Re: Option key boot?

[Clark Martin]

On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:09 PM, Jeffrey Engle wrote:

> 
> Q: for some reason when I option key boot, the 100mhz bus hard drive doesn't 
> appear? (yes, it has 10.4.11 on it) but it will appear in the system 
> preferences/ startup disk as well as disk utility? why not the option boot 
> screen? could I have a bad 100mhz bus? 

Have you tried the left-lower ICON, the one that re-probes for boot disks.  
It's possible the drive isn't ready in time during boot.


Clark Martin
Redwood City, CA, USA
Macintosh / Internet Consulting

"I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway"

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Re: OT OT OT need a reason ?

[Tina K.]

On 2011/03/23 11:30, Dan so eloquently wrote:

I'll betcha a few million quatloos


Brother can you spare a quatloo? ;-)

Tina

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PB G4 15" HR-DLSD 1.67GHz G4 2GB RAM Radeon 9700 128MB VRAM 10.4.11

Mac Pro Mid-2010 2.8 GHz QC 6 GB RAM Radeon HD 5770 1GB VRAM 10.6.6

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Re: OT OT OT need a reason ?

[Daniel Stewart]

Once again this is going off topic but this seems to be the thread for
it.  One thing that was impressive with the G4 in it's day compared to
the P4s of the same time was that you could get similar or better
performance from a CPU that used only passive cooling (heatsink).  P4s
at the time ran crazy hot and we used to joke that Intel would have to
start shipping their CPUs with fire extinguishers.  Heck with a
Prescott P4 80-90 degrees Celsius was considered normal operating
temps. Yikes!  The core duo based on the Pentium M really saved
Intel's bacon.

On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 6:37 PM, JoeTaxpayer  wrote:
>> I have the latest DVD
>> rip I'm sending to a TiVo, will run on both machines to confirm exact
>> ratio I see.
>
> So, the DVD I transcoded from rips, the MDD Dual 1.25 G4 = 115 min,
> the Quad 2.8 Intel = 19 min. 1/6 the time. It was an 1:35 long DVD,
> encoded to .mpg for TiVo. Some other format changes seem to have a
> larger ratio, 8-10 to 1 in some cases.
>
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Re: OT OT OT need a reason ?

[JoeTaxpayer]

> I have the latest DVD
> rip I'm sending to a TiVo, will run on both machines to confirm exact
> ratio I see.

So, the DVD I transcoded from rips, the MDD Dual 1.25 G4 = 115 min,
the Quad 2.8 Intel = 19 min. 1/6 the time. It was an 1:35 long DVD,
encoded to .mpg for TiVo. Some other format changes seem to have a
larger ratio, 8-10 to 1 in some cases.

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Re: Disappearing Ram in Powerbook G4 15inch

[Dan]

At 2:33 PM -0700 3/23/2011, Clmtyne wrote:
Powerbook G4 15", and for some reason after switching to the other 
user, I noticed that the applications folder had no folders in it.


HD / file system corruption perhaps.  Run a verify disk pass with 
Disk Utility; repair if needed.  But do this AFTER fixing the memory 
problem (below).


open "About this Mac and saw that there is only 1gig of Ram showing. 
So what happened to the other 1 gig stick of Ram? What causes that 
and is it common? How do I fix this?


Reboot and see if the gig is still AWOL.  If it is, then shutdown and 
reseat the memory.  Hopefully it's just been jarred lose a bit...


- Dan.
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- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: Option key boot?

[Dan]

At 2:20 PM -0700 3/23/2011, Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
Hmm... not sure why it wouldnt show up. Which format do you have the 
hard drive set to? I am not sure if there is really much of a 
difference between Mac OS Extended and Mac OS Extended (Journaled) 
but I always set mine to Journaled and have never had a problem.


Journaling is an enhancement upon HFS+.

As far as the partition format is concerned, journaling is just a 
flag.  It has nothing to do with boot operations.


- Dan.
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Re: Disappearing Ram in Powerbook G4 15inch

[Bruce Johnson]

On Mar 23, 2011, at 2:33 PM, Clmtyne wrote:

> Not sure what's happening, but I had two profiles set up on my
> Powerbook G4 15", and for some reason after switching to the other
> user, I noticed that the applications folder had no folders in it. I
> thought that maybe my daughter did something funny, but then I open
> "About this Mac and saw that there is only 1gig of Ram showing. So
> what happened to the other 1 gig stick of Ram? What causes that and is
> it common? How do I fix this?


Well the first thing I'd check is to see if the ram itself had come unseated; 
sometimes when it's not quite seated correctly in the first place, it will come 
loose after variable amounts of time or the usual abuse that happens to laptops 
takes it's toll. Sometimes you really have to push them into the slot before 
bringing them down and latching. (this happened to me just the other day 
installing RAM in a MacBook pro; one SODIMM didn't quite go in and all sorts of 
weird system hikjinks then occurred.

Second possibility is that that SODIMM has gone bad. take one out and see if it 
boots up to 1 gig ram. if so, shut down, swap the SODIMM modules and try the 
other, in the same slot. If THAT one works try swapping it to the other slot; 
if it's the slot, that's bad news, because that's a 'replace your logic board' 
fix.

If it all checks out ok, replace it all, log in as the original profile, and 
see what System Profiler says, if THAT'S ok, switch users and see what it says. 
If it's wrong only on the one profile you have something very weird wrong with 
that profile...this is the least likely possibility in my opinion; a SODIMM 
come loose is the most.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: How to install OS9 drivers after the fact?

[Jeffrey Engle]

On Mar 23, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Kris Tilford wrote:

> I don't think this is the cause of your Option key boot problem,

Your right Kris, two completely separate questions not relating to each other. 
Jeff

Jeffrey Engle
macgu...@gmail.com
Kamiah, Idaho 83536

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Re: How to install OS9 drivers after the fact?

[Kris Tilford]

On Mar 23, 2011, at 4:19 PM, Jeffrey Engle wrote:

what if I forgot to install os9 drivers when I erased the hard drive  
the last time? Is there a way to install the os9 drivers without re- 
erasing the drive?


I don't think this is the cause of your Option key boot problem, but  
you can reinstall OS 9 drivers by booting an OS 9 Install CD and  
navigating to Drive Setup and highlight the HD and select "Update hard  
disk drivers". I don't think this will help.


My advice for the Option key boot problem is to reset the NVRAM by  
booting into Open Firmware using Cmd-Opt-o-f at startup and then using  
the commands at the Open Firmware prompt:


set-defaults
reset-all

where  means to hit the Return key. The responses should be  
"ok" to the 1st command, and a restart to the 2nd command.


After this, try the Option key boot again. If it doesn't show, you  
might want to check the jumper settings on the HD, or the ATA cable.  
If you've reset the NVRAM and it's still not working, it's a hardware  
issue rather than a software issue.


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Disappearing Ram in Powerbook G4 15inch

[Clmtyne]

Not sure what's happening, but I had two profiles set up on my
Powerbook G4 15", and for some reason after switching to the other
user, I noticed that the applications folder had no folders in it. I
thought that maybe my daughter did something funny, but then I open
"About this Mac and saw that there is only 1gig of Ram showing. So
what happened to the other 1 gig stick of Ram? What causes that and is
it common? How do I fix this?

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Re: Option key boot?

[Jeffrey Engle]

On Mar 23, 2011, at 2:20 PM, Jeremiah Stevens wrote:

> Hmm... not sure why it wouldnt show up. Which format do you have the hard 
> drive set to? I am not sure if there is really much of a difference between 
> Mac OS Extended and Mac OS Extended (Journaled) but I always set mine to 
> Journaled and have never had a problem.
>  

> Mac OS Extended (Journaled) is what it's formatted to. Jeff

Jeffrey Engle
macgu...@gmail.com
Kamiah, Idaho 83536

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Re: Option key boot?

[Jeremiah Stevens]

Hmm... not sure why it wouldnt show up. Which format do you have the hard drive 
set to? I am not sure if there is really much of a difference between Mac OS 
Extended and Mac OS Extended (Journaled) but I always set mine to Journaled and 
have never had a problem.
 
-Jeremiah




From: Jeffrey Engle 
To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Option key boot?


On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:13 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> 
> On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:09 PM, Jeffrey Engle wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Q: for some reason when I option key boot, the 100mhz bus hard drive doesn't 
>> appear? (yes, it has 10.4.11 on it) but it will appear in the system 
>> preferences/ startup disk as well as disk utility? why not the option boot 
>> screen? could I have a bad 100mhz bus? 
> 
> does it boot? If so you have a good bus.
> 

Yes, it boots If selected in startup disk. 



Jeffrey Engle
macgu...@gmail.com
Kamiah, Idaho 83536

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How to install OS9 drivers after the fact?

[Jeffrey Engle]

what if I forgot to install os9 drivers when I erased the hard drive the last 
time? Is there a way to install the os9 drivers without re-erasing the drive? 
Jeff


Jeffrey Engle
macgu...@gmail.com
Kamiah, Idaho 83536

Machine Info
Mac OS X Tiger 10.4.11 (build 8S165)
Model Name: PowerMacG4
Model Identifier:   PowerMac3,6
Processor Name: PowerPC G4  (3.2)
Total Number Of Cores:  2
Processor Speed:1.25 GHz
L2 Cache (per CPU): 256 KB
L3 Cache (per CPU): 2 MB
Memory: 2 GB
Bus Speed:  167 MHz
Boot ROM Version:   4.4.8f2
Serial Number (system): XB24015NLKB
Sales Order Number: M8573LL/A


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Re: Option key boot?

[Jeffrey Engle]

On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:13 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> 
> On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:09 PM, Jeffrey Engle wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Q: for some reason when I option key boot, the 100mhz bus hard drive doesn't 
>> appear? (yes, it has 10.4.11 on it) but it will appear in the system 
>> preferences/ startup disk as well as disk utility? why not the option boot 
>> screen? could I have a bad 100mhz bus? 
> 
> does it boot? If so you have a good bus.
> 

Yes, it boots If selected in startup disk. 



Jeffrey Engle
macgu...@gmail.com
Kamiah, Idaho 83536

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Re: Option key boot?

[Bruce Johnson]

On Mar 23, 2011, at 1:09 PM, Jeffrey Engle wrote:

> 
> Q: for some reason when I option key boot, the 100mhz bus hard drive doesn't 
> appear? (yes, it has 10.4.11 on it) but it will appear in the system 
> preferences/ startup disk as well as disk utility? why not the option boot 
> screen? could I have a bad 100mhz bus? 

If selected in startup disk does it boot? If so you have a good bus.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Option key boot?

[Jeffrey Engle]

I have a MDD dual 1.25 with Tiger 10.4.11 

2 hard drives, one in the front bay (100mhz bus) and the other in the rear bay 
(66mhz bus)

Q: for some reason when I option key boot, the 100mhz bus hard drive doesn't 
appear? (yes, it has 10.4.11 on it) but it will appear in the system 
preferences/ startup disk as well as disk utility? why not the option boot 
screen? could I have a bad 100mhz bus? 


Jeffrey Engle
macgu...@gmail.com
Kamiah, Idaho 83536

 Model Name:PowerMacG4
  Model Identifier: PowerMac3,6
  Processor Name:   PowerPC G4  (3.2)
  Total Number Of Cores:2
  Processor Speed:  1.25 GHz
  L2 Cache (per CPU):   256 KB
  L3 Cache (per CPU):   2 MB
  Memory:   2 GB
  Bus Speed:167 MHz
  Boot ROM Version: 4.4.8f2
  Serial Number (system):   XB24015NLKB
  Sales Order Number:   M8573LL/A


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Re: iTunes 10+ on OS 10.4.11 ???

[Dan]

At 11:46 AM -0700 3/23/2011, Cliff Rediger wrote:
My wife just received a new IPod which tells her she needs iTunes 
10.2+ to connect

to her iBook G4 running 10.4.11. Hmmm?

Seems iT 10.2 is compatible with OS 10.5 or later only.

Seeking confirmation and/or hacks.


No hacks.  iTunes 10 requires G4/G5/x86, Leopard or SL.  At 1 GHz 
it's slow but works.




- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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iTunes 10+ on OS 10.4.11 ???

[Cliff Rediger]

My wife just received a new IPod
which tells her she needs iTunes 10.2+ to connect
to her iBook G4 running 10.4.11.

Hmmm?

Seems iT 10.2 is compatible with OS 10.5 or later only.

Seeking confirmation and/or hacks.

thanks
Cliff

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Re: OT OT OT need a reason ?

[Bruce Johnson]

On Mar 23, 2011, at 10:30 AM, Dan wrote:

> *shrug*
> 
> This is all moot now tho as you just ain't gonna be running OS X on a POWER 
> based system!  

Also, it is moot now that Apple has the infrastructure in place to use the GPU 
as a vector processor which is probably faster than Altivec and SSE combined.  


(also any article that talks about SSE in a P4 is from the dark ages. Intel has 
produced THREE generations of CPU's since then.)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: OT OT OT need a reason ?

[Dan]

At 9:44 AM -0700 3/23/2011, imrazor wrote:

On Mar 23, 9:34 am, Dan  wrote:

 At 7:15 AM -0700 3/23/2011, imrazor wrote:
 This is good too:

 > 

Thanks Dan, that's a very good summary for a non-coder like myself.
Apple claims that Altivec is twice as fast as SSE1/2/3 at 8 flops/
cycle vs SSE's 4flops/cycle, so theoretically shouldn't a G5 be twice
as fast as an Intel processor at SIMD operations at equivalent clock
speeds? Now the article mentions P4's, so I'm not sure if subsequent
improvements in Intel's lineup would change that number. Or maybe
Intel has added more registers? Plus I think SSE 4.1 is out now...


Google "altivec vs sse".  There are some interesting articles, albeit 
some quite old.  Most complain about how nasty SSE is to use.  As for 
performance, it really it depends on the actual operation being 
performed as to which is faster.  The implementation of Altivec in 
the G4 and G5 processors was quite good, and usually outperformed 
Intelcarp.  But there are a few benchmarks showing that SSE is 
faster.  Again, like any benchmark, it depends on the individual task 
and coding and compiler and OS' runtimes.


*shrug*

This is all moot now tho as you just ain't gonna be running OS X on a 
POWER based system!  Get over it.  Suck it up.  Learn to enjoy the 
Intel parts and their lower reliability.  Or just hold your toes for 
a few more months, or perhaps a year...  As ARM ramps up their design 
into the server market, I'll betcha a few million quatloos that we 
start seeing ARM-based Macs.


- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: OT OT OT need a reason ?

[imrazor]

On Mar 23, 9:34 am, Dan  wrote:
> At 7:15 AM -0700 3/23/2011, imrazor wrote:
> This is good too:
> 
>
> - Dan.

Thanks Dan, that's a very good summary for a non-coder like myself.
Apple claims that Altivec is twice as fast as SSE1/2/3 at 8 flops/
cycle vs SSE's 4flops/cycle, so theoretically shouldn't a G5 be twice
as fast as an Intel processor at SIMD operations at equivalent clock
speeds? Now the article mentions P4's, so I'm not sure if subsequent
improvements in Intel's lineup would change that number. Or maybe
Intel has added more registers? Plus I think SSE 4.1 is out now...

Eric

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Re: OT OT OT need a reason ?

[Dan]

At 7:15 AM -0700 3/23/2011, imrazor wrote:

 > Ok, I'll ask - I am well aware of how AltiVec functioned. And no

 argument that an Intel-written SW may not properly run on a PPC to
 take advantage. Honest question though - Doesn't Intel have a similar
 functioning SIMD unit? Also 128bit wide? If that's the case, I'd
 expect that a 4x2.8GHz machine to be 4.48X as fast as a 2x1.25GHz
 machine, given the similarity between both SIMD units. The near 10X
 improvement I see proves your point, to me, at least, that the code
 was not optimized for PPC, specifically AltiVec. I have the latest DVD
 rip I'm sending to a TiVo, will run on both machines to confirm exact
 ratio I see.


You're right - Intel does have a competing technology called SSE. You
can read more about it here, though don't ask me to translate into
English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streaming_SIMD_Extensions

I've never seen a performance comparison between Altivec and SSE,
though it would make an interesting read.


This is good too:


- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: OT OT OT need a reason ?

[imrazor]

> Ok, I'll ask - I am well aware of how AltiVec functioned. And no
> argument that an Intel-written SW may not properly run on a PPC to
> take advantage. Honest question though - Doesn't Intel have a similar
> functioning SIMD unit? Also 128bit wide? If that's the case, I'd
> expect that a 4x2.8GHz machine to be 4.48X as fast as a 2x1.25GHz
> machine, given the similarity between both SIMD units. The near 10X
> improvement I see proves your point, to me, at least, that the code
> was not optimized for PPC, specifically AltiVec. I have the latest DVD
> rip I'm sending to a TiVo, will run on both machines to confirm exact
> ratio I see.

You're right - Intel does have a competing technology called SSE. You
can read more about it here, though don't ask me to translate into
English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streaming_SIMD_Extensions

I've never seen a performance comparison between Altivec and SSE,
though it would make an interesting read.

Eric

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Re: OT OT OT need a reason ?

[JoeTaxpayer]

On Mar 23, 12:29 am, "ah...clem"  wrote:
> On Mar 22, 11:57 am, Bruce Johnson 
> wrote:
>
> > Oh puleeeze. You're claiming a dual 1.25 Ghz G4 on a 333 mHz bus can 
> > compare to a Mac Pro (which at a MINIMUM has 2 2.66Ghz dual core Xeons with 
> > 667 Mhz memory bus) with a few COMPILER TWEAKS??? (which tweaks, BTW, 
> > Apple's dev tools pretty much apply automatically when you select PPC as a 
> > compile target)
>
> i never claimed any such thing!  re-read the post, bruce.  if you want
> to "win" the discussion so desperately that you will resort to putting
> words in my mouth, then you only underscore the weakness of your own
> position.  what i said was that PPC versus intel of comparable clock
> speeds was no contest.  given software well written for each, the PPC
> was damned near twice as fast as the intel on real world
> computationally intensive tasks.

Ok, I'll ask - I am well aware of how AltiVec functioned. And no
argument that an Intel-written SW may not properly run on a PPC to
take advantage. Honest question though - Doesn't Intel have a similar
functioning SIMD unit? Also 128bit wide? If that's the case, I'd
expect that a 4x2.8GHz machine to be 4.48X as fast as a 2x1.25GHz
machine, given the similarity between both SIMD units. The near 10X
improvement I see proves your point, to me, at least, that the code
was not optimized for PPC, specifically AltiVec. I have the latest DVD
rip I'm sending to a TiVo, will run on both machines to confirm exact
ratio I see.

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