Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
Le 25/11/2015 17:56, Jesus Guardon a écrit : > > El 19/11/15 a las 23:30, Fabien Bodard escribió: >> 2015-11-19 22:58 GMT+01:00 Moviga Technologies: >>> >>> >>> Looks cool, but my i7 processor can't handle the load :) >> >> too slow for me too > > > Weird enough, my i7 running Kubuntu 14.04 inside a VirtualBox (Running > Yosemite OSX as host) runs flawlessly. It is true that CPU raises near > 70% inside the -limited to 2 cores- guest, so if it was running natively > with 4 cores (8 threads), we couldn't figure out what the reason for > slowness would be. > > My two cents > > Regards, > Jesus Guardon > Read my mail about that, you will have an explanation. It's related to how many mouse move events are received by the application at each event loop (none are ignored by X11 or the GUI toolkit), and that the application redraws everything at each mouse move event. It's not related to the GPU (I mean it's acceptably slow once things are redrawn once by event loop). Regards, -- Benoît Minisini -- Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple OSs. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
El 19/11/15 a las 23:30, Fabien Bodard escribió: > 2015-11-19 22:58 GMT+01:00 Moviga Technologies: >> >> >> Looks cool, but my i7 processor can't handle the load :) > > too slow for me too Weird enough, my i7 running Kubuntu 14.04 inside a VirtualBox (Running Yosemite OSX as host) runs flawlessly. It is true that CPU raises near 70% inside the -limited to 2 cores- guest, so if it was running natively with 4 cores (8 threads), we couldn't figure out what the reason for slowness would be. My two cents Regards, Jesus Guardon -- Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple OSs. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
This is how to use the Timer.Trigger to reduce the calls to the _Draw event. Each time mouse seem to move it call the _MouseMove event so it can be undreds time a second. Then this event call the .refresh method that raiseth _draw event. You have many call more in your code for the .refresh method. So what i've done. I've put two timer one for the mouse event call and one for the drawing. I think maybe only the one for the mouse event will be sufficient. so the mouse event call the timer.trigger thouthen time but the timer event is raised only once by event loop. and you have not a queue that appear with the slow down of your program. Because each call to .refresh will be done event if the content of the _Draw take 0.1 sec so now it is smooth on my machine and you can remove the fast lines. ' Gambas class file Public $hDrawTimer As New Timer As "DrawTimer" Public $hMoveTimer As New Timer As "MoveTimer" Private MouseX As Integer Private MouseY As Integer Public cubes As New ClassCube[] Public Struct Punto3D x As Float y As Float z As Float End Struct 'globles del mouse Public paneando As Boolean Public rotando As Boolean Public mouDownX As Float Public mouDownY As Float Public mouUpX As Float Public mouUpY As Float Public mouX As Float Public mouY As Float Public cgX As Float 'coordenadas del CG en 2D Public cgY As Float Public lastPos As Integer Public mouOut As Boolean ' fuera del area de graficos Public mouDown As Boolean ' fuera del area de graficos Public mouUp As Boolean ' fuera del area de graficos Public Here As Boolean Public mouWheel As Boolean Public mouDelta As Integer Public debugTime As Boolean = True Public fps As Integer Public FaceCubeList[6] As Integer[] 'cubes in face, from 9 to 9 Public FaceRotation[6] As Float[] ' xyz triplets Public FaceCenter[6] As Float Public CurrentFace As Integer Public RotationFilter As Integer[] Public RotationAcumulator As Float Public CenterCube As Integer Public State As Integer Public Const stMixing As Integer = 1 Public Const stStopping As Integer = 2 Public Const stQuiting As Integer = 3 Public Sub Form_Open() $hDrawTimer.Delay = 50 rotando = True Paint3D.Init modMotor3D.ResetMatrizRotacion modMotor3D.escala = 0.5 Generate 'GenerateBigOne End Public Sub Form_Close() If State = stStopping Or state = stMixing Then state = stQuiting Stop Event Else Me.Close End If End Public Sub form_Activate() 'graph_Draw $hDrawTimer.Trigger End Public Sub form_Resize() 'graph_Draw $hDrawTimer.Trigger End Private Sub generate() Dim cube1 As New ClassCube Dim colores1 As New Integer[] Dim p As Punto3D, a As Integer, b As Integer ' size of one cube is 1 'front facing, this is the front/left/low cube cube1 = Null cube1 = New ClassCube colores1 = [Color.Yellow, 0, Color.Green, 0, 0, ] cube1.colores = colores1 cube1.scale = 200 cube1.xcg = -1 * cube1.Scale cube1.ycg = -1 * cube1.Scale cube1.zcg = 1 * cube1.Scale cubes.Add(cube1) cube1 = Null cube1 = New ClassCube colores1 = [Color.Yellow, 0, 0, 0, 0, ] cube1.colores = colores1 cube1.scale = 200 cube1.xcg = 0 * cube1.Scale cube1.ycg = -1 * cube1.Scale cube1.zcg = 1 * cube1.Scale cubes.Add(cube1) cube1 = Null cube1 = New ClassCube colores1 = [Color.Yellow, 0, 0, Color.red, 0, ] cube1.colores = colores1 cube1.scale = 200 cube1.xcg = 1 * cube1.Scale cube1.ycg = -1 * cube1.Scale cube1.zcg = 1 * cube1.Scale cubes.Add(cube1) cube1 = Null cube1 = New ClassCube colores1 = [Color.Yellow, 0, Color.Green, 0, 0, 0] cube1.colores = colores1 cube1.scale = 200 cube1.xcg = -1 * cube1.Scale cube1.ycg = 0 * cube1.Scale cube1.zcg = 1 * cube1.Scale cubes.Add(cube1) cube1 = Null cube1 = New ClassCube colores1 = [Color.Yellow, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0] cube1.colores = colores1 cube1.scale = 200 cube1.xcg = 0 * cube1.Scale cube1.ycg = 0 * cube1.Scale cube1.zcg = 1 * cube1.Scale cubes.Add(cube1) FaceCenter[0] = cubes.Max ' this cube is in the center cube1 = Null cube1 = New ClassCube colores1 = [Color.Yellow, 0, 0, Color.red, 0, 0] cube1.colores = colores1 cube1.scale = 200 cube1.xcg = 1 * cube1.Scale cube1.ycg = 0 * cube1.Scale cube1.zcg = 1 * cube1.Scale cubes.Add(cube1) ' High front row cube1 = Null cube1 = New ClassCube colores1 = [Color.Yellow, 0, Color.Green, 0, Color.blue, 0] cube1.colores = colores1 cube1.scale = 200 cube1.xcg = -1 * cube1.Scale cube1.ycg = 1 * cube1.Scale cube1.zcg = 1 * cube1.Scale cubes.Add(cube1) cube1 = Null cube1 = New ClassCube colores1 = [Color.Yellow, 0, 0, 0, Color.Blue, 0] cube1.colores = colores1 cube1.scale = 200 cube1.xcg = 0 * cube1.Scale cube1.ycg = 1 * cube1.Scale cube1.zcg = 1 * cube1.Scale cubes.Add(cube1) cube1 = Null cube1 = New ClassCube colores1 = [Color.Yellow, 0, 0, Color.red, Color.Blue, 0]
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
Seems to be bug in gb.jit. Please report it in: http://gambaswiki.org/bugtracker Jussi On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:26 PM, martin p cristiawrote: > Thanks for all the critics, help improving things. > > Version 0.1.6 just uploaded to the Farm has the following changes: > > - .Refresh instead of a cached DrawingArea > - prevents click while mixing > - From starting position, mixing time (now displayed at the window's > title after the mix) takes : 3.95 secs with Antialias = False (@ > Fmain.graph_drawer) and 8.00 secs when set to True, what's yours? Cube > actually fly here. > > > (to Jussi) > > -> Sub modMotor3D.fRotateVector complains about receiving a Integer[] at > this line when declared as Fast: > > matrizXmatriz(MatrizRVieja, MatrizRNueva, MatrizRotacion, 3) > > all matrices are declared as Float[], as well as in the multiplication > routine > > -> Sub Paint3D.SortPaths makes Ubuntu pop a Unexpected Error message > when Fast -ened, and program stops without making Gambas crash > > > > > > -- Saludos Ing. Martin P Cristia > > > -- > Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK > Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. > Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. > Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple > OSs. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 > ___ > Gambas-user mailing list > Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user > -- Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple OSs. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
[Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
Thanks for all the critics, help improving things. Version 0.1.6 just uploaded to the Farm has the following changes: - .Refresh instead of a cached DrawingArea - prevents click while mixing - From starting position, mixing time (now displayed at the window's title after the mix) takes : 3.95 secs with Antialias = False (@ Fmain.graph_drawer) and 8.00 secs when set to True, what's yours? Cube actually fly here. (to Jussi) -> Sub modMotor3D.fRotateVector complains about receiving a Integer[] at this line when declared as Fast: matrizXmatriz(MatrizRVieja, MatrizRNueva, MatrizRotacion, 3) all matrices are declared as Float[], as well as in the multiplication routine -> Sub Paint3D.SortPaths makes Ubuntu pop a Unexpected Error message when Fast -ened, and program stops without making Gambas crash -- Saludos Ing. Martin P Cristia -- Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple OSs. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
Now it only shows an empty form... the cube is gone. -- Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple OSs. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
Le 24 nov. 2015 14:39, "Moviga Technologies"a écrit : > > > > I have tried both the old and the new version now on a different machine > with i5 processor. It still lags treribly, processor is 25%. Perhaps it > has something to do with the library and the intel video drivers... Intel here too > -- > Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK > Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. > Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. > Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple OSs. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 > ___ > Gambas-user mailing list > Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user -- Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple OSs. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
Le 24/11/2015 14:36, Moviga Technologies a écrit : > > > I have tried both the old and the new version now on a different machine > with i5 processor. It still lags treribly, processor is 25%. Perhaps it > has something to do with the GL library and the intel video drivers... Antialias painting is slow, but this is not the reason why this program is unusable even on a powerful computer. The reason is that mouse move events are never ignored. If your mouse cursor moves 20 pixels in one direction (for example) between two occurences of the event loop, you will receive 20 MouseMove events, not one. And so the rendering will be done 20 times for nothing. The solution is to add a timer to the form, and instead of calling "graph_draw" at each mouse move event, you trigger the timer instead, and it's the timer event handler that will call "graph_draw". That way, the rendering will be done once by event loop, and not once for each mouse move events. Another bug in the application: don't mix the cube if you have partially move one of its face. All faces will display incorrectly. Regards, -- Benoît Minisini -- Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple OSs. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
New 0.1.5 version pre-processor is 50% faster with some optimization and Fasts. -- Saludos Ing. Martin P Cristia -- Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple OSs. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
I have tried both the old and the new version now on a different machine with i5 processor. It still lags treribly, processor is 25%. Perhaps it has something to do with the GL library and the intel video drivers... -- Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple OSs. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
I cannot get it over 36% of CPU on my system. Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q9550 @ 2.83GHz. [System] Gambas=3.8.90 r7462 OperatingSystem=Linux Kernel=3.13.0-37-generic Architecture=x86_64 Distribution=Linux Mint 17.2 Rafaela Desktop=GNOME Theme=Gtk Language=en_US.UTF-8 Memory=7985M [Libraries] Cairo=libcairo.so.2.11301.0 Curl=libcurl.so.4.3.0 DBus=libdbus-1.so.3.7.6 GStreamer=libgstreamer-0.10.so.0.30.0 GStreamer=libgstreamer-1.0.so.0.204.0 GTK+2=libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0.2400.23 GTK+3=libgtk-3.so.0.1000.8 OpenGL=libGL.so.1.2.0 Poppler=libpoppler.so.44.0.0 QT4=libQtCore.so.4.8.6 QT5=libQt5Core.so.5.2.1 SDL=libSDL-1.2.so.0.11.4 [Environment] CLUTTER_BACKEND=x11 CLUTTER_IM_MODULE=xim DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=unix:abstract=/tmp/dbus-wHsJXdxDP6,guid=f3773ed79637a0b59b8f84a55653267f DEFAULTS_PATH=/usr/share/gconf/cinnamon.default.path DESKTOP_SESSION=cinnamon DISPLAY=:0.0 GB_GUI=gb.qt4 GB_PROFILE_MAX=1000 GDMSESSION=cinnamon GDM_XSERVER_LOCATION=local GIO_LAUNCHED_DESKTOP_FILE=/Desktop/Gambas3.desktop GIO_LAUNCHED_DESKTOP_FILE_PID=7305 GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID=this-is-deprecated GNOME_KEYRING_CONTROL=/run/user/1000/keyring-8zgqt8 GPG_AGENT_INFO=/run/user/1000/keyring-8zgqt8/gpg:0:1 GTK_IM_MODULE=xim HOME= INSIDE_NEMO_PYTHON= LANG=en_US.UTF-8 LC_ADDRESS=fi_FI.UTF-8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=fi_FI.UTF-8 LC_MEASUREMENT=fi_FI.UTF-8 LC_MONETARY=fi_FI.UTF-8 LC_NAME=fi_FI.UTF-8 LC_NUMERIC=fi_FI.UTF-8 LC_PAPER=fi_FI.UTF-8 LC_TELEPHONE=fi_FI.UTF-8 LC_TIME=en_US.UTF-8 LOGNAME= MANDATORY_PATH=/usr/share/gconf/cinnamon.mandatory.path MDMSESSION=cinnamon MDM_LANG=en_US.UTF-8 MDM_XSERVER_LOCATION=local PAPERSIZE=letter PATH=/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/games:/usr/local/games PWD= QT4_IM_MODULE=xim SESSION_MANAGER=local/:@/tmp/.ICE-unix/1808,unix/:/tmp/.ICE-unix/1808 SHELL=/bin/bash SSH_AGENT_PID=1982 SSH_AUTH_SOCK=/run/user/1000/keyring-8zgqt8/ssh TEXTDOMAIN=im-config TEXTDOMAINDIR=/usr/share/locale/ TZ=:/etc/localtime USER= USERNAME= WINDOWPATH=8 XAUTHORITY=/.Xauthority XDG_CONFIG_DIRS=/etc/xdg/xdg-cinnamon:/etc/xdg XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP=X-Cinnamon XDG_DATA_DIRS=/usr/share/cinnamon:/usr/share/gnome:/usr/local/share/:/usr/share/:/usr/share/mdm/ XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=/run/user/1000 XDG_SEAT=seat0 XDG_SESSION_COOKIE=5a45fa29109f0ee2389b1b0355283726-1448289918.898376-273846358 XDG_SESSION_DESKTOP=cinnamon XDG_SESSION_ID=c2 XDG_VTNR=8 XMODIFIERS=@im=none On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Jesus Guardonwrote: > El 19/11/15 a las 23:30, Fabien Bodard escribió: > > 2015-11-19 22:58 GMT+01:00 Moviga Technologies : > >> > >> > >> Looks cool, but my i7 processor can't handle the load :) > > > > too slow for me too > > > Weird enough, my i7 running Kubuntu 14.04 inside a VirtualBox (Running > Yosemite OSX as host) runs flawlessly. It is true that CPU raises near > 70% inside the -limited to 2 cores- guest, so if it was running natively > with 4 cores (8 threads), we couldn't figure out what the reason for > slowness would be. > > My two cents > > Regards, > Jesus Guardon > > > > -- > Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK > Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. > Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. > Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple > OSs. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 > ___ > Gambas-user mailing list > Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user > -- Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple OSs. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
El 19/11/15 a las 23:30, Fabien Bodard escribió: > 2015-11-19 22:58 GMT+01:00 Moviga Technologies: >> >> >> Looks cool, but my i7 processor can't handle the load :) > > too slow for me too Weird enough, my i7 running Kubuntu 14.04 inside a VirtualBox (Running Yosemite OSX as host) runs flawlessly. It is true that CPU raises near 70% inside the -limited to 2 cores- guest, so if it was running natively with 4 cores (8 threads), we couldn't figure out what the reason for slowness would be. My two cents Regards, Jesus Guardon -- Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple OSs. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551=/4140 ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
[Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
It's a Rubik's cube. Hope you enjoy it! -- Saludos Ing. Martin P Cristia -- ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
Looks cool, but my i7 processor can't handle the load :) -- ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
It could be the GPU that is the issue, but anyways, this "simple" graphics should not be that demanding. -- ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
2015-11-19 22:58 GMT+01:00 Moviga Technologies: > > > Looks cool, but my i7 processor can't handle the load :) too slow for me too > -- > ___ > Gambas-user mailing list > Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user -- Fabien Bodard -- ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user
Re: [Gambas-user] New soft at the farm
Strange, I have and athlon 2 x3 (less than an i3) and runs smooth On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 6:58 PM, Moviga Technologieswrote: > > > Looks cool, but my i7 processor can't handle the load :) > -- > ___ > Gambas-user mailing list > Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user -- Ricardo A. Armas -- ___ Gambas-user mailing list Gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gambas-user