Re: [fw-general] Release Schedule
Hi, Just to clarify what Layout means? - I'm being told elsewhere that Zend_Layout is being accepted but I assume there's no proposal acceptance yet. I mean we have three varying methods of doing layouts - Zend_View Enhanced, Zend_Layout, and Matthew's Two-Step View - which differ primarily in how and where in the V and C they are executed. It got lost a while back in all the noise generated by the debate between me and Ralph which ended rather abruptly on the list but I'd like to see some consideration towards implementing both. The reasoning is simple enough - both are non-conflicting methods and each facilitates a preferred MVC practice in the community. Both current proposals are also not equal in scope and goals - another point seemingly lost is that Layouts is just one part of Zend_View Enhanced proposes. Those of us preferring View Helpers for reading Models into a View would usually prefer a simpler decorator approach in Zend_View that leaves the Controller out of the equation - we don't really want to be forced to use a multiple Controllers in place of a simple 25 line decorator nor to return to the status quo where we have to subclass Zend_View, adopt a Two-Step View (another custom plugin) or just take a leap and replace it altogether. Contrary to the growing belief, both Layout strategies shouldn't be considered as being in competition. I said very early on that implementing both could be a major plus to the community, and this should be given some weight going forward. Kind regards, Paddy Pádraic Brady http://blog.astrumfutura.com http://www.patternsforphp.com - Original Message From: Aaron D. Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Sent: Monday, July 9, 2007 11:05:35 PM Subject: [fw-general] Release Schedule I see the roadmap, with some of the future things to be implemented in ZF, but is there a release schedule? Specifically I'd like to see when Zend_Layout is coming out. I was told it would be included in 1.1, but when is that due out? Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
Re: [fw-general] Release Schedule
Is this still happening? http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFDEV/Zend_View+Enhancement+VS+Zend_Layout+Throwdown I've never been to a Throwdown. Of course it's on the Wiki so right now I can't check it. Regards, Mark On Wednesday 11 July 2007 08:54, Pádraic Brady wrote: Hi, Just to clarify what Layout means? - I'm being told elsewhere that Zend_Layout is being accepted but I assume there's no proposal acceptance yet. I mean we have three varying methods of doing layouts - Zend_View Enhanced, Zend_Layout, and Matthew's Two-Step View - which differ primarily in how and where in the V and C they are executed. It got lost a while back in all the noise generated by the debate between me and Ralph which ended rather abruptly on the list but I'd like to see some consideration towards implementing both. The reasoning is simple enough - both are non-conflicting methods and each facilitates a preferred MVC practice in the community. Both current proposals are also not equal in scope and goals - another point seemingly lost is that Layouts is just one part of Zend_View Enhanced proposes. Those of us preferring View Helpers for reading Models into a View would usually prefer a simpler decorator approach in Zend_View that leaves the Controller out of the equation - we don't really want to be forced to use a multiple Controllers in place of a simple 25 line decorator nor to return to the status quo where we have to subclass Zend_View, adopt a Two-Step View (another custom plugin) or just take a leap and replace it altogether. Contrary to the growing belief, both Layout strategies shouldn't be considered as being in competition. I said very early on that implementing both could be a major plus to the community, and this should be given some weight going forward. Kind regards, Paddy Pádraic Brady http://blog.astrumfutura.com http://www.patternsforphp.com - Original Message From: Aaron D. Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Sent: Monday, July 9, 2007 11:05:35 PM Subject: [fw-general] Release Schedule I see the roadmap, with some of the future things to be implemented in ZF, but is there a release schedule? Specifically I'd like to see when Zend_Layout is coming out. I was told it would be included in 1.1, but when is that due out? ___ _ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
Re: [fw-general] Release Schedule
Hi Mark, When I checked it last, Ralph had yet to post a response there. If he does, and assuming the Wiki is up of course ;), I'll post another response and set a second question. Paddy Pádraic Brady http://blog.astrumfutura.com http://www.patternsforphp.com - Original Message From: Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:37:13 AM Subject: Re: [fw-general] Release Schedule Is this still happening? http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFDEV/Zend_View+Enhancement+VS+Zend_Layout+Throwdown I've never been to a Throwdown. Of course it's on the Wiki so right now I can't check it. Regards, Mark On Wednesday 11 July 2007 08:54, Pádraic Brady wrote: Hi, Just to clarify what Layout means? - I'm being told elsewhere that Zend_Layout is being accepted but I assume there's no proposal acceptance yet. I mean we have three varying methods of doing layouts - Zend_View Enhanced, Zend_Layout, and Matthew's Two-Step View - which differ primarily in how and where in the V and C they are executed. It got lost a while back in all the noise generated by the debate between me and Ralph which ended rather abruptly on the list but I'd like to see some consideration towards implementing both. The reasoning is simple enough - both are non-conflicting methods and each facilitates a preferred MVC practice in the community. Both current proposals are also not equal in scope and goals - another point seemingly lost is that Layouts is just one part of Zend_View Enhanced proposes. Those of us preferring View Helpers for reading Models into a View would usually prefer a simpler decorator approach in Zend_View that leaves the Controller out of the equation - we don't really want to be forced to use a multiple Controllers in place of a simple 25 line decorator nor to return to the status quo where we have to subclass Zend_View, adopt a Two-Step View (another custom plugin) or just take a leap and replace it altogether. Contrary to the growing belief, both Layout strategies shouldn't be considered as being in competition. I said very early on that implementing both could be a major plus to the community, and this should be given some weight going forward. Kind regards, Paddy Pádraic Brady http://blog.astrumfutura.com http://www.patternsforphp.com - Original Message From: Aaron D. Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Sent: Monday, July 9, 2007 11:05:35 PM Subject: [fw-general] Release Schedule I see the roadmap, with some of the future things to be implemented in ZF, but is there a release schedule? Specifically I'd like to see when Zend_Layout is coming out. I was told it would be included in 1.1, but when is that due out? ___ _ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
Re: [fw-general] Release Schedule
Hey Paddy, I have time for this now, perhaps it would be good to start getting out thoughts on there? Ill go first (if the wiki is up) ;) Pádraic Brady wrote: Hi Mark, When I checked it last, Ralph had yet to post a response there. If he does, and assuming the Wiki is up of course ;), I'll post another response and set a second question. Paddy Pádraic Brady http://blog.astrumfutura.com http://www.patternsforphp.com - Original Message From: Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:37:13 AM Subject: Re: [fw-general] Release Schedule Is this still happening? http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFDEV/Zend_View+Enhancement+VS+Zend_Layout+Throwdown I've never been to a Throwdown. Of course it's on the Wiki so right now I can't check it. Regards, Mark On Wednesday 11 July 2007 08:54, Pádraic Brady wrote: Hi, Just to clarify what Layout means? - I'm being told elsewhere that Zend_Layout is being accepted but I assume there's no proposal acceptance yet. I mean we have three varying methods of doing layouts - Zend_View Enhanced, Zend_Layout, and Matthew's Two-Step View - which differ primarily in how and where in the V and C they are executed. It got lost a while back in all the noise generated by the debate between me and Ralph which ended rather abruptly on the list but I'd like to see some consideration towards implementing both. The reasoning is simple enough - both are non-conflicting methods and each facilitates a preferred MVC practice in the community. Both current proposals are also not equal in scope and goals - another point seemingly lost is that Layouts is just one part of Zend_View Enhanced proposes. Those of us preferring View Helpers for reading Models into a View would usually prefer a simpler decorator approach in Zend_View that leaves the Controller out of the equation - we don't really want to be forced to use a multiple Controllers in place of a simple 25 line decorator nor to return to the status quo where we have to subclass Zend_View, adopt a Two-Step View (another custom plugin) or just take a leap and replace it altogether. Contrary to the growing belief, both Layout strategies shouldn't be considered as being in competition. I said very early on that implementing both could be a major plus to the community, and this should be given some weight going forward. Kind regards, Paddy Pádraic Brady http://blog.astrumfutura.com http://www.patternsforphp.com - Original Message From: Aaron D. Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Sent: Monday, July 9, 2007 11:05:35 PM Subject: [fw-general] Release Schedule I see the roadmap, with some of the future things to be implemented in ZF, but is there a release schedule? Specifically I'd like to see when Zend_Layout is coming out. I was told it would be included in 1.1, but when is that due out? ___ _ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48225/*http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.phpwherever you're surfing.
Re: [fw-general] Release Schedule
No, I don't see Zend_Layout as accepted as is, and I have not been told that. In all truthfulness, I've expressed a concern to Matthew that the development of such component, be it spearheaded by a community member or not, be completely visible to the community as much as possible throughout the process. It can be argued that both proposals have merits. In fact, I didnt fully appreciate the use of partials until I saw your implementation, as an example. At the end of the day, I think it can be said that we all want the best solution. And in finding the best solution, we need to identify where this solution will exist, be it a Composite component in the top level pseudo-namespace, or as a hard coupled feature of an existing component (like the view or the controller, andi mentioned Zend_View_Layout). Whatever the answer, it needs to be scale-able and flexible, and also not loose sight that this framework can AND WILL be used in more environments than just the Web/http. preferred MVC practice in the community. Both current proposals are also not equal in scope and goals - another point seemingly lost is that Layouts is just one part of Zend_View Enhanced proposes. I am hoping this is addressed in the development process. Contrary to the growing belief, both Layout strategies shouldn't be considered as being in competition. I said very early on that implementing both could be a major plus to the community, and this should be given some weight going forward. I actually kinda agree here. BTW. If both implementations were to be implemented, there would have to be a very clear and consise guide to deciding which to use and when, as YES, they both do suit semi-overlapping but different needs. -ralph
Re: [fw-general] Release Schedule
Hi Ralph, Fire away ;), I'll be back online this evening and can likely post a response. The wiki is up for now - how long that lasts is hard to say... Ralph vs Confluence! Paddy Pádraic Brady http://blog.astrumfutura.com http://www.patternsforphp.com - Original Message From: Ralph Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pádraic Brady [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Zend Framework General fw-general@lists.zend.com Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 4:50:06 PM Subject: Re: [fw-general] Release Schedule Hey Paddy, I have time for this now, perhaps it would be good to start getting out thoughts on there? Ill go first (if the wiki is up) ;) Pádraic Brady wrote: Hi Mark, When I checked it last, Ralph had yet to post a response there. If he does, and assuming the Wiki is up of course ;), I'll post another response and set a second question. Paddy Pádraic Brady http://blog.astrumfutura.com http://www.patternsforphp.com - Original Message From: Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:37:13 AM Subject: Re: [fw-general] Release Schedule Is this still happening? http://framework.zend.com/wiki/display/ZFDEV/Zend_View+Enhancement+VS+Zend_Layout+Throwdown I've never been to a Throwdown. Of course it's on the Wiki so right now I can't check it. Regards, Mark On Wednesday 11 July 2007 08:54, Pádraic Brady wrote: Hi, Just to clarify what Layout means? - I'm being told elsewhere that Zend_Layout is being accepted but I assume there's no proposal acceptance yet. I mean we have three varying methods of doing layouts - Zend_View Enhanced, Zend_Layout, and Matthew's Two-Step View - which differ primarily in how and where in the V and C they are executed. It got lost a while back in all the noise generated by the debate between me and Ralph which ended rather abruptly on the list but I'd like to see some consideration towards implementing both. The reasoning is simple enough - both are non-conflicting methods and each facilitates a preferred MVC practice in the community. Both current proposals are also not equal in scope and goals - another point seemingly lost is that Layouts is just one part of Zend_View Enhanced proposes. Those of us preferring View Helpers for reading Models into a View would usually prefer a simpler decorator approach in Zend_View that leaves the Controller out of the equation - we don't really want to be forced to use a multiple Controllers in place of a simple 25 line decorator nor to return to the status quo where we have to subclass Zend_View, adopt a Two-Step View (another custom plugin) or just take a leap and replace it altogether. Contrary to the growing belief, both Layout strategies shouldn't be considered as being in competition. I said very early on that implementing both could be a major plus to the community, and this should be given some weight going forward. Kind regards, Paddy Pádraic Brady http://blog.astrumfutura.com http://www.patternsforphp.com - Original Message From: Aaron D. Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Sent: Monday, July 9, 2007 11:05:35 PM Subject: [fw-general] Release Schedule I see the roadmap, with some of the future things to be implemented in ZF, but is there a release schedule? Specifically I'd like to see when Zend_Layout is coming out. I was told it would be included in 1.1, but when is that due out? ___ _ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48225/*http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.phpwherever you're surfing. Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222
[fw-general] Release Schedule
I see the roadmap, with some of the future things to be implemented in ZF, but is there a release schedule? Specifically I'd like to see when Zend_Layout is coming out. I was told it would be included in 1.1, but when is that due out?
RE: [fw-general] Release Schedule
Hi Aaron, We are spending this week on planning. This includes both defining the product lifecycle (major/minor/mini releases, how we branch, what goes into mini vs. minor, etc...) and also try and pin down owners + priorities for the various features. It will probably not be 100% final by the end of this week but it'll give everyone a clearer idea of how we think we should manage the various version releases, what the rought schedules should look like, etc.. In any case, Zend_View_Layout is high on our priority list and not a very big piece of work (a lot of headway has already been made by the various community members). So I believe this should move forward quickly soon and even if it's not in an official release you'll be able to pull it out of the incubator. Andi -Original Message- From: Aaron D. Campbell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:06 PM To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: [fw-general] Release Schedule I see the roadmap, with some of the future things to be implemented in ZF, but is there a release schedule? Specifically I'd like to see when Zend_Layout is coming out. I was told it would be included in 1.1, but when is that due out?
Re: [fw-general] Release Schedule
Thanks Andi for making Layout a priority (we were getting nervous =P). The next big thing is probably to open up discussion on Zend_Form. There's been some community discussion on the path forward but no real plan as of yet. Is there any specific plans for Zend_Form going forward? The proposal that is in the tracker is somewhat dated. For my vote I'm looking for something that can: - Create forms from an instance of a class or config file (not an abstract-class approach) - Validate/Filter Data - Integrates with the flash messenger and repopulates forms on failed validations (sessions) - Has appropriate view helpers to handle common form scenarios (array binding option lists for example) - Is sufficiently lightweight as to not intrude onto business logic/model logic. (there's been considerable debate on where the validation process stops [the checking for a free username scenario]) I'm sure theres a lot more, so anyone else who has an opinion, speak up. Kevin - Original Message - From: Andi Gutmans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Aaron D. Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED]; fw-general@lists.zend.com Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 7:58 PM Subject: RE: [fw-general] Release Schedule Hi Aaron, We are spending this week on planning. This includes both defining the product lifecycle (major/minor/mini releases, how we branch, what goes into mini vs. minor, etc...) and also try and pin down owners + priorities for the various features. It will probably not be 100% final by the end of this week but it'll give everyone a clearer idea of how we think we should manage the various version releases, what the rought schedules should look like, etc.. In any case, Zend_View_Layout is high on our priority list and not a very big piece of work (a lot of headway has already been made by the various community members). So I believe this should move forward quickly soon and even if it's not in an official release you'll be able to pull it out of the incubator. Andi -Original Message- From: Aaron D. Campbell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:06 PM To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: [fw-general] Release Schedule I see the roadmap, with some of the future things to be implemented in ZF, but is there a release schedule? Specifically I'd like to see when Zend_Layout is coming out. I was told it would be included in 1.1, but when is that due out?
RE: [fw-general] Release Schedule
Cool. Don't forget to give us a case-study once you're done :) Andi -Original Message- From: Aaron D. Campbell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 7:49 PM To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: Re: [fw-general] Release Schedule Awesome. I have a current application that's been expanded over and over. We're hoping to start rewriting it in a couple months, and are trying to plan everything out. Hopefully we'll see a good release of Layout before then (or at least see it completed enough to use). Andi Gutmans wrote: Hi Aaron, We are spending this week on planning. This includes both defining the product lifecycle (major/minor/mini releases, how we branch, what goes into mini vs. minor, etc...) and also try and pin down owners + priorities for the various features. It will probably not be 100% final by the end of this week but it'll give everyone a clearer idea of how we think we should manage the various version releases, what the rought schedules should look like, etc.. In any case, Zend_View_Layout is high on our priority list and not a very big piece of work (a lot of headway has already been made by the various community members). So I believe this should move forward quickly soon and even if it's not in an official release you'll be able to pull it out of the incubator. Andi
