Re: FVWM: Book on fvwm...
Hi, Did anyone respond on this? Raspian On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Raspian Belouchi wrote: > Howdy, > > Can anyone tell me what the status of this thread is? > > http://www.mail-archive.com/fvwm@fvwm.org/msg01393.html > > It's an old thread, and I recall reading my copy of Linux Unleashed > many years ago when they still mentioned fvwm. Given that I am > disliking the direction Unity and Gnome are headed I wanted to look at > fvwm again - but struggle with the man page. > > I think a book on fvwm would be awesome! > > Raspian >
Re: FVWM: Book on fvwm...
It seems like nobody is working on a book right now. I have planned to write some kind of FVWM documentation in English, but I only have one day per week, and this day involves the four topics - virtualization - Debian - related networking issues - and FVWM. And since I have to skip this one day per week too often, you can figure out when I will have produced a result that could be compared with a "book about FVWM". My problem is that I need money to pay my living expenses. The best thing you (and every other person who wants to learn FVWM) can do is to just read the man page, to read the "Unofficial Tutorial" at http://www.zensites.net/fvwm/guide/ and to ask specific questions on this list if you don't get further with your own understanding. - Michael - Raspian Belouchi wrote: > Hi, > > Did anyone respond on this? > > Raspian > > On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Raspian Belouchi > wrote: >> Howdy, >> >> Can anyone tell me what the status of this thread is? >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/fvwm@fvwm.org/msg01393.html >> >> It's an old thread, and I recall reading my copy of Linux Unleashed >> many years ago when they still mentioned fvwm. Given that I am >> disliking the direction Unity and Gnome are headed I wanted to look at >> fvwm again - but struggle with the man page. >> >> I think a book on fvwm would be awesome! >> >> Raspian >> > >
Re: FVWM: Book on fvwm...
On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 11:59:26AM +0200, Michael Großer wrote: > It seems like nobody is working on a book > right now. I am. But haven't got very far. > I have planned to write some kind of FVWM documentation > in English, but I only have one day per week, and this > day involves the four topics Why? Just put your efforts in augmenting/improving the **existing** documentation, such as the man pages. -- Thomas Adam -- "It was the cruelest game I've ever played and it's played inside my head." -- "Hush The Warmth", Gorky's Zygotic Mynci.
Re: FVWM: Book on fvwm...
Thomas Adam wrote: > On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 11:59:26AM +0200, Michael Großer wrote: >> It seems like nobody is working on a book >> right now. > > I am. But haven't got very far. > >> I have planned to write some kind of FVWM documentation >> in English, but I only have one day per week, and this >> day involves the four topics > > Why? Just put your efforts in augmenting/improving the **existing** > documentation, such as the man pages. > > -- Thomas Adam > At least, I plan to document how to install current FVWM versions on Debian systems. This isn't something that fits into a man page. Also showing the sources of the existing documentation (man pages, ...) could be a good idea. I don't plan to replace the man page. It makes more sense to show how to use the man page to write a useful config, which matches to a certain use case (defined by me). When I actually start producing documentation ready to publish, I can decide in the respective given case if I put it into my own documentation or if I augment/improve the man page. This depends on if my pieces of information match more to my concept, which applies FVWM, or if these pieces of information are so general that it is obvious that they belong into the man page. For me, FVWM is a part of a more larger concept. But as I wrote before, my biggest problem currently is time management. It makes me sad that I have a big plan and that I just can't continue working on it. Currently, I'm adressing exactly this problem. I still have the chance to win this fight... - Michael -
Re: FVWM: Book on fvwm...
On Sun, Apr 08, 2012 at 12:36:48AM +0200, Michael Großer wrote: > Thomas Adam wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 11:59:26AM +0200, Michael Großer wrote: > >> It seems like nobody is working on a book > >> right now. > > > > I am. But haven't got very far. > > > >> I have planned to write some kind of FVWM documentation > >> in English, but I only have one day per week, and this > >> day involves the four topics > > > > Why? Just put your efforts in augmenting/improving the **existing** > > documentation, such as the man pages. > > > > -- Thomas Adam > > > > At least, I plan to document how to install current FVWM versions > on Debian systems. This isn't something that fits into a man page. You're right, it's also something best discussed with the current FVWM maintainer, and should you care as much as to take it further, the debian-mentors list. But documenting how you install current FVWM on debian? Don't bother. Seriously. It's a waste of your time. > Also showing the sources of the existing documentation (man pages, > ...) could be a good idea. I don't plan to replace the man page. > It makes more sense to show how to use the man page to write > a useful config, which matches to a certain use case (defined by > me). Hmm -- a "me too" which may or may not be applicable to someone else? To be honest, they're the worst type of documents to read because you're detailing something specific or esoteric that it's likely never going to be useful to anyone but you. Fine -- maybe others will draw inspiration from it. But to then think that showing people how to read or use the man page isn't patronising is curious -- how are you going to phrase that such that you're not also stating the obvious? You might as well host an aside tutorial on how to suck eggs. I'll happily forward that on to my grandmother. Don't you see? I'm actually giving you more than one opportunity here to augment the man page -- and no, I don't care if your tutorial style document is simply a "here's what I did" document, but if you're also including teaching people from the outset how to use the FVWM man page, that to me says there's room for improvement, albeit with supplementary explanations or some kind of example sections (which we already have for some commands anyway). Not that I'm forcing you, Michael, but these "go it alone" sorts of documents are utterly harmful to projects like this, where one-time "wow, I did it!" documents which are written once, and then never run again, just stagnate and either teach bad habits or then just no longer work. Not quite in the same vein, but look at Perl. That had a recent binge on perl4 documents to try and make "modern perl" tutorials. That will suffer from the same basic premise though of stagnation, but the official documentation never has, and that's where most people should be heading anyway. > When I actually start producing documentation ready to publish, > I can decide in the respective given case if I put it into my > own documentation or if I augment/improve the man page. That would be good. -- Thomas Adam -- "It was the cruelest game I've ever played and it's played inside my head." -- "Hush The Warmth", Gorky's Zygotic Mynci.
Re: FVWM: Book on fvwm...
On 26Mar2012 09:57, Raspian Belouchi wrote: | Given that I am | disliking the direction Unity and Gnome are headed I wanted to look at | fvwm again - but struggle with the man page. Slightly off topic, more on how to get going: My approach is to start with the man page and write a basic start on an fvwmrc setting all the global mode values to my preferred settings. This both shows my brain all the things one might consider with FVWM, and documents them in the file I'll be consulting - everything is there, set one way or another, ready to toggle. Since a lot of this is done with styles in FVWM, here's an example from my fvwmrc (obviously, these settings want tuning for you): Style "general" SkipMapping, SmartPlacement, RandomPlacement, \ ForeColor #00ff00, BackColor #00, \ HilightFore #00, HilightBack #006000, \ RecaptureIgnoresStartsOnPage, MinOverlapPlacement, ClickToFocusRaisesOff, \ MouseFocusClickRaisesOff, ManualPlacementIgnoresStartsOnPage, \ NoIcon, IgnoreRestack, MaxWindowSize 100 100, UsePPosition, \ DontRaiseTransient, DontLowerTransient, GrabFocusTransientOff Style "zen" UseStyle "general", \ NoTitle, NoHandles, BorderWidth 0, HandleWidth 0 Style "nested" UseStyle "general", \ Title, BorderWidth 2, HandleWidth 2, BackingStore, SaveUnder Style "*" UseStyle zen Style "sticky" Sticky Style "topsticky" UseStyle sticky, StaysOnTop, WindowListSkip Style "bottomsticky" UseStyle sticky, StaysOnBottom MenuStyle "*" AutomaticHotkeys, SeparatorsShort, \ NoSelectOnRelease, \ TrianglesRelief, BorderWidth 0, \ MenuColorset 2, ActiveFore, HilightBack, \ ActiveColorset 3, GreyedColorset 4 The "*" styles are the default. The point here is that most things are now visible in my fvwmrc, ready for adjustment. One nice thing is that you can then style particular apps, eg: Style "gkrellm" UseStyle bottomsticky Then start fvwm and eyeball what's missing (wrong fous behaviours, etc), and visit the FVWM themes and screenshots pages for ideas on particular things you might want. Functions and key bindings in particular can be hard to learn without examples, but there are a fair number of examples. Cheers, -- Cameron Simpson DoD#743 http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/ ..And in all of Babylonia there was wailing and gnashing of teeth, till the prophets bade the multitudes get a grip on themselves and shape up. - Woody Allen
Re: FVWM: Book on fvwm...
On 2012-04-06, Michael Großer wrote: > It seems like nobody is working on a book > right now. > [SKIP] > The best thing you (and every other person who wants > to learn FVWM) can do is to just read the man page, > to read the "Unofficial Tutorial" at > http://www.zensites.net/fvwm/guide/ > I just yesterday ask about using FvwmCpp and FvwmM4 modules. Because this page: http://www.zensites.net/fvwm/guide/global.html around 2008 introduce to me usage of: SetVar VAR VAL for anything. But this is bad practice as noticed by Thomas Adam at: http://fvwmwiki.xteddy.org/IRC/HashFvwm/ And this is highly harmonised with Thomas replay: > Not that I'm forcing you, Michael, but these "go it alone" sorts of > documents are utterly harmful to projects like this, where one-time "wow, I > did it!" documents which are written once, and then never run again zensites.net is most valuable and user friendly tutorial for FVWM newcomers (at list in 2008 when I try to configure Fvwm first time, it have white background, table of contents and look like macho document, better then blog posts and other articles from miscellaneous home pages). It was written in style "here's what I did" TM and after copy/paste it work and take effect immediately. But it is old, deprecated in some parts and give "bad" style (in case of SetVar) for newbies. I think official up‐to‐date tutorial is good thing for Fvwm. It allow preserve time in configuration for end user and allow spread best practices... With this none will want any books... -- Best regards!
Re: FVWM: Book on fvwm...
On Mon, Jul 09, 2012 at 09:07:17PM +0300, Oleksandr Gavenko wrote: > On 2012-04-06, Michael Großer wrote: > > > It seems like nobody is working on a book > > right now. > > [SKIP] > > The best thing you (and every other person who wants > > to learn FVWM) can do is to just read the man page, > > to read the "Unofficial Tutorial" at > > http://www.zensites.net/fvwm/guide/ > > > I just yesterday ask about using FvwmCpp and FvwmM4 modules. Because this > page: > > http://www.zensites.net/fvwm/guide/global.html > > around 2008 introduce to me usage of: > > SetVar VAR VAL That is my guide and I would like to update it to and make it more inline of my modern approach and good fvwm pratcies. Though if you read though the guide you do see I say don't abuse this and in my new version (its imcomplete and I can't seem to get the motivation to fine tune it) I removed the SetEnv completely and want to replace it with InfoStore. But from the guide "Note though that over-using environment variables leads to a lot of "pollution" within FVWM's evironment space, especially if they're only being used to hold settings which might only ever change once a year. You can see this thread on the fvwm forums for more detailed information." though I guess I need to update the link there If you want I don't mind sending a copy of the new version in its very raw incomplete form if you want to add to it. I am not really seeking help for it, but I don't mind accepting some if it follows the same format (I don't want it to be documentation but mearly a way to get people into the frameset of an fvwm config file so they can then start to read the fvwm man page to extract the info they need to do what they want) jaimos
Re: FVWM: Book on fvwm...
Jaimos Skriletz wrote: > On Mon, Jul 09, 2012 at 09:07:17PM +0300, Oleksandr Gavenko wrote: >> On 2012-04-06, Michael Großer wrote: >> >> > It seems like nobody is working on a book >> > right now. >> > [SKIP] > > I don't want it to be documentation but mearly a way to get > people into the frameset of an fvwm config file so they can > then start to read the fvwm man page to extract the info they > need to do what they want) This is the way I went: 1.) I read parts of your tutorial to enter the world of FVWM. 2.) When I was in, I continued reading the man page and asking questions here on the list. I discarded my intention of writing my own kind of tutorial, because it is summer now on the northern hemisphere and I'm not even one step further than last winter. I have a more realistic goal now. Michael
Re: FVWM: Book on fvwm...
On 9 July 2012 19:07, Oleksandr Gavenko wrote: > around 2008 introduce to me usage of: > > SetVar VAR VAL > > for anything. But this is bad practice as noticed by Thomas Adam at: > > http://fvwmwiki.xteddy.org/IRC/HashFvwm/ > > And this is highly harmonised with Thomas replay: > >> Not that I'm forcing you, Michael, but these "go it alone" sorts of >> documents are utterly harmful to projects like this, where one-time "wow, I >> did it!" documents which are written once, and then never run again No. That's been completely taken out of context, and that's dangerous. Do NOT mince my reply to fit your own concept. That paragraph above, attributed to me, was about having disparate howtos, and what have you, where the original documentation -- the man page -- should just be updated instead. It has NOTHING to do with your own bee-in-the-bonnet problem of SetEnv. > I think official up‐to‐date tutorial is good thing for Fvwm. > > It allow preserve time in configuration for end user and allow spread best > practices... > > With this none will want any books... Excellent. When are you planning to write this? -- Thomas Adam
Re: FVWM: Book on fvwm...
On Mon, 9 Jul 2012 13:54:41 -0600 Jaimos Skriletz wrote: > On Mon, Jul 09, 2012 at 09:07:17PM +0300, Oleksandr Gavenko wrote: > > On 2012-04-06, Michael Großer wrote: > > > > > It seems like nobody is working on a book > > > right now. > > > [SKIP] > > > The best thing you (and every other person who wants > > > to learn FVWM) can do is to just read the man page, > > > to read the "Unofficial Tutorial" at > > > http://www.zensites.net/fvwm/guide/ > > > > That is my guide and I would like to update it to and make it more > inline of my modern approach and good fvwm pratcies. Though if you > read though the guide you do see I say don't abuse this and in my new > version (its imcomplete and I can't seem to get the motivation to > fine tune it) It would be nice if you could summon the energy and desire to finish this. With the big desktops hurtling mindlessly towards ever more unusable interfaces now is the time for a sensible and infinitely customisable UI like FVWM to shine. I understand all too well that people have lives to live but 40 minutes a day for a couple of weeks would see you finish this quite nicely. It would mean a lot to people who are intimidated by FVWM. As I say, now is the time for FVWM to shine and to capture some of those abandoning the crazy new desktops. People are out there who have an interest in FVWM but need a leg up before they can fully appreciate its technical excellence and flexibility. To those of you withholding yourselves or withdrawing from the project - think again. A lot of work has gone into this window manager and it would be a shame to let it fade into the sunset just now when so many other GUIs are driving people away.
