Re: Problems maxing ram on Quicksilver
Mike, I would verify that you are using all the same speed memory and same latency. Mixing different chips could cause problems. You might also want to clean the slots and test each stick individually using AHD (Apple Hardware Diagnosis) if you don't have the CD that came with the computer you can download the image from Apple Support site (sorry don't have the link for this). Once you test individually try 2 at a time and switch the 2 that you are testing. Albert From: mfarrell607 mfarrell...@gmail.com To: G-Group g3-5-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 10:39 AM Subject: Problems maxing ram on Quicksilver Hi all, I was wondering if anyone had any similar problems or solutions when maxing out the ram on an old Quicksilver. It's model M8493 running a 933mhz processor. I have tried to max out the ram to 1.5GB but when I put the final 512MB chipset in it causes programs to freeze or just quit midstream (like Firefox, Safari), or the machine to freeze up altogether. If I put a smaller size chip in it runs fine (I have an old 128MB one that used to run in it). The machine recognizes the 1.5GB. I have tried rotating the chipsets in the memory slots, made sure they are seated properly, and even returned the most recent one purchased and gotten a replacement and the machine still has the same problems. I don't know if there is something I am missing or what. If anyone has any ideas as to what the problem is or how to solve it please let me know. Thanks, Mike -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Problems maxing ram on Quicksilver
Theres nothing to say that both new stick are fault. You can run mem test to be sure Sent from my iPhone On 10 May 2011, at 15:39, mfarrell607 mfarrell...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I was wondering if anyone had any similar problems or solutions when maxing out the ram on an old Quicksilver. It's model M8493 running a 933mhz processor. I have tried to max out the ram to 1.5GB but when I put the final 512MB chipset in it causes programs to freeze or just quit midstream (like Firefox, Safari), or the machine to freeze up altogether. If I put a smaller size chip in it runs fine (I have an old 128MB one that used to run in it). The machine recognizes the 1.5GB. I have tried rotating the chipsets in the memory slots, made sure they are seated properly, and even returned the most recent one purchased and gotten a replacement and the machine still has the same problems. I don't know if there is something I am missing or what. If anyone has any ideas as to what the problem is or how to solve it please let me know. Thanks, Mike -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Problems maxing ram on Quicksilver
Thanks Albert. The memory chips are all the same speed and from the same source. When I returned the original stick I thought was causing the problems the source said sometimes the Mac doesn't like certain chips and sent a set made by a different manufacturer (Samsung this time, I think). He tested the original and said it passed. The guy I got the chips from has been extremely reliable and I have bought memory through his company for years. I will try the hardware diagnosis you recommended and try to find the link (I got this computer second-hand through work). I am currently running only two 512MB modules in the machine now and it has been stable except for maybe one instance. Thanks, Mike On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Albert Carter slvrmoonti...@yahoo.comwrote: Mike, I would verify that you are using all the same speed memory and same latency. Mixing different chips could cause problems. You might also want to clean the slots and test each stick individually using AHD (Apple Hardware Diagnosis) if you don't have the CD that came with the computer you can download the image from Apple Support site (sorry don't have the link for this). Once you test individually try 2 at a time and switch the 2 that you are testing. Albert -- *From:* mfarrell607 mfarrell...@gmail.com *To:* G-Group g3-5-list@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Tuesday, May 10, 2011 10:39 AM *Subject:* Problems maxing ram on Quicksilver Hi all, I was wondering if anyone had any similar problems or solutions when maxing out the ram on an old Quicksilver. It's model M8493 running a 933mhz processor. I have tried to max out the ram to 1.5GB but when I put the final 512MB chipset in it causes programs to freeze or just quit midstream (like Firefox, Safari), or the machine to freeze up altogether. If I put a smaller size chip in it runs fine (I have an old 128MB one that used to run in it). The machine recognizes the 1.5GB. I have tried rotating the chipsets in the memory slots, made sure they are seated properly, and even returned the most recent one purchased and gotten a replacement and the machine still has the same problems. I don't know if there is something I am missing or what. If anyone has any ideas as to what the problem is or how to solve it please let me know. Thanks, Mike -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: I am forced to go Intel? Common rant, I guess.
On May 10, 2011, at 9:27 AM, Jack Countryman wrote: IPC 10.5.6?? What's IPC mean here, or where do I find that version of 10.5.6? Yeah, I know...you know what you mean, but I'm not that much up to speed on this stuff anymore, and must have missed the post somewhere that talks about what IPC is in this context?(Last one I built that really worked was with the Kalyway distro...several years ago...if that gives you an idea of how far out of sync I am.) I'd really like to get a 10.6 machine going one of these times...just to show it can be done... Thanks. We are veering off into dealing with illegal torrents of altered OS X'es, which really isn't necessary. Go to these sources: http://www.tonymacx86.com/ http://groups.google.com/group/hq-a?hl=en For a wealth of information on building a Hack that DOES NOT REQUIRE altering the OS X installer; you install from the standard OS X disk. And at this point we're S far off topic, I expect the Nanny will close the thread. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Problems maxing ram on Quicksilver
On May 10, 2011, at 12:01 PM, Michael Farrell wrote: I will try the hardware diagnosis you recommended and try to find the link (I got this computer second-hand through work). I am currently running only two 512MB modules in the machine now and it has been stable except for maybe one instance. Thanks, Mike you've been focused on memory ... could it be something else, like a faulty USB device attached? There's also applejack and its use of memtest for testing memory. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
OT Airport, I'm stumped.
Yesterday, I went to my mothers house with my trusty iPad in hand ready to wow her with this new technology. When I got there, I needed to connect to a network and as her newer 2009 mac mini has 802.11 a,b,g,n capabilities, I quickly navigated to system preferences and turned on internet sharing . I then found that same network on the ipad and for all intent purposes, hooked to her now sweet network, (or at least this is what I thought) the ipad found the network?, gave me the appropriate bars in the upper left hand corner of my ipad screen BUT, no connection? no connection at all? No matter what I did, I couldn't get online with the ipad. Now, at home I use an Airport extreme a,b,g,n base station to get online with this same ipad all the time. SO... I recreated the same scenario with my iMac at home as I did with her Mac Mini and you guessed it, same thing, I couldn't get online. The ipad saw the network, had the bars in the upper left corner, but no connection? What am I doing wrong here? How do I connect at moms Mac Mini, or frankly ANY mac without an Airport Extreme base station? hmm... I'm stumped. TIA Jeffrey Engle Kamiah, Idaho 83536 macgu...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: I am forced to go Intel? Common rant, I guess.
Well, if you know Kalyway, then you know that any hack disc image is going to have a name. IPC 10.5.6 Final was just one that worked for this poster. Google it, you'll see downloads available. On May 10, 12:27 pm, Jack Countryman jcoun...@mac.com wrote: IPC 10.5.6?? What's IPC mean here, or where do I find that version of 10.5.6? -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: OT Airport, I'm stumped.
On May 10, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Jeffrey Engle wrote: Yesterday, I went to my mothers house with my trusty iPad in hand ready to wow her with this new technology. When I got there, I needed to connect to a network and as her newer 2009 mac mini has 802.11 a,b,g,n capabilities, I quickly navigated to system preferences and turned on internet sharing . I then found that same network on the ipad and for all intent purposes, hooked to her now sweet network, (or at least this is what I thought) the ipad found the network?, gave me the appropriate bars in the upper left hand corner of my ipad screen BUT, no connection? no connection at all? No matter what I did, I couldn't get online with the ipad. Now, at home I use an Airport extreme a,b,g,n base station to get online with this same ipad all the time. SO... I recreated the same scenario with my iMac at home as I did with her Mac Mini and you guessed it, same thing, I couldn't get online. The ipad saw the network, had the bars in the upper left corner, but no connection? Is your mothers mini and your iMac using their wired connection for internet connectivity? Internet sharing works by utilizing an unused network interface to offer for connections. OS X will happily let you share your internet connection port, and without some other way of connecting to the internet nothing happens. If your iPad is getting an IP address (and doesn't say 'self-assigned') then this is the problem. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: I am forced to go Intel? Common rant, I guess.
IPC is the distro of 10.5.6 that I used. I recommend it, out of all the ones I've tried, it's the best. It has all the drivers and patches needed for the two systems I mentioned before. -Jonas -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: OT Airport, I'm stumped.
On May 10, 2011, at 10:39 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote: On May 10, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Jeffrey Engle wrote: Yesterday, I went to my mothers house with my trusty iPad in hand ready to wow her with this new technology. When I got there, I needed to connect to a network and as her newer 2009 mac mini has 802.11 a,b,g,n capabilities, I quickly navigated to system preferences and turned on internet sharing . I then found that same network on the ipad and for all intent purposes, hooked to her now sweet network, (or at least this is what I thought) the ipad found the network?, gave me the appropriate bars in the upper left hand corner of my ipad screen BUT, no connection? no connection at all? No matter what I did, I couldn't get online with the ipad. Now, at home I use an Airport extreme a,b,g,n base station to get online with this same ipad all the time. SO... I recreated the same scenario with my iMac at home as I did with her Mac Mini and you guessed it, same thing, I couldn't get online. The ipad saw the network, had the bars in the upper left corner, but no connection? Is your mothers mini and your iMac using their wired connection for internet connectivity? Yes, both computers are connected to the internet via ethernet (DSL modem) connection... -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: G5 Logicboard
I've suffered the dreaded G5 capacitor collapse. Since I don't think I'll manage replacing them I'm thinking of replacing the entire logic board. Any ideas where one can find one? Anders I've successfully repaired dozens. If you're in the uk I can help (you could remove the logic board, post it to me, I repair it and post it back - 60GBP). If not then postage and insurance alone will make it impractical. It's not as hard as you might imagine though. Andy -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: I am forced to go Intel? Common rant, I guess.
On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 10:45 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio fluxstrin...@gmail.com wrote: A hand me down PC laptop and a copy of Leopard might even be cheaper. In my experience, Leopard is only inexpensive if you happen to already own a retail copy of it which you can re-purpose. Otherwise Snow Leopard is IMO a better way to go with Intel. OTOH, if you know of a retail copy of Leopard I can pick up for ~$30 (or less ;-), please let me know. In the eBay auctions I've lookoed at, Leopard goes for $90 or more IIRC. FWIW, -irrational John -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: OT Airport, I'm stumped.
On May 10, 2011, at 11:11 AM, Jeffrey Engle wrote: Is your mothers mini and your iMac using their wired connection for internet connectivity? Yes, both computers are connected to the internet via ethernet (DSL modem) connection... I just set up sharing on my iMac here, and connected with my iPod touch; connected to Google news just to find out that Microsoft wants to buy Skype, which suxgiantrox, you can kiss Skype for the Mac and iPhone goodbye. So you're doing it right, dunno what's going wrong. I'd start from scratch, set it up with no encryption to start, see if it works. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: I am forced to go Intel? Common rant, I guess.
At 22:36 -0400 5/9/11, admin wrote: Adobe Flash 10.2 Intel only, I believe. Web sites are starting not to work under Leopard and Firefox Camino 2.0.7, Firefox 3.6.17, Safari 5.0.5. I can do everything I need to and still use Classic Programs with my G4 computers. I'd rather invest in redundancy with machines and external drives, but it seems the handwriting is on the wall ... I don't even have an LCD monitor. Any suggestions on a Mini that will navigate the latest browsers and web sites? Thanks. Give some serious consideration to using ubuntu Linux on a used or otherwise cheap Intel machine. I used UNIX long before 1984 and I'm likely biased but I find I can communicate quite easily between my G4 running OS 10.3.9 and my HP box running ubuntu where Firefox runs fine with the latest web nonsense. -- -- A fair tax is one that you pay but I don't -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: I am forced to go Intel? Common rant, I guess.
You can also go with Linux Mint 10. I prefer it to Ubuntu. You can build a cheap quad core system for under $500. Just get your parts form CompUSA. On May 10, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Doug McNutt wrote: At 22:36 -0400 5/9/11, admin wrote: Adobe Flash 10.2 Intel only, I believe. Web sites are starting not to work under Leopard and Firefox Camino 2.0.7, Firefox 3.6.17, Safari 5.0.5. I can do everything I need to and still use Classic Programs with my G4 computers. I'd rather invest in redundancy with machines and external drives, but it seems the handwriting is on the wall ... I don't even have an LCD monitor. Any suggestions on a Mini that will navigate the latest browsers and web sites? Thanks. Give some serious consideration to using ubuntu Linux on a used or otherwise cheap Intel machine. I used UNIX long before 1984 and I'm likely biased but I find I can communicate quite easily between my G4 running OS 10.3.9 and my HP box running ubuntu where Firefox runs fine with the latest web nonsense. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: I am forced to go Intel? Common rant, I guess.
For web browsing, movie watching, and word processing, you wouldn't even need a quad core. You could easily use a P4 system. I'm using a P4 3.2GHZ machine and it runs pretty fast. You could get a descent P4 system for $100-$150 easy. -Jonas -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: OT Airport, I'm stumped.
On May 10, 2011, at 11:34 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote: On May 10, 2011, at 11:11 AM, Jeffrey Engle wrote: Is your mothers mini and your iMac using their wired connection for internet connectivity? Yes, both computers are connected to the internet via ethernet (DSL modem) connection... I just set up sharing on my iMac here, and connected with my iPod touch; connected to Google news just to find out that Microsoft wants to buy Skype, which suxgiantrox, you can kiss Skype for the Mac and iPhone goodbye. So you're doing it right, dunno what's going wrong. I'd start from scratch, set it up with no encryption to start, see if it works. hmm.. no security encryption is how I set it up... in every scenario. I don't imagine that the lack of encryption would have anything to do with it? I guess, for now, I'll grab one of these old flying saucer airport base stations I have laying around and take it to moms next time I go so frustrating!! -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: I am forced to go Intel? Common rant, I guess.
On May 10, 1:46 pm, Doug McNutt dougl...@macnauchtan.com wrote: Give some serious consideration to using ubuntu Linux on a used or otherwise cheap Intel machine. If the OP wants Flash, Linux PPC is not the way to go. Last time I tried Ubuntu on a G5, Flash support was horrible. Had a lot of trouble with Bluetooth as well, though my Radeon 9700 was surprisingly functional. Eric -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: I am forced to go Intel? Common rant, I guess.
PPC linux has terrible 3rd party support. Most versions of software say linux but don't specify that it's x86 or x64 only. You can pull it off though. You'll need Debian Linux as it has the best PPC support. On May 10, 2011, at 2:08 PM, imrazor wrote: On May 10, 1:46 pm, Doug McNutt dougl...@macnauchtan.com wrote: Give some serious consideration to using ubuntu Linux on a used or otherwise cheap Intel machine. If the OP wants Flash, Linux PPC is not the way to go. Last time I tried Ubuntu on a G5, Flash support was horrible. Had a lot of trouble with Bluetooth as well, though my Radeon 9700 was surprisingly functional. Eric -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: I am forced to go Intel? Common rant, I guess.
At 10:21 PM -0500 5/9/2011, Kris Tilford wrote: On May 9, 2011, at 9:36 PM, admin wrote: [with more context] Adobe Flash 10.2 Intel only, I believe. Web sites are starting not to work under Leopard and Firefox Camino 2.0.7, Firefox 3.6.17, Safari 5.0.5. I haven't encountered any problems with the final PPC Adobe Flash 10.1.102.64. What problems have you encountered? Web sites are starting not to work under Leopard and Firefox Camino 2.0.7, Firefox 3.6.17, Safari 5.0.5. Example? Yea, specifics please. This sounds more like an anti-intel complaint than anything productive. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
