Re: Mac keyboards (was: Shift-apple-cmd-power key combo?)
And don't get me started on the following issue: the popular shortcuts in programs (Photoshop, for example) are activated: - by Ctrl (Ctrl-S) on Windows. Ctrl is the leftmost key on most PC keyboards. - by Command (Command-S) on Mac. Command is the key just left to the spacebar on Apple keyboards. - by Windows key on a PC keyboard connected to a Mac. Windows key is exactly in between the keys mentioned above. - by Ctrl key on Mac keyboard connected to a PC. Talk about confusion and inability to use your muscle memory! I don't blame any platform for this problem, and I see no simple solution to it [1], but this is 20 years after both platforms started and we're still suffering... Simply put, the keyboard shortcuts for many of the actions we now take for granted were already in the first Macintosh (128k, back in 1984). These included Cmd-c for copy, Cmd-v for paste, Cmd-a for select all and such. When Windows appeared a few years later, they decided to use the same letters, but alas the Command key was not present on pc keyboards (as is not, to this day), so they used Control instead. Then macs started to come with a Control key, as well a Command key. There was also no Alt key in macs. There was an Option key, which was marked with the railway symbol from early on. Nowadays, it is marked Alt, but old time mac users (like me :-)) still think of it as the Option key. Kind of strange, when you tell someone something like drag the icon while holding Command and Option to create an alias and people say I don't have an Option key in my keyboard. Luís Sequeira -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:G-Books@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com ---
Mac keyboards (was: Shift-apple-cmd-power key combo?)
You may have the keys mixed up. The Apple key is the Command key. I believe Apple should be at fault here. On PCs every key had one designation and it was perfectly clear which is which. On my PowerBook G4, UK edition: - the ctrl key is Ctrl or ^ (not labeled) - the alt key is Alt or the railway symbol - the command key is Command (not labeled) or the Apple symbol or the cloverleaf symbol - the shift key is Shift (not labeled) or the open arrow - there are two enter/return keys, each with own symbol And my personal favourite is the escape key, which is Esc, but also has a symbol (a circle with an arrow pointing out). This symbol is not present on my keyboard, but I found it (and only it) in one of the (older) programs, and its also shown in the Force Quit menu item. Took me 10 minutes to figure out which key that might be. Now, weren't Macs supposed to be easy to use...? What's the rationale behind these confusing double or triple designations? Marcin Wichary e:\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary Attached w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/gui Graphical User Interface gallery w:\ www.10yearsofbeingboring.com 10 years of Being Boring w:\ www.usability.pl Usability.pl -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:G-Books@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com ---
Re: Mac keyboards (was: Shift-apple-cmd-power key combo?)
At 9:16 AM +0100 1/4/05, Marcin Wichary wrote: You may have the keys mixed up. The Apple key is the Command key. I believe Apple should be at fault here. On PCs every key had one designation and it was perfectly clear which is which. On my PowerBook G4, UK edition: - the ctrl key is Ctrl or ^ (not labeled) - the alt key is Alt or the railway symbol - the command key is Command (not labeled) or the Apple symbol or the cloverleaf symbol - the shift key is Shift (not labeled) or the open arrow - there are two enter/return keys, each with own symbol And my personal favourite is the escape key, which is Esc, but also has a symbol (a circle with an arrow pointing out). This symbol is not present on my keyboard, but I found it (and only it) in one of the (older) programs, and its also shown in the Force Quit menu item. Took me 10 minutes to figure out which key that might be. On my recent Apple keyboards I have: control, option (with a tiny alt in the upper left corner), what Apple calls the Command key that has an Open-Apple in the lower left corner and the cloverleaf in the lower right corner, space bar, Command, option, control The alt was added to the option key so that people used to pc machines would know what the key did The escape key just has esc on it. I suspect that the escape key you have is due to some EU decree for the multiple language situation. History Lesson: Originally, what is now the left Command key was called the Open-Apple key on the Apple II keyboards. The right Command key was called the Closed-Apple key and the apple was a solid one. Both of these modifier keys did different actions. When the Mac came out it dropped the Closed-Apple key but kept the Open-Apple key, added the cloverleaf, and called it the Command key. BTW, there is a name for the cloverleaf symbol; it is something like Quadrial, Quadrigale, IIRC -- Sincerely, Dennis B. Swaney Windows is a command-line OS with a GUI shell while Mac System 10 is ... oh, never mind. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:G-Books@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com ---
Re: Mac keyboards (was: Shift-apple-cmd-power key combo?)
On Jan 4, 2005, at 8:03 AM, Dennis B. Swaney wrote: And my personal favourite is the escape key, which is Esc, but also has a symbol (a circle with an arrow pointing out). This symbol is not present on my keyboard, but I found it (and only it) in one of the (older) programs, and its also shown in the Force Quit menu item. Took me 10 minutes to figure out which key that might be. On my recent Apple keyboards I have: control, option (with a tiny alt in the upper left corner), what Apple calls the Command key that has an Open-Apple in the lower left corner and the cloverleaf in the lower right corner, space bar, Command, option, control The alt was added to the option key so that people used to pc machines would know what the key did The escape key just has esc on it. I suspect that the escape key you have is due to some EU decree for the multiple language situation. Marcin means that the symbols he/she describes are used in the menus such as in Apple-Force Quit. The esc key in Force Quit is depicted with a symbol: a circle with an arrow pointing out. When I first started using OS X I didn't know what the heck that symbol was. In the Finder go to the Help menu and type in 'Symbols for special keys' and go to that help document to see all the symbols for keys. Turtle-Bear -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:G-Books@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com ---
Re: Mac keyboards (was: Shift-apple-cmd-power key combo?)
On 1/4/05 12:16 AM, Marcin Wichary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You may have the keys mixed up. The Apple key is the Command key. I believe Apple should be at fault here. On PCs every key had one designation and it was perfectly clear which is which. Actually, I think Apple's keys are very clearly marked and easy to identify. I simply wasn't paying attention and made an error when I typed them into my note. I meant to type in the option key but instead typed in Apple and Cmd keys which are one in the same. -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:G-Books@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com ---
Re: Mac keyboards (was: Shift-apple-cmd-power key combo?)
At 7:03 AM -0800 1/4/05, Dennis B. Swaney wrote: History Lesson: Originally, what is now the left Command key was called the Open-Apple key on the Apple II keyboards. The right Command key was called the Closed-Apple key and the apple was a solid one. Both of these modifier keys did different actions. When the Mac came out it dropped the Closed-Apple key but kept the Open-Apple key, added the cloverleaf, and called it the Command key. BTW, there is a name for the cloverleaf symbol; it is something like Quadrial, Quadrigale, IIRC The first Macs had just the Cloverleaf symbol, it was sometime later that the Apple was added. Apple wanted to call it the Command key and went looking for an international symbol that applied. The Cloverleaf was the closest they could find. I remember when I first started helping out at my daughters' school and kept getting confused when people referred to the Apple key. Up to that point I had used a Mac 512K, Plus and IIsi and as far as I can recall they all had jut the Cloverleaf symbol on the Command key. -- -- Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:G-Books@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com ---
Re: Mac keyboards (was: Shift-apple-cmd-power key combo?)
In the Finder go to the Help menu and type in 'Symbols for special keys' and go to that help document to see all the symbols for keys. In my field (interaction design) there's a saying that if something needs a help screen, it's badly designed in the first place. I don't have many problems with distinguishing/understand the special keys anymore... but it still takes me much more mental effort than I think is necessary. And I suspect that newcomers to Macs might have big problems in some situations... (aforementioned Force Quit, for example). Marcin Wichary e:\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary Attached w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/gui Graphical User Interface gallery w:\ www.10yearsofbeingboring.com 10 years of Being Boring w:\ www.usability.pl Usability.pl -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:G-Books@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com ---
Re: Mac keyboards (was: Shift-apple-cmd-power key combo?)
Actually, I think Apple's keys are very clearly marked and easy to identify. I simply wasn't paying attention and made an error when I typed them into my note. I meant to type in the option key but instead typed in Apple and Cmd keys which are one in the same. This is/was of course not aimed at you personally... although I can't help but wonder if the keys had just one designation each, would the likelihood of you making the same mistake be the same? I also believe that the alt designation is inconsistent... It's above the railway symbol, suggesting that it requires shifting to activate. Why couldn't the two symbols be put next to each other, like on the command key? Marcin Wichary e:\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary Attached w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/gui Graphical User Interface gallery w:\ www.10yearsofbeingboring.com 10 years of Being Boring w:\ www.usability.pl Usability.pl -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:G-Books@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com ---
Re: Mac keyboards (was: Shift-apple-cmd-power key combo?)
The alt was added to the option key so that people used to pc machines would know what the key did Could you elaborate on that, please? The way I see it it doesn't do the thing many PC users would expect it to do, which is activating menu items with the corresponding letter underlined. AFAIK the Alt key on the Macs is used for special characters/diacritics, which is an entirely different purpose...? And don't get me started on the following issue: the popular shortcuts in programs (Photoshop, for example) are activated: - by Ctrl (Ctrl-S) on Windows. Ctrl is the leftmost key on most PC keyboards. - by Command (Command-S) on Mac. Command is the key just left to the spacebar on Apple keyboards. - by Windows key on a PC keyboard connected to a Mac. Windows key is exactly in between the keys mentioned above. - by Ctrl key on Mac keyboard connected to a PC. Talk about confusion and inability to use your muscle memory! I don't blame any platform for this problem, and I see no simple solution to it [1], but this is 20 years after both platforms started and we're still suffering... [1] a small help would be the keyboards detecting the platform and remapping accordingly... but what about stuff as Virtual PC? or Remote Desktop connection to a PC? Marcin Wichary e:\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary Attached w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/gui Graphical User Interface gallery w:\ www.10yearsofbeingboring.com 10 years of Being Boring w:\ www.usability.pl Usability.pl -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:G-Books@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com ---
Re: Mac keyboards (was: Shift-apple-cmd-power key combo?)
On Jan 4, 2005, at 11:32 AM, Marcin Wichary wrote: This is/was of course not aimed at you personally... although I can't help but wonder if the keys had just one designation each, would the likelihood of you making the same mistake be the same? because one refers to the Mac keyboard, and the other to what this key is called on other systems. I also believe that the alt designation is inconsistent... It's above the railway symbol, suggesting that it requires shifting to activate. Why couldn't the two symbols be put next to each other, like on the command key? Likely because the key is smaller physically than the command key, and it would come out 'optionalt'. At least it is on my old Sawtooth-era keyboard. (it also says Option and Alt...no 'railway' symbol. That symbol is also not on current G5 keyboards, either, which really sucks, since that make the menu designation completely unintelligible.) -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pha acy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:G-Books@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com ---
Re: Mac keyboards (was: Shift-apple-cmd-power key combo?)
This is/was of course not aimed at you personally... although I can't help but wonder if the keys had just one designation each, would the likelihood of you making the same mistake be the same? because one refers to the Mac keyboard, and the other to what this key is called on other systems. I beg to disagree. Apple/cloverleaf/command key has three official designations, neither of which appears on any PC systems. Function-wise, Apple's Alt has nothing to do with Windows' Alt, etc. Even if your argument was true, what would be the reason to do that? Likely because the key is smaller physically than the command key, and it would come out 'optionalt'. At least it is on my old Sawtooth-era keyboard. (it also says Option and Alt...no 'railway' symbol. That symbol is also not on current G5 keyboards, either, which really sucks, since that make the menu designation completely unintelligible.) That's exactly my point... It just seems to be a big mess to me. Marcin Wichary e:\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary Attached w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/gui Graphical User Interface gallery w:\ www.10yearsofbeingboring.com 10 years of Being Boring w:\ www.usability.pl Usability.pl -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:G-Books@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com ---
Re: Mac keyboards (was: Shift-apple-cmd-power key combo?)
On 1/4/05 10:32 AM, Marcin Wichary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I meant to type in the option key but instead typed in Apple and Cmd keys which are one in the same. This is/was of course not aimed at you personally... although I can't help but wonder if the keys had just one designation each, would the likelihood of you making the same mistake be the same? Hi Marcin, I know what you are saying but this really was just a case of being exhausted at the time I wrote the note and not catching my error before I sent it. :-) Amber -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:G-Books@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com ---
Re: Mac keyboards (was: Shift-apple-cmd-power key combo?)
I know what you are saying but this really was just a case of being exhausted at the time I wrote the note and not catching my error before I sent it. :-) Got it. :) I still wish (think) it could (should) be as simple as it once was... http://www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/about/portfolio/posters/ macintosh20yearslater/pics/04 (by the way, what did the original Option key morph into?) Marcin Wichary e:\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary Attached w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/gui Graphical User Interface gallery w:\ www.10yearsofbeingboring.com 10 years of Being Boring w:\ www.usability.pl Usability.pl -- G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com | Refurbished Drives | -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks | CDRWs on Sale! | Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html G-Books list info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:G-Books@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/ --- iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com ---
