
>>> Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't 
>>> directly engage Russian forces because of the risks associated with 
>>> world war or nuclear war. But I'm too ignorant to play that game at 
>>> that level. My sentiment is the US should just take out that convoy. 
>>> "Bring it on," I guess.
>>>
>>> But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated 
>>> networked in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual 
>>> conferences, eHealth, electronic mental health, meditation apps, 
>>> Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even the righties have been networked by 
>>> things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the problem I'm highlighting 
>>> *has* been delivered on by the internet. But such networking has 
>>> presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared foundation 
>>> between networks.
>>>
>>> The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and 
>>> right in the US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs 
>>> right, much like the ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. 
>>> Ukrainian citizenship, national identity. Now that the internet has 
>>> delivered us ways to perforate abstractions like citizenship and 
>>> nation, we need refined or new ways to re-ground such networks in 
>>> concrete things like food, shelter, health, climate, and infrastructure.
>>>
>>> I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting 
>>> righties at the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, 
>>> I'll be able to ground that interaction in things like beer and 
>>> potholes. But the antifa standing next to me won't be interested in 
>>> talking to the bearded fat trucker about beer and potholes. That sign 
>>> you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is that there's a 
>>> fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer Vienna 
>>> lager. And Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant 
>>> compared to whether she had a good time visiting Paris.
>>>
>>> Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration 
>>> indicates.
>>>
>>> On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>> < We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need
>>>> tactics that unify the geographically/politically *perforated*
>>>> in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist
>>>> citizenhood and such. >
>>>>
>>>> There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and 
>&g

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[Marcus Daniels]

I have had maybe one beer a year for the last twenty years or so.   So much for 
that grounding value.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 11:01 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

but my sign says "Beer is my Spirit Animal"... does that confound things a 
little?

Beer has food value, food has no beer value (except maybe some fresh baked 
yeasty bread)!

On 3/3/22 10:38 AM, glen wrote:
> [sigh] It's not hedonism. Beer is food. Potholes are infrastructure. 
> If you think food and infrastructure are hedonism, then you've got too 
> much money. As I said, food, health, shelter, climate, infrastructure, 
> etc. these things are better foundations for conversation than 
> whatever nonsense is written on your sign.
>
> On 3/3/22 08:55, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> So you think the antifa will care about the actual beer, but just not 
>> talking about it?   I don't think I agree that everything can be 
>> boiled down to hedonism.
>> There are other dimensions of personality (e.g. love of dogs) that 
>> might bypass other disagreements, but I don't think they are 
>> universal.  And they are only temporary.  The true contempt is there, 
>> I think.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 8:49 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing
>>
>> Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't 
>> directly engage Russian forces because of the risks associated with 
>> world war or nuclear war. But I'm too ignorant to play that game at 
>> that level. My sentiment is the US should just take out that convoy.
>> "Bring it on," I guess.
>>
>> But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated 
>> networked in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual 
>> conferences, eHealth, electronic mental health, meditation apps, 
>> Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even the righties have been networked by 
>> things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the problem I'm highlighting
>> *has* been delivered on by the internet. But such networking has 
>> presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared foundation 
>> between networks.
>>
>> The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and 
>> right in the US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs 
>> right, much like the ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs.
>> Ukrainian citizenship, national identity. Now that the internet has 
>> delivered us ways to perforate abstractions like citizenship and 
>> nation, we need refined or new ways to re-ground such networks in 
>> concrete things like food, shelter, health, climate, and infrastructure.
>>
>> I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting 
>> righties at the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, 
>> I'll be able to ground that interaction in things like beer and 
>> potholes. But the antifa standing next to me won't be interested in 
>> talking to the bearded fat trucker about beer and potholes. That sign 
>> you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is that there's a 
>> fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer Vienna 
>> lager. And Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant 
>> compared to whether she had a good time visiting Paris.
>>
>> Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration 
>> indicates.
>>
>> On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> < We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need 
>>> tactics that unify the geographically/politically *perforated* 
>>> in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist 
>>> citizenhood and such. >
>>>
>>> There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and 
>>> that's with the use of air power against Russia's supply lines.
>>> The west is not yet prepared to do that, so it has opted for 
>>> collective punishment.   Yeah, I also read those Meduza articles, 
>>> and clearly there are courageous people in Russia trying to stop all 
>>> this.    Although I must admit when Trump was elected, I thought 
>>> isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia and bring 
>>> them to kneel!    I remember thinking in the early '90s that the 
>>> internet could address the problem you highlight, and it hasn't 
>>> delivered on that at all.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
>>

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[Steve Smith]

but my sign says "Beer is my Spirit Animal"... does that confound things 
a little?


Beer has food value, food has no beer value (except maybe some fresh 
baked yeasty bread)!


On 3/3/22 10:38 AM, glen wrote:
[sigh] It's not hedonism. Beer is food. Potholes are infrastructure. 
If you think food and infrastructure are hedonism, then you've got too 
much money. As I said, food, health, shelter, climate, infrastructure, 
etc. these things are better foundations for conversation than 
whatever nonsense is written on your sign.


On 3/3/22 08:55, Marcus Daniels wrote:
So you think the antifa will care about the actual beer, but just not 
talking about it?   I don't think I agree that everything can be 
boiled down to hedonism.
There are other dimensions of personality (e.g. love of dogs) that 
might bypass other disagreements, but I don't think they are 
universal.  And they are only temporary.  The true contempt is there, 
I think.


-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 8:49 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't 
directly engage Russian forces because of the risks associated with 
world war or nuclear war. But I'm too ignorant to play that game at 
that level. My sentiment is the US should just take out that convoy. 
"Bring it on," I guess.


But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated 
networked in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual 
conferences, eHealth, electronic mental health, meditation apps, 
Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even the righties have been networked by 
things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the problem I'm highlighting 
*has* been delivered on by the internet. But such networking has 
presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared foundation 
between networks.


The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and 
right in the US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs 
right, much like the ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. 
Ukrainian citizenship, national identity. Now that the internet has 
delivered us ways to perforate abstractions like citizenship and 
nation, we need refined or new ways to re-ground such networks in 
concrete things like food, shelter, health, climate, and infrastructure.


I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting 
righties at the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, 
I'll be able to ground that interaction in things like beer and 
potholes. But the antifa standing next to me won't be interested in 
talking to the bearded fat trucker about beer and potholes. That sign 
you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is that there's a 
fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer Vienna 
lager. And Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant 
compared to whether she had a good time visiting Paris.


Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration 
indicates.


On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:

< We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need
tactics that unify the geographically/politically *perforated*
in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist
citizenhood and such. >

There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and 
that's with the use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   
The west is not yet prepared to do that, so it has opted for 
collective punishment.   Yeah, I also read those Meduza articles, 
and clearly there are courageous people in Russia trying to stop all 
this.    Although I must admit when Trump was elected, I thought 
isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia and bring 
them to kneel!    I remember thinking in the early '90s that the 
internet could address the problem you highlight, and it hasn't 
delivered on that at all.


-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's 
somehow "flat" or "surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the 
Meduza link, this story also targets the problem:


https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia

Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the 
"Come Back Alive" charity <https://savelife.in.ua/en/donate/> and 
the similar but anti-violence DAO set up by the Pussy Riot member, 
there needs to be a way to in-group *actual* Russians while 
out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.


https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-
our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews
-12555968

In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they 
point out that there are many Ukrainian "creators" you can support 
directly. Bu

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[glen]

Right. Various rhizomic organizations like scientific groups are debating 
whether to stop collaborating with Russian scientists inside Russia. Just like 
with Aline in Wonderland, cutting off collaborations with them, punishes them 
more than it would ever punish Putin and his Oligarchs. But, especially with 
scientists and youngsters more concerned with fashion than politics, those 
people a) tend to turn a blind eye to politics if it suits them and b) the only 
ones that survive and thrive are those complicit in the regime. We're the same 
here in the states and probably in India and everywhere else. Just the other 
day, JOLT news published a Dear Abbey type response arguing that many of us 
simply don't need to care about what's happening in Ukraine:

https://thejoltnews.com/stories/some-perspective-on-the-war,5200?

Granted, worrying about things you can't control may seem futile. But those of 
us who don't worry enough about things they *could* influence are often more 
sickening than the evil that relies on their apathy ... like all those 
youngsters who won't vote in our next mid-term election, thereby allowing 
congress to fall back under the influence of, if not Trump, then McConnell.

If you're a Russian scientist and you want to collaborate with scientists 
outside Russia, then my advice is Leave Russia. In addition to sanctions, we 
should drastically increase recruitment for all the talent in Russia. Offer 
asylum for artists and LGBTQ and anyone else ... even Aline. Suck them dry. 
Well, OK, we can do without Gerard Depardieu and Steven Seagal ... and I'm 
still skeptical of Snowden. But what the hell, drop the charges and bring him 
back, too ... just don't give him a clearance. 8^D

On 3/3/22 12:13, Sarbajit Roy wrote:

She almost definitely doesn't represent "Russia"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpB721W1l34=1122s

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 4:56 AM glen  wrote:


This video brings home, to me, the inherent conflict with "do what it
takes to ...":

I'm Russian I want the rest of the world to hear me out
https://youtu.be/FUE40mkEYeo

Even though I'm worried she's a plant, she makes the valid point that
things like sanctions don't hurt the ultra wealthy.


--
glen
When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.


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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[Sarbajit Roy]

She almost definitely doesn't represent "Russia"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpB721W1l34=1122s

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 4:56 AM glen  wrote:

> This video brings home, to me, the inherent conflict with "do what it
> takes to ...":
>
> I'm Russian I want the rest of the world to hear me out
> https://youtu.be/FUE40mkEYeo
>
> Even though I'm worried she's a plant, she makes the valid point that
> things like sanctions don't hurt the ultra wealthy.
>
>

.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[Prof David West]

Send the Ukraine a ton or two of gold bullion along with a Rolodex of mercenary 
forces with the ability to acquire black market armaments, perhaps Chinese or 
North Korean in origin. Then sit back and watch. Some care would need to be 
taken that the mercenary forces are not ones that we used in the mid-East or in 
Afghanistan. Bet you could find groups that Russia used in Venezuela or Iraq 
and, by definition, mercenaries are only loyal to the gold.

davew


On Thu, Mar 3, 2022, at 8:48 AM, glen wrote:
> Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't 
> directly engage Russian forces because of the risks associated with 
> world war or nuclear war. But I'm too ignorant to play that game at 
> that level. My sentiment is the US should just take out that convoy. 
> "Bring it on," I guess.
>
> But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated 
> networked in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual 
> conferences, eHealth, electronic mental health, meditation apps, 
> Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even the righties have been networked by 
> things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the problem I'm highlighting *has* 
> been delivered on by the internet. But such networking has presented us 
> with *another* problem, the lack of a shared foundation between 
> networks.
>
> The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and right 
> in the US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs right, 
> much like the ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. Ukrainian 
> citizenship, national identity. Now that the internet has delivered us 
> ways to perforate abstractions like citizenship and nation, we need 
> refined or new ways to re-ground such networks in concrete things like 
> food, shelter, health, climate, and infrastructure.
>
> I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting 
> righties at the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, I'll 
> be able to ground that interaction in things like beer and potholes. 
> But the antifa standing next to me won't be interested in talking to 
> the bearded fat trucker about beer and potholes. That sign you're 
> carrying is irrelevant. What matters is that there's a fantastic 
> brewery just down the street that brews a killer Vienna lager. And 
> Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant compared to 
> whether she had a good time visiting Paris.
>
> Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration indicates.
>
> On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> < We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need tactics 
>> that unify the geographically/politically *perforated* in-group as a 
>> network, not according to artificial nationalist citizenhood and such. >
>> 
>> There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and that's with 
>> the use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   The west is not yet 
>> prepared to do that, so it has opted for collective punishment.   Yeah, I 
>> also read those Meduza articles, and clearly there are courageous people in 
>> Russia trying to stop all this.Although I must admit when Trump was 
>> elected, I thought isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia 
>> and bring them to kneel!I remember thinking in the early '90s that the 
>> internet could address the problem you highlight, and it hasn't delivered on 
>> that at all.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing
>> 
>> OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" 
>> or "surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story 
>> also targets the problem:
>> 
>> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia
>> 
>> Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come 
>> Back Alive" charity <https://savelife.in.ua/en/donate/> and the similar but 
>> anti-violence DAO set up by the Pussy Riot member, there needs to be a way 
>> to in-group *actual* Russians while out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.
>> 
>> https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews-12555968
>> 
>> In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they point out 
>> that there are many Ukrainian "creators" you can support directly. But we 
>> can also support in-group Russians directly, encouraging those who reject 
>> authoritarianism and act

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[Marcus Daniels]

Climate and health issues are written on these signs, and they remain very 
controversial.   And the asphalt industry is getting a massive injection of 
money,
( 
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/19/us/politics/infrastructure-plan-asphalt.html 
) in part because we can't talk about changing (e.g. doubting) our behavior 
instead of doubling-down on the same infrastructure approach.Just try to 
talk to a hedonist about eating cultured meat.
 
-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 9:38 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[sigh] It's not hedonism. Beer is food. Potholes are infrastructure. If you 
think food and infrastructure are hedonism, then you've got too much money. As 
I said, food, health, shelter, climate, infrastructure, etc. these things are 
better foundations for conversation than whatever nonsense is written on your 
sign.

On 3/3/22 08:55, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> So you think the antifa will care about the actual beer, but just not talking 
> about it?   I don't think I agree that everything can be boiled down to 
> hedonism.
> There are other dimensions of personality (e.g. love of dogs) that might 
> bypass other disagreements, but I don't think they are universal.  And they 
> are only temporary.  The true contempt is there, I think.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 8:49 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing
> 
> Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't directly 
> engage Russian forces because of the risks associated with world war or 
> nuclear war. But I'm too ignorant to play that game at that level. My 
> sentiment is the US should just take out that convoy. "Bring it on," I guess.
> 
> But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated networked 
> in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual conferences, eHealth, 
> electronic mental health, meditation apps, Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even 
> the righties have been networked by things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the 
> problem I'm highlighting *has* been delivered on by the internet. But such 
> networking has presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared 
> foundation between networks.
> 
> The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and right in the 
> US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs right, much like the 
> ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. Ukrainian citizenship, national 
> identity. Now that the internet has delivered us ways to perforate 
> abstractions like citizenship and nation, we need refined or new ways to 
> re-ground such networks in concrete things like food, shelter, health, 
> climate, and infrastructure.
> 
> I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting righties at 
> the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, I'll be able to ground 
> that interaction in things like beer and potholes. But the antifa standing 
> next to me won't be interested in talking to the bearded fat trucker about 
> beer and potholes. That sign you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is 
> that there's a fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer 
> Vienna lager. And Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant 
> compared to whether she had a good time visiting Paris.
> 
> Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration indicates.
> 
> On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> < We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need 
>> tactics that unify the geographically/politically *perforated* 
>> in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist 
>> citizenhood and such. >
>>
>> There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and that's with 
>> the use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   The west is not yet 
>> prepared to do that, so it has opted for collective punishment.   Yeah, I 
>> also read those Meduza articles, and clearly there are courageous people in 
>> Russia trying to stop all this.Although I must admit when Trump was 
>> elected, I thought isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia 
>> and bring them to kneel!I remember thinking in the early '90s that the 
>> internet could address the problem you highlight, and it hasn't delivered on 
>> that at all.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing
>>
>> OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" 
>> or "su

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[glen]

[sigh] It's not hedonism. Beer is food. Potholes are infrastructure. If you 
think food and infrastructure are hedonism, then you've got too much money. As 
I said, food, health, shelter, climate, infrastructure, etc. these things are 
better foundations for conversation than whatever nonsense is written on your 
sign.

On 3/3/22 08:55, Marcus Daniels wrote:

So you think the antifa will care about the actual beer, but just not talking 
about it?   I don't think I agree that everything can be boiled down to 
hedonism.
There are other dimensions of personality (e.g. love of dogs) that might bypass 
other disagreements, but I don't think they are universal.  And they are only 
temporary.  The true contempt is there, I think.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 8:49 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't directly engage Russian 
forces because of the risks associated with world war or nuclear war. But I'm too 
ignorant to play that game at that level. My sentiment is the US should just take out 
that convoy. "Bring it on," I guess.

But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated networked 
in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual conferences, eHealth, 
electronic mental health, meditation apps, Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even the 
righties have been networked by things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the problem 
I'm highlighting *has* been delivered on by the internet. But such networking 
has presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared foundation 
between networks.

The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and right in the 
US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs right, much like the 
ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. Ukrainian citizenship, national 
identity. Now that the internet has delivered us ways to perforate abstractions 
like citizenship and nation, we need refined or new ways to re-ground such 
networks in concrete things like food, shelter, health, climate, and 
infrastructure.

I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting righties at 
the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, I'll be able to ground 
that interaction in things like beer and potholes. But the antifa standing next 
to me won't be interested in talking to the bearded fat trucker about beer and 
potholes. That sign you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is that there's 
a fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer Vienna lager. And 
Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant compared to whether 
she had a good time visiting Paris.

Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration indicates.

On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:

< We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need
tactics that unify the geographically/politically *perforated*
in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist
citizenhood and such. >

There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and that's with the 
use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   The west is not yet prepared 
to do that, so it has opted for collective punishment.   Yeah, I also read 
those Meduza articles, and clearly there are courageous people in Russia trying 
to stop all this.Although I must admit when Trump was elected, I thought 
isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia and bring them to 
kneel!I remember thinking in the early '90s that the internet could address 
the problem you highlight, and it hasn't delivered on that at all.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" or 
"surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story also targets the 
problem:

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia

Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come Back Alive" 
charity <https://savelife.in.ua/en/donate/> and the similar but anti-violence DAO set up 
by the Pussy Riot member, there needs to be a way to in-group *actual* Russians while 
out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.

https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-
our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews
-12555968

In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they point out that there are many Ukrainian "creators" 
you can support directly. But we can also support in-group Russians directly, encouraging those who reject authoritarianism and 
act within their own tiny little sphere of influence. Without those rhizomic tendrils of influence into and *with* our in-group 
in Russia, ham

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[Marcus Daniels]

So you think the antifa will care about the actual beer, but just not talking 
about it?   I don't think I agree that everything can be boiled down to 
hedonism.  
There are other dimensions of personality (e.g. love of dogs) that might bypass 
other disagreements, but I don't think they are universal.  And they are only 
temporary.  The true contempt is there, I think.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 8:49 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't directly engage 
Russian forces because of the risks associated with world war or nuclear war. 
But I'm too ignorant to play that game at that level. My sentiment is the US 
should just take out that convoy. "Bring it on," I guess.

But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated networked 
in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual conferences, eHealth, 
electronic mental health, meditation apps, Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even the 
righties have been networked by things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the problem 
I'm highlighting *has* been delivered on by the internet. But such networking 
has presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared foundation 
between networks.

The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and right in the 
US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs right, much like the 
ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. Ukrainian citizenship, national 
identity. Now that the internet has delivered us ways to perforate abstractions 
like citizenship and nation, we need refined or new ways to re-ground such 
networks in concrete things like food, shelter, health, climate, and 
infrastructure.

I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting righties at 
the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, I'll be able to ground 
that interaction in things like beer and potholes. But the antifa standing next 
to me won't be interested in talking to the bearded fat trucker about beer and 
potholes. That sign you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is that there's 
a fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer Vienna lager. And 
Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant compared to whether 
she had a good time visiting Paris.

Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration indicates.

On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> < We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need 
> tactics that unify the geographically/politically *perforated* 
> in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist 
> citizenhood and such. >
> 
> There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and that's with 
> the use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   The west is not yet 
> prepared to do that, so it has opted for collective punishment.   Yeah, I 
> also read those Meduza articles, and clearly there are courageous people in 
> Russia trying to stop all this.Although I must admit when Trump was 
> elected, I thought isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia 
> and bring them to kneel!I remember thinking in the early '90s that the 
> internet could address the problem you highlight, and it hasn't delivered on 
> that at all.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing
> 
> OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" 
> or "surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story also 
> targets the problem:
> 
> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia
> 
> Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come Back 
> Alive" charity <https://savelife.in.ua/en/donate/> and the similar but 
> anti-violence DAO set up by the Pussy Riot member, there needs to be a way to 
> in-group *actual* Russians while out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-
> our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews
> -12555968
> 
> In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they point out 
> that there are many Ukrainian "creators" you can support directly. But we can 
> also support in-group Russians directly, encouraging those who reject 
> authoritarianism and act within their own tiny little sphere of influence. 
> Without those rhizomic tendrils of influence into and *with* our in-group in 
> Russia, ham-handed things like sanctions will simply turn them against us, 
> against what they associate with "democracy", "liberalism&

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[glen]

Yeah, I'm not sure I buy the rhetoric that NATO countries can't directly engage Russian 
forces because of the risks associated with world war or nuclear war. But I'm too 
ignorant to play that game at that level. My sentiment is the US should just take out 
that convoy. "Bring it on," I guess.

But I disagree with you that the internet has *not* facilitated networked 
in-groups. We see such now with remote work, virtual conferences, eHealth, 
electronic mental health, meditation apps, Bandcamp, Patreon, ... hell even the 
righties have been networked by things like Gab and GiveSendGo. So, the problem 
I'm highlighting *has* been delivered on by the internet. But such networking 
has presented us with *another* problem, the lack of a shared foundation 
between networks.

The overlapping, non-intersecting, networks between the left and right in the 
US are founded on an an ungrounded abstraction, left vs right, much like the 
ungrounded abstraction between Russian vs. Ukrainian citizenship, national 
identity. Now that the internet has delivered us ways to perforate abstractions 
like citizenship and nation, we need refined or new ways to re-ground such 
networks in concrete things like food, shelter, health, climate, and 
infrastructure.

I guarantee that if I get a chance to talk to one of the spitting righties at 
the convoy protest planned for Olympia this Saturday, I'll be able to ground 
that interaction in things like beer and potholes. But the antifa standing next 
to me won't be interested in talking to the bearded fat trucker about beer and 
potholes. That sign you're carrying is irrelevant. What matters is that there's 
a fantastic brewery just down the street that brews a killer Vienna lager. And 
Aline in Wonderland's political positions are irrelevant compared to whether 
she had a good time visiting Paris.

Grounding matters, as SteveS' link to adversarial collaboration indicates.

On 3/3/22 08:26, Marcus Daniels wrote:

< We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need tactics that 
unify the geographically/politically *perforated* in-group as a network, not 
according to artificial nationalist citizenhood and such. >

There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and that's with the 
use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   The west is not yet prepared 
to do that, so it has opted for collective punishment.   Yeah, I also read 
those Meduza articles, and clearly there are courageous people in Russia trying 
to stop all this.Although I must admit when Trump was elected, I thought 
isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia and bring them to 
kneel!I remember thinking in the early '90s that the internet could address 
the problem you highlight, and it hasn't delivered on that at all.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" or 
"surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story also targets the 
problem:

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia

Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come Back Alive" 
charity <https://savelife.in.ua/en/donate/> and the similar but anti-violence DAO set up 
by the Pussy Riot member, there needs to be a way to in-group *actual* Russians while 
out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.

https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews-12555968

In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they point out that there are many Ukrainian "creators" 
you can support directly. But we can also support in-group Russians directly, encouraging those who reject authoritarianism and 
act within their own tiny little sphere of influence. Without those rhizomic tendrils of influence into and *with* our in-group 
in Russia, ham-handed things like sanctions will simply turn them against us, against what they associate with 
"democracy", "liberalism", and "the West". We already see this in the rhetoric from our socialist 
lefties, blaming the status of Russian oligarchs on our introduction of neoliberalism after the collapse of the USSR. And we see 
it in the righties at the convoy protests, objectifying "liberals" and blaming them for positions they don't even 
really hold.

These blunt instruments like sanctions are better than, say, bombing Moscow, 
but not by much. They're still too blunt. We won't win the socio-cultural or 
climate war that way. We need tactics that unify the geographically/politically 
*perforated* in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist 
citizenhood and such.

The phrase "hearts and minds" helps, but

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[Marcus Daniels]

< We won't win the socio-cultural or climate war that way. We need tactics that 
unify the geographically/politically *perforated* in-group as a network, not 
according to artificial nationalist citizenhood and such. >

There's a targeted way to stop attacks on Ukrainian cities, and that's with the 
use of air power against Russia's supply lines.   The west is not yet prepared 
to do that, so it has opted for collective punishment.   Yeah, I also read 
those Meduza articles, and clearly there are courageous people in Russia trying 
to stop all this.Although I must admit when Trump was elected, I thought 
isolate the US midwest like the west is isolating Russia and bring them to 
kneel!I remember thinking in the early '90s that the internet could address 
the problem you highlight, and it hasn't delivered on that at all.  

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 7:37 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" or 
"surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story also 
targets the problem:

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia

Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come Back 
Alive" charity <https://savelife.in.ua/en/donate/> and the similar but 
anti-violence DAO set up by the Pussy Riot member, there needs to be a way to 
in-group *actual* Russians while out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.

https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews-12555968

In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they point out 
that there are many Ukrainian "creators" you can support directly. But we can 
also support in-group Russians directly, encouraging those who reject 
authoritarianism and act within their own tiny little sphere of influence. 
Without those rhizomic tendrils of influence into and *with* our in-group in 
Russia, ham-handed things like sanctions will simply turn them against us, 
against what they associate with "democracy", "liberalism", and "the West". We 
already see this in the rhetoric from our socialist lefties, blaming the status 
of Russian oligarchs on our introduction of neoliberalism after the collapse of 
the USSR. And we see it in the righties at the convoy protests, objectifying 
"liberals" and blaming them for positions they don't even really hold.

These blunt instruments like sanctions are better than, say, bombing Moscow, 
but not by much. They're still too blunt. We won't win the socio-cultural or 
climate war that way. We need tactics that unify the geographically/politically 
*perforated* in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist 
citizenhood and such.

The phrase "hearts and minds" helps, but isn't concrete enough.

On 3/2/22 16:04, Steve Smith wrote:
> Glen -
> 
> I really appreciate your outlining this so well.
> 
> It is always easier to imagine that *other people* can magically do 
> things that we know from our own experience that we cannot (or choose not to) 
> do.   I also felt very impotent to do much of anything about Trump's tenure 
> except commit to myself (and encourage other fence sitters) to put aside 
> petty ideals and vote *effectively* against Trump in 2020.   I voted against 
> Trump in 2016 but also Hillary by voting for Green Jill Stein (before I 
> discovered what an anti-vaxxer she is, even as an MD).  I would not have done 
> so if I thought NM could fall to Trump, but if I'd lived in another state 
> where he was a shoo-in I might have also thrown my vote into the "protest" 
> category.  Biden was easier for me than Hillary to accept, even though I'd 
> have chosen any one of about half the big slate in the primaries.  Bernie 
> near the top. I may have talked a few of my more curmudgeonly friends out of 
> voting for a write-in simply because they didn't get Bernie (or Mayor Pete or 
> Tulsi or ...) .   This was one election where the total "popular vote" was 
> important even if it didn't "count" as such.   There were a couple of 
> candidates I'd have had a hard time not passing over in "protest" but not if 
> it was going to change the outcome.
> 
> I do think, however, that gumming up Russia's gears, even if it hits the 
> populace hard is important.   Making the clear, unequivocal statement that 
> Authoritarian Belligerence isn't welcome.   I was shamed by the US under 
> Trump (and Bush for that matter) but did not begrudge my shamers... I did 
> (do) feel responsible for what my country does in my name, even if/though I 
> feel fairly disempowered in most specific ways.
>

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[glen]

OK. I don't disagree with any of that. But I still think it's somehow "flat" or 
"surface" tactics only. Thanks to Tom for the Meduza link, this story also targets the 
problem:

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/02/why-no-mass-protests-in-russia

Similar to the link off Cody's post, where you can send BTC to the "Come Back Alive" 
charity  and the similar but anti-violence DAO set up 
by the Pussy Riot member, there needs to be a way to in-group *actual* Russians while 
out-grouping Putinistas. E.g.

https://news.sky.com/story/food-was-great-unfortunately-putin-spoiled-our-appetites-by-invading-ukraine-tripadvisor-disables-russian-reviews-12555968

In Patreon's takedown notice for the Come Back Alive charity, they point out that there are many Ukrainian "creators" 
you can support directly. But we can also support in-group Russians directly, encouraging those who reject authoritarianism and 
act within their own tiny little sphere of influence. Without those rhizomic tendrils of influence into and *with* our in-group 
in Russia, ham-handed things like sanctions will simply turn them against us, against what they associate with 
"democracy", "liberalism", and "the West". We already see this in the rhetoric from our socialist 
lefties, blaming the status of Russian oligarchs on our introduction of neoliberalism after the collapse of the USSR. And we see 
it in the righties at the convoy protests, objectifying "liberals" and blaming them for positions they don't even 
really hold.

These blunt instruments like sanctions are better than, say, bombing Moscow, 
but not by much. They're still too blunt. We won't win the socio-cultural or 
climate war that way. We need tactics that unify the geographically/politically 
*perforated* in-group as a network, not according to artificial nationalist 
citizenhood and such.

The phrase "hearts and minds" helps, but isn't concrete enough.

On 3/2/22 16:04, Steve Smith wrote:

Glen -

I really appreciate your outlining this so well.

It is always easier to imagine that *other people* can magically do things that we know from our own experience that we cannot (or choose not to) do.   I also felt very impotent to do much of anything about Trump's tenure except commit to myself (and encourage other fence sitters) to put aside petty ideals and vote *effectively* against Trump in 2020.   I voted against Trump in 2016 but also Hillary by voting for Green Jill Stein (before I discovered what an anti-vaxxer she is, even as an MD).  I would not have done so if I thought NM could fall to Trump, but if I'd lived in another state where he was a shoo-in I might have also thrown my vote into the "protest" category.  Biden was easier for me than Hillary to accept, even though I'd have chosen any one of about half the big slate in the primaries.  Bernie near the top. I may have talked a few of my more curmudgeonly friends out of voting for a write-in simply because they didn't get Bernie (or Mayor Pete or Tulsi or ...) 
.   This was one election where the total "popular vote" was important even if it didn't "count" as such.   There were a couple of candidates I'd have had a hard time not passing over in "protest" but not if it was going to change the outcome.


I do think, however, that gumming up Russia's gears, even if it hits the 
populace hard is important.   Making the clear, unequivocal statement that 
Authoritarian Belligerence isn't welcome.   I was shamed by the US under Trump 
(and Bush for that matter) but did not begrudge my shamers... I did (do) feel 
responsible for what my country does in my name, even if/though I feel fairly 
disempowered in most specific ways.

I doubt that the Russian citizenry is suffering any more than the Ukranian 
citizenry, and insomuch as many of them are friends/family, there are surely 
things *they* can do to help Ukrainians that is hard for the likes of you or me 
to do.  That doesn't mean I shouldn't try, though I do moderate that by the 
myriad *other* things i should be doing both domestic and foreign with my 
first-world privilege.

If we can make it out the other side of this without a devastating (or even 
trivial but earthshaking) nuclear exchange, I hope it leads to many rethinking 
the size of the world's nuclear stockpile.   I just saw a headline that implied 
that Belarus was going to host some of Russia's nukes.  It was *the right 
thing* for Ukraine to give up the nukes on it's soil at the end of cold war, 
but imagine how things would look (better or worse) if Russia knew that Ukraine 
held a handful of nukes? Time to disarm ourselves...

-Steve


This video brings home, to me, the inherent conflict with "do what it takes to 
...":

I'm Russian I want the rest of the world to hear me out
https://youtu.be/FUE40mkEYeo

Even though I'm worried she's a plant, she makes the valid point that things like sanctions 
don't hurt the ultra wealthy. And in a country where the elections really are rigged 

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[Marcus Daniels]

Something like this would be handy in the current situation.

https://newatlas.com/boeing-f16-jet-unmanned-drone/29203

But really, if we can send munitions, it seems no different to announce that 
Ukraine has a set of Hellfire-equipped MQ-9 Reaper's on loan.   Just ignore 
that USAF sticker.  

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 4:04 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] war footing

Glen -

I really appreciate your outlining this so well.

It is always easier to imagine that *other people* can magically do things that 
we know from our own experience that we cannot (or choose not to) do.   I also 
felt very impotent to do much of anything about Trump's tenure except commit to 
myself (and encourage other fence
sitters) to put aside petty ideals and vote *effectively* against Trump in 
2020.   I voted against Trump in 2016 but also Hillary by voting for Green Jill 
Stein (before I discovered what an anti-vaxxer she is, even as an MD).  I would 
not have done so if I thought NM could fall to Trump, but if I'd lived in 
another state where he was a shoo-in I might have also thrown my vote into the 
"protest" category.  Biden was easier for me than Hillary to accept, even 
though I'd have chosen any one of about half the big slate in the primaries.  
Bernie near the top. I may have talked a few of my more curmudgeonly friends 
out of voting for a write-in simply because they didn't get Bernie (or Mayor 
Pete or Tulsi or ...) .   This was one election where the total "popular vote" 
was important even if it didn't "count" as such.   There were a couple of 
candidates I'd have had a hard time not passing over in "protest" but not if it 
was going to change the outcome.

I do think, however, that gumming up Russia's gears, even if it hits the 
populace hard is important.   Making the clear, unequivocal statement that 
Authoritarian Belligerence isn't welcome.   I was shamed by the US under Trump 
(and Bush for that matter) but did not begrudge my shamers... I did (do) feel 
responsible for what my country does in my name, even if/though I feel fairly 
disempowered in most specific ways.

I doubt that the Russian citizenry is suffering any more than the Ukranian 
citizenry, and insomuch as many of them are friends/family, there are surely 
things *they* can do to help Ukrainians that is hard for the likes of you or me 
to do.  That doesn't mean I shouldn't try, though I do moderate that by the 
myriad *other* things i should be doing both domestic and foreign with my 
first-world privilege.

If we can make it out the other side of this without a devastating (or even 
trivial but earthshaking) nuclear exchange, I hope it leads to many rethinking 
the size of the world's nuclear stockpile.   I just saw a headline that implied 
that Belarus was going to host some of Russia's nukes.  It was *the right 
thing* for Ukraine to give up the nukes on it's soil at the end of cold war, 
but imagine how things would look (better or worse) if Russia knew that Ukraine 
held a handful of nukes? Time to disarm ourselves...

-Steve

> This video brings home, to me, the inherent conflict with "do what it 
> takes to ...":
>
> I'm Russian I want the rest of the world to hear me out 
> https://youtu.be/FUE40mkEYeo
>
> Even though I'm worried she's a plant, she makes the valid point that 
> things like sanctions don't hurt the ultra wealthy. And in a country 
> where the elections really are rigged (or you're young enough to have 
> had no way to intervene before the gravity well became inescapable), 
> what does it mean to "do what it takes to ..."? The last number I 
> heard was Russian authorities arrested 2700 protesters. And given guys 
> like Magomed Tushayev 
> <https://www.jpost.com/international/article-699032>, the gods only 
> know what else has happened.
>
> I mean, I felt pretty impotent with Trump as President. And I'm a 
> relatively well-off white male in a relatively trustworthy democracy.
> What hope do those fed up with Putin and his government have? Only the 
> hopes of coming years, if not decades of poverty, protesting, and 
> bearing the risk of dying in jail or at the hands of a Tushayev?
>
>
> On 3/2/22 14:59, Steve Smith wrote:
>>
>> I like to hope that the net effect of Putin's nonsense on the heels 
>> of Trump's nonsense is that everyone else might actually get fed 
>> up with Authoritarian capriciousness and do what it takes to shove it 
>> out the airlock and get on with our lives w/o so much of the toxic 
>> something-ulinity.
>>
>

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/

Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[Steve Smith]

Glen -

I really appreciate your outlining this so well.

It is always easier to imagine that *other people* can magically do 
things that we know from our own experience that we cannot (or choose 
not to) do.   I also felt very impotent to do much of anything about 
Trump's tenure except commit to myself (and encourage other fence 
sitters) to put aside petty ideals and vote *effectively* against Trump 
in 2020.   I voted against Trump in 2016 but also Hillary by voting for 
Green Jill Stein (before I discovered what an anti-vaxxer she is, even 
as an MD).  I would not have done so if I thought NM could fall to 
Trump, but if I'd lived in another state where he was a shoo-in I might 
have also thrown my vote into the "protest" category.  Biden was easier 
for me than Hillary to accept, even though I'd have chosen any one of 
about half the big slate in the primaries.  Bernie near the top. I may 
have talked a few of my more curmudgeonly friends out of voting for a 
write-in simply because they didn't get Bernie (or Mayor Pete or Tulsi 
or ...) .   This was one election where the total "popular vote" was 
important even if it didn't "count" as such.   There were a couple of 
candidates I'd have had a hard time not passing over in "protest" but 
not if it was going to change the outcome.


I do think, however, that gumming up Russia's gears, even if it hits the 
populace hard is important.   Making the clear, unequivocal statement 
that Authoritarian Belligerence isn't welcome.   I was shamed by the US 
under Trump (and Bush for that matter) but did not begrudge my 
shamers... I did (do) feel responsible for what my country does in my 
name, even if/though I feel fairly disempowered in most specific ways.


I doubt that the Russian citizenry is suffering any more than the 
Ukranian citizenry, and insomuch as many of them are friends/family, 
there are surely things *they* can do to help Ukrainians that is hard 
for the likes of you or me to do.  That doesn't mean I shouldn't try, 
though I do moderate that by the myriad *other* things i should be doing 
both domestic and foreign with my first-world privilege.


If we can make it out the other side of this without a devastating (or 
even trivial but earthshaking) nuclear exchange, I hope it leads to many 
rethinking the size of the world's nuclear stockpile.   I just saw a 
headline that implied that Belarus was going to host some of Russia's 
nukes.  It was *the right thing* for Ukraine to give up the nukes on 
it's soil at the end of cold war, but imagine how things would look 
(better or worse) if Russia knew that Ukraine held a handful of nukes?   
Time to disarm ourselves...


-Steve

This video brings home, to me, the inherent conflict with "do what it 
takes to ...":


I'm Russian I want the rest of the world to hear me out
https://youtu.be/FUE40mkEYeo

Even though I'm worried she's a plant, she makes the valid point that 
things like sanctions don't hurt the ultra wealthy. And in a country 
where the elections really are rigged (or you're young enough to have 
had no way to intervene before the gravity well became inescapable), 
what does it mean to "do what it takes to ..."? The last number I 
heard was Russian authorities arrested 2700 protesters. And given guys 
like Magomed Tushayev 
, the gods only 
know what else has happened.


I mean, I felt pretty impotent with Trump as President. And I'm a 
relatively well-off white male in a relatively trustworthy democracy. 
What hope do those fed up with Putin and his government have? Only the 
hopes of coming years, if not decades of poverty, protesting, and 
bearing the risk of dying in jail or at the hands of a Tushayev?



On 3/2/22 14:59, Steve Smith wrote:


I like to hope that the net effect of Putin's nonsense on the heels 
of Trump's nonsense is that everyone else might actually get fed 
up with Authoritarian capriciousness and do what it takes to shove it 
out the airlock and get on with our lives w/o so much of the toxic 
something-ulinity.






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Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[glen]

This video brings home, to me, the inherent conflict with "do what it takes to 
...":

I'm Russian I want the rest of the world to hear me out
https://youtu.be/FUE40mkEYeo

Even though I'm worried she's a plant, she makes the valid point that things like sanctions 
don't hurt the ultra wealthy. And in a country where the elections really are rigged (or you're 
young enough to have had no way to intervene before the gravity well became inescapable), what 
does it mean to "do what it takes to ..."? The last number I heard was Russian 
authorities arrested 2700 protesters. And given guys like Magomed Tushayev 
, the gods only know what else has 
happened.

I mean, I felt pretty impotent with Trump as President. And I'm a relatively 
well-off white male in a relatively trustworthy democracy. What hope do those 
fed up with Putin and his government have? Only the hopes of coming years, if 
not decades of poverty, protesting, and bearing the risk of dying in jail or at 
the hands of a Tushayev?


On 3/2/22 14:59, Steve Smith wrote:


I like to hope that the net effect of Putin's nonsense on the heels of 
Trump's nonsense is that everyone else might actually get fed up with 
Authoritarian capriciousness and do what it takes to shove it out the airlock and 
get on with our lives w/o so much of the toxic something-ulinity.



--
glen
When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.


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Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[Steve Smith]

I like this conception, something ill-formed like this has been brewing 
inside of me also.


I thought COVID would be an opportunity to refactor lots of things from 
noticing how much relief wildlife (esp.  whales?) experienced from our 
"cooling our jets" to  making telecommuting a reality for those who have 
no good reason to schlep their bodies (and oversized vehicles) to the 
workplace daily to refactor 2 income homes to 1 or 1.5 income homes.   
But it looks like we are backsliding on all of those if not actually 
making up for lost time?   Maybe the "great Resignation" belies that...


I like to hope that the net effect of Putin's nonsense on the heels of 
Trump's nonsense is that everyone else might actually get fed up with 
Authoritarian capriciousness and do what it takes to shove it out the 
airlock and get on with our lives w/o so much of the toxic 
something-ulinity.


On 3/2/22 10:07 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
I'm thinking that a way to escalate our response to Putin, without 
actually fighting him, is to build a "green war machine".  Start a 
crash project to research, develop, and deliver the technology to 
liberate our european allies from their energy dependencies on russian 
oil and gas.  And everyone else as a side effect.


That this is all stuff that we *cough* should be doing anyway is bonus 
content.  But what we can't seem to do for the "right" reasons might 
be easily done as a way to thwart an enemy who is so 
successfully making himself the most reviled man of our age.


Longer term, the economic effects of the sanctions, the social effects 
of the ukrainian refugee crisis, and the demoralization of watching 
brute force in action are going to hurt our side a lot.  That may be 
Putin's actual endgame for the "operation" while he pretends to be 
Trump.   Better to be doing something positive than to be waiting 
around to see how it turns out.


-- rec --

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Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[Gillian Densmore]

[insert comment about how Wind Turbines don't contribute when it's not
windy here][and a gentle reminder how F'n sexy nuclear is. Now if only we
can get fusion to work without gajillion tons of pressure.]


On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:30 AM cody dooderson  wrote:

> I will have to update my bumper sticker from "Bread Not Bombs" to "Bread,
> Solar Panels, and Wind Turbines Not Bombs."
> I like that idea. The green war approach would benefit everyone a lot more
> than sending in a swarm of weaponized drones.
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022, 10:08 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking that a way to escalate our response to Putin, without
>> actually fighting him, is to build a "green war machine".  Start a crash
>> project to research, develop, and deliver the technology to liberate our
>> european allies from their energy dependencies on russian oil and gas.  And
>> everyone else as a side effect.
>>
>> That this is all stuff that we *cough* should be doing anyway is bonus
>> content.  But what we can't seem to do for the "right" reasons might be
>> easily done as a way to thwart an enemy who is so successfully making
>> himself the most reviled man of our age.
>>
>> Longer term, the economic effects of the sanctions, the social effects of
>> the ukrainian refugee crisis, and the demoralization of watching brute
>> force in action are going to hurt our side a lot.  That may be Putin's
>> actual endgame for the "operation" while he pretends to be Trump.   Better
>> to be doing something positive than to be waiting around to see how it
>> turns out.
>>
>> -- rec --
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] war footing

[cody dooderson]

I will have to update my bumper sticker from "Bread Not Bombs" to "Bread,
Solar Panels, and Wind Turbines Not Bombs."
I like that idea. The green war approach would benefit everyone a lot more
than sending in a swarm of weaponized drones.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022, 10:08 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> I'm thinking that a way to escalate our response to Putin, without
> actually fighting him, is to build a "green war machine".  Start a crash
> project to research, develop, and deliver the technology to liberate our
> european allies from their energy dependencies on russian oil and gas.  And
> everyone else as a side effect.
>
> That this is all stuff that we *cough* should be doing anyway is bonus
> content.  But what we can't seem to do for the "right" reasons might be
> easily done as a way to thwart an enemy who is so successfully making
> himself the most reviled man of our age.
>
> Longer term, the economic effects of the sanctions, the social effects of
> the ukrainian refugee crisis, and the demoralization of watching brute
> force in action are going to hurt our side a lot.  That may be Putin's
> actual endgame for the "operation" while he pretends to be Trump.   Better
> to be doing something positive than to be waiting around to see how it
> turns out.
>
> -- rec --
>
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>

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[FRIAM] war footing

[Roger Critchlow]

I'm thinking that a way to escalate our response to Putin, without actually
fighting him, is to build a "green war machine".  Start a crash project to
research, develop, and deliver the technology to liberate our european
allies from their energy dependencies on russian oil and gas.  And everyone
else as a side effect.

That this is all stuff that we *cough* should be doing anyway is bonus
content.  But what we can't seem to do for the "right" reasons might be
easily done as a way to thwart an enemy who is so successfully making
himself the most reviled man of our age.

Longer term, the economic effects of the sanctions, the social effects of
the ukrainian refugee crisis, and the demoralization of watching brute
force in action are going to hurt our side a lot.  That may be Putin's
actual endgame for the "operation" while he pretends to be Trump.   Better
to be doing something positive than to be waiting around to see how it
turns out.

-- rec --

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