Re: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Philip Iezzi wrote: > (...) > See the difference? > Both are ugly in some way if I want to stick with this template style full > of opening and closing tags. But at least, in a Smarty-template we can > provide "real" newlines while they would get cut off by PHP's closing tag in > a regular PHP/Zend_View-template. Using PHP_EOL is just an ugly workaround. Yeah, I gotcha. >> I don't understand exactly where they look messy. Details. ;-) Point >> taken, HTML/PHP mixed doesn't look pretty -- then again, when people >> use my website, they view it through a browser which renders it all >> pretty and they don't have to look at the source code. > > Right. But that's not the point. We are talking about what could make our > lives easier, the developers lives. The end user anyway gets a nice and > clean output served by us. > It would be really nice if PHP folks could provide us with an ini-setting to > turn off this (in my eyes) nasty behavior. I think I just understood what you're on about. I know it can be painful, but you could join #php.pecl on efnet and talk to the developers to see if they have a fix, or if they would be willing to implement one. I'd do that before opening on a feature request on bugs.php.net. HTH, Till
Re: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
I think you can use views all the way.
For example:
Dear escape($this->firstName)?>
Thanks for registrering at siteName?>!
Cheers,
Webmaster
And in your controller, you'd do:
$this->view->assign('firstName', $firstName);
$this->view->assign('siteName', 'example');
$emailBody = $this->view->render('email');
// continue with Zend_Mail etc. here
Sure we can use Zend_View wherever we like. I was not worried about
that. But thanks anyway for the snippet.
Why does nobody mention the (in my eyes) horrible bug (it's
definitely not a
feature!) in PHP itself that was last discussed in 1998 and then
somehow
accepted by the community as a "feature": PHP eating newlines after
the
closing tag
http://brian.moonspot.net/php-history-newline-closing-tag
I think that is why people like to omit the closing tag.
Generally, there are ways to make it more pretty or to force a format.
Can you give a more detailed example as of where your problem is?
The XML output example on http://brian.moonspot.net/php-history-newline-closing-tag
was quite a good example.
It's just about complexity or ugliness of our view scripts. Here's my
emailBody example:
-
Your address:
{if $title != 'Firma'}{$title}
{/if}{if $company != ''}{$company}
{/if}
{$firstname} {$lastname}
{if $special1 != ''}{$special1}
{/if}
{$address}
{if $pobox != ''}{$pobox}
{/if}
{if $country != ''}{$country}-{/if}{$zipcode} {$city}
Your access to the world:
username : {$username}
password : {$pw}
-
Your address:
title != 'Firma'): ?>title?>php endif; ?>
company)): ?>company?>php endif; ?>
firstname?> lastname?>
special1)): ?>special1?>>
address?>
pobox)): ?>pobox?>endif; ?>
country)): ?>country?>->zipcode?> city?>
Your access to the world:
username : username?>
password : pw?>
-
See the difference?
Both are ugly in some way if I want to stick with this template style
full of opening and closing tags. But at least, in a Smarty-template
we can provide "real" newlines while they would get cut off by PHP's
closing tag in a regular PHP/Zend_View-template. Using PHP_EOL is just
an ugly workaround.
I don't understand exactly where they look messy. Details. ;-) Point
taken, HTML/PHP mixed doesn't look pretty -- then again, when people
use my website, they view it through a browser which renders it all
pretty and they don't have to look at the source code.
Right. But that's not the point. We are talking about what could make
our lives easier, the developers lives. The end user anyway gets a
nice and clean output served by us.
It would be really nice if PHP folks could provide us with an ini-
setting to turn off this (in my eyes) nasty behavior.
Cheers,
Philip
Re: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Philip Iezzi wrote:
> I partially agree with the "Smarty is no longer needed" opinion. During the
> last months I changed all my ZF projects back to Zend_Layout/Zend_View,
> eliminating Smarty. But I still need Smarty for simple email body
> templates...
I think you can use views all the way.
For example:
Dear escape($this->firstName)?>
Thanks for registrering at siteName?>!
Cheers,
Webmaster
And in your controller, you'd do:
$this->view->assign('firstName', $firstName);
$this->view->assign('siteName', 'example');
$emailBody = $this->view->render('email');
// continue with Zend_Mail etc. here
> Why does nobody mention the (in my eyes) horrible bug (it's definitely not a
> feature!) in PHP itself that was last discussed in 1998 and then somehow
> accepted by the community as a "feature": PHP eating newlines after the
> closing tag
> http://brian.moonspot.net/php-history-newline-closing-tag
I think that is why people like to omit the closing tag.
Generally, there are ways to make it more pretty or to force a format.
Can you give a more detailed example as of where your problem is?
> AFAIK, PHP still doesn't give us the option to turn off this nasty behavior.
> I didn't hear of an option in PHP 5.3 either. Please let me know, if I'm
> wrong.
> Some Smarty templates really start to look messy with all those extra
> newlines after closing tags if I switch from Smarty to Zend_View.
I don't understand exactly where they look messy. Details. ;-) Point
taken, HTML/PHP mixed doesn't look pretty -- then again, when people
use my website, they view it through a browser which renders it all
pretty and they don't have to look at the source code.
HTH,
Till
Re: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
I partially agree with the "Smarty is no longer needed" opinion. During the last months I changed all my ZF projects back to Zend_Layout/Zend_View, eliminating Smarty. But I still need Smarty for simple email body templates... Why does nobody mention the (in my eyes) horrible bug (it's definitely not a feature!) in PHP itself that was last discussed in 1998 and then somehow accepted by the community as a "feature": PHP eating newlines after the closing tag http://brian.moonspot.net/php-history-newline-closing-tag AFAIK, PHP still doesn't give us the option to turn off this nasty behavior. I didn't hear of an option in PHP 5.3 either. Please let me know, if I'm wrong. Some Smarty templates really start to look messy with all those extra newlines after closing tags if I switch from Smarty to Zend_View. On 28.03.2009, at 08:33, swilhelm wrote: I found this blog http://hasin.wordpress.com/2008/01/05/once-upon-a-time-there-was-smarty/ post by Hasin Hayder very compelling. -- Philip Iezzi Onlime Webhosting http://www.onlime.ch
Re: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
I found this blog http://hasin.wordpress.com/2008/01/05/once-upon-a-time-there-was-smarty/ post by Hasin Hayder very compelling. Andrei Iarus wrote: > > Hello there, > > A lot have been discussed, but anyway it is still difficult to decide. A > project is to be developed, and more persons will have to work at it. > Those persons will have some experience in ZF and probably also in Smarty. > The problem is: what are the advantages and disadvantages of using ZF > Template Engine vs. Smarty. How much of you use Smarty? Why do you prefer > Smart/Zend_View? > > I see as advatages for Zend_View: > 1. Some packages from ZF use Zend_View (Zend Layout, Zend Form, other > examples?), so if we would use Smarty and use those packages (which we'll > do), we will need to extend the abstract classes. Also it is possible that > new comming features will use Zend_View. > 2. Easier to learn than Smarty (right?), as it is clean PHP. > > As an advantage for Smarty: > 1. It is more popular than Zend_View (right?) . > 2. It has those built-in common-used functions (ex. excaping functions). > 3. One can say it is easier/more pleasant to develop in Smarty (it is for > a long time a stand-alone V(iew) component (from MVC) ) > > What would you decide if you were in my place? > > Thank you very much in advance. > > > > -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Zend-View-vs.-Smarty-tp22705952p22754388.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Alex Howansky wrote:
>
>> A lot have been discussed, but anyway it is still difficult to decide. A
>> project is to be developed, and more persons will have to work at it. Those
>> persons will have some experience in ZF and probably also in Smarty. The
>> problem is: what are the advantages and disadvantages of using ZF Template
>> Engine vs. Smarty. How much of you use Smarty? Why do you prefer
>> Smart/Zend_View?
>
> I think the greatest advantage to using a non-PHP templating engine in your
> view layer is that you can force logical isolation between your designers
> and your programmers. This is especially important if you have untrusted or
> external designers providing input for your product. I.e., you do not want
> your designers to be able to do things like this in a view template:
>
>
> unlink('/path/to/file');
>
> $db = new PDO('...');
> $db->query('drop table ... ');
>
> ?>
>
> Cheers,
> Alex
>
I think this is another problem it is trying to solve. With code
review, you can easily get rid off that. And as Bradley mentioned, in
many circumstances you start allowing {php} to shortcut internals.
IMHO -- if you can't trust the people you work with, you need to work
with someone else. Code review is always to your advantage.
Till
RE: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
My first few years designing procedural applications there wasn't a single project that didn't incorporate some sort of separation of programming / display logic mostly using Smarty. I think the bottom line for me is the separation of the two is the bottom line, mixing PHP with HTML makes the code unmanageable and ugly. Obviously speed wise Zend_View has a major advantage especially considering Zend Framework OOP model eats up more cpu cycles than simple procedural stuff. Again after using Smarty for many years I've come to the realization that it's more elegant to use a pure PHP templating engine, even when doing procedural stuff I use an extremely simple pure PHP templating class. In my templates I try to eliminate as much PHP as possible concentrating on doing as much business logic in my controller or wherever before passing on the data to the display layer. Zend_View rocks it's the obvious choice for me. Thomas Shaw tmsms...@tx.rr.com php.co...@tx.rr.com From: Andrei Iarus [mailto:poni1...@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:31 AM To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty Hello there, A lot have been discussed, but anyway it is still difficult to decide. A project is to be developed, and more persons will have to work at it. Those persons will have some experience in ZF and probably also in Smarty. The problem is: what are the advantages and disadvantages of using ZF Template Engine vs. Smarty. How much of you use Smarty? Why do you prefer Smart/Zend_View? I see as advatages for Zend_View: 1. Some packages from ZF use Zend_View (Zend Layout, Zend Form, other examples?), so if we would use Smarty and use those packages (which we'll do), we will need to extend the abstract classes. Also it is possible that new comming features will use Zend_View. 2. Easier to learn than Smarty (right?), as it is clean PHP. As an advantage for Smarty: 1. It is more popular than Zend_View (right?) . 2. It has those built-in common-used functions (ex. excaping functions). 3. One can say it is easier/more pleasant to develop in Smarty (it is for a long time a stand-alone V(iew) component (from MVC) ) What would you decide if you were in my place? Thank you very much in advance.
Re: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
Smarty is past, is on PHP 4 ages.
Let's forget about it... There are plenty of alternatives (let's name
just PHPTal) into same area...
Cristian
Matthew Ratzloff wrote:
A friend and I set up this website one evening about a year ago
because Smarty had pissed us off one time too many in our (now former)
jobs.
http://www.nosmarty.net/
-Matt
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Bradley Holt
mailto:bradley.h...@foundline.com>> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Alex Howansky mailto:a...@birdview.com>> wrote:
>
>> A lot have been discussed, but anyway it is still difficult to
decide. A
>> project is to be developed, and more persons will have to work
at it. Those
>> persons will have some experience in ZF and probably also in
Smarty. The
>> problem is: what are the advantages and disadvantages of using
ZF Template
>> Engine vs. Smarty. How much of you use Smarty? Why do you prefer
>> Smart/Zend_View?
>
> I think the greatest advantage to using a non-PHP templating
engine in your
> view layer is that you can force logical isolation between your
designers
> and your programmers. This is especially important if you have
untrusted or
> external designers providing input for your product. I.e., you
do not want
> your designers to be able to do things like this in a view template:
>
>
> unlink('/path/to/file');
>
> $db = new PDO('...');
> $db->query('drop table ... ');
>
> ?>
>
Yes, but how many Smarty setups end up allowing the {php} tag because
there's something that they can't do in Smarty or it is easier to do
directly in PHP? My guess is that this is pretty common and, when it's
enabled, you're back to needing to trust the external designers. If
you're going to have untrusted input, I'm not sure that the view
script or templating layer is the appropriate place to handle this
untrusted input (I mean the view script or templating layer *itself*;
not *within* the view script or templating layer where handling
untrusted input is, in fact, perfectly appropriate).
This brings up an interesting point. Perhaps there's interest in
allowing/disallowing specific functionality within ZF view scripts?
I'm not sure how feasible this is from a technical point-of-view, but
perhaps it's something worth proposing if someone has a need for this
ability. It's not something I need (I trust the person working in my
view scripts), but sounds like it may be of interest to some.
Thanks,
Bradley
--
Bradley Holt
bradley.h...@foundline.com
--
Best regards,
Cristian Bichis
www.zftutorials.com | www.zfforums.com | www.zftalk.com | www.zflinks.com
Re: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
A friend and I set up this website one evening about a year ago because
Smarty had pissed us off one time too many in our (now former) jobs.
http://www.nosmarty.net/
-Matt
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Bradley Holt
wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Alex Howansky wrote:
> >
> >> A lot have been discussed, but anyway it is still difficult to decide. A
> >> project is to be developed, and more persons will have to work at it.
> Those
> >> persons will have some experience in ZF and probably also in Smarty. The
> >> problem is: what are the advantages and disadvantages of using ZF
> Template
> >> Engine vs. Smarty. How much of you use Smarty? Why do you prefer
> >> Smart/Zend_View?
> >
> > I think the greatest advantage to using a non-PHP templating engine in
> your
> > view layer is that you can force logical isolation between your designers
> > and your programmers. This is especially important if you have untrusted
> or
> > external designers providing input for your product. I.e., you do not
> want
> > your designers to be able to do things like this in a view template:
> >
> > >
> > unlink('/path/to/file');
> >
> > $db = new PDO('...');
> > $db->query('drop table ... ');
> >
> > ?>
> >
>
> Yes, but how many Smarty setups end up allowing the {php} tag because
> there's something that they can't do in Smarty or it is easier to do
> directly in PHP? My guess is that this is pretty common and, when it's
> enabled, you're back to needing to trust the external designers. If
> you're going to have untrusted input, I'm not sure that the view
> script or templating layer is the appropriate place to handle this
> untrusted input (I mean the view script or templating layer *itself*;
> not *within* the view script or templating layer where handling
> untrusted input is, in fact, perfectly appropriate).
>
> This brings up an interesting point. Perhaps there's interest in
> allowing/disallowing specific functionality within ZF view scripts?
> I'm not sure how feasible this is from a technical point-of-view, but
> perhaps it's something worth proposing if someone has a need for this
> ability. It's not something I need (I trust the person working in my
> view scripts), but sounds like it may be of interest to some.
>
> Thanks,
> Bradley
>
> --
> Bradley Holt
> bradley.h...@foundline.com
>
Re: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Alex Howansky wrote:
>
>> A lot have been discussed, but anyway it is still difficult to decide. A
>> project is to be developed, and more persons will have to work at it. Those
>> persons will have some experience in ZF and probably also in Smarty. The
>> problem is: what are the advantages and disadvantages of using ZF Template
>> Engine vs. Smarty. How much of you use Smarty? Why do you prefer
>> Smart/Zend_View?
>
> I think the greatest advantage to using a non-PHP templating engine in your
> view layer is that you can force logical isolation between your designers
> and your programmers. This is especially important if you have untrusted or
> external designers providing input for your product. I.e., you do not want
> your designers to be able to do things like this in a view template:
>
>
> unlink('/path/to/file');
>
> $db = new PDO('...');
> $db->query('drop table ... ');
>
> ?>
>
Yes, but how many Smarty setups end up allowing the {php} tag because
there's something that they can't do in Smarty or it is easier to do
directly in PHP? My guess is that this is pretty common and, when it's
enabled, you're back to needing to trust the external designers. If
you're going to have untrusted input, I'm not sure that the view
script or templating layer is the appropriate place to handle this
untrusted input (I mean the view script or templating layer *itself*;
not *within* the view script or templating layer where handling
untrusted input is, in fact, perfectly appropriate).
This brings up an interesting point. Perhaps there's interest in
allowing/disallowing specific functionality within ZF view scripts?
I'm not sure how feasible this is from a technical point-of-view, but
perhaps it's something worth proposing if someone has a need for this
ability. It's not something I need (I trust the person working in my
view scripts), but sounds like it may be of interest to some.
Thanks,
Bradley
--
Bradley Holt
bradley.h...@foundline.com
Re: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
Before there were MVC frameworks available in PHP, Smarty was very useful. It helped keep business logic separate from presentation. However, within an MVC framework like Zend Framework, Smarty is no longer needed and actually adds unnecessary complication. As far as I know (and yes, I used to use Smarty) everything that was possible with Smarty is now possible with ZF MVC and view scripts. Smarty solved the wrong problem (I think someone else said this, sorry that I can't remember who). The problem isn't mixing PHP with presentation (the problem that Smarty solved), the problem is mixing business logic and presentation (the problem that MVC and view scripts solve). Yes, Smarty helped keep your business logic separate from your presentation layer and it did a good job of this. However, there's no reason to keep PHP out of your presentation layer (and lots of good reasons *to* use it in your presentation layer) if you have another way to keep business logic and presentation separate - which is exactly what ZF view scripts do. Thanks, Bradley On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Andrei Iarus wrote: > > Hello there, > > A lot have been discussed, but anyway it is still difficult to decide. A > project is to be developed, and more persons will have to work at it. Those > persons will have some experience in ZF and probably also in Smarty. The > problem is: what are the advantages and disadvantages of using ZF Template > Engine vs. Smarty. How much of you use Smarty? Why do you prefer > Smart/Zend_View? > > I see as advatages for Zend_View: > 1. Some packages from ZF use Zend_View (Zend Layout, Zend Form, other > examples?), so if we would use Smarty and use those packages (which we'll > do), we will need to extend the abstract classes. Also it is possible that > new comming features will use Zend_View. > 2. Easier to learn than Smarty (right?), as it is clean PHP. > > As an advantage for Smarty: > 1. It is more popular than Zend_View (right?) . > 2. It has those built-in common-used functions (ex. excaping functions). > 3. One can say it is easier/more pleasant to develop in Smarty (it is for a > long time a stand-alone V(iew) component (from MVC) ) > > What would you decide if you were in my place? > > Thank you very much in advance. -- Bradley Holt bradley.h...@foundline.com
Re: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
A lot have been discussed, but anyway it is still difficult to decide. A
project is to be developed, and more persons will have to work at it.
Those persons will have some experience in ZF and probably also in
Smarty. The problem is: what are the advantages and disadvantages of
using ZF Template Engine vs. Smarty. How much of you use Smarty? Why do
you prefer Smart/Zend_View?
I think the greatest advantage to using a non-PHP templating engine in
your view layer is that you can force logical isolation between your
designers and your programmers. This is especially important if you have
untrusted or external designers providing input for your product. I.e.,
you do not want your designers to be able to do things like this in a
view template:
query('drop table ... ');
?>
Cheers,
Alex
smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Andrei Iarus wrote:
> Hello there,
>
> A lot have been discussed, but anyway it is still difficult to decide. A
> project is to be developed, and more persons will have to work at it. Those
> persons will have some experience in ZF and probably also in Smarty. The
> problem is: what are the advantages and disadvantages of using ZF Template
> Engine vs. Smarty. How much of you use Smarty? Why do you prefer
> Smart/Zend_View?
>
> I see as advatages for Zend_View:
> 1. Some packages from ZF use Zend_View (Zend Layout, Zend Form, other
> examples?), so if we would use Smarty and use those packages (which we'll
> do), we will need to extend the abstract classes. Also it is possible that
> new comming features will use Zend_View.
For example Zend_Form can render straight HTML, so there's no need to
extend the classes. You just 'echo' your form:
$form = new My_Form; (My_Form extends Zend_Form etc.)
echo $form; // renders the complete form
> 2. Easier to learn than Smarty (right?), as it is clean PHP.
Generally, no. It's not easier to learn and also not clean PHP. Smarty
has its own markup therefor adds another layer on top of PHP and HTML.
I have my doubts that this is easier to learn than a bunch of PHP
commands to do some basic loops and echo some variables. That's pretty
much all you should do in a view anyway.
If you are concerned about your designer you could always wrap more
complex code into a Zend_View_Helper (I think the equivalent to a
modifier/insert in Smarty) and have them "echo" this, e.g.: echo
$this->MyHelper();
I think the biggest advantage of Zend_View is that it's so integrated
into many components, the API is pretty clean and it's all PHP5 code.
The last bit is kind of important since 5.3 is literally around the
corner. ;-)
I think Smarty currently maintains BC with PHP4 -- I could be wrong though.
> As an advantage for Smarty:
> 1. It is more popular than Zend_View (right?) .
Depends also! If you been doing websites for 10 years, maybe. ;-) You
can argue either way. If someone hasn't done any ZF work yet and
neither did any Smarty, I'd call it: double the pleasure. ;-) (Irony!)
> 2. It has those built-in common-used functions (ex. excaping functions).
There's view helpers and pretty comprehensive chain of validators and
filters that achieve the same/better results. ;-) The most basic is
escape($this->foo); ?> in your view file.
> 3. One can say it is easier/more pleasant to develop in Smarty (it is for a
> long time a stand-alone V(iew) component (from MVC) )
I disagree here. I've used Smart extensively. And I don't mean to
offend anyone (especially all the people who worked on Smarty over the
years) because I really loved using it back then. If I used it in a ZF
app with MVC now, I would double the view layer basically and add more
to the code base than necessary.
The code gets more complex for now reason. Everything you want from
Smarty is available in the ZF -- cache, etc. too. All, sans the weird
{foreach} and {section} syntax which I still need to look up today.
;-) This in the end makes it harder for other developers to dive into
it.
The bottom-line is that it's a personal preference too. I generally
try to avoid PHP4 code nowadays and I'm also not on top of the recent
Smarty developments (I noticed that they are releasing new versions
though).
Hope that helps!
Cheers,
Till
> What would you decide if you were in my place?
>
> Thank you very much in advance.
>
[fw-general] Zend View vs. Smarty
Hello there, A lot have been discussed, but anyway it is still difficult to decide. A project is to be developed, and more persons will have to work at it. Those persons will have some experience in ZF and probably also in Smarty. The problem is: what are the advantages and disadvantages of using ZF Template Engine vs. Smarty. How much of you use Smarty? Why do you prefer Smart/Zend_View? I see as advatages for Zend_View: 1. Some packages from ZF use Zend_View (Zend Layout, Zend Form, other examples?), so if we would use Smarty and use those packages (which we'll do), we will need to extend the abstract classes. Also it is possible that new comming features will use Zend_View. 2. Easier to learn than Smarty (right?), as it is clean PHP. As an advantage for Smarty: 1. It is more popular than Zend_View (right?) . 2. It has those built-in common-used functions (ex. excaping functions). 3. One can say it is easier/more pleasant to develop in Smarty (it is for a long time a stand-alone V(iew) component (from MVC) ) What would you decide if you were in my place? Thank you very much in advance.
