Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
Heaters/furnaces/burners. They can be electric, either off-site or co-gen, or they can use waste product. However, natural gas is the most common. Ray Parks - Original Message - From: David Mirly [mailto:mi...@comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:26 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? I'm not sure this statement is correct…natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons) I don't think natural gas and crude oil refining typically, if ever, intersect. A crude oil refinery (which, of course, makes gasoline among other things) has only crude oil as it's main input. Now refineries differ from one another greatly in size and capabilities but I have never heard of natural gas being used in the gasoline manufacture process. On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:55 AM, q...@aol.com wrote: Greetings, all -- Gasland is on my list, but in the meantime, I know that natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons) and with natural gas at (artificially?) low prices, our overall cost for refining gasoline in the US is competitive worldwide. We're also the biggest user of gasoline (the fuel mix in other countries focuses more on diesel), which means we have competitively priced refined gasoline in general, and a bit of extra supply in particular at the moment. The annual switchover of winter to summer gasoline has been complicated by some scheduled maintenance and shut-downs at various refineries, leading to a more pronounced annual spike than usual. Oh, and there's the Straits of Hormuz thing... My $0.02, - Claiborne Booker - -Original Message- From: Hugh Trenchard htrench...@shaw.ca To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 10:12 am Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? Thanks for responding. Of course with natural gas, the first thing comes to my mind is Gasland'. But I suppose if some ot those environmental issues can be brought under control, natural gas seems like it will be a big economic driver for a while. - Original Message - From: Joshua Thorp To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? This sounds right to me. There is a lot of finger wagging at Iran for not having domestic capacity for petroleum refinement even though they are a crude exporter. So I guess capacity works both ways. The other thing I know is currently a hot topic is natural gas production. I believe the US has increased its production quite a bit lately and is likely to have a lot more in the future. On Feb 28, 2012, at 8:40 PM, Hugh Trenchard wrote: Just as a brief follow up, it seems to me one of the major factors in this is that U.S. refining capacity has increased so that there is less need to import refined petroleum products. I haven't researched this in any detail and I stand to be corrected on all my assertions, but it seems to me it's not as though there are any new sources of US domestic supply or significant increase in technological ability to extract previously hard to obtain oil, and likely only marginal reduction in demand. There may be some, but my thought is the hype on this is rather misleading. Again I don't have the figures, but my guess is that the vast majority of US crude imports likely still come from Canada, Mexico, and other western hemisphere nations, which the U.S. refining companies refine and re-sell as petroleum products, both for domestic use and to export abroad. The link below shows some of the definitions used in the petroleum/fuels industry. From my skeptical standpoint, the hype could mislead the American public toward a false sense of security. I suppose if it stimulates the economy, then that's good, but if it gets people guzzling more gas, then it's really just a fool's game. http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/TblDefs/pet_move_imp_tbldef2.asp From the link: Petroleum products are obtained from the processing of crude oil (including lease condensate), natural gas, and other hydrocarbon compounds. Petroleum products include unfinished oils, liquefied petroleum gases, pentanes plus, aviation gasoline, motor gasoline, naphtha-type jet fuel, kerosene-type jet fuel, kerosene, distillate fuel oil, residual fuel oil, petrochemical feedstocks, special naphthas, lubricants, waxes, petroleum coke, asphalt, road oil, still gas, and miscellaneous products. - Original Message - From: Russ Abbott To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Cc: Hugh Trenchard Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question
Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
True, refineries use an enormous amount of electricity. But my point was that natural gas is not an ingredient in the production of gasoline itself. If electricity generated by natural gas and then used by oil refineries was the point of the original post then I missed that. At the refinery I worked at, we built a coke gasification unit to generate our own electricity. 40 Mw. On Feb 29, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Parks, Raymond wrote: Heaters/furnaces/burners. They can be electric, either off-site or co-gen, or they can use waste product. However, natural gas is the most common. Ray Parks - Original Message - From: David Mirly [mailto:mi...@comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:26 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? I'm not sure this statement is correct…natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons) I don't think natural gas and crude oil refining typically, if ever, intersect. A crude oil refinery (which, of course, makes gasoline among other things) has only crude oil as it's main input. Now refineries differ from one another greatly in size and capabilities but I have never heard of natural gas being used in the gasoline manufacture process. On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:55 AM, q...@aol.com wrote: Greetings, all -- Gasland is on my list, but in the meantime, I know that natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons) and with natural gas at (artificially?) low prices, our overall cost for refining gasoline in the US is competitive worldwide. We're also the biggest user of gasoline (the fuel mix in other countries focuses more on diesel), which means we have competitively priced refined gasoline in general, and a bit of extra supply in particular at the moment. The annual switchover of winter to summer gasoline has been complicated by some scheduled maintenance and shut-downs at various refineries, leading to a more pronounced annual spike than usual. Oh, and there's the Straits of Hormuz thing... My $0.02, - Claiborne Booker - -Original Message- From: Hugh Trenchard htrench...@shaw.ca To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 10:12 am Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? Thanks for responding. Of course with natural gas, the first thing comes to my mind is Gasland'. But I suppose if some ot those environmental issues can be brought under control, natural gas seems like it will be a big economic driver for a while. - Original Message - From: Joshua Thorp To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? This sounds right to me. There is a lot of finger wagging at Iran for not having domestic capacity for petroleum refinement even though they are a crude exporter. So I guess capacity works both ways. The other thing I know is currently a hot topic is natural gas production. I believe the US has increased its production quite a bit lately and is likely to have a lot more in the future. On Feb 28, 2012, at 8:40 PM, Hugh Trenchard wrote: Just as a brief follow up, it seems to me one of the major factors in this is that U.S. refining capacity has increased so that there is less need to import refined petroleum products. I haven't researched this in any detail and I stand to be corrected on all my assertions, but it seems to me it's not as though there are any new sources of US domestic supply or significant increase in technological ability to extract previously hard to obtain oil, and likely only marginal reduction in demand. There may be some, but my thought is the hype on this is rather misleading. Again I don't have the figures, but my guess is that the vast majority of US crude imports likely still come from Canada, Mexico, and other western hemisphere nations, which the U.S. refining companies refine and re-sell as petroleum products, both for domestic use and to export abroad. The link below shows some of the definitions used in the petroleum/fuels industry. From my skeptical standpoint, the hype could mislead the American public toward a false sense of security. I suppose if it stimulates the economy, then that's good, but if it gets people guzzling more gas, then it's really just a fool's game. http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/TblDefs/pet_move_imp_tbldef2.asp From the link: Petroleum products are obtained from the processing of crude oil (including lease condensate), natural gas, and other hydrocarbon compounds. Petroleum products include unfinished oils, liquefied petroleum gases, pentanes plus, aviation
Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC?
David -- Thanks for your comment. I suppose I should have been both more specific and more vague. It is sometimes an input, not an ingredient. Steam cracking, which sometimes uses LPG, appears not to be necessary for gasoline production, but it is useful for other hydrocarbons. Please excuse my speculations. I have not worked in a refinery, but rather in the refined confines of energy analysis, which may explain some of my inexact language. I welcome all corrections. - Claiborne - -Original Message- From: David Mirly mi...@comcast.net To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 4:10 pm Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? True, refineries use an enormous amount of electricity. But my point was that natural gas is not an ingredient in the production of gasoline itself. If electricity generated by natural gas and then used by oil refineries was the point of the original post then I missed that. At the refinery I worked at, we built a coke gasification unit to generate our own electricity. 40 Mw. On Feb 29, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Parks, Raymond wrote: Heaters/furnaces/burners. They can be electric, either off-site or co-gen, or they can use waste product. However, natural gas is the most common. Ray Parks - Original Message - From: David Mirly [mailto:mi...@comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:26 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? I'm not sure this statement is correct…natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons) I don't think natural gas and crude oil refining typically, if ever, intersect. A crude oil refinery (which, of course, makes gasoline among other things) has only crude oil as it's main input. Now refineries differ from one another greatly in size and capabilities but I have never heard of natural gas being used in the gasoline manufacture process. On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:55 AM, q...@aol.com wrote: Greetings, all -- Gasland is on my list, but in the meantime, I know that natural gas is an input into gasoline refining (cracking the hydrocarbons) and with natural gas at (artificially?) low prices, our overall cost for refining gasoline in the US is competitive worldwide. We're also the biggest user of gasoline (the fuel mix in other countries focuses more on diesel), which means we have competitively priced refined gasoline in general, and a bit of extra supply in particular at the moment. The annual switchover of winter to summer gasoline has been complicated by some scheduled maintenance and shut-downs at various refineries, leading to a more pronounced annual spike than usual. Oh, and there's the Straits of Hormuz thing... My $0.02, - Claiborne Booker - -Original Message- From: Hugh Trenchard htrench...@shaw.ca To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 10:12 am Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? Thanks for responding. Of course with natural gas, the first thing comes to my mind is Gasland'. But I suppose if some ot those environmental issues can be brought under control, natural gas seems like it will be a big economic driver for a while. - Original Message - From: Joshua Thorp To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A Good Question - Should the United States join OPEC? This sounds right to me. There is a lot of finger wagging at Iran for not having domestic capacity for petroleum refinement even though they are a crude exporter. So I guess capacity works both ways. The other thing I know is currently a hot topic is natural gas production. I believe the US has increased its production quite a bit lately and is likely to have a lot more in the future. On Feb 28, 2012, at 8:40 PM, Hugh Trenchard wrote: Just as a brief follow up, it seems to me one of the major factors in this is that U.S. refining capacity has increased so that there is less need to import refined petroleum products. I haven't researched this in any detail and I stand to be corrected on all my assertions, but it seems to me it's not as though there are any new sources of US domestic supply or significant increase in technological ability to extract previously hard to obtain oil, and likely only marginal reduction in demand. There may be some, but my thought is the hype on this is rather misleading. Again I don't have the figures, but my guess is that the vast majority of US crude imports likely still come from Canada, Mexico, and other western hemisphere nations, which the U.S. refining companies refine and re-sell
