Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus
Just noting, I think these are visualizations of fire progressions which means that this is the equivalent of watching an animated radar map (though perhaps less accurate?). We see where the fire was estimated to be after the fact. Not what the fire will do. Amazing to see the scale of the fires on this map. Nice work Cody and the rest of the Simtable team, looks great! --joshua On Jun 17, 2013, at 7:47 AM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Cody, From my point of view this plug wasn’t shameless enough. Each link let to a simulation of one of the fires, but I wondered how these were derived. Before the fact? After the fact? Let it be the case that the Forest Service had a simtable in their response co-ordination center (perhaps they do?). What would have been different. Less shame, please. Nick From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of cody dooderson Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 12:42 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus WARNING this is another shameless SimTable plug. Simtable has been mapping some of the fire progressions. The tres Lagunas fire burned for a while in the pecos watershed but now seems to be completely under control. The Thompson ridge fire is burning slowly through the Valle Caldera, but I can't imagine there is much fuel left considering the massive fire 2 years ago. The Silver Fire, is burning near silver city, in the Gila National Forest. Last but not least, the Jaroso fire burned nearly to the top of Pecos baldy and produced a huge pyrocumulus smoke cloud for one day. It looked like a volcano went off All of the fires seem to be under control after the much needed rains last week. My apologies for the plug Cody Cody Smith On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: Hi Merle -- The bottom line on the news last night is that we're 300,000 acres behind last year's tally with a measly 57,000 acres of fires, and the signs are that the fire season will close early. There are three fires that have been visible from Santa Fe -- Tres Lagunas to the east and Thompson Ridge to the west have been active for more than two weeks. The Jaroso fire only started this week to the northeast and prompted the pyrocumulus discussion. The Thompson Ridge fire sent us smoke one evening, but aside from that it's been easy breathing here in Santa Fe. Hope you're enjoying Bhutan, -- rec -- On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:50 AM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Hi, Merle, Many, although neither Santa Fe nor Los Alamos seems to be at risk at the moment. To keep current go to www.inciweb.org . I am in Massachusetts at the moment, so details will have to come from others. N From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:32 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus Roger Hi, I'm working in Bhutan. Is there a big fire in New Mexico? Merle Sent from my iPhone On Jun 15, 2013, at 12:19 AM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: Here's a pyrocumulus over the Silver fire estimated at 6-7 miles (31-37 thousand feet), though I don't know how he worked out the angles from Wisconsin. http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=81402src=eorss-nh -- rec -- FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus
Roger, After seeing this, I sent a question to the quoted researcher, Scott Bachmeier, about his method for calculating plume height. I asked if it was based on from a single image using sun angle and shadows, multiple offset satellite images or ground triangulation His reply just came in: I was using a Cloud Top Height product derived using POES AVHRR data. Actually, I fear that one of my emails was misquted: I think those numbers referred to the Silver fire on the following day! Here's a NOAA page on AVHRR: http://www.class.ngdc.noaa.gov/data_available/avhrr/index.htm I skimmed the page but don't completely grok how height is estimated from the measurements. -S On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:19 PM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: Here's a pyrocumulus over the Silver fire estimated at 6-7 miles (31-37 thousand feet), though I don't know how he worked out the angles from Wisconsin. http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=81402src=eorss-nh -- rec -- FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus
Searching nasa cloud top height product gets http://modis-atmos.gsfc.nasa.gov/MOD06_L2/ and http://enso.larc.nasa.gov/calipso_cloudsat/pub/journal/Minnis.etal.GRL.08.pdf which suggest that they're reading the temperature of the cloud tops from the IR imagery, and that they calibrated a linear fit between temperature and altitude cloud top using Lidar data from another satellite. Seems like it should be a standard cell phone camera surveying application to compute the angular altitude of an object above the horizon and the range of possible linear altitudes given the range of visible distances along the azimuth. -- rec -- On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Stephen Guerin stephen.gue...@redfish.comwrote: Roger, After seeing this, I sent a question to the quoted researcher, Scott Bachmeier, about his method for calculating plume height. I asked if it was based on from a single image using sun angle and shadows, multiple offset satellite images or ground triangulation His reply just came in: I was using a Cloud Top Height product derived using POES AVHRR data. Actually, I fear that one of my emails was misquted: I think those numbers referred to the Silver fire on the following day! Here's a NOAA page on AVHRR: http://www.class.ngdc.noaa.gov/data_available/avhrr/index.htm I skimmed the page but don't completely grok how height is estimated from the measurements. -S On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:19 PM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: Here's a pyrocumulus over the Silver fire estimated at 6-7 miles (31-37 thousand feet), though I don't know how he worked out the angles from Wisconsin. http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=81402src=eorss-nh -- rec -- FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus
Seems like it should be a standard cell phone camera surveying application to compute the angular altitude of an object above the horizon and the range of possible linear altitudes given the range of visible distances along the azimuth. Scott is working on this very thing :-) Kind of a photosynth for fires, plumes and other citizen-observed phenomena. -S --- -. . ..-. .. ... - .-- --- ..-. .. ... stephen.gue...@redfish.com 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505 office: (505) 995-0206 tollfree: (888) 414-3855 mobile: (505) 577-5828 fax: (505) 819-5952 tw: @redfishgroup skype: redfishgroup gvoice: (505) 216-6226 redfish.com | simtable.com On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: Searching nasa cloud top height product gets http://modis-atmos.gsfc.nasa.gov/MOD06_L2/ and http://enso.larc.nasa.gov/calipso_cloudsat/pub/journal/Minnis.etal.GRL.08.pdf which suggest that they're reading the temperature of the cloud tops from the IR imagery, and that they calibrated a linear fit between temperature and altitude cloud top using Lidar data from another satellite. Seems like it should be a standard cell phone camera surveying application to compute the angular altitude of an object above the horizon and the range of possible linear altitudes given the range of visible distances along the azimuth. -- rec -- On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Stephen Guerin stephen.gue...@redfish.com wrote: Roger, After seeing this, I sent a question to the quoted researcher, Scott Bachmeier, about his method for calculating plume height. I asked if it was based on from a single image using sun angle and shadows, multiple offset satellite images or ground triangulation His reply just came in: I was using a Cloud Top Height product derived using POES AVHRR data. Actually, I fear that one of my emails was misquted: I think those numbers referred to the Silver fire on the following day! Here's a NOAA page on AVHRR: http://www.class.ngdc.noaa.gov/data_available/avhrr/index.htm I skimmed the page but don't completely grok how height is estimated from the measurements. -S On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:19 PM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: Here's a pyrocumulus over the Silver fire estimated at 6-7 miles (31-37 thousand feet), though I don't know how he worked out the angles from Wisconsin. http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=81402src=eorss-nh -- rec -- FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Marcus G. Daniels mar...@snoutfarm.com wrote: On 6/17/13 1:48 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote: Seems like it should be a standard cell phone camera surveying application to compute the angular altitude of an object above the horizon and the range of possible linear altitudes given the range of visible distances along the azimuth. Wouldn't it be necessary in general to do Photosynth and/or have a calibrated fisheye lens? Why? Point the camera at the object in question, if you can get an accurate pose for the camera plane, then the rest is classical surveying geometry and classical optics. Getting a full panoramic image doesn't locate the object of interest any better, just all the objects of non-interest. -- rec -- FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus
Marcus may have meant calibrated pinhole instead of fisheye. This is the approach we're using where we click on points in the photo and then corresponding points in google earth plugin. With 7 points we then solve for the pinhole camera parameters. Or, in the case that the image is from cell phone, we can get the a rough gps location and a focal length from the EXIF meta data. If a custom app is deployed, the compass and gryo can be added to custom fields in the EXIF. To relate two images with corresponding non-planar points, we'll be calculating the fundamental matrix to help with the 3D geometry. More at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_matrix_(computer_vision) And better yet, lyrics and video for the Fundamental Matrix song at: http://danielwedge.com/fmatrix/ On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:47 AM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Marcus G. Daniels mar...@snoutfarm.com wrote: On 6/17/13 1:48 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote: Seems like it should be a standard cell phone camera surveying application to compute the angular altitude of an object above the horizon and the range of possible linear altitudes given the range of visible distances along the azimuth. Wouldn't it be necessary in general to do Photosynth and/or have a calibrated fisheye lens? Why? Point the camera at the object in question, if you can get an accurate pose for the camera plane, then the rest is classical surveying geometry and classical optics. Getting a full panoramic image doesn't locate the object of interest any better, just all the objects of non-interest. -- rec -- FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus
Just in case, here's the photosynth site: http://photosynth.net/ One thing that may be lost in all this is that the fire progression maps are educational tools for incident commanders. History is important. They can scrub the fire's progress back forth to validate their own evaluation of the fire, geography, elevation, wind direction (which would be great to add to the progression maps, btw), fuel type, and so on. -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus
On 6/17/13 2:47 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote: Why? Point the camera at the object in question, if you can get an accurate pose for the camera plane, then the rest is classical surveying geometry and classical optics. Aren't the sensors kind of low resolution and noisy? http://hvrl.ics.keio.ac.jp/paper/pdf/international_Conference/2012/IMV2012.pdf FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus
Looks like Marcus did mean fisheye...cool paper. --- -. . ..-. .. ... - .-- --- ..-. .. ... stephen.gue...@redfish.com 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505 office: (505) 995-0206 tollfree: (888) 414-3855 mobile: (505) 577-5828 fax: (505) 819-5952 tw: @redfishgroup skype: redfishgroup gvoice: (505) 216-6226 redfish.com | simtable.com On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Marcus G. Daniels mar...@snoutfarm.comwrote: On 6/17/13 2:47 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote: Why? Point the camera at the object in question, if you can get an accurate pose for the camera plane, then the rest is classical surveying geometry and classical optics. Aren't the sensors kind of low resolution and noisy? http://hvrl.ics.keio.ac.jp/paper/pdf/international_Conference/2012/IMV2012.pdf FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus
WARNING this is another shameless SimTable plug. Simtable has been mapping some of the fire progressions. The tres Lagunashttp://apps.simtable.com/fireProgression/output2013/NM-N4S-HH9A_%20tres%20lagunas.html fire burned for a while in the pecos watershed but now seems to be completely under control. The Thompson ridge firehttp://apps.simtable.com/fireProgression/output2013/NM-SNF-HJC4_%20thompson%20ridge.html is burning slowly through the Valle Caldera, but I can't imagine there is much fuel left considering the massive fire 2 years ago. The Silver Firehttp://apps.simtable.com/fireProgression/output2013/NM-GNF-HJ20_%20silver.html, is burning near silver city, in the Gila National Forest. Last but not least, the Jaroso firehttp://apps.simtable.com/fireProgression/output2013/NM-SNF-HJ7C_%20jaroso.html burned nearly to the top of Pecos baldy and produced a huge pyrocumulus smoke cloud for one day. It looked like a volcano went off All of the fires seem to be under control after the much needed rains last week. My apologies for the plug Cody Cody Smith On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: Hi Merle -- The bottom line on the news last night is that we're 300,000 acres behind last year's tally with a measly 57,000 acres of fires, and the signs are that the fire season will close early. There are three fires that have been visible from Santa Fe -- Tres Lagunas to the east and Thompson Ridge to the west have been active for more than two weeks. The Jaroso fire only started this week to the northeast and prompted the pyrocumulus discussion. The Thompson Ridge fire sent us smoke one evening, but aside from that it's been easy breathing here in Santa Fe. Hope you're enjoying Bhutan, -- rec -- On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:50 AM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Hi, Merle, ** ** Many, although neither Santa Fe nor Los Alamos seems to be at risk at the moment. To keep current go to www.inciweb.org . I am in Massachusetts at the moment, so details will have to come from others. N ** ** *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Merle Lefkoff *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:32 AM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus ** ** Roger ** ** Hi, I'm working in Bhutan. Is there a big fire in New Mexico? Merle Sent from my iPhone On Jun 15, 2013, at 12:19 AM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: Here's a pyrocumulus over the Silver fire estimated at 6-7 miles (31-37 thousand feet), though I don't know how he worked out the angles from Wisconsin. ** ** http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=81402src=eorss-nh ** ** -- rec -- FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus
Hi, Merle, Many, although neither Santa Fe nor Los Alamos seems to be at risk at the moment. To keep current go to www.inciweb.org . I am in Massachusetts at the moment, so details will have to come from others. N From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:32 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus Roger Hi, I'm working in Bhutan. Is there a big fire in New Mexico? Merle Sent from my iPhone On Jun 15, 2013, at 12:19 AM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: Here's a pyrocumulus over the Silver fire estimated at 6-7 miles (31-37 thousand feet), though I don't know how he worked out the angles from Wisconsin. http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=81402 http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=81402src=eorss-nh src=eorss-nh -- rec -- FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus
Hi Merle -- The bottom line on the news last night is that we're 300,000 acres behind last year's tally with a measly 57,000 acres of fires, and the signs are that the fire season will close early. There are three fires that have been visible from Santa Fe -- Tres Lagunas to the east and Thompson Ridge to the west have been active for more than two weeks. The Jaroso fire only started this week to the northeast and prompted the pyrocumulus discussion. The Thompson Ridge fire sent us smoke one evening, but aside from that it's been easy breathing here in Santa Fe. Hope you're enjoying Bhutan, -- rec -- On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:50 AM, Nicholas Thompson nickthomp...@earthlink.net wrote: Hi, Merle, ** ** Many, although neither Santa Fe nor Los Alamos seems to be at risk at the moment. To keep current go to www.inciweb.org . I am in Massachusetts at the moment, so details will have to come from others. N ** ** *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Merle Lefkoff *Sent:* Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:32 AM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] pyrocumulus ** ** Roger ** ** Hi, I'm working in Bhutan. Is there a big fire in New Mexico? Merle Sent from my iPhone On Jun 15, 2013, at 12:19 AM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: Here's a pyrocumulus over the Silver fire estimated at 6-7 miles (31-37 thousand feet), though I don't know how he worked out the angles from Wisconsin. ** ** http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=81402src=eorss-nh ** ** -- rec -- FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
