Re: gEDA-user: licensing (GPL or otherwise) for hardware?
Andy == Andy Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To continue on the GPL and BSD topic ... Just to clarify: if I use GPLed or BSD-licensed tools to develop hardware, as well as using GPLed symbols/footprints, am I obligated to open-source the hardware design (the schematic, the PCB layout)? Just my two cents: I once asked the author of the Lout typesetting system about whether the output PostScript files wouldn't be covered by GPL since they obviously contained the GPLed PostScript prologue of Lout. IIRC I was told I could run the files through ps2ps which would remove any literal PostSript code. Since the output of a program won't fall under the program's copyright the result wouldn't be covered by GPL. For PCB that might be the same: if you distribute gerber files, you distribute the *output* of PCB, which obviously doesn't contain literal code from the footprints. If you distribute a .pcb-file, that is different though. For M4-generated elements, you are in some way distributing output but in some way a literal copy. GCC has clarifications for their runtime support library. Which seems to be called a license's runtime exception. Symols/footprints seem to need something like that. And if I understand DJs mail correctly that't excactly what a usage license would be. Maybe just make it a usage exception addendum? Also see this link about g++ run-time : http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/17_intro/license.html regards, David -- GnuPG public key: http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~dvdkhlng/dk.gpg Fingerprint: B17A DC95 D293 657B 4205 D016 7DEF 5323 C174 7D40 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: licensing (GPL or otherwise) for hardware?
On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 01:23:13PM -0800, Steve Meier wrote: My position on this is... 1) I use mostly my own symbols for the schematics and only my own land patterns. It is questionable if the release of a hard copy printed schematic or even a pdf would trigger a violation of the GPL. Essentialy in that format they are non-functional you can't do anything with them but view them. 2) The fonts as computer code can be copyrighted but not the output. So Everything can be viewed as a computer code. Imagine a RLE encoded picture - that's a programming language with limited capabilities. There are instructions like Repeat 100x the following instruction and emit a green pixel. ASCII file is also a programming language - it has 1-byte bytecodes like print A, print !, feed a new line, print a space, etc. There is actually no boundary between data and code. CL the use of the fonts includded with both PCB and gschem can be used to produce hardcopy and pdf's or ps files, without triggering a violation of the GPL or any other license. 3) I think the owners of the copyrights to gschem and pcb should state clearly if they desire that designs created using these tools be forced to be also released under the GPL. If not then the verbage of the licenses needs to state clearly how the symbols/land patterns may be used. Thanks, Steve Meier On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 14:48 -0500, DJ Delorie wrote: Just to clarify: if I use GPLed or BSD-licensed tools to develop hardware, as well as using GPLed symbols/footprints, am I obligated to open-source the hardware design (the schematic, the PCB layout)? Common sense says no, but the degrees of freedom (hah hah) in open- source licenses vary greatly, and if I cannot keep my designs proprietary, then I can't use the tools. In general, the *use* of a *tool* to produce something, doesn't assert license over that something. The exception is when the tool inserts - verbatim - some copyrighted content into the output. Thus, the concern over use license of geda's libraries, which would cover this insertion. If you create your own symbol/footprint libraries, there's nothing gEDA's license can do to stop you from producing proprietary boards with it. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: licensing (GPL or otherwise) for hardware?
On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 02:56:53PM -0800, Stephen Williams wrote: Michael Sokolov wrote: On some rare occasions a paid client will have me develop some piece of software or firmware that would actually have value to humanity. On those rare occasions I always ensure that the work gets open-sourced, if necessary without the client's knowledge. Other times I use my clients' ignorance of the precise terms of the GPL and other free software licenses and make them believe that they have to open-source the kernel module I wrote for example, even if they really don't have to. I believe deceiving for a material profit is a criminal act, but deceiving for a public benefit is not illegal. Remind me, if the opportunity ever arises, that I should not hire you for anything. We are about open source here, and *not* *theft*. For that matter, I'm not so sure I want you use any of my software, open source or not. If you don't feel bound to a contract you might sign with a client, what is there to convince me you'll feel yourself bound to the GPL or any other license I grant you without a signature. You're really willing to knowingly lie to a paying customer? GPL is not disrespect for intellectual property rights. Indeed it relies on intellectual property rights to protect the author(s) from misrepresentation, and, frankly, from theft. -- Steve WilliamsThe woods are lovely, dark and deep. steve at icarus.com But I have promises to keep, http://www.icarus.com and lines to code before I sleep, http://www.picturel.com And lines to code before I sleep. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Symbol submission
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi I would think that if the Symbol Submission was integrated within the GUI, that perhaps the Symbol library may be larger then it is now? Just a thought… I have another idea. How about a GUI that allows you to search for a symbol in the gedasymbols.org database? Something like the current Add component dialog except that it communicates with the gedasymbols.org server. It could show the preview of the symbol and then download it into your local symbol directory. It would be faster than starting up the browser, navigating to gedasymbols.org, searching, and downloading to the proper directory. I think I can hack something like this in a day or two with gtk-perl and http::request. Best regards Tomaz -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFgbcwsAlAlRhL9q8RAp7WAJ9ygzL3+Z667wp/LSFGADMpXNq42wCgs+0F dnhZnY/Xj6ec32SpFM4+/SU= =AhFm -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Symbol submission
I think I can hack something like this in a day or two with gtk-perl and http::request. Let me know if you need a custom cgi on gedasymbols.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: licensing (GPL or otherwise) for hardware?
On Thursday 14 December 2006 18:47, Karel Kulhavy wrote: For PCB that might be the same: if you distribute gerber files, you distribute the *output* of PCB, which obviously doesn't contain literal code from the footprints. If you distribute a .pcb-file, that is What about derived work? Isn't a Gerber derived work from the PCB? It is, in the same way that a compiled executable is a derivative work of the source code. Peter -- Fisher Society committeehttp://tinyurl.com/o39w2 CUSBC novices, match and league secretary http://tinyurl.com/mwrc9 CU Spaceflight http://tinyurl.com/ognu2 v3sw6YChw7$ln3pr6$ck3ma8u7+Lw3+2m0l7Ci6e4+8t4Gb8en6g6Pa2Xs5Mr4p4 hackerkey.com peter-b.co.uk pgpDJ48JONqd0.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Projects
Is there a source of completed gEDA projects? I'm starting a project that uses a full wave bridge rectifier, with a three terminal voltage regulator. A simple generic circuit, that wouldn't take me long to layout, but if it has been done before, why re-invent it? Also, a library of simple generic projects could be used as examples by newbies. -- Darryl Gibson N2DIY RLU X 182668/379552 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: GPL and BSD (was: strange build failure)
On 12/14/06, Karel Kulhavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: # #### ## ## # # ## # # # # ## # # # ## ## # # # # # ## ## # ## # # # ## ## ## ## ## ## # # # ## ## ## ## ## # # ## # # ## ## # # # # ## # # ## ## # # # # ## ## ## ## ## # ## # ## ## # Excessive quantities of pound signs can be accumulated into a Bayesian filter just like the rest. Thanks for providing the first message. -- Samuel A. Falvo II ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Symbol submission
Tomaz Solc wrote: How about a GUI that allows you to search for a symbol in the gedasymbols.org database? I think I can hack something like this in a day or two with gtk-perl and http::request. A way to look at a sorted list of all that's on gedasymbols could be helpful. What's a good thing to sort on? Alphanumeric is all I can think would work as is. Should we create some standard category names, a style guideline of naming, to sort symbols with on gedasymbols .org? John G ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Symbol submission
John Griessen wrote: Should we create some standard category names, a style guideline of naming, to sort symbols with on gedasymbols .org? John G Not that I've been good about getting my symbols up on gedasymbols.org, but I've been using the IPC 7351 naming conventions that John Luciani organized. Since John's footprint directory is so big, I see a lot of value in sticking with his system. http://luciani.org/geda/pcb/footprint-name-spec.pdf Phil ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Symbol submission
Peter Clifton wrote: I've also been wondering about the possibilities of plugging back-ends in to communicate with your favorite supplier's online catalog, and link to datasheets, pricing etc. (Again, all blue skies speculation, so The recognizing of useful data from the mishmash of images and text that pdf datasheets are made of is a tough problem. getting that kind of data entered into spreadsheet rows would be useful for design decision making. To do good design decisions, one favorite supplier is not enough -- you need to make the best choice from what's globally available. John G ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Symbol submission
On 12/14/06, John Griessen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A way to look at a sorted list of all that's on gedasymbols could be helpful. What's a good thing to sort on? Alphanumeric is all I can think would work as is. Should we create some standard category names, a style guideline of naming, to sort symbols with on gedasymbols .org? If you use IPC-style names the alphanumeric sort works fairly well. If you add a mfg/mfg_pn suffix you can get a better sort. It would be easy to parse the IPC-style names and populate a database. The naming style I use for my footprints is at http://www.luciani.org/geda/pcb/footprint-name-spec.pdf (* jcl *) -- http://www.luciani.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Symbol submission
On Friday 15 December 2006 01:09, Bob Paddock wrote: If you use IPC-style names the alphanumeric sort works fairly well. If you add a mfg/mfg_pn suffix you can get a better sort. What happens when the company is bought by an other company? Happens all to often. Symlinks? ;) Peter -- Fisher Society committeehttp://tinyurl.com/o39w2 CUSBC novices, match and league secretary http://tinyurl.com/mwrc9 CU Spaceflight http://tinyurl.com/ognu2 v3sw6YChw7$ln3pr6$ck3ma8u7+Lw3+2m0l7Ci6e4+8t4Gb8en6g6Pa2Xs5Mr4p4 hackerkey.com peter-b.co.uk pgp5TtMtyolIC.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Clarifying the License issues for gaf and PCB
From www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html Can I use the GPL for something other than software? You can apply the GPL to any kind of work, as long as it is clear what constitutes the source code for the work. The GPL defines this as the preferred form of the work for making changes in it. I think at this point, in order to avoid confussion. 1) That gaf and pcb need to state if they consider the distributed symbols and land patterns to be code. Assuming that the symbols/land patterns are to be considered code that: 2) Those symbols/land patterns that are released under the expectation that they be released only under the GPL be clearly labled as such. 3) Those symbols/land patterns that are released under the expectation that they be released only under a redistribution license such as the LGPL be clearly labled as such. In all cases, the wishes of the owners of the copyrights need to be respected. At this time, I suggest that a pardon be issued for old designs that missued any symbol or land pattern and that the libraries be organized to avoid such confussion in the future. Thanks, Steve Meier ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Clarifying the License issues for gaf and PCB
Steve Meier wrote: I think at this point, in order to avoid confussion. 1) That gaf and pcb need to state if they consider the distributed symbols and land patterns to be code. I have never considered land patterns to be code. I'd be perfectly happy for a font-like exception being clearly stated for the outputs of pcb (gerber, ps, screen capture etc.) for those (few) symbols/footprints that I've created. The real trouble is that the symbol libraries have been contributed by many different people. It will be very hard to figure out a complete list of who contributed what. I think that there are very few if any footprint/symbol contributors who would object to such a license clarification, but locating them all for verification will probably be quite troublesome. I believe I discussed the issue with Thomas many years ago and he didn't think of the libraries as code either. One solution would be to gut the libraries and start over. That could have the advantage of raising the quality and reliability of the library too (but greatly reducing the count too). For me personally it's never mattered because I've considered the libraries to be so error prone that I've always made my own footprints anyway. harry ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: gedasymbols update
I've reorganized my symbol/footprint library, and pushed out some of the symbols and footprints I'd used in recent boards: http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/dj_delorie/ I also installed a current PCB binary and updated the footprint CGI to support the new Attribute() command for footprints, including a patch to pcb I checked in tonight to handle older file formats. Example: http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/dj_delorie/footprints/2pin/HC-49US.fp Use download to see what the file syntax looks like. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
