Re: [FRIAM] what is a poor behaviorist (Nick) supposed to do?
Thanks Glen for tucking in. This weather thing (and the garden thing) are eating up all my time. I think I agree with you. Let that be a lesson to you. Nick On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 10:21 AM glen wrote: > Although the Atlantic article has little to do with the C-word, I was > happy to find my point already in it: > > "We struggle enough to see the perspectives of other people;" > > The extent to which we "other" things is a difference of degree, not kind. > This is, again, why analogical thinking is more useful than metaphorical > thinking. I am analogous to both my sibling and my cat. The important point > is not *that* there is an analogy to be made. The important points are the > strength and type (structural and/or behavioral) of that analogy. > > From the PopMech article: "By studying their motivations and > decision-making, we’ll find more ways to manipulate cells, such as > interrupting their processes." > > What they're talking about, in what I think are more useful words, are > high order languages or perhaps "emergent behavior", where things like > "decision-making" are high order processes comprised of low order or > primitive processes. It's often useful to include those macros as > convenient shortcuts for the code that's closer to the metal (or chemistry, > here). But to what extent are those high order operators extant/real such > that they can *cause* effects? ... a causation that's not reducible to > merely complicated causation of the lower orders? > > That's the crux of the argument between those who claim scales of psychism > and those who argue the higher order constructs are different in an > actionable/effective way. > > > On 6/11/24 13:06, Prof David West wrote: > > animals are conscious? The author studies birds as did/does Nick (when > not obsessed with dry lines). > > > > > https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/06/new-anthropomorphism/678611/ > > > > are humans conscious; as well as every cell of their body? > > > > > https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a61059424/every-cell-in-your-body-could-be-conscious/ > > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] what is a poor behaviorist (Nick) supposed to do?
Although the Atlantic article has little to do with the C-word, I was happy to find my point already in it: "We struggle enough to see the perspectives of other people;" The extent to which we "other" things is a difference of degree, not kind. This is, again, why analogical thinking is more useful than metaphorical thinking. I am analogous to both my sibling and my cat. The important point is not *that* there is an analogy to be made. The important points are the strength and type (structural and/or behavioral) of that analogy. From the PopMech article: "By studying their motivations and decision-making, we’ll find more ways to manipulate cells, such as interrupting their processes." What they're talking about, in what I think are more useful words, are high order languages or perhaps "emergent behavior", where things like "decision-making" are high order processes comprised of low order or primitive processes. It's often useful to include those macros as convenient shortcuts for the code that's closer to the metal (or chemistry, here). But to what extent are those high order operators extant/real such that they can *cause* effects? ... a causation that's not reducible to merely complicated causation of the lower orders? That's the crux of the argument between those who claim scales of psychism and those who argue the higher order constructs are different in an actionable/effective way. On 6/11/24 13:06, Prof David West wrote: animals are conscious? The author studies birds as did/does Nick (when not obsessed with dry lines). https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/06/new-anthropomorphism/678611/ are humans conscious; as well as every cell of their body? https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a61059424/every-cell-in-your-body-could-be-conscious/ -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] what is a poor behaviorist (Nick) supposed to do?
As Clinton famously said, it depends upon what you mean by conscious. For this poor Behaviorist, Consciousness is behaving in relation to some feature of your world. Gutta run Certainly birds, and maybe plants. N On Tue, Jun 11, 2024 at 3:59 PM Prof David West wrote: > animals are conscious? The author studies birds as did/does Nick (when not > obsessed with dry lines). > > > https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/06/new-anthropomorphism/678611/ > > are humans conscious; as well as every cell of their body? > > > https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a61059424/every-cell-in-your-body-could-be-conscious/ > > davew > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
[FRIAM] what is a poor behaviorist (Nick) supposed to do?
animals are conscious? The author studies birds as did/does Nick (when not obsessed with dry lines). https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/06/new-anthropomorphism/678611/ are humans conscious; as well as every cell of their body? https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a61059424/every-cell-in-your-body-could-be-conscious/ davew -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
