Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-15 Thread Bruce Johnson 
On Friday, November 14, 2003, at 11:07  PM, James Rohde wrote:

On 11/14/03 5:41 AM, Bruce Johnson enlightened us by writing:

Softwindows was written by Insignia under license from Microsoft.
Insignia got the deep access to Windows source code. In return
Microsoft got significant rights to Insignia's code. FWB owns the
SoftWindows product, but they can't sell it as such because their
license with Microsoft is not valid. It's a complicated IP tangle.
(made more so by the apparent criminal activities of the previous
management)
So Bruce, were you meaning Insignia or Microsoft?... ;-)
actually, neither. I was speaking of FWB.

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Bruce Johnson


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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-14 Thread James Rohde 
On 11/13/03 6:59 AM, Kelly Johnson enlightened us by writing:

I think you guys are missing the boat on MS's intentions.  I think it 
is a simple matter of them knowing that a significant number of mac 
users, given sufficient experience with windows, will become 
comfortable enough with it to ditch apple.  They've lowered the price 
already, which to me shows they want to lure more mac people into using 
windows.  That's all there is to it, I think.
But again, that's one person's thoughts on what Microsoft might/might not 
be intending... Unless anyone here wants to claim to be a corporate 
mind-reader, we don't really know. 
To paraphrase a very old radio show's phrase:
Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of Microsoft?
;-)

The reason I say this is that I am a fairly typical user, and this is 
what happened to me.  I used windows in VPC, got comfortable with it, 
became irritated with apple for a few reasons, sold my mac, bought a 
pc, bought another pc.  For the difference in money, I can live with a 
pc now.  I bought a pb12 because there truly was nothing else pc or 
otherwise that could compete (sony vaio probably the closest), but I 
wouldn't buy anything apple again, if it doesn't provide comparable 
value in its hardware (osX isn't enough nicer than XP to warrant the 
price differences for me).  All because of VPC.  kj.

But again, this is one person's conjecture as to how many other users 
are/aren't likely to feel/think/act as you do. Back to guesses, which is 
all any of us can do on the topic of motivations for buying/not buying 
Apple or other companies' products.

But thanks for your thoughts. As for me, I do get frustrated with Apple 
at times, but don't see any significant draws to switch to Windows of any 
kind (and I've used most versions since Win95).

Jim Rohde




Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives.
 If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If not,
 why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy, author and Macintosh user




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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-14 Thread James Rohde 
On 11/14/03 5:41 AM, Bruce Johnson enlightened us by writing:


Softwindows was written by Insignia under license from Microsoft. 
Insignia got the deep access to Windows source code. In return 
Microsoft got significant rights to Insignia's code. FWB owns the 
SoftWindows product, but they can't sell it as such because their 
license with Microsoft is not valid. It's a complicated IP tangle.

(made more so by the apparent criminal activities of the previous 
management)

So Bruce, were you meaning Insignia or Microsoft?... ;-)

Chuckling at your (intended or not) assessment,

Jim Rohde



One standard to rule them all, one standard to find them,
One standard to bring them all, and in darkness bind them. 
In the land of Microsoft, where Shadows lie.



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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-13 Thread Josh Watson 

 I think you guys are missing the boat on MS's intentions.  I think it
 is a simple matter of them knowing that a significant number of mac

How about this then - if M$ want the new XBox (a glorified
Celeron) to run on a G5 chip and be backward compatible, then
maybe they'll need a good x86 emulator which has been proven to
run on (and quite probably optimised for) IBM RISC chips.

Probably a load of old cobblers tho :)

It's more likely they want to can Mac Office, and still
support Macs than remove Linux support.


Josh

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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-13 Thread Bruce Johnson 
On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 05:06  PM, Kelly Johnson wrote:
The reason I say this is that I am a fairly typical user, and this is 
what happened to me.  I used windows in VPC, got comfortable with it, 
became irritated with apple for a few reasons, sold my mac, bought a 
pc, bought another pc.  For the difference in money, I can live with a 
pc now.  I bought a pb12 because there truly was nothing else pc or 
otherwise that could compete (sony vaio probably the closest), but I 
wouldn't buy anything apple again, if it doesn't provide comparable 
value in its hardware (osX isn't enough nicer than XP to warrant the 
price differences for me).
ROFLMAO.


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Bruce Johnson


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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-13 Thread Bruce Johnson 
On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 04:28  PM, David Sinn wrote:

I wasn't aware that Microsoft had bought FWB or SoftWindows for that 
matter,
or were you saying that they should have?
Softwindows was written by Insignia under license from Microsoft. 
Insignia got the deep access to Windows source code. In return 
Microsoft got significant rights to Insignia's code. FWB owns the 
SoftWindows product, but they can't sell it as such because their 
license with Microsoft is not valid. It's a complicated IP tangle.

(made more so by the apparent criminal activities of the previous 
management)



And, yes, it is pretty obvious that they are two separate programs, 
but they
are closely related in intent (much more the Photoshop and iTunes).
Intent, yes. In design, no way. Softwindows was essentially a port of 
Windows to the host platform. (Insignia also sold it for Unix 
workstations) You could not, for example, use Softwindows to create a 
DOS system, much less install Linux.

In fact, Microsoft borrowed heavily from Insignia's work to create the 
'DOS compatibility box'  in Windows 200 and XP.

VPC is an emulator of the Intel hardware.  Windows installers cannot 
tell the difference between it and a real live intel box.

Real PC is also an emulator of the underlying hardware.

 What I
was trying to comment on was what Microsoft might/should/could do if 
they
wanted to push Linux out, which was the basis for this initial thread.
Nothing more.
And I was making the point that morphing VPC into something like WINE ( 
which explicitly isn't an emulator ;-) would pretty much require 
retaining the name and rewriting everything else completely. Why spend 
the money, then? Particularly when they already *have* such a product: 
The built-in 16 bit emulator in  Windows 2K and XP.

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Bruce Johnson


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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-13 Thread Frank P. Eigler 
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Paul Stamsen wrote:

 At 17:06pm -0700 on 11/12/03,  you (Kelly Johnson), wrote:

  I think you guys are missing the boat on MS's intentions.  I think it
  is a simple matter of them knowing that a significant number of mac

 (snip)
  price differences for me).  All because of VPC.  kj.


  And you wrote to (and stayed subscribed to) this list for what reason?

Knock it off. Check your snip and you'll see that he has a 12 AlBook. And
a point to make.

So, what's *your* reason?


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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-13 Thread Kelly Johnson 
Paul,

I have a 12 powerbook, which I think qualifies.  kj.

On Thursday, November 13, 2003, at 05:59  AM, G-Books wrote:

 And you wrote to (and stayed subscribed to) this list for what reason?

pc now.  I bought a pb12 because there truly was nothing else pc or
otherwise that could compete (sony vaio probably the closest), but I


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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-12 Thread Krevnik 
On Nov 11, 2003, at 3:53 PM, Jim Schulze wrote:

On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 09:29 PM, Krevnik wrote:
It doesn't mean that Linux will suddenly stop working. VPC is 
designed so that you can't just set a magic flag that prevents an OS 
from working.


ROFLMAO.

Uh, do you think that if you had the source code you
might be able to come up with a way to do exactly that?
And how long would that last? What would you check for in the OS you 
are loading to see if it is Linux, BSD, or Windows? Maybe we could 
check to see if it loads like Windows... oh wait, Unix systems 
sometimes do that on x86 hardware for compatibility reasons.

Crippling VPC to not run Linux also runs a large risk of crippling VPC 
to not run Windows, as it emulates the hardware not the software. Linux 
is very much designed to be able to boot in the same manner Windows 
does... and even if it checked for certain files, you could always 
trick it.

The core design of VPC prevents MS/Connectix from disabling other OSes 
without doing some damage to Windows running in the VPC environment.

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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-12 Thread Jim Schulze 
On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 01:05 AM, Krevnik wrote:

On Nov 11, 2003, at 3:53 PM, Jim Schulze wrote:

On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 09:29 PM, Krevnik wrote:
It doesn't mean that Linux will suddenly stop working. VPC is 
designed so that you can't just set a magic flag that prevents an OS 
from working.


ROFLMAO.

Uh, do you think that if you had the source code you
might be able to come up with a way to do exactly that?
And how long would that last? What would you check for in the OS you 
are loading to see if it is Linux, BSD, or Windows? Maybe we could 
check to see if it loads like Windows... oh wait, Unix systems 
sometimes do that on x86 hardware for compatibility reasons.

Crippling VPC to not run Linux also runs a large risk of crippling VPC 
to not run Windows, as it emulates the hardware not the software. 
Linux is very much designed to be able to boot in the same manner 
Windows does... and even if it checked for certain files, you could 
always trick it.

The core design of VPC prevents MS/Connectix from disabling other OSes 
without doing some damage to Windows running in the VPC environment.


This would be so simple that it almost takes longer to describe it
than to implement it.
How about getting the boot code to check for a Microsoft Copyright
notice in some piece of the system and not boot if it is not there?
How about only booting if the file system is Microsoft's FAT or
FAT32 or NTFS.
How long until the Linux system includes a Microsoft Copyright
notice in their code?
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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-12 Thread David Sinn 
That is, of course, only if Microsoft continues to keep VPC as a emulator
and doesn't morph it into something closer to say WINE.  Why do I need to
emulate the whole PC when all that users may need is a Windows API and
something to translate the code???

I have no info that this is what they are going to do, but it remains a
possibility if they wanted to push non-Windows OS's off of the platform.

David 

On 11/11/03 11:05 PM, Krevnik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Nov 11, 2003, at 3:53 PM, Jim Schulze wrote:
 
 
 On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 09:29 PM, Krevnik wrote:
 It doesn't mean that Linux will suddenly stop working. VPC is
 designed so that you can't just set a magic flag that prevents an OS
 from working.
 
 
 
 ROFLMAO.
 
 Uh, do you think that if you had the source code you
 might be able to come up with a way to do exactly that?
 
 And how long would that last? What would you check for in the OS you
 are loading to see if it is Linux, BSD, or Windows? Maybe we could
 check to see if it loads like Windows... oh wait, Unix systems
 sometimes do that on x86 hardware for compatibility reasons.
 
 Crippling VPC to not run Linux also runs a large risk of crippling VPC
 to not run Windows, as it emulates the hardware not the software. Linux
 is very much designed to be able to boot in the same manner Windows
 does... and even if it checked for certain files, you could always
 trick it.
 
 The core design of VPC prevents MS/Connectix from disabling other OSes
 without doing some damage to Windows running in the VPC environment.
 


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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-12 Thread Bruce Johnson 
David Sinn wrote:

That is, of course, only if Microsoft continues to keep VPC as a emulator
and doesn't morph it into something closer to say WINE.  Why do I need to
emulate the whole PC when all that users may need is a Windows API and
something to translate the code???
I have no info that this is what they are going to do, but it remains a
possibility if they wanted to push non-Windows OS's off of the platform.
Had they wanted to do that, they would have simply upgraded their 
*existing* product SoftWindows (which Insignia developed) instead of 
buying Virtual PC. (Or simply ripped off WINE)

The two programs you're discussing are completely different: it would be 
on the order of buying Photoshop from Adobe, so they could come up with 
a competitior for iTunes Windows...

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University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-12 Thread Bruce Johnson 
David Ensteness wrote:

The core design of VPC prevents MS/Connectix from disabling other OSes
without doing some damage to Windows running in the VPC environment.
Not true, there are some OSes that do not work under VPC, this has been 
the case for several years.
Only if the emulated hardware is preventing it or it's doing something 
funky direct to hardware.

To most software, including OS installers, VPC looks like a 'real' PC.

--
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University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-12 Thread David Sinn 
I wasn't aware that Microsoft had bought FWB or SoftWindows for that matter,
or were you saying that they should have?

So, while they don't have an existing product to upgrade to do what I was
conjecturing to be Microsoft's intent, what ever any of us comes up with is
just that:  conjecture.  Only Microsoft really knows why they did this (and
quite honestly that might even be a stretch).  From the thought of legacy
OS's on Intel's new chips, to trying to stymie Linux under emulation on a
Mac, to whatever...

And, yes, it is pretty obvious that they are two separate programs, but they
are closely related in intent (much more the Photoshop and iTunes).  What I
was trying to comment on was what Microsoft might/should/could do if they
wanted to push Linux out, which was the basis for this initial thread.
Nothing more. 

David

David Sinn wrote:

 That is, of course, only if Microsoft continues to keep VPC as a emulator
 and doesn't morph it into something closer to say WINE.  Why do I need to
 emulate the whole PC when all that users may need is a Windows API and
 something to translate the code???
 
 I have no info that this is what they are going to do, but it remains a
 possibility if they wanted to push non-Windows OS's off of the platform.

Had they wanted to do that, they would have simply upgraded their
*existing* product SoftWindows (which Insignia developed) instead of
buying Virtual PC. (Or simply ripped off WINE)

The two programs you're discussing are completely different: it would be
on the order of buying Photoshop from Adobe, so they could come up with
a competitior for iTunes Windows...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-12 Thread Kelly Johnson 
I think you guys are missing the boat on MS's intentions.  I think it 
is a simple matter of them knowing that a significant number of mac 
users, given sufficient experience with windows, will become 
comfortable enough with it to ditch apple.  They've lowered the price 
already, which to me shows they want to lure more mac people into using 
windows.  That's all there is to it, I think.

The reason I say this is that I am a fairly typical user, and this is 
what happened to me.  I used windows in VPC, got comfortable with it, 
became irritated with apple for a few reasons, sold my mac, bought a 
pc, bought another pc.  For the difference in money, I can live with a 
pc now.  I bought a pb12 because there truly was nothing else pc or 
otherwise that could compete (sony vaio probably the closest), but I 
wouldn't buy anything apple again, if it doesn't provide comparable 
value in its hardware (osX isn't enough nicer than XP to warrant the 
price differences for me).  All because of VPC.  kj.

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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-12 Thread Paul Stamsen 
At 17:06pm -0700 on 11/12/03,  you (Kelly Johnson), wrote:

 I think you guys are missing the boat on MS's intentions.  I think it
 is a simple matter of them knowing that a significant number of mac

(snip)
 price differences for me).  All because of VPC.  kj.


 And you wrote to (and stayed subscribed to) this list for what reason?
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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-11 Thread Bruce Johnson 
On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 07:46  PM, Shawn Harley wrote:

Steve,

Looks like they are only talking about VPC for Windows and Linux. VPC 
for Mac is mentioned in the Nov. 2 release near the end, but no 
mention of Linux support there either. We'll just have to wait and  see.
VPC emulates specific PC hardware. Any OS that will run on that 
hardware will work with VPC. Microsoft's support, however, is something 
different.

We're talking support as in 'Go to the website when something doesn't 
work' support, not 'runs on this hardware support'.

MS dropped the non-windows pre-installed OS'es, and the rumor mill took 
that to mean they were disabling other OS'es.

All MS is saying is 'if you don't run windows on it, the help you get 
form us will be limited.' It would be akin to calling Apple support for 
help on your G4 with Yellow Dog Linux installed. Unless it's an 
identifiable hardware issue, they're not going to help.

Connectix used to sell VPC with Linux pre-installed, and would answer 
Linux questions if you called about it, in relation to VPC.


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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-11 Thread Jim Schulze 
On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 09:29 PM, Krevnik wrote:
It doesn't mean that Linux will suddenly stop working. VPC is designed 
so that you can't just set a magic flag that prevents an OS from 
working.


ROFLMAO.

Uh, do you think that if you had the source code you
might be able to come up with a way to do exactly that?
JimS.



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Virtual PC Update

2003-11-10 Thread Steve Fuller 
For everyone that was harping on Microsoft for removing support for 
Linux or other non-MS operating systems from Virtual PC over the last 
week or so, you can put down your pitchforks and black helicopter 
theories.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1378286,00.asp

Steve

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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-10 Thread Shawn Harley 
Steve,

Looks like they are only talking about VPC for Windows and Linux. VPC 
for Mac is mentioned in the Nov. 2 release near the end, but no mention 
of Linux support there either. We'll just have to wait and see.

Shawn

On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 11:52  AM, Steve Fuller wrote:

For everyone that was harping on Microsoft for removing support for 
Linux or other non-MS operating systems from Virtual PC over the last 
week or so, you can put down your pitchforks and black helicopter 
theories.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1378286,00.asp

Steve

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Re: Virtual PC Update

2003-11-10 Thread Krevnik 
Unless they are dropping support for the Mac, then what they say about 
VPC in general applies to the Mac version. They don't want to support 
people using Linux, and that isn't surprising in the least. It doesn't 
mean that Linux will suddenly stop working. VPC is designed so that you 
can't just set a magic flag that prevents an OS from working.

On Nov 10, 2003, at 6:46 PM, Shawn Harley wrote:

Steve,

Looks like they are only talking about VPC for Windows and Linux. VPC 
for Mac is mentioned in the Nov. 2 release near the end, but no 
mention of Linux support there either. We'll just have to wait and 
see.

Shawn

On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 11:52  AM, Steve Fuller wrote:

For everyone that was harping on Microsoft for removing support for 
Linux or other non-MS operating systems from Virtual PC over the last 
week or so, you can put down your pitchforks and black helicopter 
theories.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1378286,00.asp

Steve

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