Re: Forward: The Market as God
I actually agree with the gist of this one I think Eva Harvey Cox is speaking in terms of Ultimate Concern and its working out through the practical but in the Market's case there is no church because there is no competitive alternative except for the now defeated Communism. To claim that the market is the church is like claiming that the Puritan's church was a hospital since their marital practices "cured" syphilis through taboo. Or that their church was validated by the disappearance of disease in their communities while the natives died all around them from the germs they carried as a natural part of their biology.It certainly made no difference in the lives of the natives, by their becoming Christians, as to whether they lived or died by the Puritan germs.98% died either way. But the Market as God seems absolutely reasonable in the theological doctrines and climes where Cox lives.It could be much of the same as with the Puritans. I tend to like what Lord Russell said about Religion and Science even though he was a bit biased: "Science tells us what we can know, but what we can know is little, and if we forget how much we cannot know we become insensitive to many things of very great importance. Theology,. on the other hand, induces a dogmatic belief that we have knowledge where in fact we have ignorance, and by doing so generates a kind of impertinent insolence towards the universe. Uncertainty, in the presence of vivid hopes and fears, is painful, but must be endured if we wish to live without the support of comforting fairy tales. It is not good either to forget the questions that philosophy asks, or to persuade ourselves that we have found indubitable answers to them. To teach how to live without certainty, and yet without being paralyzed by hesitation, is perhaps the chief thing that philosophy, in our age, can still do for those who study it." Bertrand Russell, "A History of Western Philosophy. I suspect that Cox was claiming the Market as Idolatry. "That shalt have nothing that is less than truly Ultimate before the Ultimate Bottom Line." On the other hand Russell would say that the Market's need for psychological security has caused it to claim the validity of all kinds of credos that are in truth nothing more than fairy tales and a "dogmatic belief that we have knowledge where in fact we have ignorance." Since the Market as well as the study of Economics has such an effect on our lives in spite of our wishes, I am reminded of an earlier section in which Russell claims that an "individual facing the terror of cosmic loneliness" is forced to study and become an amateur philosopher: "To understand an age or a nation, we must understand its philosophy, and to understand its philosophy we must ourselves be in some degree philosophers." It seems that today's situation demands that we all become "in some degree" economists and sophisticated about the political implications of both the Market and the Dictatorship of the Proletariat simply in order, not to face Russell's Cosmic Loneliness, but the likelihood of financial ruin.(See Sunday's NYTimes Front Page on the effects of the "Welfare Reform" on the elderly poor forced to go through another age of childrearing.) It makes one envy the poor economist/philosopher who is only required to have only one job, and be good at it, rather than the rest of us being required to work two or more ( i.e. Arts and Economics) just to survive. Makes one long for the days of benevolent Chiefs chosen carefully by the Clan Mothers. Ray Evans Harrell, artistic director The Magic Circle Chamber Opera of New York, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How hard is it to change opinions?
The problem of health, commodities, the left vs. the right, or the mental models that we bring to these discussions seems to be making people angry everywhere .The future of work is an interesting thought except everyone only seems to want to discuss the future of their work or their favorite philosopher/economist. Is there any hope for a discussion on what work means and what kind of multiplicity there must be to create a humane, happy future together?Well probably not, but maybe the following will be of interest. You can work out your futurework aims real well, but if you don't pay attention to the social/economical conditions that are able to supply your noble aims, you might as well don't bother. John you assume a hell of alot about their ability to understand, don't you think? After all there were all of those circles on "Another World" in the Soaps of the 1950s-60s and they didn't get it then. If it's too hard for the soap operas to teach then what hope is there on the net? nothing teaches better than a good helping of experience... people are able to get understanding in 24 hours as they did in a lot of historical events. I'm having a terrible discussion with a H C who lives in England on another list. You would think she was a right winger or something. No practicality anywhere, just "make work" to prove that the lack of a need of workers is not real. Anyway, you are one smart fellow and much more optimistic than myself in this instance.I couldn't even bring myself to reply to At on the last post and that must mean I'm depressed. I hope you are not describing me here, I have never argued for "make work" and I am immensely practical... Eva Ray Evans Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Here is analogy.
- Original Message - From: Jan Matthieu [EMAIL PROTECTED] But evolution is not rational, isn't it? Leaves the Machiavellian calculator, who now is going to take the place of evolution and decide what's right? Here is analogy. The Titanic (civilization) has just struck the ice -- and that's an indisputable fact. "Observers", who aren't certain, can look in the bilge and see the water rising. A little logic and imagination tells the "thinkers" that shortly the Titanic will be unable to support human life. What should be done? I advocate selecting the best "qualified" person to organize a survival and rescue effort as quickly as possible. Eva wants the passengers to form a committee to look into it. Jan want's to lead us in hymns. Jay -- www.dieoff.com -- hymn (him) noun 1. A song of praise or thanksgiving to God or a deity.
Re: Forward: The Market as God
- Original Message - From: Ray E. Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Since the Market as well as the study of Economics has such an effect on our lives in spite of our wishes, I am reminded of an earlier section in which Russell claims that an "individual facing the terror of cosmic loneliness" is forced to study and become an amateur philosopher: "To understand an age or a nation, we must understand its philosophy, and to understand its philosophy we must ourselves be in some degree philosophers." Excellent analysis Ray! And Russell is right on target. The choice is between the certainty of a lie or the uncertainty of truth. Only a philosopher can thrive on worldview uncertainty. Jay - "When Leon the tyrant of Phlius asked Pythagoras who he was, he said, 'A Philosopher,' and he compared life to the public festivals, where some went to compete for a prize and others went with things to sell, but the best as observers; for similarly, in life, some grow up with servile natures, greedy for fame and gain, but philosophers seek the truth." Diogenes Laertius
FW German unions demand creation of new jobs through reductionof overtime
the beat goes on...
Monday February 22, 12:52 PM (EST) Levi Strauss to lay off 5,900 SAN FRANCISCO, Feb. 22 (UPI S) _ Levi Strauss has announced (Monday) that it will close 11 of its 22 North American manufacturing facilities this year and lay off 5,900 workers _ 30 percent of its workforce in the United States and Canada. The clothing manufacturer says it will shift ``a significant portion'' of manufacturing for the U.S. and Canadian markets to contractors throughout the world as part of an effort to improve its competitive position. _-
Re: Here is analogy.
What should be done? I advocate selecting the best "qualified" person to organize a survival and rescue effort as quickly as possible. Eva wants the passengers to form a committee to look into it. Who does the selection and who counts as "qualified"? That committee would do better than a self-appointed psychopath that calls himself a scientist. A committee would have more chance of having a sailor, a doctor, a first aider, a meteorologist etc who together could find the best available option, that one, however "qualified" person. Eva Jay -- www.dieoff.com -- hymn (him) noun 1. A song of praise or thanksgiving to God or a deity. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
FW: Re an empirical observation
"Jay Hanson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are arguing from a vantage point of deliberate ignorance because you are ideologically opposed to scientific information. [...] Machiavelli identified the two methods to control most people: deception and force. Stated without proof. Machiavelli was hardly a scientist. He was just another cynic. The most effective way to motivate people to do something is to treat them as capable, effective, intelligent agents, and engage their enthusiasm. It is my experience that people will always rise to meet higher expectations of them, and will appreciate the high regard in which they are held. Only a very small few are so damaged as to be unable to spontaneously respond to this treatment, and those can be dealt with effectively in other ways without impairing the effectiveness of positive leadership on the majority. Deception and coersion lead to nothing but resistance, rebellion, and lots more bad karma down the line. You have provided nothing to support your position. -Pete Vincent
Re: Collapse yourself
Thus, in principle, democracy can not save us. Jay If only it saves us of the anti-democrats I'm already happy. I know one thing for certain: it's not you and people who harbour such ideas, going to save the world, you just make things more difficult for democratic forces. As democracy IS the only way to change anything at all, the rest can only lead to fascism or worse, to keep telling everyone it cannot work etc. is trying to make your doomsday prophecy self-fulfilling, and the worst 'help' you can offer. But I know, you don't care about that. You don't want to be taken seriously, as you said before on other lists. And please don't send me any more of your dieoff articles, I've seen them, I even read most of them. Jan
Re: How hard is it to change opinions?
I wrote to my friend John: The problem of health, commodities, the left vs. the right, or the mental models that we bring to these discussions seems to be making people angry everywhere .The future of work is an interesting thought except everyone only seems to want to discuss the future of their work or their favorite philosopher/economist. Is there any hope for a discussion on what work means and what kind of multiplicity there must be to create a humane, happy future together?Well probably not, but maybe the following will be of interest. Durant wrote: You can work out your futurework aims real well, but if you don't pay attention to the social/economical conditions that are able to supply your noble aims, you might as well don't bother. Eva, this is obvious. Why would you think that those of us who have worked with people in both public and private sectors all of our lives, including as private impresarios, would not pay attention to "social/economical" and cultural issues?We would have starved long ago here, unlike the musicians who have state jobs in the socialist countries.I have experienced that as well when I was a singer in the White House Army Chorus where we were paid salaries. It was a regular six year job. Nice, but I prefer creating my own work and developing my own audiences even though I don't have the health care or retirement plan and my daughter will go to school as I did, paying her way and earning scholarships. I said: John you assume a hell of alot about their ability to understand, don't you think? After all there were all of those circles on "Another World" in the Soaps of the 1950s-60s and they didn't get it then. If it's too hard for the soap operas to teach then what hope is there on the net? Eva said: nothing teaches better than a good helping of experience... people are able to get understanding in 24 hours as they did in a lot of historical events. I believe that experience is the only developer of real knowledge. Do you all have soap operas on the television in the UK? How about "Another World" with all of the inter-connected circles opening the program? I said: I'm having a terrible discussion with a H C who lives in England on another list. You would think she was a right winger or something. No practicality anywhere, just "make work" to prove that the lack of a need of workers is not real. Anyway, you are one smart fellow and much more optimistic than myself in this instance.I couldn't even bring myself to reply to At on the last post and that must mean I'm depressed. Eva surmised: I hope you are not describing me here, I have never argued for "make work" and I am immensely practical... I have observed that people both on the left and right politically on these lists advocate "make work." Most work in the private sectors in Capitalism is like the fat on a good sirloin. On the other hand I believe Jay's complaint about Democratic Socialism being bureaucratic is accurate as well. I think the problem has to do with an addiction to competition and speed in the workplace. Rather than high quality workmanship in either case we often get shoddy products that are merely acceptable and use up precious resources. There is a problem in the practical workings of all of the human systems thus far with quality and creativity. Neither Capitalism, the world religions, the various Socialisms, or even Science are very comfortable with radical change. I will give you an example from my own background. I was a researcher for an educational library being developed for the teaching of children. We were far more capable of developing radical educational procedures, with their requisite materials, than the teachers, parents, publishers and administrations could absorb. They wanted stability that they could feel comfortable with, we were interested in pedagogical progress. The students loved what we did, and were highly successful in the performance of it, but we were terminated by the University because we were too aggressive in our enthusiasm and because they couldn't afford to change the publishing on a yearly basis as well as train the teachers to teach the new material.The head teacher/researcher moved out into the community and started a school with 300 students the next year. She has been very successful but now does not recommend that students study the piano as a living. She feels that the society is uncomfortable with the Arts and that their lives would be miserable so she teaches them for their growth and enjoyment but does not encourage them in it as a vocation. The society claims to be interested in change but is locked in the mud while she taught change and the children became alienated from their parents. The same is true with children who are computer hackers. These highly innovative children
Re: Here is analogy.
Jay Hanson wrote: The Titanic (civilization) has just struck the ice -- I advocate selecting the best "qualified" person to organize a survival and rescue effort as quickly as possible. But, in this scenario, would it really have made much difference? Or maybe that is the point! Eva wants the passengers to form a committee to look into it. Might give them something to think about, other than impending doom! Jan want's to lead us in hymns. Ditto! Jay -- www.dieoff.com -- Bob -- ___ http://publish.uwo.ca/~mcdaniel/
Re: competition/contradiction
Durant wrote: I asked for a contribution in the above themes from a friend of mine who happens to be hungarian, married to an English chap and a socialist, quite like me... Be sure - there are more useful work-related information here that in a lot of other posts! For some reason she started in Hungarian, my english summary follows these first paragraphs. Eva (snip the Hungarian but it was fun to say) Öszi délben, öszi délben,Oh be nehéz kacagni a leá nyokra.REH: Just a point about the way that I write since there is always an issue of whether you got the "gist" of it or not. I am an oral person so my words are more easily understood if you say them out loud. I never have appreciated the simplicity of literacy.This was quite a journey. I thank you both and for anyone who has a short attention span just delete.As for me I enjoyed the thinking. Julianna said and Eva translated:. (Ofcourse there is no link with moral norms. The contradiction is based on the working class producing the goods, but the employers only paying back as much as the workers need to survive. REHThe workers transformed the material into something that may or may not have been good and useful.I don't find that separation into "exploiters" and "exploited" serves much purpose in our situation, unless the exploited are artists but everyone exploits us. Such thoughts in economics considers orchestras to be "workers" and from there they go to being the same as plumbers.This is a grim situation: Hallotátok már? Öszszel, amikor kavarog a köd, Az éjszakában valami nyöszörög. Julianna continued: This is the wage; only pays for the worker, not for the work done. The amount of the wage depends from the markets, from the strength of the unions, from the level of unemployment, etc, etc, but never from the value produced. REHDefine "value." Value according to most economists is money.According to many of the Scots it was "usefulness." What is it according to your system of thought? Value of course to an artist is quite another thing and has to do with truth and beauty. Valami dobban. Valaki minden jajt öszszelopott, Julianna continued: This is never returned, as then the employer would have no profit and would have to close the workplace.) REHAre you saying that the employer deserves no pay for his/her investment as well as her/his labor? == more long lovely Hungarian phrases but with no umlauts or accents? Very few words that are familiar to me but does Hungarian not use the (e) following a letter that has an umlaut that cannot be written on your computer?For example in English Krüger would be written Krueger but pronounced the same. For example would özszelopott be written on the computer as oeszelopott? == (snip) perhaps you might translate for us these lovely phrases: Valaki korhadt, vén deszkákon kopog. Julianna via Eva: (One of the most basic contradiction is, that if the worker only gets back a very small portion of the value he produced, than he has not enough money to buy the necessities to live, sold by the owners of the factories etc, so these owners cannot make the profits and have to close down.) REHSounds like a dumb owner and herd like workers. Now I like the New York Philharmonic as a group of workers. They can scare the b'geezis out of anyone who would take advantage of them. And 802 the Musician's Union is formidable. They can even get a producer to hire musicians based not upon the orchestration but how many musicians the pit will hold. So if they only need eight musicians to play in a sixteen piece pit, the other eight musicians are hired to stand in the wings and watch.Then there is the Stage Workers contract for the Kennedy Center in Washington. Your poor dumb beasts are nothing like these smart workers. But the best of all is the movies. Julianna, you should come to the big city and see how the Screen Actors Guild negotiates with producers. The modern "virtual company" founded upon the movie company model is really a "Model T" flexible contract when compared to movie salaries. What I see is incompetence all around. Your statements are hopelessly old fashioned and most of the companies of the world are as well. For many years America's greatest exports have been in the Arts and Entertainments areas primarily the movies. They can fake a Nike plant in Hong Kong or Thailand but not a movie.That is the biggest area of battle these days between the UK and the American Unions. The UK salaries are inadequate but the U.S. is restraining trade through their labor practices. On the other hand where America will hire a "British accent" easily due to the multi-ethnic society, the UK will only cast Americans in American parts which means that there are few jobs for Americans in the UK even though the
