Re: [Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
One thing I have noticed though, is that a lot of people playing audio games sort of expect! a game to be learnable the first time. Back in the old atari 2600days, it was quite usualy to stick on a game like space invaders or berzerk and laast approximately five seconds, heck, even when i first played original marrio brothers, I was lucky to complete level 1-1. Admitedly, I was slightly worse at this than other people due to field of vision issues, which probably gave me a little more patience, however if you talk to any old school gamers they will say the same thing, back in the 1980's and even 90's, games had to be a lot harder. While I know there are some people who can really try with a certain game but find it not their thing, or that it requires skills they simply do not have, I am like that myself with grid based puzzles in audio, at the same time I do sometimes wonder how much effort certain people are willing to put into a game. this isn't people's fault, again, reaction based games are very easy to understand and play, however at the same time if we do want! things to change, maybe this is an area people need to considder. Heck, it took me several hours to get to grips with lw, and even now I will admit I'm not particularly good at the game, but I know that to be my own lack of practice and spacial coordination, which, if I sat down with the game for a few days are things I could acquire, rather than explicitely the ault of David greenwood for designing an unplayable game. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
hmmm 2 different perspectives, I never had a console and never played one, my first games were of disks I only learned the real games when I got the net in 95 till then I was not aware of most things. so I am a bit behind in some ways. At 01:58 PM 3/26/2013, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Well, honestly I personally can't relate. I came from a completely mainstream gaming experience before I went blind and so I have a different perspective on this. I didn't play as many text adventures or simple games as some of you have because immediately after losing my sight I went after games like Shades of Doom and Lone Wolf that were more or less like games I had been playing before I lost my sight.That isn't to say I didn't play simple games, I certainly did, but I guess I always maintained a certain level of competency towards more complex games. Cheers! On 3/25/13, shaun everiss wrote: > I know tom and I suspect that although we are caipible a lot of us > me included have been playing simple stuff for ages to adjust is a > bit of a curve, I know it actually frightens me that I can't handle > everything at once. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Hi Shaun, Well, honestly I personally can't relate. I came from a completely mainstream gaming experience before I went blind and so I have a different perspective on this. I didn't play as many text adventures or simple games as some of you have because immediately after losing my sight I went after games like Shades of Doom and Lone Wolf that were more or less like games I had been playing before I lost my sight.That isn't to say I didn't play simple games, I certainly did, but I guess I always maintained a certain level of competency towards more complex games. Cheers! On 3/25/13, shaun everiss wrote: > I know tom and I suspect that although we are caipible a lot of us > me included have been playing simple stuff for ages to adjust is a > bit of a curve, I know it actually frightens me that I can't handle > everything at once. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
I know tom and I suspect that although we are caipible a lot of us me included have been playing simple stuff for ages to adjust is a bit of a curve, I know it actually frightens me that I can't handle everything at once. At 08:16 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Ah, I don't know of a single person running Dos on a 286 these days blind or sighted. That's a bit far fetched don't you think? However, I do take the point that the blind is generally behind the mainstream technologically, and there are good reasons for that. Most of the blind computer users I know and know of are running some flavor of XP primarily because they know it well, it is fully screen reader accessible, and if they were to upgrade to Windows 8 they would pretty much have to learn everything from scratch because the changes in user interface are that drastic. I can use Windows 8, I can live with it, but not everyone can so they choose to stay behind technically. All the same old tech or not that has no bearing on killing the replay value of games. A good game is a good game regardless of what OS it is written for and what programming language it is written in. Even if someone started out with text based games like Infocom and worked their way up to something like Swamp they should be able to learn the new games, be able to adapt to more complicated styles of games, etc. I don't hold with the we are blind so we need it simple stupid theory. We are, most of us, just as capable as a sighted person at playing complex games except we don't have functioning eyeballs so need audio queues instead of graphics. Cheers! On 3/25/13, shaun everiss wrote: > hmmm charles thats interesting. > > There are 2 answers, a long slightly technical one and a shorter user > type of answer. > 1. we are blind everything needs to be easy because we are blind and > that is the way it is. > 2. Lame answer ha? > THe truth is that blind games when they started were never that > complex, I mean interactive fiction and some simple menu games where > it was quite easy to play were my first lot I ever played running on dos. > chances are thats where a lot of the beginners started. > To start off with for the first 5-10 years we didn't have the tech > and other junk the sighted do now. > Its true we don't have everything but we use the same directx > everyone uses just no graphics, we use joysticks, mice and even some > form of big multiplayer the sighted use not many games have the > capability but a lot do. > We started with simple arcaders and board games as well as keyboard > controled ones. > So will we eventually be able to play the harder games, probably the > mainstream stuff is superior to our own but not by much now. > we are almost up to them and thats the truth. > Ok, unfortunately the user base has not caught up to that or even the idea. > A lot of the games we have in circulation right now are simple and > use old tech though a lot are slowly being ported which will take time. > So eventually I have total confordence that we will be able to solve > everything without asking for it. > Right now the tech is upgraded but we are not, the users or at least > some of us are still running dos 3 on a 286 cpu with about 2kb ram > and not the latest things. > and this change may take ages to happen its slowly going on but > who knows when it will fully change and there will always be newcomers. > I do aggree people do ask as soon as they get stuck and I do try to > nut out things if I can. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
true I have friends that do get frustrated when playing games. I also don't read my manuals as much as I should I skim them and I shouldn't I think we are all guilty about not doing the rtfm thing, I am a tech and often I rely on my programs menus or help files and even that sometimes I skim and I am fully aware I should read the documentation. At 07:24 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: Hi Charles, Unfortunately, that sort of mentality isn't limited to blind gamers. There are some people who are so eager to complete the game, so eager to finish it, that they will go to a game FAQ site and read the entire walkthrough just so they can complete the game the first time through. Personally, I've never understood this mindset, but each to their own I guess. As you have noticed we have our own little community right here on Audyssey who seem not to care about challenge or replay value. They download a game at 10 and by 11 they are asking the list for a detailed walkthrough or other how to beat the game. In my opinion its a type of cheating, but who am I to put them down. After all, I think we all enjoy different things, and I guess for some people what matters is winning regardless of how they do it. For me I want to take my time and do it without cheats, walkthroughs, etc unless I am really stuck. Cheers! On 3/24/13, Charles Rivard wrote: > Another thing that I see all the time is this: A new game comes out at 10 > this morning. By eleven, gamers are asking the list for help through > something they have stumbled into. Even if I know the answer, I will not > tell them yet. Part of the challenge of a game is to work on it on! your! > own!!, and figure it out. If you bought a jigsaw puzzle with lettered and > numbered pieces, and it came with instructions that tell you to fit A1 to > A2, and below A2 you should fit B2, and so on until the puzzle is finished, > > what good would that be? Yet that is exactly what some blind gamers want, > and I just flat don't understand this. > > --- > Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Hi Shaun, Ah, I don't know of a single person running Dos on a 286 these days blind or sighted. That's a bit far fetched don't you think? However, I do take the point that the blind is generally behind the mainstream technologically, and there are good reasons for that. Most of the blind computer users I know and know of are running some flavor of XP primarily because they know it well, it is fully screen reader accessible, and if they were to upgrade to Windows 8 they would pretty much have to learn everything from scratch because the changes in user interface are that drastic. I can use Windows 8, I can live with it, but not everyone can so they choose to stay behind technically. All the same old tech or not that has no bearing on killing the replay value of games. A good game is a good game regardless of what OS it is written for and what programming language it is written in. Even if someone started out with text based games like Infocom and worked their way up to something like Swamp they should be able to learn the new games, be able to adapt to more complicated styles of games, etc. I don't hold with the we are blind so we need it simple stupid theory. We are, most of us, just as capable as a sighted person at playing complex games except we don't have functioning eyeballs so need audio queues instead of graphics. Cheers! On 3/25/13, shaun everiss wrote: > hmmm charles thats interesting. > > There are 2 answers, a long slightly technical one and a shorter user > type of answer. > 1. we are blind everything needs to be easy because we are blind and > that is the way it is. > 2. Lame answer ha? > THe truth is that blind games when they started were never that > complex, I mean interactive fiction and some simple menu games where > it was quite easy to play were my first lot I ever played running on dos. > chances are thats where a lot of the beginners started. > To start off with for the first 5-10 years we didn't have the tech > and other junk the sighted do now. > Its true we don't have everything but we use the same directx > everyone uses just no graphics, we use joysticks, mice and even some > form of big multiplayer the sighted use not many games have the > capability but a lot do. > We started with simple arcaders and board games as well as keyboard > controled ones. > So will we eventually be able to play the harder games, probably the > mainstream stuff is superior to our own but not by much now. > we are almost up to them and thats the truth. > Ok, unfortunately the user base has not caught up to that or even the idea. > A lot of the games we have in circulation right now are simple and > use old tech though a lot are slowly being ported which will take time. > So eventually I have total confordence that we will be able to solve > everything without asking for it. > Right now the tech is upgraded but we are not, the users or at least > some of us are still running dos 3 on a 286 cpu with about 2kb ram > and not the latest things. > and this change may take ages to happen its slowly going on but > who knows when it will fully change and there will always be newcomers. > I do aggree people do ask as soon as they get stuck and I do try to > nut out things if I can. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Hi Charles, Unfortunately, that sort of mentality isn't limited to blind gamers. There are some people who are so eager to complete the game, so eager to finish it, that they will go to a game FAQ site and read the entire walkthrough just so they can complete the game the first time through. Personally, I've never understood this mindset, but each to their own I guess. As you have noticed we have our own little community right here on Audyssey who seem not to care about challenge or replay value. They download a game at 10 and by 11 they are asking the list for a detailed walkthrough or other how to beat the game. In my opinion its a type of cheating, but who am I to put them down. After all, I think we all enjoy different things, and I guess for some people what matters is winning regardless of how they do it. For me I want to take my time and do it without cheats, walkthroughs, etc unless I am really stuck. Cheers! On 3/24/13, Charles Rivard wrote: > Another thing that I see all the time is this: A new game comes out at 10 > this morning. By eleven, gamers are asking the list for help through > something they have stumbled into. Even if I know the answer, I will not > tell them yet. Part of the challenge of a game is to work on it on! your! > own!!, and figure it out. If you bought a jigsaw puzzle with lettered and > numbered pieces, and it came with instructions that tell you to fit A1 to > A2, and below A2 you should fit B2, and so on until the puzzle is finished, > > what good would that be? Yet that is exactly what some blind gamers want, > and I just flat don't understand this. > > --- > Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
hmmm charles thats interesting. There are 2 answers, a long slightly technical one and a shorter user type of answer. 1. we are blind everything needs to be easy because we are blind and that is the way it is. 2. Lame answer ha? THe truth is that blind games when they started were never that complex, I mean interactive fiction and some simple menu games where it was quite easy to play were my first lot I ever played running on dos. chances are thats where a lot of the beginners started. To start off with for the first 5-10 years we didn't have the tech and other junk the sighted do now. Its true we don't have everything but we use the same directx everyone uses just no graphics, we use joysticks, mice and even some form of big multiplayer the sighted use not many games have the capability but a lot do. We started with simple arcaders and board games as well as keyboard controled ones. So will we eventually be able to play the harder games, probably the mainstream stuff is superior to our own but not by much now. we are almost up to them and thats the truth. Ok, unfortunately the user base has not caught up to that or even the idea. A lot of the games we have in circulation right now are simple and use old tech though a lot are slowly being ported which will take time. So eventually I have total confordence that we will be able to solve everything without asking for it. Right now the tech is upgraded but we are not, the users or at least some of us are still running dos 3 on a 286 cpu with about 2kb ram and not the latest things. and this change may take ages to happen its slowly going on but who knows when it will fully change and there will always be newcomers. I do aggree people do ask as soon as they get stuck and I do try to nut out things if I can. At 02:13 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: Another thing that I see all the time is this: A new game comes out at 10 this morning. By eleven, gamers are asking the list for help through something they have stumbled into. Even if I know the answer, I will not tell them yet. Part of the challenge of a game is to work on it on! your! own!!, and figure it out. If you bought a jigsaw puzzle with lettered and numbered pieces, and it came with instructions that tell you to fit A1 to A2, and below A2 you should fit B2, and so on until the puzzle is finished, what good would that be? Yet that is exactly what some blind gamers want, and I just flat don't understand this. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play Hi Dark, You aren't the only one who is frustrated. None more so than me since the last few months I've fallen into a kind of funk. One where time has no meaning as such. What I mean by that I might work heavily on the game on February 12, and then discover the next time I work on the game it is March 23. It doesn't seem to me like it has been that long, but it is so easy to loose track of time that days and weeks go by between updates. So much time that the game has been dragging out from months to years. Of course, the principle problem is lack of motivation. I'm no longer driven to work every available minute of every day on it so I get to it when I get to it. What makes matters worse I have not been at my best health wise anyway . Just this week my son caught a nasty cold and now has given it to me. When I have a sore throat, headache, and am coughing I'm not exactly in a mood to sit down and program for hours on end. Add in some cold medicine that makes me tired and the best thing I can do is sleep rather than work. It seems this year I have caught every cold and flu bug coming and going and I've just not felt much like working on games. I'm hoping that somehow I will be able to get back up to my usual productivity, finish these games, get them out, and won't have them hanging over my head. I'm just as eager to see them completed as most people on the list. :D All that aside I know what you mean by wishing to revisit the atmosphere of the game. Shades of Doom doesn't have a very complex storyline as games goes, but it does not need one. The lab is challenging enough with all the various monsters that keeps me coming back over and over again. On the higher difficulty levels there is no certainty that I will even complete a game without being killed off which means I am able to pit myself against the game and sometimes I win sometimes I lose. It is this degree of replay value I hope to incorporate into my own games. On 3/22/13, dark wrote: Hi Michael. On the replayability angle, I often find that games are replayable from the perspective of reexperiencing the atmosphere or story, or just trying to best the tough challenges another time. It is this that has made me replay shade
[Audyssey] killing replay value - Re: replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play
Another thing that I see all the time is this: A new game comes out at 10 this morning. By eleven, gamers are asking the list for help through something they have stumbled into. Even if I know the answer, I will not tell them yet. Part of the challenge of a game is to work on it on! your! own!!, and figure it out. If you bought a jigsaw puzzle with lettered and numbered pieces, and it came with instructions that tell you to fit A1 to A2, and below A2 you should fit B2, and so on until the puzzle is finished, what good would that be? Yet that is exactly what some blind gamers want, and I just flat don't understand this. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] replayability and Usa games was Re: Looking For Something New to Play Hi Dark, You aren't the only one who is frustrated. None more so than me since the last few months I've fallen into a kind of funk. One where time has no meaning as such. What I mean by that I might work heavily on the game on February 12, and then discover the next time I work on the game it is March 23. It doesn't seem to me like it has been that long, but it is so easy to loose track of time that days and weeks go by between updates. So much time that the game has been dragging out from months to years. Of course, the principle problem is lack of motivation. I'm no longer driven to work every available minute of every day on it so I get to it when I get to it. What makes matters worse I have not been at my best health wise anyway . Just this week my son caught a nasty cold and now has given it to me. When I have a sore throat, headache, and am coughing I'm not exactly in a mood to sit down and program for hours on end. Add in some cold medicine that makes me tired and the best thing I can do is sleep rather than work. It seems this year I have caught every cold and flu bug coming and going and I've just not felt much like working on games. I'm hoping that somehow I will be able to get back up to my usual productivity, finish these games, get them out, and won't have them hanging over my head. I'm just as eager to see them completed as most people on the list. :D All that aside I know what you mean by wishing to revisit the atmosphere of the game. Shades of Doom doesn't have a very complex storyline as games goes, but it does not need one. The lab is challenging enough with all the various monsters that keeps me coming back over and over again. On the higher difficulty levels there is no certainty that I will even complete a game without being killed off which means I am able to pit myself against the game and sometimes I win sometimes I lose. It is this degree of replay value I hope to incorporate into my own games. On 3/22/13, dark wrote: Hi Michael. On the replayability angle, I often find that games are replayable from the perspective of reexperiencing the atmosphere or story, or just trying to best the tough challenges another time. It is this that has made me replay shades of doom and Sarah. By the same tocan, i've replayed games like super Metroid and Mega man x 1 more times than I can count, just because the gameplay, design and structure, not to mention atmosphere and music are so perfectly designed. There are several audio games that I view in this same catagory, particularly Gma's offerings. So though I do completely agree random elements are great in games for keeping you on your toes, which is why games like smugglers and kerkerkruip are so awsome, they're not a necessity if design etc works out well. heck, this even goes for arcade games and is the reason i've replayed Q9 and the pinball games despite them being symple arcade titles. whether mota will fall into this catagory I am waiting to see, though i've been impressed enough with what we've seen thus far to think that tom's ability to not just code games but design them is up to the task, which is another reason I would so much appreciate seeing him produce an honest to goodness finished project, bet that the wrestling game, Arc of hope, an acessible castlevania type side scroller, a mission based startrek game or a vampire text rpg, heck I'd even! like to see raceway despite racing games not being a favourite genre of mine. Concepts are great, and what we've sene of Tom's design has been great, I just sometimes feel a little frustrated that with all these ideas we haven't yet seen anything that has gone past a couple of playable levels. I am quite aware that this isn't always Tom's fault, and have followed all the community debates and opinions (some not so flattering) that have been voiced. I am also aware of other commitments, but at the same time I do feel a little like usa games is the tantalus of the accessible games markit and just as we all reach for that big bunch of jui
