No Subject
(JAY:) These "egalitarian" societies work because they are small. Community members must be able to "recognize" other community memebers. That limits them to 300 or 400 individuals. me: If everyone have information about the trackrecord of somebody's capabilities in a directly any time open information system, we do not need to "recognize" community members in the larger community. And in the smaller one - such as living place and workplace control, such choosing people relying on personal experience is more efficient than the present system where the supervisors are pushed on from the top. By the way, I would call a hierarchy democracy, if it is built bottom-up, everyone is instantly recallable and everyone have the same access to information and life's necessities. Besides not being based on physical strength and darwinism, it seems a very natural social way to me, too... Ray: It not a question wheither or not human will have rulers, the only question is who shall rule. We are presently ruled by the rich. I would like to see different criteria. It's a fact of life that democracy (no matter how one defines it) is on the way out. me: it cannot be on the way out, as it hasn't been in yet! We should be ruled by ourselves, that's the best way to being ouselves; the most individualistic system there is... Eva
Communism is just another stupid idea whose time has past.
- Original Message - From: Eva Durant [EMAIL PROTECTED] People were not consciously structuring slavery, feudalism or capitalism. It happened to them as a consequence of the physical environment including technological/economical development and in turn, social relations. I am beginning to understand your thesis Eva. It seems to be one of two possibilities: Hypothesis #1. "People" are defined by their actions. "People" can only do good things. If that is so, then the "people" can rule because they, by definition, can only do good. Moreover, anyone who does bad is, by definition, not a person. But wait a minute! Wasn't that Hitler's thesis too? Hypothesis #2: "People" can do no wrong. Only the "system" can be wrong. Hasn't this hypothesis been falsified by Joseph Stalin? Question: Over a hundred million people were killed during the last century. Isn't it possible that some of those who were doing the burning, raping, shooting, clubbing, knifing, and bombing were doing it because they LIKED it? Even among primitive people, the murder rates are high. System problems again Eva? Where on Earth, has the "system" EVER allowed the "people" to become the angels you claim them to be? "The new human freedom made striving for expansion and power possible. Such freedom, when multiplied, creates anarchy. The anarchy among civilized societies meant that the play of power in the system was uncontrollable. In an anarchic situation like that, no one can choose that the struggle for power shall cease. But there is one more element in the picture: no one is free to choose peace, but anyone can impose upon all the necessity for power. This is the lesson of the parable of the tribes." [ p. 21, Andrew Bard Schmookler, THE PARABLE OF THE TRIBES; SUNY, 1995. ISBN 0-7914-2420-0 ] Communism is just another stupid idea whose time has past. Jay
URGENT CALL
"URGENT NEED FOR $50,000 US IN ONE WEEK (BY THE 20th FEBRUARY) If we have 500-1000 people each donating 50-100 dollars (also bigger or smaller donations are of course very welcome !!!), we will have it ! " See bottom of e-mail for name of Bank and account for deposit~ je - --- Forwarded Message Follows --- Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:52:54 GMT Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Inter Continental Caravan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:Multiple recipients of list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: The Inter Continental Caravan needs you ! To whom it may concern - an urgent appeal, Dear recipients, In May and June 600 Southern activists tour around Europe together with European activists to demonstrate against 93free trade94 and the institutions pressing for it (the World Trade Organisation, the International Chamber of Commerce, the European Commission etc.), against dodgy multinationals, especially those involved in biotechnology (Monsanto, Novartis...) and to meet and network with different groups across the Continent. We are going to meet with the Geld oder Leben (Money or Life) Bicycle Caravan and the Caravan of Refugees and Migrants in Germany, the Euromarches, Farmers movements in Eastern Europe... The Inter Continental Caravan will join in the demonstrations against the NATO and Nuclear Weapons organised by For Mother Earth and join the actions against the EU-Summit and the G8-Summit in Cologne, and will coincide with the International Day of Action at Financial Centers on the June 18th, which will end the Caravan. The Inter Continental Caravan for Solidarity and Resistance is an initiat ive of the People's Global Action against free94 trade and the WTO (PGA), a network of different people92s movements and organisations around the world. The Caravan will consist mainly of Indian peasants, since that's where idea originally came from. There will be activists from all biggest farmers movements from India, and also anti-nuclear activists, indigenous people, landless, and people fighting against the Narmada Dam project. From other parts of the World, there will be people from Moviemento dos Sem Terra (Landless movement in Brazil), Madres de la Plaza de Mayo (Mothers of the disappeared from Argentina), womens peasant movement from Bangladesh, and there has been interest in Mexico, Nepal, Nicaragua, Columbia, Ecuador, Russia, Thailand, South Korea... This project is not about bringing Southern activists for an exhibition t our to Europe. It is about joining ours and theirs struggles, about solidarity and common resistance. With this project we hope to be able to built up stronger links within different European movements, and between European and Southern Movements. But this project needs everybodys involvement to become true ! Although there have already been extensive fundraising efforts, and much money has already come in, there is still an URGENT NEED FOR 50 000 US DOLLARS IN ONE WEEK (BY THE 20th FEBRUARY), otherwise we will loose the contracts with the busses we are planning to use. This seems to be a very big amount of money, but if we have 500-1000 peop le each donating 50-100 dollars (also bigger or smaller donations are of course very welcome !!!), we will have it ! If we consider that all the Indian participants are each paying their own airfare to participate in the Inter Continental Caravan, then such donations of 50-100 dollars really are not so huge as they may seem, in relation to a project of such magnitude. Please spread this appeal around, publicise it in different newsletters a nd magazines, call your relatives and people who symphatize radical political activism With the EU having the Agenda 2000, the WTOs Milennium round starting, this Caravan really has to take place now - with a little bit of effort from everyone we can make it ! Bank details: Account number: 3701010441 Bank number: 50090100, Okobank Berlin Please specify all the money as "Busses for the Caravan" AND notify us when putting money into the account. For more information: Inter Continental Caravan PO Box 2228, 2301 CE Leiden, Holland tel/fax +31-71-517 3094 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web-site: http://stad.dsl.nl/~caravan, http://www.agp.org -- For MAI-not (un)subscription information, posting guidelines and links to other MAI sites please see http://mai.flora.org/
Re: expand/steady-state mkt. economy
Hi Eva, You and I agree on one subject ( maybe a few others)! We're both atheists. Steve
[Fwd: Laissez Faire City Times - is not FREE forever.]
Lazy Fare is not always going to be free but today they can't give it away.They've been putting the Rupert Murdoch NYPost sleaze rag on my doorstep for over a month now and I have told them that it embarrasses me in front of the neighbors but they just won't stop. Now they're putting the same garbage on the net. REH Since you have been a valued reader to the Laissez Faire City Times, we wanted to reward you with a FREE two year subscription. As you know, high quality Net publications will not remain free forever. New pay-per-page-view systems will be soon be the norm. So that you will not have to pay, we are awarding you NOW with a two year subscription FREE. This is your first "New Issue Notice." To remove your name from this FREE subscription list just RESPOND with 'REMOVE' typed into the Subject: line. -- In the Current Issue: Slick Skating on Thin Ice, by Ace http://www.zolatimes.com/V3.7/thinice.html Dodge Ball, DC Style, by Sunni Maravillosa http://www.zolatimes.com/V3.7/dodgeBall.html Bill and Hillary Clinton as Borderline Psychotics, by Robert L. Kocher http://www.zolatimes.com/V3.7/psychotics.html Spectacle of Farm Socialism, by Michael R. Allen http://www.zolatimes.com/V3.7/farm_social.html Freedom of Approved Speech, by Peter Topolewski http://www.zolatimes.com/V3.7/freespeech.html A Verdict Against Guns by Don L. Tiggre http://www.zolatimes.com/V3.7/gunverdict.html --- Plus ... in the 'Net Gems' Section: The Last Word .. by Rep. Lindsey Graham http://zolatimes.com/aLindsey.html Dr. Quigley and the Network Protecting Bill Clinton http://www.zolatimes.com/aQuig.html Paranoid Readers Respond Rebuttal by Zola http://www.zolatimes.com/v2.27/jbellth.html Rep. Lindsey Graham's Contact with Broaddrick http://www.zolatimes.com/ALone.html -- Laissez Faire City Times Title: Laissez Faire City Times - http://www.zolatimes.com Bookmark Now - Quality is Hard to Find Last Updated at 11:24 PM [MST] 2/14/99 It Won't be FREE forever! Click Now for Free 2 Year Subscription === Disclaimer The Laissez Faire City Times is a private newspaper. Although it is published by a corporation domiciled within the sovereign domain of Laissez Faire City, it is not an official organ of the city or its founding trust. Just as the New York Times is unaffiliated with the city of New York, the City Times is only one of what may be several news publications located in, or domiciled at, Laissez Faire City proper. For information about LFC, please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Y2K Specialists
-- Hi Thomas et al, I fear that all senarios discussed are true, depending on which computer system you are referring to. I suspect that many large systems with large programming staffs are well along the way to solutions, but not all. Supposedly, the DoD is only 30% prepared. On the other hand, smaller systems with smaller staffs may well be behind the curve. They have to decide whether they have a problem, whether to try to fix it or to switch to new software. All these tasks require a fair amount of work and expense. Those in the worst shape may be local agencies that have small staffs, paid an outside firm to write some code many years ago and have accumulated massive amounts of data like welfare data, property tax data, building department data, etc. These people have no budget for upgrading to new software and may not be able to use their old software. This could apply to companies too but I would guess that every small town and local water, fire, park and highway district may be in trouble. The second problem area is with embedded processors. These small devices are used in every piece of instrumentation, control system and monitoring equipment manufactured in the last 20 years. They run the traffic lights, monitor sewage plants, test for toxic spills, evaluate critically ill patients as well as control a vast amount of automated production machinery. Most people don't think of them as computers because they may not have keyboards and monitors that people are used to. The computer chips have even more chance of failure because they were designed for low cost and had limited program space and limited data storage. There was a strong incentive to take programming shortcuts which is where the problem came from in the first place. In many cases, like in the military, no one even knows where these devices are so no one is testing them to find failure modes. Now not all of these devices will fail. Many don't care what the date is and don't try to keep track. The devices I worry most about are those that have some kind of record of maintenance and won't work if they haven't been periodicly recalibrated. They may think that maintenance in '1900' is not good enough and may refuse to work. Real problems there. An awful lot of the Y2K remedial work will involve simply replacing old equipment that has been around a long time, huffing and puffing along, getting the work done slowly but surely. It may get replaced with much better, faster and more reliable equipment. This would be a net gain. So clearly some of the Y2K work will not just be money down a rat hole but will result in improved services. It is just that it is all coming at one time and this in itself can cause disruptions. Think of 2000 as a time of a great fire, destroying the old but offering a chance for the new to spring forth. .. dennis paull -Original Message- From: Neil Rest [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Y2K problems have been accumulating for almost 50 years. All reasonable efforts to deal with particular situations began one to five or more years ago. Practically all the adding of staff is over. Thomas: That may well be so and if it is so, I would like others in the industry to comment. However there seem to be a lot of credible "experts" who are saying just the opposite. My goal is try and find out the truth! Given that a number of surveys have posted estimates of over 30% of the Companies surveyed have not even done a Y2K evaluation seems to indicate that either the surveys are lying or your assessment is incorrect. I don't care who is "right", I just want to know what the hell is going on! One of the primary indicators of a true problem, it would appear to me, is the simple proof of a shortage of Y2K personnel. There does not seem to be an acute shortage. Therefore, one can conclude two things: (a) There is no problem to fix and therefore we don't need anyone to fix it, or, (b) everyone is planning on fixing it but no one has started yet and therefore there is no demand for qualified personnel. The third alternative would be your assessment. Everyone got on top of the problem four or five years ago and it is basically fixed and we can stop worrying. Well, which is it? And how do we find out which possibility is the "true" one? Respectfully, Thomas Lunde The Y2K problem is not the result of anything resembling a consipiracy; it is the result of a mindset. When the programmer told the boss in 1970 that this wouldn't work after 1999, the boss said, "It will have been replaced long before then!" When the programmer told the boss in 1985 that this wouldn't work after 1999, the boss said, "We have to make a better showing this quarter than last!" (The programmer may not have had the opportunity to tell the boss in 1995, since the department had been outsourced.)
Re: expand/steady-state mkt. economy
Thanks for the reply Eva Durant wrote: Religious people believe in a god, whether it is a literal one with beard or an abstract one that supposed to be symbolising some sort of human feeling/thinking/valuing. There is nothing abstract about Ultimate Concern withthat which is Ultimate in the person's life. It could be an automobile, a book or even another person or pet. We put it a different way, we said: "When we die, so do our Gods." You said: Well, I am thankfully free of all this, so I don't know what sort of opinions you have alotted as mine. I say:Put yourself in my place. That is what, as an actor, I do with you.Then I have a conversation knowing that the dialogue is with myself on an inadaquate machine. I can only stir the things you already know within yourself and you within me. Neither one of us is Mime or Wotan and so we don't have to worry about only asking that which we already know. That is all there is anyway.That is also what I was trying to say to you about translation but you have a different thought attached to me on that one. You said: Yes, there is an underlying human concern with finding our place, finding our role in life, but as there is no evidence for anything "ultimate". I say:Glad to know that you don't believe in a hierarchy of needs. You said: I have no reason to think any of it has anything to do with a fair description of our reality. I say:See the Gardner article or see the earlier post I wrote on Arts and Crafts. You said: There is enough wonder around in the form of all that ended up existing temporarily as a result of chains of random coincidences to fill our lives, especially if we also have an ambition to make the best of the short period of consciousness we have for ourselves therefore for everybody else. I say:1. I'm all for "wonder".2. There is no more proof that it is random than that it is not. One might compare it to the randomness of the Internet except there are all of those links. I tend to believe more in the interconnectedness of all reality and that it is a conscious as I am but different. 3. I to wish to make the best for my short period of life in this place but I have no idea about before or after and I must find a balance between enlightened self-interest and the rest of the world. Are you saying, along with Ayn Rand, that if you are truly selfish with your brief period that it will be good for everyone else as well? You say: If you think that all of it is here to please you or your god, you are wrong, I say:Actually that is a paper tiger but how do you know that it is wrong. I thinkthat is as much an area of "belief" as the "faith" of the people you deride. I'm not speaking of faith as "ultimate concern" but as "belief in that which cannot be proven." You say: but you should let me criticise peacefully yours ... it is just an other aspect of life one has to puzzle about... I say;I agree and you can. You said: As for languages and people - they exist to pass on meanings. If there is no content, there is no point in language or communication. I said;Every word in every language can contain at least seven meanings.Meaninglessness is the concept of the Barbarian gibberish that the Greeks claimed everyone else spoke but them.They meant that foreign languages were gibberish. I find it quaint that you seem to be asserting that in the 20th century.But it feels like something else. It feels like you are using it for a purpose other than the Greeks ethnocentricity.But I don't know.This is still a one dimensional machine. But: It feels like you are using my words to allow you an opportunity to pass judgment on my being and intent. Is that true? If so, Why? I have attempted to convey respect about your first language, including going to the trouble to check my translations and your couplet even after I said that I didn't speak your language. But I have studied it enough to make those beautiful songs available to our audiences here. But next to a native speaker I am no more than a tourist. But that being said: I have made my living on the International Arts scene in New York City for the last thirty years both with myself, my professional students and my company. During that time we have placed our expertise and artistry on the line before world critics and in venues including the Metropolitan Opera, Covent Garden, La Scala and others as well as on premiere recordings.So I find your judgments interesting in that no one is perfect or above learning. At the same time I find that carefully worded sections and passages rethought to mean exactly what I am thinking in the moment are just "put down" ignored or skipped. The key to what a professional singer does is words and words are almost God in that we are very nearly ultimately concerned with them. I like a great deal of what you say and I am delighted to read a genuine Marxist rather than the
ethanol
There is an article in the January - February Issue of Foreign Affairs (The New Petroleum, by Richard G. Lugar and R. James Woolsey) which argues that, given some support, cheap ethanol produced from cellulosic biomass (rather than feed grains, as at present) could greatly reduce American reliance on fossil fuels and dependence on Middle East producers. Part of the argument reads as follows: Renewable fuels produced from plants are an outstanding way to substantially reduce greenhouse gases. Although burning ethanol releases carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, it is essentially the same carbon dioxide that was fixed by photosynthesis when the plants grew. Burning fossil fuels, on the other hand, releases carbon dioxide that otherwise would have stayed trapped beneath the earth. If one looks at the complete life cycle of the production and use of ethanol derived from feed grains, the only addition of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere results from the use of fossil fuel products in planting, chemical fertilizing, harvesting, and processing. But this fossil fuel use can be substantialup to seven gallons of oil may be needed to produce eight gallons of ethanol. When ethanol is produced from cellulosic biomass, however, relatively little tilling or cultivation is required, reducing the energy inputs. It takes only about one gallon of oil to produce seven of ethanol. There is a virtual consensus among scientists: when considered as part of a complete cycle of growth, fermentation, and combustion, the use of cellulosic ethanol as a fuel, once optimized, will contribute essenfially no net carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. According to a 1997 study done by five laboratories of the U.S. Department of Energy, a vehicle powered by biomass ethanol emits well under one percent of the carbon dioxide emitted by one powered by gasoline. More surprising, however, is that ethanol produced from biomass emits only about one percent of the carbon dioxide emitted by battery-powered vehicles, since the electricity for those is com-monly produced by burning fossil fuels at another location. Although local air quality is improved, total carbon dioxide emissions are not curtailed; they are merely exportedfor example, from Los Angeles to the Four Corners. Unless the electricity to charge the cars batteries is produced by renewable fuels or nuclear power, electric vehicles are only 20 to 40 percent better as carbon dioxide emitters than gasoline-powered cars. Biomass ethanol beats both by a factor of about 100, fundamentally changing the global-warming debate. The authors further suggest enormous economic benefits for declining agricultural areas as petroleum stocks decline and efforts to find biomass based replacements intensify. Perhaps the next back to the land movement will be based on economic reality, not ideology? A couple of interesting points: Brazil already has 3.6 million pure ethanol driven vehicles on the road, and (the authors argue) Henry Ford saw ethanol as the fuel of choice for automobiles. Ed Weick
Re: ethanol
A couple of interesting points: Brazil already has 3.6 million pure ethanol driven vehicles on the road... And they're turning the Amazon Basin into a wasteland at an alarming rate. Maybe Jay has the figures to do the accounting on this. Enough "cellulosic biomass" -- typically, that means trees -- to generate enough ethanol to replace a significant fraction of fuel protroleum use is how many trees? I live in a generally woodland area of what the industry would consider second-rate trees for any use but pulp. And we're already seeing ecologically unsustainable clearcutting by hungry small woodlot owners to feed megacorp buyers. A tree is marketable if a semiautomated mill can cut a single grade C 2x4 out of it. I would expect an ethanol industry to promote massive clear cutting of "over-mature" and "inefficient" woodlands (read healthy, diverse biome) with monoculture replanting of fast-growing plantation species. Feh. Anybody have the numbers on acres of woods per supertanker-load of crude equivalence? - Mike -- Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL: http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/mspencer/home.html ---
Re: Y2K
At 04:43 PM 2/19/99 -0500, "Thomas Lunde" [EMAIL PROTECTED] replied to me: My goal is try and find out the truth! I don't care who is "right", I just want to know what the hell is going on! The Y2K problem is not the result of anything resembling a consipiracy; it is the result of a mindset. When the programmer told the boss in 1970 that this wouldn't work after 1999, the boss said, "It will have been replaced long before then!" When the programmer told the boss in 1985 that this wouldn't work after 1999, the boss said, "We have to make a better showing this quarter than last!" (The programmer may not have had the opportunity to tell the boss in 1995, since the department had been outsourced.) I'll try once more: What is going on is not just one thing. Many things are going on, in several diverse categories, which, all together, are in the big tent called "Y2K". Please stop trying to be all the blind men with the elephant at once! Computers do many things in many ways. Many of those things involve "awareness" of the passage of time. If this person is 65, they are eligible for Social Security; if this person is six, theyneed to have had their shots before entering school. Average the last ten one-minute-interval temperature readings in this pipe and if the rolling average increases too quickly, sound an alarm. Calculate the effects of currency fluctuations on various countries' 30-year bonds. If today is any day but Saturday or Sunday, turn on the building's HVAC at 6 a.m. Christmas is December 25, Thanksgiving is the fourth Thursday in November, but Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox; all are paid holidays. Does this begin to suggest that there is no single What's Going On? Neil Rest [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Over three weeks, I lost my job, my computer when the back porch of my third floor apartment flooded, my closest friendship, most of a molar, confidence in my landlord, and my ISP. I missed ConFusion and a couple of great concerts, and instead of getting the tax refund I expected, I owe $750. when I'd gotten unable to count all that on my fingers, and wrote it down, I didn't add that all that happened not long after I'd figured that I'd never be able to get the time off to go to Australia as I'd planned so long
