Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

Didn't Tessela have steampunk level ideas his coild could charge flying
machines somehow? We have static driven motors already. They lack umpf
though.

On Sat, Dec 24, 2022 at 10:08 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Don't give him ideas. He's gone more off the deep end than usual.
>
> On Sat, Dec 24, 2022 at 11:01 AM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 12/23/22 7:47 PM, Prof David West wrote:
>>
>> Instead of a cable - maybe Tesla’s unrealized broadcast technology? I
>> don’t remember the details but he was going to send power from Long Island,
>> via the ionosphere, to light the world expo in Paris.
>>
>> How could that ever go wrong?
>>
>> What kinds of upgrades do the tinfoil hat crowds need for that?
>> Constantly driving ground spikes and clipping-in to plumbing wherever you
>> go?
>>
>> A little modulation and maybe lightning (aka semi-directed energy) could
>> be weaponized?
>>
>> Musk probably has a plan to integrate this into his Super(Duper) charging
>> network.
>>
>> Forget Jewish Space Lasers, Afrikaaner Particle Beams R' US !
>>
>> HAARP: https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.3032
>>
>> Jet Lightning:
>> https://www.gtri.gatech.edu/newsroom/new-research-will-study-mysterious-effects-gigantic-jet-lightning
>>
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

Don't give him ideas. He's gone more off the deep end than usual.

On Sat, Dec 24, 2022 at 11:01 AM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> On 12/23/22 7:47 PM, Prof David West wrote:
>
> Instead of a cable - maybe Tesla’s unrealized broadcast technology? I
> don’t remember the details but he was going to send power from Long Island,
> via the ionosphere, to light the world expo in Paris.
>
> How could that ever go wrong?
>
> What kinds of upgrades do the tinfoil hat crowds need for that?
> Constantly driving ground spikes and clipping-in to plumbing wherever you
> go?
>
> A little modulation and maybe lightning (aka semi-directed energy) could
> be weaponized?
>
> Musk probably has a plan to integrate this into his Super(Duper) charging
> network.
>
> Forget Jewish Space Lasers, Afrikaaner Particle Beams R' US !
>
> HAARP: https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.3032
>
> Jet Lightning:
> https://www.gtri.gatech.edu/newsroom/new-research-will-study-mysterious-effects-gigantic-jet-lightning
>
>
>
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> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Steve Smith]

On 12/23/22 7:47 PM, Prof David West wrote:
Instead of a cable - maybe Tesla’s unrealized broadcast technology? I 
don’t remember the details but he was going to send power from Long 
Island, via the ionosphere, to light the world expo in Paris.


How could that ever go wrong?

What kinds of upgrades do the tinfoil hat crowds need for that? 
Constantly driving ground spikes and clipping-in to plumbing wherever 
you go?


A little modulation and maybe lightning (aka semi-directed energy) could 
be weaponized?


Musk probably has a plan to integrate this into his Super(Duper) 
charging network.


Forget Jewish Space Lasers, Afrikaaner Particle Beams R' US !

   HAARP: https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.3032

   Jet Lightning:
   
https://www.gtri.gatech.edu/newsroom/new-research-will-study-mysterious-effects-gigantic-jet-lightning


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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[David Eric Smith]

gt;>> I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting 
>>> idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time. 
>>> Would a lot of energy get wasted with the long distances? 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore >> <mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels >> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>> I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would 
>>> enable solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce 
>>> the need to depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise 
>>> #3, so it would be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be 
>>> nice to think there are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably 
>>> there are no such things.
>>> 
>>> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
>>> on behalf of Sarbajit Roy mailto:sroy...@gmail.com>>
>>> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>>>  
>>> What you are missing includes 
>>> 1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
>>> 2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear fission plants
>>> 3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore >> <mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Ok so this is cool and all. 
>>> Sigh I'll ask that question. We want less carbons because the planet is on 
>>> f'n fire <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E>  . As far as I know 
>>> humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this mess 
>>> clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
>>> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as much 
>>> money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute amounts 
>>> of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by product are 
>>> xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created would be a 
>>> massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
>>> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner 
>>> and safer than oil and coal I say) 
>>> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
>>> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just 
>>> arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here. 
>>> Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of 
>>> reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels >> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>> How ICF might evolve into a power plant: 
>>> 
>>>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant 
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ffirstlightfusion.com%2ftechnology%2fpower-plant&c=E,1,6wtVMOWMOkZ5Eb7V7x34PQ4G2bSWUo2FlJ6JotmpHMNvIwMLA4jFckXWlrXKviDmpX55pYuHmztMHXsInhQxKPXcCwXjVgi6PCaT4QvYh3KvSNsC&typo=1>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen >>> <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another day. 
>>>> I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case I 
>>>> only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>>>> 
>>>> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>>>>  
>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flasers.llnl.gov%2fnews%2fmagnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance&c=E,1,35SDv2qnUk3z0NaiI2LADqkCdzlTdnqWQoI0g3fVrfgLbIDLE2lGQpQ4s_KuNZ2FUMMaV8Q5j8b2HW2coPds7ahOiEY3U5w7K319a-iD&typo=1>
>>>> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>>>>  
>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fspie.org%2fnews%2fnuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis%3fSSO%3d1&am

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Prof David West]

Instead of a cable - maybe Tesla’s unrealized broadcast technology? I don’t 
remember the details but he was going to send power from Long Island, via the 
ionosphere, to light the world expo in Paris. 

Davew

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022, at 2:16 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
> Following the conception of a Transatlantic power cable, I just heard on the 
> radio that a couple huge globe-ish spanning electrical-busses are under 
> planning... one that might span from Thailand to Saudi Arabia (through 
> northern India) with Solar (and other renewables?) tapping in along the way 
> and load-shifting E/W with the sunlight and load.   Also maybe one that spans 
> Australia which I believe to be about as wide as the US?   
> 
> Seems like TX's problems stemming from their own (short-sighted?) 
> self-isolation might be good hosts/promoters of such a long-throw?   
> 
> I don't know what it would take to upgrade the national rail system to also 
> be a load-balancing shadow network for renewable electricity?   I assume none 
> of them are electrified (third rail) but maybe laying one, given the 
> pre-existing right-of-way and regular inspection/maintenance/access available 
> would be of interest?   But then maybe our FriAM member who is working on 
> converting natural gas to pneumatic energy-transfer/storage knows more about 
> all those issues?   Hybridized infrastructure across many types?   
> 
> Maybe the existing Diesel-Electric Engines (most of what is on the rail) 
> could tap in mildly to reduce diesel consumption and do their own load 
> leveling?   Fill empty tankers with water at the top of lines (where there 
> *is* water) and carry it to low lying land, extracting the PE from the 
> mass/elevation drop? Reline old asphalt/fuel-oil/etc tankers and provide 
> boutique "Rocky Mountain" (or Cascades) branch-water to the big cities while 
> extracting (maybe) enough energy from the elevation drop to at least pay to 
> haul the damn empties back up the hill?   
> 
>  With me as the big "unintended consequence" chicken-little, I'm sure most if 
> not all of my hare-brained schemes are truly just "asking for trouble", but I 
> think it is inevitable that they will all be considered in the spirit of 
> adjacent-technical-possibles...
> 
> National Railway System: 
> https://www.arcgis.com/apps/mapviewer/index.html?webmap=96ec03e4fc8546bd8a864e39a2c3fc41
> 
>> This fusion video should be the standard for how to present every single 
>> technological innovation, every so-called "renewable energy" device that is 
>> too little, too late, and most importantly distracts us from thinking 
>> seriously about how we shall survive climate catastrophe and continue to 
>> live a flourishing life on earth.  Thank you Carl--I think you sent this 
>> link to the group. 
>> 
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 10:57 AM cody dooderson  wrote:
>>> I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting 
>>> idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time. 
>>> Would a lot of energy get wasted with the long distances? 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore  
>>> wrote:
>>>> frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels  
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would 
>>>>> enable solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce 
>>>>> the need to depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you 
>>>>> raise #3, so it would be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It 
>>>>> would be nice to think there are things just to valuable to destroy, but 
>>>>> probably there are no such things.
>>>>> 
>>>>> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Sarbajit Roy 
>>>>> 
>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
>>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>>>>> 
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement 
>>>>>  
>>>>> What you are missing includes 
>>>>> 1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
>>>>> 2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear fission 
>>>>> plants
>>>>> 3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a 
>>>>> war.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore  
>>>>> wrote:
&

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Steve Smith]

Following the conception of a Transatlantic power cable, I just heard on 
the radio that a couple huge globe-ish spanning electrical-busses are 
under planning... one that might span from Thailand to Saudi Arabia 
(through northern India) with Solar (and other renewables?) tapping in 
along the way and load-shifting E/W with the sunlight and load.   Also 
maybe one that spans Australia which I believe to be about as wide as 
the US?


Seems like TX's problems stemming from their own (short-sighted?) 
self-isolation might be good hosts/promoters of such a long-throw?


I don't know what it would take to upgrade the national rail system to 
also be a load-balancing shadow network for renewable electricity?   I 
assume none of them are electrified (third rail) but maybe laying one, 
given the pre-existing right-of-way and regular 
inspection/maintenance/access available would be of interest?   But then 
maybe our FriAM member who is working on converting natural gas to 
pneumatic energy-transfer/storage knows more about all those issues?   
Hybridized infrastructure across many types?


Maybe the existing Diesel-Electric Engines (most of what is on the rail) 
could tap in mildly to reduce diesel consumption and do their own load 
leveling?   Fill empty tankers with water at the top of lines (where 
there *is* water) and carry it to low lying land, extracting the PE from 
the mass/elevation drop? Reline old asphalt/fuel-oil/etc tankers and 
provide boutique "Rocky Mountain" (or Cascades) branch-water to the big 
cities while extracting (maybe) enough energy from the elevation drop to 
at least pay to haul the damn empties back up the hill?


 With me as the big "unintended consequence" chicken-little, I'm sure 
most if not all of my hare-brained schemes are truly just "asking for 
trouble", but I think it is inevitable that they will all be considered 
in the spirit of adjacent-technical-possibles...


National Railway System: 
https://www.arcgis.com/apps/mapviewer/index.html?webmap=96ec03e4fc8546bd8a864e39a2c3fc41


This fusion video should be the standard for how to present every 
single technological innovation, every so-called "renewable energy" 
device that is too little, too late, and most importantly distracts us 
from thinking seriously about how we shall survive climate catastrophe 
and continue to live a flourishing life on earth.  Thank you Carl--I 
think you sent this link to the group.


On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 10:57 AM cody dooderson  
wrote:


I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an
interesting idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the
earth at any given time. Would a lot of energy get wasted with the
long distances?

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore
 wrote:

frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels
 wrote:

I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.  
That would enable solar power to be distributed around the
world.   It would reduce the need to depend on batteries
for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise #3, so it would
be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would
be nice to think there are things just to valuable to
destroy, but probably there are no such things.


*From:* Friam  on behalf of
Sarbajit Roy 
*Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
        
    *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
What you are missing includes
1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older
nuclear fission plants
3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants
caught up in a war.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore
 wrote:

Ok so this is cool and all.
Sigh I'll ask /that/ question. We want less carbons
because the planet is on f'n fire
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E>  . As
far as I know humans (in the very least) accelerated
climate change. Ie we made this mess clean it up. ok
fair so far I'm following.
So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why
not also put as much money into matter/anti matter as
well as fusion? We can make minute amounts of
antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something
who's by product are xrays gamma and some other 

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Marcus Daniels]

Yikes!  So we must develop an artificial magnetosphere for Mars so that we can 
do it on Earth too?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 16, 2022, at 3:03 PM, Gary Schiltz  wrote:


We humans tend to think of such long-term thinking as silly, frivolous mind 
exercises for the elite educated. I would applaud such thinking. But western 
civilization has trouble with seven generations, let alone seven million 
generations.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 3:21 PM David Eric Smith 
mailto:desm...@santafe.edu>> wrote:
I doubt the answer would be interesting, but one could give it as a Fermi 
problem to an undergraduate geology class (who don’t do Fermi problems; but the 
physicists won’t know any geology).
...
How much, for how long, can we extract, until the inner core grows enough that 
the geodynamo shuts down, ending the Earth’s magnetic field, the van Allen 
belts etc., and exposing the atmosphere directly to spalling by protons from 
the solar wind?
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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gary Schiltz]

We humans tend to think of such long-term thinking as silly, frivolous mind
exercises for the elite educated. I would applaud such thinking. But
western civilization has trouble with seven generations, let alone seven
million generations.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 3:21 PM David Eric Smith 
wrote:

> I doubt the answer would be interesting, but one could give it as a Fermi
> problem to an undergraduate geology class (who don’t do Fermi problems; but
> the physicists won’t know any geology).
> ...
> How much, for how long, can we extract, until the inner core grows enough
> that the geodynamo shuts down, ending the Earth’s magnetic field, the van
> Allen belts etc., and exposing the atmosphere directly to spalling by
> protons from the solar wind?
>
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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

didn't a famous aliens planet explode because they used the core of the
planet for energy use? something about corrupted kryptonian being his
weakness?

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 1:21 PM David Eric Smith 
wrote:

> I doubt the answer would be interesting, but one could give it as a Fermi
> problem to an undergraduate geology class (who don’t do Fermi problems; but
> the physicists won’t know any geology).
>
> Terawatt-scale extraction of geothermal energy will increase the effective
> conduction of heat from the bottom of the mantle (directly or indirectly)
> to the surface, increasing the rate at which the solid inner core grows by
> freezing of the molten outer core.
>
> How much, for how long, can we extract, until the inner core grows enough
> that the geodynamo shuts down, ending the Earth’s magnetic field, the van
> Allen belts etc., and exposing the atmosphere directly to spalling by
> protons from the solar wind?
>
> And you thought the shutdown of the north-atlantic thermohaline was a
> problem!
>
> On Dec 16, 2022, at 2:38 PM, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>
> I do like the microwave energy transmission idea.  I seem to recall that
> https://www.quaise.energy
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quaise.energy&c=E,1,i7KEoFhj8RfmmzQxSzRWIo92uxgI5qwES5F0AiZpxtIaxDFv_9qM1S_k1favS9oro6Wc-xxxdGI9SSqT_pRtOWM7cMDB5qtpDbFM6o789dwKS3l8&typo=1>
>  got
> their first test device from the Air Force in Albuquerque that was
> experimenting with the devices for crowd control.   Think of it!   5G that
> has a high-power beam forming mode that could disable pedestrians at any
> location!
>
> https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1169951
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.osti.gov%2fservlets%2fpurl%2f1169951&c=E,1,ZpWB376zypp1vASQJNnUNSZxvEnVc1oR_uKG_sashcRaqhpd3fAWec8sbN5HbDQwMctWbPfEMFUisetxm287Z4MSW7JV0c-w3G3MtIR_Mp2rEAo,&typo=1>
> Deep Geothermal Drilling Using Millimeter Wave Technology (Final Technical
> Research Report) (Technical Report) | OSTI.GOV - Office of Scientific and
> Technical Information
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.osti.gov%2fservlets%2fpurl%2f1169951&c=E,1,uLydPEGROoddnzr5miKC3sWwQeHYKocEueFbaQ2b4Jr0cNYWPYZz_F5SPKq42zoIyFeZ160raLZr1ggNnst3WsAHD2HdXtvLF0dM50MvSfotwqo,&typo=1>
> Abstract. Conventional drilling methods are very mature, but still have
> difficulty drilling through very deep,very hard and hot rocks for
> geothermal, nuclear waste entombment and oil and gas applications.This
> project demonstrated the capabilities of utilizing only high energy beams
> to drill such rocks,commonly called ‘Direct Energy Drilling’, which has
> been the dream of industry since the ...
> www.osti.gov
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.osti.gov&c=E,1,Vs0igMWwDycX-LB6DUn9MsWHdw7nn37qeanM3zSHyR3uHvRvrYXnzlBxaiFV2cbelqw4ruG3bYHhWldQoMWzDpjaHo-CQgynxBmib8NrVUQ,&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>
>
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quaise.energy%2f&c=E,1,nV9xmDhwgm0p1o-qHiWaeFOEfwER5UlN9Y3Wabfvpk2IYKnJeWWG4Swl2dE635rRGMsbOwdFXea-oSOaEZFyCkKhBfwMfLPEJwKC1lzH6sTK-8ew-SuMtCUY&typo=1>
> Quaise Energy
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quaise.energy%2f&c=E,1,ZVrUGECcu-cXZG9PtFVowPYbS9hJfivfe-YLbI3NgXgl4YjhSpSfJPuKChCYe_LAoH7dDbu4k3Yp4KVkYcVev6Iqp4n-TGRnxwppZF6QWjNdpiZ66e4,&typo=1>
> Quaise is an energy company unlocking geothermal energy for the world
> population through millimeter wave drilling technology.
> www.quaise.energy
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quaise.energy&c=E,1,EoUr194LsLgnmfEzQwxcHXbNHWIBNSCKFysZ92shETogzxdNF3L33zcxJAKPhuRPxbUvUd45WRQLUjJDfRcpCYbOi7JIoqkYLTAzQbJGNQ,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>
> --
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Steve Smith <
> sasm...@swcp.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 11:38 AM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>
>
> On 12/16/22 10:56 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
>
> I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting
> idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time.
> Would a lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?
>
>
> Nikola Tesla is rolling in his magnetically shielded grave hearing all
> this wasteful and under-inspired talk of long-range power transmission
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation.com%2fnikola-tesla-5g-network-could-realise-his-dream-of-wireless-electricity-a-century-after-experiments-failed-158665%23%3a~%3atext%3dHe%2520theorised%2520that%2520electricity%2520could%2celectr

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[David Eric Smith]

I doubt the answer would be interesting, but one could give it as a Fermi 
problem to an undergraduate geology class (who don’t do Fermi problems; but the 
physicists won’t know any geology).

Terawatt-scale extraction of geothermal energy will increase the effective 
conduction of heat from the bottom of the mantle (directly or indirectly) to 
the surface, increasing the rate at which the solid inner core grows by 
freezing of the molten outer core.

How much, for how long, can we extract, until the inner core grows enough that 
the geodynamo shuts down, ending the Earth’s magnetic field, the van Allen 
belts etc., and exposing the atmosphere directly to spalling by protons from 
the solar wind?  

And you thought the shutdown of the north-atlantic thermohaline was a problem!

> On Dec 16, 2022, at 2:38 PM, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
> 
> I do like the microwave energy transmission idea.  I seem to recall that 
> https://www.quaise.energy 
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quaise.energy&c=E,1,i7KEoFhj8RfmmzQxSzRWIo92uxgI5qwES5F0AiZpxtIaxDFv_9qM1S_k1favS9oro6Wc-xxxdGI9SSqT_pRtOWM7cMDB5qtpDbFM6o789dwKS3l8&typo=1>
>  got their first test device from the Air Force in Albuquerque that was 
> experimenting with the devices for crowd control.   Think of it!   5G that 
> has a high-power beam forming mode that could disable pedestrians at any 
> location! 
> 
> https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1169951 
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.osti.gov%2fservlets%2fpurl%2f1169951&c=E,1,ZpWB376zypp1vASQJNnUNSZxvEnVc1oR_uKG_sashcRaqhpd3fAWec8sbN5HbDQwMctWbPfEMFUisetxm287Z4MSW7JV0c-w3G3MtIR_Mp2rEAo,&typo=1>
> Deep Geothermal Drilling Using Millimeter Wave Technology (Final Technical 
> Research Report) (Technical Report) | OSTI.GOV - Office of Scientific and 
> Technical Information 
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.osti.gov%2fservlets%2fpurl%2f1169951&c=E,1,uLydPEGROoddnzr5miKC3sWwQeHYKocEueFbaQ2b4Jr0cNYWPYZz_F5SPKq42zoIyFeZ160raLZr1ggNnst3WsAHD2HdXtvLF0dM50MvSfotwqo,&typo=1>
> Abstract. Conventional drilling methods are very mature, but still have 
> difficulty drilling through very deep,very hard and hot rocks for geothermal, 
> nuclear waste entombment and oil and gas applications.This project 
> demonstrated the capabilities of utilizing only high energy beams to drill 
> such rocks,commonly called ‘Direct Energy Drilling’, which has been the dream 
> of industry since the ...
> www.osti.gov 
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.osti.gov&c=E,1,Vs0igMWwDycX-LB6DUn9MsWHdw7nn37qeanM3zSHyR3uHvRvrYXnzlBxaiFV2cbelqw4ruG3bYHhWldQoMWzDpjaHo-CQgynxBmib8NrVUQ,&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>  
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quaise.energy%2f&c=E,1,nV9xmDhwgm0p1o-qHiWaeFOEfwER5UlN9Y3Wabfvpk2IYKnJeWWG4Swl2dE635rRGMsbOwdFXea-oSOaEZFyCkKhBfwMfLPEJwKC1lzH6sTK-8ew-SuMtCUY&typo=1>
>  
> Quaise Energy 
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quaise.energy%2f&c=E,1,ZVrUGECcu-cXZG9PtFVowPYbS9hJfivfe-YLbI3NgXgl4YjhSpSfJPuKChCYe_LAoH7dDbu4k3Yp4KVkYcVev6Iqp4n-TGRnxwppZF6QWjNdpiZ66e4,&typo=1>
> Quaise is an energy company unlocking geothermal energy for the world 
> population through millimeter wave drilling technology.
> www.quaise.energy 
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quaise.energy&c=E,1,EoUr194LsLgnmfEzQwxcHXbNHWIBNSCKFysZ92shETogzxdNF3L33zcxJAKPhuRPxbUvUd45WRQLUjJDfRcpCYbOi7JIoqkYLTAzQbJGNQ,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
> From: Friam  on behalf of Steve Smith 
> 
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 11:38 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>  
> 
> On 12/16/22 10:56 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
>> I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting 
>> idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time. 
>> Would a lot of energy get wasted with the long distances? 
> 
> Nikola Tesla is rolling in his magnetically shielded grave hearing all this 
> wasteful and under-inspired talk of long-range power transmission 
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation.com%2fnikola-tesla-5g-network-could-realise-his-dream-of-wireless-electricity-a-century-after-experiments-failed-158665%23%3a~%3atext%3dHe%2520theorised%2520that%2520electricity%2520could%2celectricity%2520supply%2520were%2520never%2520realised.&c=E,1,Z78KbArJ6ZyU4lsCH5ZTaAazBlBWFSYCD5BB-tmHwnH6h0KlN-u-rHr15bAjmi0yHDrhOpM_uVTQk6N_VKmFjet3NUjoGL7pnF46-IaCnApO&typo=1>
>  via wires?
> my SF addled brain conjures a snow-piercer 
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.tntdrama.com%2fsnowpiercer&c=E,1,3632M-ARYo

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Marcus Daniels]

Cody wrote:

"I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting idea. 
The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time. Would a 
lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?"

Ideally, high temperature superconductors..

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1177666


From: Friam  on behalf of cody dooderson 

Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 10:56 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting idea. 
The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time. Would a 
lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would enable 
solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce the need to 
depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise #3, so it would 
be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be nice to think there 
are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably there are no such things.

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on 
behalf of Sarbajit Roy mailto:sroy...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

What you are missing includes
1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear fission plants
3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ok so this is cool and all.
Sigh I'll ask that question. We want less carbons because the planet is on f'n 
fire<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E>  . As far as I know humans 
(in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this mess clean it 
up. ok fair so far I'm following.
So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as much 
money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute amounts of 
antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by product are xrays 
gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created would be a massive 
honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner and 
safer than oil and coal I say)
I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just 
arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here. 
Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of 
reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?

On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
How ICF might evolve into a power plant:

  https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen 
mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another day. I've 
got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case I only land 
back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:

https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/

On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium 
remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for 
remaining D vs T.
My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than D-D but 
that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D reactions 
occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I believe the 
ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make sense to have a 
higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal portions.   An equal 
number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume D more quickly, though as 
that commences, the D/T ratio would go down, making D-T reactions (yet) more 
likely...   tricky business, no wonder it has taken decades to get to this 
point?
The Wikipedia Entry on

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Marcus Daniels]

I do like the microwave energy transmission idea.  I seem to recall that 
https://www.quaise.energy got their first test device from the Air Force in 
Albuquerque that was experimenting with the devices for crowd control.   Think 
of it!   5G that has a high-power beam forming mode that could disable 
pedestrians at any location!

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1169951
Deep Geothermal Drilling Using Millimeter Wave Technology (Final Technical 
Research Report) (Technical Report) | OSTI.GOV - Office of Scientific and 
Technical Information<https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1169951>
Abstract. Conventional drilling methods are very mature, but still have 
difficulty drilling through very deep,very hard and hot rocks for geothermal, 
nuclear waste entombment and oil and gas applications.This project demonstrated 
the capabilities of utilizing only high energy beams to drill such 
rocks,commonly called ‘Direct Energy Drilling’, which has been the dream of 
industry since the ...
www.osti.gov

[https://d19xrwp2bu8dt3.cloudfront.net/general/Quaise-link-img1.png]<https://www.quaise.energy/>
Quaise Energy<https://www.quaise.energy/>
Quaise is an energy company unlocking geothermal energy for the world 
population through millimeter wave drilling technology.
www.quaise.energy


From: Friam  on behalf of Steve Smith 

Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 11:38 AM
To: friam@redfish.com 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement


On 12/16/22 10:56 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting idea. 
The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time. Would a 
lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?


Nikola Tesla is rolling in his magnetically shielded grave hearing all this 
wasteful and under-inspired talk of long-range power 
transmission<https://theconversation.com/nikola-tesla-5g-network-could-realise-his-dream-of-wireless-electricity-a-century-after-experiments-failed-158665#:~:text=He%20theorised%20that%20electricity%20could,electricity%20supply%20were%20never%20realised.>
 via wires?

my SF addled brain conjures a 
snow-piercer<https://www.tntdrama.com/snowpiercer> style earth-circumscribing 
rail-line... the pylons can be driven so deep into the earth's crust that they 
are tapped into the earth's inner heat, the rails can be the DC conduit Marcus 
suggests.   There can be as many windmills and tidal turbines placed along the 
line as one feels they need/can-afford/stand-to-see as well as a PV/thermo 
solar continuous collector/shade-roof which can also enhance gradient by 
radiating into the  (2.73-273 deg 
K<https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/153839/what-is-the-temperature-of-the-clear-night-sky-from-the-surface-of-earth>)
 sky at night.   The Snowpiercer rail-cars can move (make them pneumatic or 
evacuated-ballistic (~18mi/sec?)) physical goods and materials continuously...  
 (thank you Elon Musk).  Mount a few Spinlaunch<https://www.spinlaunch.com/> 
units on train units and squirt things into orbit at-will?

Wait, maybe it can become a strip-city modeled on SA's 
"Line"<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Line,_Saudi_Arabia>... at 100 miles 
long and 9million population, the circumferential "line" would be 240 times as 
long and have a carrying capacity of >2 Billion based on their predicted 
precedent.Place three of these orthogonal to one another like an armillary 
sphere<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armillary_sphere> and we are up to 6B?   A 
modest bump in scale (cube root of 1.5) could accommodate 9B!   A few of us 
(DaveW, GaryS, ... myself)  rebellious non-urban renegades could live in the 
remaining landscape NOT covered by these 3 circumscribing strip cities and live 
our lives in the spirit of Sean Connery's character Zed in 
Zardoz<https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070948/>!

Heck, just a nice precursor to Larry Niven's 
Ringworld<https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a11183/could-we-build-a-ringworld-17166651/>
   tell Musk he can keep his claims to Mars... at least until the rest of us 
need the mass to integrate into a proper Dyson 
Sphere<https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a11098/dyson-sphere/>...

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would enable 
solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce the need to 
depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise #3, so it would 
be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be nice to think there 
are things just to valuable to destroy, but prob

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Marcus Daniels]

"This fusion video should be the standard for how to present every single 
technological innovation, every so-called "renewable energy" device that is too 
little, too late, and most importantly distracts us from thinking seriously 
about how we shall survive climate catastrophe and continue to live a 
flourishing life on earth."

After spending the last few months arguing with the locals in Berkeley about 
installing a bike lane, I have come to the conclusion there won't be 
flourishing life on earth.  (Well, ok, I believed that anyway.)  Oddly enough 
the obstacle in that case is one natural produce store that people must visit 
by driving their 200 hp car ½ of a mile.  It is always some lifestyle thing 
that dooms us.  Now imagine trying to connect the state with high-speed rail 
with hundreds of constituencies like that.  We should pay our politicians more.

I do see these in the area, though:

https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/transportation/rivian-amazon-van-expands-to-100-us-cities-by-end-of-2022
[https://assets.aboutamazon.com/dims4/default/496a800/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2000x1000+0+63/resize/1200x600!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Famazon-blogs-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F4d%2F42%2F70dec02640579454676e5159b4f8%2Frivian-hero-2000x1126-2.jpg]<https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/transportation/rivian-amazon-van-expands-to-100-us-cities-by-end-of-2022>
Amazon’s new electric vans will be making deliveries in over 100 U.S. cities 
this holiday season - 
aboutamazon.com<https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/transportation/rivian-amazon-van-expands-to-100-us-cities-by-end-of-2022>
Amazon is ready for its first-ever holiday season with its fleet of custom 
electric delivery vehicles designed by Rivian. Hundreds of the vehicles rolled 
out this summer in more than a dozen cities, including Baltimore, Chicago, 
Dallas, Kansas City, Nashville, Phoenix, San Diego, Seattle, and St. Louis.
www.aboutamazon.com


Marcus

From: Friam  on behalf of Merle Lefkoff 

Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 11:26 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

This fusion video should be the standard for how to present every single 
technological innovation, every so-called "renewable energy" device that is too 
little, too late, and most importantly distracts us from thinking seriously 
about how we shall survive climate catastrophe and continue to live a 
flourishing life on earth.  Thank you Carl--I think you sent this link to the 
group.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 10:57 AM cody dooderson 
mailto:d00d3r...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting idea. 
The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time. Would a 
lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would enable 
solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce the need to 
depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise #3, so it would 
be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be nice to think there 
are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably there are no such things.

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on 
behalf of Sarbajit Roy mailto:sroy...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

What you are missing includes
1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear fission plants
3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ok so this is cool and all.
Sigh I'll ask that question. We want less carbons because the planet is on f'n 
fire<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E>  . As far as I know humans 
(in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this mess clean it 
up. ok fair so far I'm following.
So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as much 
money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute amounts of 
antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by product are xrays 
gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created would be a massive 
honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Steve Smith]

On 12/16/22 10:56 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an 
interesting idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth 
at any given time. Would a lot of energy get wasted with the long 
distances?



Nikola Tesla is rolling in his magnetically shielded grave hearing all 
this wasteful and under-inspired talk of long-range power transmission 
<https://theconversation.com/nikola-tesla-5g-network-could-realise-his-dream-of-wireless-electricity-a-century-after-experiments-failed-158665#:~:text=He%20theorised%20that%20electricity%20could,electricity%20supply%20were%20never%20realised.> 
via wires?


my SF addled brain conjures a snow-piercer 
<https://www.tntdrama.com/snowpiercer> style earth-circumscribing 
rail-line... the pylons can be driven so deep into the earth's crust 
that they are tapped into the earth's inner heat, the rails can be the 
DC conduit Marcus suggests.   There can be as many windmills and tidal 
turbines placed along the line as one feels they 
need/can-afford/stand-to-see as well as a PV/thermo solar continuous 
collector/shade-roof which can also enhance gradient by radiating into 
the  (2.73-273 deg K 
<https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/153839/what-is-the-temperature-of-the-clear-night-sky-from-the-surface-of-earth>) 
sky at night.   The Snowpiercer rail-cars can move (make them pneumatic 
or evacuated-ballistic (~18mi/sec?)) physical goods and materials 
continuously...   (thank you Elon Musk). Mount a few Spinlaunch 
<https://www.spinlaunch.com/> units on train units and squirt things 
into orbit at-will?


Wait, maybe it can become a strip-city modeled on SA's "Line" 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Line,_Saudi_Arabia>... at 100 miles 
long and 9million population, the circumferential "line" would be 240 
times as long and have a carrying capacity of >2 Billion based on their 
predicted precedent.    Place three of these orthogonal to one another 
like an armillary sphere 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armillary_sphere> and we are up to 6B?   
A modest bump in scale (cube root of 1.5) could accommodate 9B!   A few 
of us (DaveW, GaryS, ... myself)  rebellious non-urban renegades could 
live in the remaining landscape NOT covered by these 3 circumscribing 
strip cities and live our lives in the spirit of Sean Connery's 
character Zed in Zardoz <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070948/>!


Heck, just a nice precursor to Larry Niven's Ringworld 
<https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a11183/could-we-build-a-ringworld-17166651/>   
tell Musk he can keep his claims to Mars... at least until the rest of 
us need the mass to integrate into a proper Dyson Sphere 
<https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a11098/dyson-sphere/>...




On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore 
 wrote:


frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels
 wrote:

I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.  
That would enable solar power to be distributed around the
world.   It would reduce the need to depend on batteries for
wind and solar.   Of course, you raise #3, so it would be a
target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be nice to
think there are things just to valuable to destroy, but
probably there are no such things.

*From:* Friam  on behalf of
Sarbajit Roy 
*Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
    *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group

*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
What you are missing includes
1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear
fission plants
3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught
up in a war.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore
 wrote:

Ok so this is cool and all.
Sigh I'll ask /that/ question. We want less carbons
because the planet is on f'n fire
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E>  . As far as
I know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate
change. Ie we made this mess clean it up. ok fair so far
I'm following.
So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not
also put as much money into matter/anti matter as well as
fusion? We can make minute amounts of antimatter in
massive collider. I'd think something who's by product are
xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy
creat

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Merle Lefkoff]

This fusion video should be the standard for how to present every single
technological innovation, every so-called "renewable energy" device that is
too little, too late, and most importantly distracts us from thinking
seriously about how we shall survive climate catastrophe and continue to
live a flourishing life on earth.  Thank you Carl--I think you sent this
link to the group.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 10:57 AM cody dooderson  wrote:

> I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting
> idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time.
> Would a lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would
>>> enable solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce
>>> the need to depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise
>>> #3, so it would be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be
>>> nice to think there are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably
>>> there are no such things.
>>> --
>>> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Sarbajit Roy <
>>> sroy...@gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam@redfish.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>>>
>>> What you are missing includes
>>> 1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
>>> 2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear
>>> fission plants
>>> 3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a
>>> war.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ok so this is cool and all.
>>> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet
>>> is on f'n fire <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E>  . As far
>>> as I know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made
>>> this mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
>>> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
>>> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
>>> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
>>> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
>>> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
>>> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot
>>> cleaner and safer than oil and coal I say)
>>> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
>>> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being
>>> just arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of)
>>> here. Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton
>>> of reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>>>
>>>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>>>
>>> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another
>>> day. I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case
>>> I only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>>>
>>> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>>>
>>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>>>
>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>>>
>>> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>>>
>>> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
>>> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
>>> remaining D vs T.
>>>
>>>

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[cody dooderson]

I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting
idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time.
Would a lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would
>> enable solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce
>> the need to depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise
>> #3, so it would be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be
>> nice to think there are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably
>> there are no such things.
>> --
>> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Sarbajit Roy <
>> sroy...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>>
>> What you are missing includes
>> 1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
>> 2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear
>> fission plants
>> 3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a
>> war.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Ok so this is cool and all.
>> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet
>> is on f'n fire <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E>  . As far
>> as I know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made
>> this mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
>> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
>> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
>> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
>> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
>> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
>> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot
>> cleaner and safer than oil and coal I say)
>> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
>> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just
>> arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here.
>> Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of
>> reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>>
>>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>>
>> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another
>> day. I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case
>> I only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>>
>>
>> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>>
>> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>>
>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>>
>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>>
>> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>>
>> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
>> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
>> remaining D vs T.
>>
>> My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
>> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
>> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
>> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
>> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
>> portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
>> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
>> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no wonder it
>> has taken decades to get to this point?
>>
>> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wi

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would
> enable solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce
> the need to depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise
> #3, so it would be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be
> nice to think there are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably
> there are no such things.
> --
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Sarbajit Roy <
> sroy...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>
> What you are missing includes
> 1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
> 2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear
> fission plants
> 3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
> Ok so this is cool and all.
> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet is
> on f'n fire <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E>  . As far as I
> know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this
> mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner
> and safer than oil and coal I say)
> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just
> arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here.
> Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of
> reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>
>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>
> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another day.
> I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case I
> only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>
>
> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>
> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>
> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>
> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
> remaining D vs T.
>
> My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
> portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no wonder it
> has taken decades to get to this point?
>
> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
>
> I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense
> that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:
>
>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
>
> Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...
>
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1
>
> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions <
> https://www.

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Marcus Daniels]

I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would enable 
solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce the need to 
depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise #3, so it would 
be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be nice to think there 
are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably there are no such things.

From: Friam  on behalf of Sarbajit Roy 

Sent: Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

What you are missing includes
1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear fission plants
3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ok so this is cool and all.
Sigh I'll ask that question. We want less carbons because the planet is on f'n 
fire<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E>  . As far as I know humans 
(in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this mess clean it 
up. ok fair so far I'm following.
So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as much 
money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute amounts of 
antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by product are xrays 
gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created would be a massive 
honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner and 
safer than oil and coal I say)
I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just 
arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here. 
Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of 
reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?

On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
How ICF might evolve into a power plant:

  https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen 
mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another day. I've 
got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case I only land 
back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:

https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/

On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium 
remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for 
remaining D vs T.
My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than D-D but 
that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D reactions 
occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I believe the 
ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make sense to have a 
higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal portions.   An equal 
number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume D more quickly, though as 
that commences, the D/T ratio would go down, making D-T reactions (yet) more 
likely...   tricky business, no wonder it has taken decades to get to this 
point?
The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense that 
this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:
   https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1
https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions 
<https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions>
https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html 
<https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html>
On 12/13/22 4:36 PM, glen wrote:
That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and tritium, 
not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use, you'd track the rarer 
part more closely, right?

On 12/13/22 09:22, Frank Wimberly wrote:
DT = deuterium?

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Sarbajit Roy]

What you are missing includes
1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear fission plants
3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Ok so this is cool and all.
> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet is
> on f'n fire   . As far as I
> know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this
> mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner
> and safer than oil and coal I say)
> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just
> arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here.
> Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of
> reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>>
>>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>>
>> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another
>> day. I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case
>> I only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>>
>>
>> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>>
>> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>>
>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>>
>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>>
>> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>>
>> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
>> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
>> remaining D vs T.
>>
>> My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
>> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
>> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
>> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
>> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
>> portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
>> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
>> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no wonder it
>> has taken decades to get to this point?
>>
>> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
>>
>> I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense
>> that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:
>>
>>
>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
>>
>> Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...
>>
>>
>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1
>>
>> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions <
>> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions>
>>
>> https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html
>> <
>> https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html
>> >
>>
>> On 12/13/22 4:36 PM, glen wrote:
>>
>> That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and
>> tritium, not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use, you'd
>> track the rarer part more closely, right?
>>
>>
>> On 12/13/22 09:22, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>
>> DT = deuterium?
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>>
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 10:21 AM glen > geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole
>> kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?
>>
>>
>> What is "DT"?
>>
>>
>> On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>
>>  > In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE
>> administrators talk:
>>
>>  >
>>
>>  >
>>
>>  > 1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for
>> maintaining symmetry.  Timin

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Frank Wimberly]

I am a longtime proponent of fission for energy.  For a few months in the
late 60s I worked for Westinghouse Advanced Reactors Division.
Specifically I did accident analysis for sodium cooled fast breeder
reactors.  We concluded that a sodium fire was the worst case accident.
For pressurized water reactors (not breeders) the worst case was a rupture
of a pipe which causes a "water hammer".  Meltdown may ruin the reactor but
doesn't threaten the containment vessel except possibly below it (China
Syndrome-a fantastic scenario).

My exposure to these questions occurred almost 60 years ago.  Also, it's
possible that the models we used were incorrect although not by much I
suspect.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 6:22 PM Barry MacKichan 
wrote:

> I am a long-time environmentalist (I think I joined the Wilderness Society
> in the early 60’s) and I opposed fission power plants because of safety
> issues and because of the long-lived waste products. My feeling is that
> even if you make the probability of a screw-up very low, given 10,000
> yearsm *something* will happen.
>
> Now with global warming imminent, I support some fission plants as a
> back-up to solar and wind (and tide, …) generators.
>
> The problem with antimatter is, what kind of bottle will you put it in?
> Also, to make antimatter, you need to put as much (actually more:
> conservation of energy — bummer) into it as you will get out, so one step
> forward, then one and a half back.
>
> --Barry
>
> On 15 Dec 2022, at 16:28, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>
> Ok so this is cool and all.
> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet is
> on f'n fire   . As far as I
> know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this
> mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner
> and safer than oil and coal I say)
> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just
> arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here.
> Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of
> reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>>
>>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>>
>> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another
>> day. I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case
>> I only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>>
>>
>> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>>
>> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>>
>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>>
>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>>
>> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>>
>> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
>> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
>> remaining D vs T.
>>
>> My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
>> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
>> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
>> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
>> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
>> portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
>> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
>> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no wonder it
>> has taken decades to get to this point?
>>
>> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
>>
>> I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense
>> that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:
>>
>>
>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
>>
>> Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...
>>
>>
>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neut

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

Gotcha!
I don't know man. You can swim in the same water used to cool rods because
water  close to the rods blocks neutrons. My concern about  the DOE putting
so many eggs in the fusion basket and ignoring the day to day year to year.
Breeder reactors as a proven reliable start aren't without their own
issues. not the least of witch is the production of weaponizable fissile
materials (:( ) .
And yeah you bring up a good point need something like CERN or the Large
Hagon collider to get even enough raw material to heat a tea cup for 30
minutes.
Do you know if that's something we can over come?
I guess i'm staring in mortified terror that global warming is here.
needing just a few huge changes. I mean don't get me wrong fusion has huge
potential. But at the same time Fission is here. just to get the proverbial
ball rolling it'd be pretty sweet to start with that wouldn't it?

On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 6:22 PM Barry MacKichan 
wrote:

> I am a long-time environmentalist (I think I joined the Wilderness Society
> in the early 60’s) and I opposed fission power plants because of safety
> issues and because of the long-lived waste products. My feeling is that
> even if you make the probability of a screw-up very low, given 10,000
> yearsm *something* will happen.
>
> Now with global warming imminent, I support some fission plants as a
> back-up to solar and wind (and tide, …) generators.
>
> The problem with antimatter is, what kind of bottle will you put it in?
> Also, to make antimatter, you need to put as much (actually more:
> conservation of energy — bummer) into it as you will get out, so one step
> forward, then one and a half back.
>
> --Barry
>
> On 15 Dec 2022, at 16:28, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>
> Ok so this is cool and all.
> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet is
> on f'n fire   . As far as I
> know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this
> mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner
> and safer than oil and coal I say)
> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just
> arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here.
> Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of
> reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>>
>>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>>
>> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another
>> day. I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case
>> I only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>>
>>
>> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>>
>> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>>
>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>>
>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>>
>> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>>
>> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
>> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
>> remaining D vs T.
>>
>> My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
>> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
>> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
>> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
>> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
>> portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
>> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
>> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no wonder it
>> has taken decades to get to this point?
>>
>> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
>>
>> I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense
>> that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:
>>
>>
>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
>>
>> Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusi

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Barry MacKichan]

I am a long-time environmentalist (I think I joined the Wilderness 
Society in the early 60’s) and I opposed fission power plants because 
of safety issues and because of the long-lived waste products. My 
feeling is that even if you make the probability of a screw-up very low, 
given 10,000 yearsm *something* will happen.


Now with global warming imminent, I support some fission plants as a 
back-up to solar and wind (and tide, …) generators.


The problem with antimatter is, what kind of bottle will you put it in? 
Also, to make antimatter, you need to put as much (actually more: 
conservation of energy — bummer) into it as you will get out, so one 
step forward, then one and a half back.


--Barry

On 15 Dec 2022, at 16:28, Gillian Densmore wrote:


Ok so this is cool and all.
Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet 
is
on f'n fire   . As far as 
I
know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made 
this

mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as 
much
money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute 
amounts
of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by 
product are
xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created would be 
a

massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot 
cleaner

and safer than oil and coal I say)
I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being 
just
arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) 
here.
Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton 
of

reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?

On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels  
wrote:



How ICF might evolve into a power plant:

  https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:

Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for 
another day.
I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case 
I

only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:


https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance

https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1

https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/

On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:

I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of 
Deuterium/Tritium
remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting 
for

remaining D vs T.

My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature 
than
D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and 
D-D
reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with 
NIF) I
believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to 
make
sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply 
equal
portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to 
consume
D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go 
down,
making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no 
wonder it

has taken decades to get to this point?

The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion

I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my 
sense

that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:


https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really

Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1

https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions <
https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions>

https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html
<
https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html




On 12/13/22 4:36 PM, glen wrote:

That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and
tritium, not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use, 
you'd

track the rarer part more closely, right?


On 12/13/22 09:22, Frank Wimberly wrote:

DT = deuterium?


---

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz,

Santa Fe, NM 87505


505 670-9918

Santa Fe, NM


On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 10:21 AM glen > wrote:


Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC 
Wormhole

kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?


What is "DT"?


On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:

 > In case no o

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

Ok so this is cool and all.
Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet is
on f'n fire   . As far as I
know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this
mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as much
money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute amounts
of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by product are
xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created would be a
massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner
and safer than oil and coal I say)
I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just
arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here.
Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of
reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?

On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>
>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>
> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another day.
> I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case I
> only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>
>
> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>
> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>
> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>
> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
> remaining D vs T.
>
> My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
> portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no wonder it
> has taken decades to get to this point?
>
> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
>
> I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense
> that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:
>
>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
>
> Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...
>
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1
>
> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions <
> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions>
>
> https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html
> <
> https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html
> >
>
> On 12/13/22 4:36 PM, glen wrote:
>
> That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and
> tritium, not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use, you'd
> track the rarer part more closely, right?
>
>
> On 12/13/22 09:22, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> DT = deuterium?
>
>
> ---
>
> Frank C. Wimberly
>
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
>
> 505 670-9918
>
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 10:21 AM glen  geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole
> kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?
>
>
> What is "DT"?
>
>
> On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
>  > In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE
> administrators talk:
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  > 1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for
> maintaining symmetry.  Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser spatial
> precision of 5e-12 meter were needed. This was thought to be the main
> explanation for the achievement.
>
>  >
>
>  > 2. 8% more power on the laser this time
>
>  >
>
>  > 3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules.
> Developing software to do the counting.
>
>  >
>
>  > 4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and
> their compon

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Marcus Daniels]

How ICF might evolve into a power plant:

  https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:

Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another day. I've 
got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case I only land 
back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:

https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/

On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium 
remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for 
remaining D vs T.
My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than D-D but 
that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D reactions 
occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I believe the 
ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make sense to have a 
higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal portions.   An equal 
number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume D more quickly, though as 
that commences, the D/T ratio would go down, making D-T reactions (yet) more 
likely...   tricky business, no wonder it has taken decades to get to this 
point?
The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense that 
this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:
   https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1
https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions 

https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html 

On 12/13/22 4:36 PM, glen wrote:
That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and tritium, 
not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use, you'd track the rarer 
part more closely, right?

On 12/13/22 09:22, Frank Wimberly wrote:
DT = deuterium?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 10:21 AM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole 
kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?

What is "DT"?

On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 > In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE administrators 
talk:
 >
 >
 > 1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for maintaining 
symmetry.  Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser spatial precision of 5e-12 
meter were needed. This was thought to be the main explanation for the 
achievement.
 >
 > 2. 8% more power on the laser this time
 >
 > 3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules.  Developing 
software to do the counting.
 >
 > 4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and their 
components (done in Germany) to find idiosyncrasies of each.
 >
 > 5. Laser technology improvements since NIF was built which are 20% more 
efficient.
 >
 > 6. Target cost is from labor, and it takes 7 months each
 >
 > 7. 4% of DT is burned in a shot
 >
 > 8. Machine learning ties together radiation hydrodynamics and 
experimental data.   (It sounded preliminary.)
 >
 > 9. The (successful) capsule had more defects than previous experiments.  
 However, previous experiments did show benefits from capsule quality.
 >
 > 10. 15% of experiments are indirect drive of this kind, 15% of 
experiments are other approaches to ignition.  The rest are weapons and 
materials characterization.
 >
 > 11. Anomalous laser directional control were problems in the summer 
runs.   Fixed that.


--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[glen]

Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another day. I've 
got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case I only land 
back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:

https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/

On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:

I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium 
remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for 
remaining D vs T.

My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than D-D but 
that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D reactions 
occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I believe the 
ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make sense to have a 
higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal portions.   An equal 
number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume D more quickly, though as 
that commences, the D/T ratio would go down, making D-T reactions (yet) more 
likely...   tricky business, no wonder it has taken decades to get to this 
point?

The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion

I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense that this 
"breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:


https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really

Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1

https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions 


https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html 


On 12/13/22 4:36 PM, glen wrote:

That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and tritium, 
not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use, you'd track the rarer 
part more closely, right?

On 12/13/22 09:22, Frank Wimberly wrote:

DT = deuterium?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 10:21 AM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

    Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole 
kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?

    What is "DT"?

    On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 > In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE administrators 
talk:
 >
 >
 > 1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for maintaining 
symmetry.  Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser spatial precision of 5e-12 
meter were needed. This was thought to be the main explanation for the achievement.
 >
 > 2. 8% more power on the laser this time
 >
 > 3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules.  Developing 
software to do the counting.
 >
 > 4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and their 
components (done in Germany) to find idiosyncrasies of each.
 >
 > 5. Laser technology improvements since NIF was built which are 20% more 
efficient.
 >
 > 6. Target cost is from labor, and it takes 7 months each
 >
 > 7. 4% of DT is burned in a shot
 >
 > 8. Machine learning ties together radiation hydrodynamics and 
experimental data.   (It sounded preliminary.)
 >
 > 9. The (successful) capsule had more defects than previous experiments.  
 However, previous experiments did show benefits from capsule quality.
 >
 > 10. 15% of experiments are indirect drive of this kind, 15% of 
experiments are other approaches to ignition.  The rest are weapons and materials 
characterization.
 >
 > 11. Anomalous laser directional control were problems in the summer 
runs.   Fixed that.



--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Marcus Daniels]

Steve,

In a way, I have higher regard for MAGA people than NIMBYs.  At least the 
build-a-wall people actually have a wall that must be recognized as such.

Marcus

From: Friam  on behalf of Steve Smith 

Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2022 6:52 PM
To: friam@redfish.com 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement


Responsive to the issue of public funding of science (and advanced technology):

We all know I'm a bit of a Luddite by most measures.   By coincidence I was 
listening (with one ear) to Bill Nye (da Science Guy) give his popular 
hip-hip-hooray for the latest DOE announcement as I read your post here.   He 
nailed *ME* with the perfect alternative descriptor to NIMBY (not in my back 
yard) with BANANA (build absolutely nothing anywhere anything).

I believe it is inevitable that under our current self-conception (all 
humanity,not just US or the Western Nations) it is virtually impossible to 
imagine us doing anything but driving technology forward (roughly) as fast as 
possible, as if to outrun the consequences of our previous actions (and 
out-compete our competitors with similar levels of capability). Singularity 
much?  Evolutionary Biology coined the Red Queen 
Hypothesis<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen_hypothesis> to describe the 
latter but I think of it more as (also) a corollary to the prisoner's *dilemma*.

This Medium 
article<https://medium.com/thinking-is-hard/a-prisoners-dilemma-cheat-sheet-4d85fe289d87#:~:text=When%20you're%20playing%20against,also%20defending%20against%20Always%20Defectors.>
 is a nice pop-sci summary of Prisoner's Dilemma strategies, covering 
*especially* multiplayer games which I think our various tech/arms races are 
implicitly.  The conclusion of the article, author Benson makes the astute 
obvservation:

The most interesting thing is that cooperation has evolved, even if it feels 
impossibly complicated and always on the verge of tipping over into fake 
cooperation (mimicry) and probing (extortion).

And as always, when discussing iterated prisoner's dilemma, Nick, et al's 
MOTH<https://backspaces.net/28/moth-my-way-or-the-highway/> must be referenced.


On 12/13/22 12:04 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
I thought director Budil made a good case for the unique value of public 
funding of science and advanced technology.   Rockets are understood, Musk and 
others can build them.  Decades of investment to do something like this is, it 
is just different.   And they were not timid about mentioning the defense side. 
 Concurrent with the test of a U.S. hypersonic too.  
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/12/12/air-force-conducts-first-operational-launch-of-arrw-hypersonic-missile/

On Dec 13, 2022, at 10:16 AM, Steve Smith 
<mailto:sasm...@swcp.com> wrote:

Great synopsis... thanks.

I'm fascinated at how long we've been "on the cusp" of "lighting up" a 
micro-star in the laboratory.

My first awareness was in the early 70s when a Radio Engineer I worked with had 
just come from the early MFE Livermore efforts to my tiny hometown AM RAdio 
station... He described what they were up to as I was taking my first physics 
course (Junior in HS)... and thinking about the implications both for science 
(as little I knew it) and society (cheap/ubiquitous energy).   Working at LANL 
for 3 decades (starting with the high energy Proton Storage Ring) put me close 
to lots of this as an "educated layman".

I can't say "nothing's changed" but it is mind boggling how long one can "hang 
on the cusp" of something.   Or how quickly we can go from burning coal to make 
steam to drive mechanical devices to replace animal and human (and water and 
wind) labor to lighting up tiny stars for the same purpose.

- Steve

"some days just drag on, but the years they just fly by"


Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole kerfuffle. 
Who knew Quanta was so click baity?

What is "DT"?

On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE administrators talk:


1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for maintaining 
symmetry.  Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser spatial precision of 5e-12 
meter were needed.  This was thought to be the main explanation for the 
achievement.

2. 8% more power on the laser this time

3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules. Developing software 
to do the counting.

4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and their 
components (done in Germany) to find idiosyncrasies of each.

5. Laser technology improvements since NIF was built which are 20% more 
efficient.

6. Target cost is from labor, and it takes 7 months each

7. 4% of DT is burned in a shot

8. Machine learning ties together radiation hydrodynamics and experimental 

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Steve Smith]

Responsive to the issue of public funding of science (and advanced 
technology):


We all know I'm a bit of a Luddite by most measures.   By coincidence I 
was listening (with one ear) to Bill Nye (da Science Guy) give his 
popular hip-hip-hooray for the latest DOE announcement as I read your 
post here.   He nailed *ME* with the perfect alternative descriptor to 
NIMBY (not in my back yard) with BANANA (build absolutely nothing 
anywhere anything).


I believe it is inevitable that under our current self-conception (all 
humanity,not just US or the Western Nations) it is virtually impossible 
to imagine us doing anything but driving technology forward (roughly) as 
fast as possible, as if to outrun the consequences of our previous 
actions (and out-compete our competitors with similar levels of 
capability). Singularity much? Evolutionary Biology coined the Red Queen 
Hypothesis  to 
describe the latter but I think of it more as (also) a corollary to the 
prisoner's *dilemma*.


This Medium article 
 
is a nice pop-sci summary of Prisoner's Dilemma strategies, covering 
*especially* multiplayer games which I think our various tech/arms races 
are implicitly.  The conclusion of the article, author Benson makes the 
astute obvservation:


   /The most interesting thing is that cooperation//has//evolved, even
   if it feels impossibly complicated and always on the verge of
   tipping over into fake cooperation (mimicry) and probing (extortion)./

And as always, when discussing iterated prisoner's dilemma, Nick, et 
al's MOTH  must 
be referenced.



On 12/13/22 12:04 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
I thought director Budil made a good case for the unique value of 
public funding of science and advanced technology. Rockets are 
understood, Musk and others can build them.  Decades of investment to 
do something like this is, it is just different.   And they were not 
timid about mentioning the defense side.  Concurrent with the test of 
a U.S. hypersonic too. 
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/12/12/air-force-conducts-first-operational-launch-of-arrw-hypersonic-missile/



On Dec 13, 2022, at 10:16 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:

Great synopsis... thanks.

I'm fascinated at how long we've been "on the cusp" of "lighting up" 
a micro-star in the laboratory.


My first awareness was in the early 70s when a Radio Engineer I 
worked with had just come from the early MFE Livermore efforts to my 
tiny hometown AM RAdio station... He described what they were up to 
as I was taking my first physics course (Junior in HS)... and 
thinking about the implications both for science (as little I knew 
it) and society (cheap/ubiquitous energy).   Working at LANL for 3 
decades (starting with the high energy Proton Storage Ring) put me 
close to lots of this as an "educated layman".


I can't say "nothing's changed" but it is mind boggling how long one 
can "hang on the cusp" of something.   Or how quickly we can go from 
burning coal to make steam to drive mechanical devices to replace 
animal and human (and water and wind) labor to lighting up tiny stars 
for the same purpose.


- Steve

    "some days just drag on, but the years they just fly by"


Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole 
kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?


What is "DT"?

On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE 
administrators talk:



1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for 
maintaining symmetry. Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser 
spatial precision of 5e-12 meter were needed.  This was thought to 
be the main explanation for the achievement.


2. 8% more power on the laser this time

3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules. 
Developing software to do the counting.


4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and 
their components (done in Germany) to find idiosyncrasies of each.


5. Laser technology improvements since NIF was built which are 20% 
more efficient.


6. Target cost is from labor, and it takes 7 months each

7. 4% of DT is burned in a shot

8. Machine learning ties together radiation hydrodynamics and 
experimental data.   (It sounded preliminary.)


9. The (successful) capsule had more defects than previous 
experiments.   However, previous experiments did show benefits from 
capsule quality.


10. 15% of experiments are indirect drive of this kind, 15% of 
experiments are other approaches to ignition.  The rest are weapons 
and materials characterization.


11. Anomalous laser directional control were problems in the summer 
runs. Fixed that.




-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRI

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Steve Smith]

I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium 
remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for 
remaining D vs T.


My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than 
D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D 
reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with 
NIF) I believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem 
to make sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see 
imply equal portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would 
seem to consume D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio 
would go down, making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky 
business, no wonder it has taken decades to get to this point?


The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion


I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my 
sense that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:


   https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really

Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1

https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions 



https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html 



On 12/13/22 4:36 PM, glen wrote:
That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and 
tritium, not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use, 
you'd track the rarer part more closely, right?


On 12/13/22 09:22, Frank Wimberly wrote:

DT = deuterium?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 10:21 AM glen > wrote:


    Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC 
Wormhole kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?


    What is "DT"?

    On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 > In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE 
administrators talk:

 >
 >
 > 1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for 
maintaining symmetry.  Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser 
spatial precision of 5e-12 meter were needed. This was thought to be 
the main explanation for the achievement.

 >
 > 2. 8% more power on the laser this time
 >
 > 3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules.  
Developing software to do the counting.

 >
 > 4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems 
and their components (done in Germany) to find idiosyncrasies of each.

 >
 > 5. Laser technology improvements since NIF was built which are 
20% more efficient.

 >
 > 6. Target cost is from labor, and it takes 7 months each
 >
 > 7. 4% of DT is burned in a shot
 >
 > 8. Machine learning ties together radiation hydrodynamics and 
experimental data.   (It sounded preliminary.)

 >
 > 9. The (successful) capsule had more defects than previous 
experiments.   However, previous experiments did show benefits from 
capsule quality.

 >
 > 10. 15% of experiments are indirect drive of this kind, 15% of 
experiments are other approaches to ignition.  The rest are weapons 
and materials characterization.

 >
 > 11. Anomalous laser directional control were problems in the 
summer runs.   Fixed that.


-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Carl Tollander]

Sabine Hossenfelder holds forth on fusion and measures of break-even.  Over
a year old, but still
http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2021/10/how-close-is-nuclear-fusion-power.html


On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 4:37 PM glen  wrote:

> That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and
> tritium, not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use, you'd
> track the rarer part more closely, right?
>
> On 12/13/22 09:22, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> > DT = deuterium?
> >
> > ---
> > Frank C. Wimberly
> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> > Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >
> > 505 670-9918
> > Santa Fe, NM
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 10:21 AM glen  geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole
> kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?
> >
> > What is "DT"?
> >
> > On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >  > In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE
> administrators talk:
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > 1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for
> maintaining symmetry.  Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser spatial
> precision of 5e-12 meter were needed.  This was thought to be the main
> explanation for the achievement.
> >  >
> >  > 2. 8% more power on the laser this time
> >  >
> >  > 3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules.
> Developing software to do the counting.
> >  >
> >  > 4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and
> their components (done in Germany) to find idiosyncrasies of each.
> >  >
> >  > 5. Laser technology improvements since NIF was built which are
> 20% more efficient.
> >  >
> >  > 6. Target cost is from labor, and it takes 7 months each
> >  >
> >  > 7. 4% of DT is burned in a shot
> >  >
> >  > 8. Machine learning ties together radiation hydrodynamics and
> experimental data.   (It sounded preliminary.)
> >  >
> >  > 9. The (successful) capsule had more defects than previous
> experiments.   However, previous experiments did show benefits from capsule
> quality.
> >  >
> >  > 10. 15% of experiments are indirect drive of this kind, 15% of
> experiments are other approaches to ignition.  The rest are weapons and
> materials characterization.
> >  >
> >  > 11. Anomalous laser directional control were problems in the
> summer runs.   Fixed that.
>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
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  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[glen]

That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and tritium, 
not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use, you'd track the rarer 
part more closely, right?

On 12/13/22 09:22, Frank Wimberly wrote:

DT = deuterium?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 10:21 AM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole 
kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?

What is "DT"?

On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 > In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE administrators 
talk:
 >
 >
 > 1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for maintaining 
symmetry.  Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser spatial precision of 5e-12 
meter were needed.  This was thought to be the main explanation for the 
achievement.
 >
 > 2. 8% more power on the laser this time
 >
 > 3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules.  Developing 
software to do the counting.
 >
 > 4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and their 
components (done in Germany) to find idiosyncrasies of each.
 >
 > 5. Laser technology improvements since NIF was built which are 20% more 
efficient.
 >
 > 6. Target cost is from labor, and it takes 7 months each
 >
 > 7. 4% of DT is burned in a shot
 >
 > 8. Machine learning ties together radiation hydrodynamics and 
experimental data.   (It sounded preliminary.)
 >
 > 9. The (successful) capsule had more defects than previous experiments.  
 However, previous experiments did show benefits from capsule quality.
 >
 > 10. 15% of experiments are indirect drive of this kind, 15% of 
experiments are other approaches to ignition.  The rest are weapons and materials 
characterization.
 >
 > 11. Anomalous laser directional control were problems in the summer 
runs.   Fixed that.



--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Marcus Daniels]

I thought director Budil made a good case for the unique value of public 
funding of science and advanced technology.   Rockets are understood, Musk and 
others can build them.  Decades of investment to do something like this is, it 
is just different.   And they were not timid about mentioning the defense side. 
 Concurrent with the test of a U.S. hypersonic too.  
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/12/12/air-force-conducts-first-operational-launch-of-arrw-hypersonic-missile/

On Dec 13, 2022, at 10:16 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:

Great synopsis... thanks.

I'm fascinated at how long we've been "on the cusp" of "lighting up" a 
micro-star in the laboratory.

My first awareness was in the early 70s when a Radio Engineer I worked with had 
just come from the early MFE Livermore efforts to my tiny hometown AM RAdio 
station... He described what they were up to as I was taking my first physics 
course (Junior in HS)... and thinking about the implications both for science 
(as little I knew it) and society (cheap/ubiquitous energy).   Working at LANL 
for 3 decades (starting with the high energy Proton Storage Ring) put me close 
to lots of this as an "educated layman".

I can't say "nothing's changed" but it is mind boggling how long one can "hang 
on the cusp" of something.   Or how quickly we can go from burning coal to make 
steam to drive mechanical devices to replace animal and human (and water and 
wind) labor to lighting up tiny stars for the same purpose.

- Steve

"some days just drag on, but the years they just fly by"


Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole kerfuffle. 
Who knew Quanta was so click baity?

What is "DT"?

On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE administrators talk:


1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for maintaining 
symmetry.  Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser spatial precision of 5e-12 
meter were needed.  This was thought to be the main explanation for the 
achievement.

2. 8% more power on the laser this time

3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules. Developing software 
to do the counting.

4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and their 
components (done in Germany) to find idiosyncrasies of each.

5. Laser technology improvements since NIF was built which are 20% more 
efficient.

6. Target cost is from labor, and it takes 7 months each

7. 4% of DT is burned in a shot

8. Machine learning ties together radiation hydrodynamics and experimental 
data.   (It sounded preliminary.)

9. The (successful) capsule had more defects than previous experiments.   
However, previous experiments did show benefits from capsule quality.

10. 15% of experiments are indirect drive of this kind, 15% of experiments are 
other approaches to ignition.  The rest are weapons and materials 
characterization.

11. Anomalous laser directional control were problems in the summer runs.   
Fixed that.


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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Steve Smith]

Great synopsis... thanks.

I'm fascinated at how long we've been "on the cusp" of "lighting up" a 
micro-star in the laboratory.


My first awareness was in the early 70s when a Radio Engineer I worked 
with had just come from the early MFE Livermore efforts to my tiny 
hometown AM RAdio station... He described what they were up to as I was 
taking my first physics course (Junior in HS)... and thinking about the 
implications both for science (as little I knew it) and society 
(cheap/ubiquitous energy).   Working at LANL for 3 decades (starting 
with the high energy Proton Storage Ring) put me close to lots of this 
as an "educated layman".


I can't say "nothing's changed" but it is mind boggling how long one can 
"hang on the cusp" of something.   Or how quickly we can go from burning 
coal to make steam to drive mechanical devices to replace animal and 
human (and water and wind) labor to lighting up tiny stars for the same 
purpose.


- Steve

    "some days just drag on, but the years they just fly by"


Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole 
kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?


What is "DT"?

On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE administrators 
talk:



1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for 
maintaining symmetry.  Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser 
spatial precision of 5e-12 meter were needed.  This was thought to be 
the main explanation for the achievement.


2. 8% more power on the laser this time

3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules. Developing 
software to do the counting.


4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and 
their components (done in Germany) to find idiosyncrasies of each.


5. Laser technology improvements since NIF was built which are 20% 
more efficient.


6. Target cost is from labor, and it takes 7 months each

7. 4% of DT is burned in a shot

8. Machine learning ties together radiation hydrodynamics and 
experimental data.   (It sounded preliminary.)


9. The (successful) capsule had more defects than previous 
experiments.   However, previous experiments did show benefits from 
capsule quality.


10. 15% of experiments are indirect drive of this kind, 15% of 
experiments are other approaches to ignition.  The rest are weapons 
and materials characterization.


11. Anomalous laser directional control were problems in the summer 
runs.   Fixed that.




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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Frank Wimberly]

DT = deuterium?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 10:21 AM glen  wrote:

> Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole
> kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?
>
> What is "DT"?
>
> On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE administrators
> talk:
> >
> >
> > 1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for maintaining
> symmetry.  Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser spatial precision of
> 5e-12 meter were needed.  This was thought to be the main explanation for
> the achievement.
> >
> > 2. 8% more power on the laser this time
> >
> > 3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules.  Developing
> software to do the counting.
> >
> > 4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and their
> components (done in Germany) to find idiosyncrasies of each.
> >
> > 5. Laser technology improvements since NIF was built which are 20% more
> efficient.
> >
> > 6. Target cost is from labor, and it takes 7 months each
> >
> > 7. 4% of DT is burned in a shot
> >
> > 8. Machine learning ties together radiation hydrodynamics and
> experimental data.   (It sounded preliminary.)
> >
> > 9. The (successful) capsule had more defects than previous
> experiments.   However, previous experiments did show benefits from capsule
> quality.
> >
> > 10. 15% of experiments are indirect drive of this kind, 15% of
> experiments are other approaches to ignition.  The rest are weapons and
> materials characterization.
> >
> > 11. Anomalous laser directional control were problems in the summer
> runs.   Fixed that.
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[glen]

Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole kerfuffle. 
Who knew Quanta was so click baity?

What is "DT"?

On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:

In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE administrators talk:


1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for maintaining 
symmetry.  Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser spatial precision of 5e-12 
meter were needed.  This was thought to be the main explanation for the 
achievement.

2. 8% more power on the laser this time

3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules.  Developing software 
to do the counting.

4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and their 
components (done in Germany) to find idiosyncrasies of each.

5. Laser technology improvements since NIF was built which are 20% more 
efficient.

6. Target cost is from labor, and it takes 7 months each

7. 4% of DT is burned in a shot

8. Machine learning ties together radiation hydrodynamics and experimental 
data.   (It sounded preliminary.)

9. The (successful) capsule had more defects than previous experiments.   
However, previous experiments did show benefits from capsule quality.

10. 15% of experiments are indirect drive of this kind, 15% of experiments are 
other approaches to ignition.  The rest are weapons and materials 
characterization.

11. Anomalous laser directional control were problems in the summer runs.   
Fixed that.


--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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