Re: gEDA-user: troubles with new snap-to-pad behavior
On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 06:31:43PM -0500, DJ Delorie wrote: 2) This was always true, but is much more noticable now: When you're dragging some things, you don't really want to snap to pins and pads. Eg if you want to slightly move a TANT_D capacitor, you pick it up, move it slightly, and oops, you just snapped to the pad of the very cap you're moving. The snap should at least ignore the moving part. I noticed that myself. I agree that snap-to-myself is bad. I just committed a fix to snap-to-self. If you move an element, it won't snap to any of its own pins or pads. If you move a via, it won't snap to any vias or pins (since it can't go there anyway, and it covers the 'self' case). I entertained the idea of adding other smarts, like only snapping to pads when you're on the same layer, but search.c doesn't make that kind of thing easy. -- Ben Jackson AD7GD [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Icarus Verilog Release 0.8.6
Werner Hoch wrote: ... Unfortunatly I wasn't able to build it for openSUSE 10.3 on x86_64 arch. The bz2_32bit_devel files are no longer part of openSUSE 10.3. ... I ran into the same problem with the development snapshot. I assumed it was just my limited knowledge about the changed packages due to the new library convention. However, when you bring that up it seems like they took this package out? And the following programs are not created: -- RPM build errors: File not found: /var/tmp/verilog-0.8.6-0-root/usr/lib/ivl/vpi64/system.vpi File not found: /var/tmp/verilog-0.8.6-0-root/usr/lib/ivl/system.sft File not found: /var/tmp/verilog-0.8.6-0-root/usr/lib/ivl/system.vpi Possible solutions: * not building the 32bit binaries for x86_64 arch * if its possible, build that binaries without bz2 support * ??? I am asking naive, but is building the bz2 package for 32 bit too complicated to add it to the repository? Do you know what the reason was in first place to remove it? Cheers, Guenter ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: 2 make errors installing gwave
al davis wrote: On Saturday 01 December 2007, Dan McMahill wrote: How well to ascii output files scale when you want to write out 30,000 node voltages and be able to pick out one to plot without it taking a long time? I don't know the answer, but it seems like a binary format could have advantages there. That's one of the reasons gnucap makes you choose the outputs before you run. Lots of node voltages are almost never the variables I actually want. That's all fine and there is a lot of value in only saving a subset of the outputs, but also there are times when someone might run a sim which takes 2 days and needs the ability to do a fair amount of trouble shooting on the results. I'd rather have used up 15 Gb of disk space and have the data than wait 2 more days because I didn't save that one critical waveform. It is still true that 99.9% of the data in that file is probably not useful, but it is a question of nailing that 0.1% before simulating. I do realize that gnucap can provide even more outputs that just the node voltages so maybe the compromise is to not save all of those. -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gerbv - not reading format
Frank, Julian, Thanks for the bug report. It's interesting that sloppy code makes gerbv choke. Moving forward I'd like gerbv to silently flag and identify sloppy code, but keep processing. Later, the user can request a gerber check window which presents him statistics about codes and errors found while processing his files. That way gerbv can become as much a diagnostic tool as a simple viewer. It's on my todo list to implement this type of functionality. One question, however: Does anybody know how common a line with no * is in the universe of gerber files generated by EDA programs? i.e. is this a common (bad) convention? (DJ -- hint hint?) Any thoughts about how to handle it which differ from my proposal? Stuart On Mon, 3 Dec 2007, Julian wrote: Frank, It looks like the RS274x manual has sloppy code in it. The G04 code in line 1 is supposed to end with a * at the end of the line to signal it is finished (see section on G-codes in the manual). gerbv keeps reading until it finds a *, which made it advance past the FS statement in the next line. If you add a final * to line 1, it should work. Maybe we'll look into adding a fix for this problem and let a carriage return also work to finish out a G code, just to make sure we handle this type of malformed code. Thanks for pointing this problem out. Cheers, Julian ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 07:12 +0100, Bert Timmerman wrote: Hi Peter, On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 02:39 +, Peter Clifton wrote: I do have the urge (but not time) to find some 3D models for components. I do happen to have made some 400+ 3D models of components with Autocad for the purpose of just being able to check on height dimensions, the models can be exported as SAT files (or maybe VRML) if you will have them, and if this is a usable format on *nix. Cool.. Its good to hear that there might be some nice models available in the community. I've got very limited knowledge of 3D CAD formats, so don't really know what would be easy to use. I'm tentatively guessing that a board export as VRML with commands to place the component models appropriately would be a more efficient use of time than trying to code a VRML parser and 3D model viewer from scratch. I don't know if gerbv is the way to go 3D. IMHO, it's just a 2D derivative of a pcb file. Its probably not the place for a full 3D preview, certainly. I was looking at GL as a hardware accelerated path for scaling images, and the perspective view was a nice eye-candy bonus. I think the *knowledge* should be implemented as early in the design process as economically possible, and where applicable. This probably ties in to the idea of having a parts database, rather than just using symbol + footprint matched combinations. Can you import VRML into mechanical CAD? -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Enlarged footprints for hand soldering -- name conventions
Stefan Salewski wrote: For hand soldering extended pads are necessary -- so I will create two versions. How should I name the official (manufacturer) and the extended footprints? I have now discovered that just extending pads for hand soldering is not a good solution for all footprints. For DFN landpatterns the problem is, that the large center pad is very close to the outer pads. Slight misalignment will cause short-circuits. Extending the small outer pads will improve soldering, but will make it harder to place the device exactly in the center of the land pattern. So it may be necessary to move the outer pads and to shrink the large center pad. Maybe addition of special orientation marks for exact position of the device may be useful. So name extension like XL, + or M which indicates enlarged footprints are not very good for indication of footprints optimized for hand soldering. Postscript HS seems to be good and is used by a few people, but may be confused with Heat Sink. Should we use MS for Manual Soldering? I think name_HS.fp is not too bad, but maybe name_MS.fp is better? Best regards Stefan Salewski ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:50:30 +, Peter Clifton wrote: Can you import VRML into mechanical CAD? My CAD application, varicad, can't. Varicad seems to be the only serious 3D-CAD available for linux. I would be nice, if pcb could talk to it. I had good import/export success with the step format (ISO 103030). IGES should work too. ---(kaimartin)--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: 2 make errors installing gwave
On Monday 03 December 2007, Dan McMahill wrote: That's all fine and there is a lot of value in only saving a subset of the outputs, but also there are times when someone might run a sim which takes 2 days and needs the ability to do a fair amount of trouble shooting on the results. I'd rather have used up 15 Gb of disk space and have the data than wait 2 more days because I didn't save that one critical waveform. You can probe tran v(nodes) and get all of them. It takes wildcards. probe tran + ids(m*) .. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
Bert Timmerman wrote: It would be to rough for eye-candy, and good enough for checking whether stuff on a pcb fits in a casing of some sort. Just the rough look would be high value in planning and avoiding mistakes... Importing a rough looking model into a blender scene being used to design a box, wiring or flat flex cable routes, etc. would be a boon. So, how fast could you hook pcb to blender? (Just kidding, sort of...) I've not used blender.. doing this properly as a 3D model is going to be a lot more work than a quick trick to use OpenGL for rendering the image of the board. Now that would be an exporter for pcb ;-) And a heck of a dependency for the average user. But, more realistically, it could be a pcb exporter plugin! :-) Blender has python scripting...it's not so outrageous to think of a pcb plugin that would export courtyard shapes in a group, so you use them with Blender and the CAD scripts for setting metric or english grids and measuring distances in the 3d scene... I just like to start rumor-like ideas percolating, not that me or anyone else will find time to execute any of it tomorrow... :-) John Griessen -- Ecosensory Austin TX ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?
Hello, I've been for a while using gschem and pcb though just for practice, I've never materialized anything with them, though now I'm willing to. I'm trying to build a circuit with a cp2102, which has 0.5 mm between pins' center (actually 0.2mm between pins). It is a qfn-28 package. I wanted to ask if anyone has had success with something similiar? my workflow would be printing the schematics as given by pcb in hq paper, and then transferring them with the iron onto the pcb, as I have't got any sort of specialized equipment, I'm just a novice. Regards, Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:39 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Can you import VRML into mechanical CAD? My CAD application, varicad, can't. Varicad seems to be the only serious 3D-CAD available for linux. I would be nice, if pcb could talk to it. I'd call BRLCAD pretty serious. I wonder if the STL file format is appropriate for this application. I have the specs for both versions of STL here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?
On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 10:07:23AM -0800, Lope De Vega wrote: I'm trying to build a circuit with a cp2102, which has 0.5 mm between pins' center (actually 0.2mm between pins). It is a qfn-28 package. I have never played with toner transfer schemes, but I have done boards with 0.5mm pitch packages and had them professionally printed, then I soldered the chips on by hand. I have done it both with a toaster oven reflow process and with a plain old soldering iron. Each method has advantages and disadvantages, but it is doable. Whether or not you can do a toner transfer board with that kind of precision is another matter, and I'm sure DJ can say something about that. Having boards fabbed can be pretty cheap, especially if they're just one or two layers, and especially if you don't want soldermask. It was cheap enough that I skipped right past trying to etch boards myself. These days I do 4-layer boards mostly, so home etching is just not an option anyway. -- Randall ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?
I wanted to ask if anyone has had success with something similiar? I've done 0.4mm pitch TQFP with toner transfer and a soldering iron. It takes some care, but it can be done. 0.5mm pitch is now easy for me. Note, however, that I use Pulsar's coated paper, which gives better results than plain paper, and a Metcal 0.02 conical tip in my iron. I also prefer to reflow SMT parts with a hotplate rather than hand iron them, although I've done it both ways. Is it time for another run of challenge boards? ;-) http://www.delorie.com/pcb/smd-challenge/ http://www.delorie.com/pcb/smd-challenge/old/proto-boards.html http://www.delorie.com/pcb/first.html ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?
On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 10:07:23AM -0800, Lope De Vega wrote: I'm trying to build a circuit with a cp2102, which has 0.5 mm between pins' center (actually 0.2mm between pins). It is a qfn-28 package. Same spacing as QFP, which I've done successfully. I didn't try to toner-transfer it, though! I did have my soldermask ganged by the manufacturer but I was still able to put down a 208 pin QFP without bridges, just using lots of flux. I'm not sure how a home-etch board would fare. FT232R would be easier to put down, I think. -- Ben Jackson AD7GD [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?
These days I do 4-layer boards mostly, so home etching is just not an option anyway. Yes, it is: http://www.delorie.com/electronics/usb-gpio/ And yes, I think we've all agreed that I'm at least partly insane. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?
Randall Nortman wrote: On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 10:07:23AM -0800, Lope De Vega wrote: I'm trying to build a circuit with a cp2102, which has 0.5 mm between pins' center (actually 0.2mm between pins). It is a qfn-28 package. I have never played with toner transfer schemes, Ditto for me... had them professionally printed, then I soldered the chips on by hand. I have done it both with a toaster oven reflow process and with a plain old soldering iron. Same here. Toaster oven is great fun. For hand soldering, round up the *smallest* tip you can for your soldering iron. 1/64 diameter, for instance. Flux is your friend. Having boards fabbed can be pretty cheap, especially if they're just one or two layers, and especially if you don't want soldermask. It was cheap enough that I skipped right past trying to etch boards myself. Yes, having played in the soup many years ago, I'm perfectly happy not to do that part any more. I've use APCircuits, and PCBExpress.com (division of SunStone, not to be confused with expresspcb.com...) both with and without solder mask, and been very happy with the results. A friend swears by Olimex, I've never tried them. The cheapest I've seen for 1 or 2 copies of a board with mask and silkscreen is batchpcb.com, by the SparkFun guys. I currently have 4 designs sitting in panelized status, and I presume right now they are in the soup, or soon will be, someplace in China. I've never tried them before -- I'll post a report when they come back. Minimum order from batchpcb is one square inch -- your order costs $2.50 per square inch, plus $10 *order* set-up (not job set-up, so N designs in 1 order is still $10), plus shipping. You can only order *with* two sided mask and two sided silk. Anyway, at $2.50 per square inch, and a reasonable set-up charge, I can't get motivated to futz with toner transfer. PCBExpress will do 6/6 design rules in their prototype service, but if you back off to 8/8 trace/space and 10 mil screen you will have lots of options for prototyping services. Not to discourage you from trying toner transfer, of course :) I have to say, though, that I'd try it out on something less aggressive than a fine pitch part for the first go. -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Monday 03 December 2007 14:39:18 Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:50:30 +, Peter Clifton wrote: Can you import VRML into mechanical CAD? My CAD application, varicad, can't. Varicad seems to be the only serious 3D-CAD available for linux. I would be nice, if pcb could talk to it. ProEngineer works well on Linux -- it's used in the Engineering department here on OpenSuse 10.2 boxes. Peter -- Peter Brett Electronic Systems Engineer Integral Informatics Ltd signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?
On Monday 03 December 2007 19:19:29 DJ Delorie wrote: Is it time for another run of challenge boards? ;-) Maybe a home fab challenge. :) Peter -- Peter Brett Electronic Systems Engineer Integral Informatics Ltd signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: four-layer builds (was: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?)
On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 01:28:36PM -0500, Randall Nortman wrote: These days I do 4-layer boards mostly, so home etching is just not an option anyway. Who are you using for 4 layer? I just submitted the order that got me started (and then sidetracked several times!) on gEDA/PCB: 5x10 4 layer silk/mask on both sides, 3 for $201 (plus about $20 2-day shipping) for a 10-day turn at Sierra Proto Express. (was 60 sq in x3 for $150 when I started!) -- Ben Jackson AD7GD [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gerbv - not reading format
this a common (bad) convention? (DJ -- hint hint?) No hints from me, I only produce them - I don't process them. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: four-layer builds (was: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?)
Who are you using for 4 layer? I've used 4pcb and Sierra for the two 4-layer boards I've done so far. Both were done well enough to exceed my right to complain :-) If you only need one board, though, pcb-pool has similar design rules. I've used them for 2-layer boards; the drill accuracy is slightly worse (and deliver times much longer) than the other two, but good enough for 6/6/13 rules, and the one-board price is pretty good. BatchPCB does 4-layer too, but it gets expensive as the board size goes up. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Dec 3, 2007 1:24 PM, Dave McGuire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:39 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Can you import VRML into mechanical CAD? My CAD application, varicad, can't. Varicad seems to be the only serious 3D-CAD available for linux. I would be nice, if pcb could talk to it. I'd call BRLCAD pretty serious. I wonder if the STL file format is appropriate for this application. I have the specs for both versions of STL here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user Oops. That will teach me to comment before reading the whole thing. -- http://www.coe.neu.edu/~efoss/ http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?
On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 11:24:36AM -0800, Dave N6NZ wrote: Randall Nortman wrote: The cheapest I've seen for 1 or 2 copies of a board with mask and silkscreen is batchpcb.com, by the SparkFun guys. I've used them before. The board quality is top notch. If you need many of a small design or a very short run, they're good. $2.50/sq in becomes extremely expensive compared to the competition if your board gets too big, though. if you back off to 8/8 trace/space and 10 mil screen you will have lots of options for prototyping services. The other thing to watch out for is min drill size. If you design for someone with a 15mil min drill and then have to adapt it to a fab with something larger (eg custompcb was 24mil, last I checked) you could be in big trouble. -- Ben Jackson AD7GD [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Dec 3, 2007 9:39 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:50:30 +, Peter Clifton wrote: Can you import VRML into mechanical CAD? My CAD application, varicad, can't. Varicad seems to be the only serious 3D-CAD available for linux. I would be nice, if pcb could talk to it. What about brlcad? It has been in development for decades on Unix and now quite a while on Linux. http://my.brlcad.org/ I had good import/export success with the step format (ISO 103030). IGES should work too. ---(kaimartin)--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get -- http://www.coe.neu.edu/~efoss/ http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: four-layer builds (was: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?)
On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 11:30:05AM -0800, Ben Jackson wrote: On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 01:28:36PM -0500, Randall Nortman wrote: These days I do 4-layer boards mostly, so home etching is just not an option anyway. Who are you using for 4 layer? I just submitted the order that got me started (and then sidetracked several times!) on gEDA/PCB: 5x10 4 layer silk/mask on both sides, 3 for $201 (plus about $20 2-day shipping) for a 10-day turn at Sierra Proto Express. (was 60 sq in x3 for $150 when I started!) I have used a few places so far: pcbfabexpress.com: Very good prices for qty 5, but less than 5 is not an option and more than 5 doesn't get you any discount. Good quality, standard 5-day turn. $50 per order (not per board) extra charge for fine-pitch SMT (0.65mm I think). pcbexpress.com (owned by Sunstone): Good prices for medium quantities, like 20 boards. I was unimpressed with the quality when I ordered (nearly 2 years ago). There were two problems: first, they ignored the part of pcb's gerber output that removes silkscreen from pads, which caused a few soldering headaches. Secondly, the drill tolerances were not great, and the preset drill sizes didn't match my board anyway. So with them rounding down my hole size, plus sloppy tolerances on finished hole size, I had to hammer (literally) some of my 100-mil headers in. protoexpress.com (Sierra): My recent orders have all been from here. Excellent quality, expedite at reasonable cost, very reasonable prices for small quantities. Everyboard raves about 4pcb.com, but so far I've never ordered from them because they're usually pretty expensive, at least for the sort of quantities I do. -- Randall ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA for mass production?
Stefan Salewski wrote: Hello, til now I only did hand soldering of prototypes. But I am curious, can gEDA (pcb) data be used for automatic placement and soldering of boards? (This may be a stupid question, but currently I do not know which data board manufactures use for placement of devices.) The footprint origin is available and can be gotten somehow -- I have not done it yet. You will need to make your footprints compatible with the process; probably all with origin at pads centroid, or if you know there is an optimum grab point on top of the package that is not at footprint centroid, make sure that package has its origin there. John Griessen -- Ecosensory Austin TX ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA for mass production?
You need the XY file from the BOM exporter. From what I've been told, there's no standard for part placement files. You need to ask your fab what they want. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA for mass production?
Ff you select export bom an xy file will be generated. This can be used for programing the pick and place equipment. However, it is not suffiecent for programming a flying probe tester which need the locations of each pin and cleared via. Steve Meier On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 21:17 +, Stefan Salewski wrote: Hello, til now I only did hand soldering of prototypes. But I am curious, can gEDA (pcb) data be used for automatic placement and soldering of boards? (This may be a stupid question, but currently I do not know which data board manufactures use for placement of devices.) Best regards Stefan Salewski ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA for mass production?
Steve - On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 12:37:12PM -0800, Steve Meier wrote: Ff you select export bom an xy file will be generated. This can be used for programing the pick and place equipment. However, it is not suffiecent for programming a flying probe tester which need the locations of each pin and cleared via. Right. Which is why an IPC 356 netlist exporter has been on my to-do list for ages. It was discussed on the geda-dev list earlier this year. http://archives.seul.org/geda/user/Jun-2007/msg00019.html - Larry ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gerbv - not reading format
On Dec 2, 2007 9:08 PM, Julian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank, It looks like the RS274x manual has sloppy code in it. The G04 code in line 1 is supposed to end with a * at the end of the line to signal it is finished (see section on G-codes in the manual). gerbv keeps reading until it finds a *, which made it advance past the FS statement in the next line. If you add a final * to line 1, it should work. Maybe we'll look into adding a fix for this problem and let a carriage return also work to finish out a G code, just to make sure we handle this type of malformed code. Thanks for pointing this problem out. Cheers, Julian You may want to check before allowing a CR/LF to end a command. I recall seeing gerber files many years ago that used fixed length records (80 char or 255 char lines). Hitting a CR/LF before a command was finished wold happen all the time - and be legal syntax. Joe T ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA for mass production?
On Dec 3, 2007 2:28 PM, John Griessen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stefan Salewski wrote: Hello, til now I only did hand soldering of prototypes. But I am curious, can gEDA (pcb) data be used for automatic placement and soldering of boards? (This may be a stupid question, but currently I do not know which data board manufactures use for placement of devices.) The footprint origin is available and can be gotten somehow -- I have not done it yet. You will need to make your footprints compatible with the process; probably all with origin at pads centroid, or if you know there is an optimum grab point on top of the package that is not at footprint centroid, make sure that package has its origin there. I've had a design manufactured from gEDA/pcb. Along with BOM documentation, I just sent along the zip file of gerbers and drill files that I sent to the board house. I got no complaints, and the boards were manufactured without problems. I've watched technicians program the pick and place machine manually. Seemed like it only took ten or twenty seconds per part. For a small board, maybe they wouldn't bother with the CAD data. It's probably best to ask your manufacturer. Regards, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mark Rages, Engineer Midwest Telecine LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA for mass production?
... If the industry has its act together enough to make that fully automated, I'd be surprised and pleased. I think that small-quantity prototype assembly doesn't even bother with all that and uses manually-guided pick and place machines. Those would presumably zoom to the coordinates provided in the xy file but then the operator finishes the job with a joystick. Very often they use a vision system that can detect the package boundary and sometimes the pins locations as well. As someone mentioned earlier, the placement origin is usually the part centroid. When the part is not symmetric (e.g. D-PAK) then manual intervention is more likely. Boards that we have had built lately (in runs of 4 to ~ 100) were done in a time frame that would have been impossible if the precess were not mostly automated. Joe T I will know early next year what it takes to actually go beyond the quoting step. ... -- Randall ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA for mass production?
On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 02:28:13PM -0600, John Griessen wrote: Stefan Salewski wrote: Hello, til now I only did hand soldering of prototypes. But I am curious, can gEDA (pcb) data be used for automatic placement and soldering of boards? (This may be a stupid question, but currently I do not know which data board manufactures use for placement of devices.) The footprint origin is available and can be gotten somehow -- I have not done it yet. You will need to make your footprints compatible with the process; probably all with origin at pads centroid, or if you know there is an optimum grab point on top of the package that is not at footprint centroid, make sure that package has its origin there. I have only gotten as far as getting quotes, and for that the gerbers, BOM, and xy file were adequate. I think that because of the lack of any standard for defining the centroid and rotation precisely, assemblers are used to using the provided information as a starting point with manual review. I envision a simple CAD tool that includes a database of package dimensions and takes gerbers, BOM, and an xy file as inputs. A little manual intervention lets the tool find the correct package for each part number in the BOM, and then uses the xy file to draw a shadow/outline of the package over the gerber. The operator adjusts position and rotation manually. If the tool is smart, it will rember the postion/rotation offsets for that particular footprint and use them as defaults for any other parts of the same footprint. I don't think this would take long, and the assembly quotes I got all included NRE (non-recurring engineering) charges which would more than pay for the half an hour of labor to do all that. (NREs also included stencils and frames that hold the boards in place through the process.) If the industry has its act together enough to make that fully automated, I'd be surprised and pleased. I think that small-quantity prototype assembly doesn't even bother with all that and uses manually-guided pick and place machines. Those would presumably zoom to the coordinates provided in the xy file but then the operator finishes the job with a joystick. I will know early next year what it takes to actually go beyond the quoting step. I should also note that many of the shops I got quotes for wanted to handle getting the boards fabbed as well. They outsource this -- usually to Advanced Circuits/4pcb.com for low volume -- but I think they like to get their hands on the gerbers to adjust things like soldermask aperatures to fit their own particular process -- including the properties of the solder paste they intend to use. They also have to manufacture stencils appropriate for their process -- I doubt they just use the paste layer unmodified, since the ideal aperature depends entirely on the type of paste, stencil thickness, etc. The shops specializing in low-volume prototype assembly (which I think is largely manual) were happy to allow me to provide the boards. They still made the stencils from the gerbers. -- Randall ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA for mass production?
John Griessen wrote: Stefan Salewski wrote: Hello, til now I only did hand soldering of prototypes. But I am curious, can gEDA (pcb) data be used for automatic placement and soldering of boards? (This may be a stupid question, but currently I do not know which data board manufactures use for placement of devices.) The footprint origin is available and can be gotten somehow -- I have not done it yet. You will need to make your footprints compatible with the process; probably all with origin at pads centroid, or if you know there is an optimum grab point on top of the package that is not at footprint centroid, make sure that package has its origin there. The .xy file that pcb produces outputs the center as being the centroid of the part and has an algorithm described in the manual for finding rotation. The actual footprint origin is not used for the purposes of creating this file. I have received exactly zero feedback as to if anyone has been able to use that file in the 3 1/2 years since that capability was added to pcb. I can only assume it is the picture of perfection by which all other xy files should be measured to. Either that or no one has use it. -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?
Lope De Vega wrote: SNIP I'm trying to build a circuit with a cp2102, which has 0.5 mm between pins' center (actually 0.2mm between pins). It is a qfn-28 package. I wanted to ask if anyone has had success with something similiar? my workflow would be printing the schematics as given by pcb in hq paper, and then transferring them with the iron onto the pcb, as I have't got any sort of specialized equipment, I'm just a novice. Regards, Not toner transfer but Kinsten brand thin substrate photo boards http://www.thehacktory.com/Simple-IR-RX-Prototype-V1p4-Top.jpg 0.45mm pitch 28pin QFN package with a exposed paddle. So it is quite doable at home. The hardest part is the 0.3mm vias in a drill press with no alignment aids. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA for mass production?
Dan, The xy file has been used for programming a pick and place machine. The vendor never complained to me if they had an issue and I too have assumed that it is written to the letter of perfection. Next time I will ask for explicit feed back from the programmer. Steve Meier On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 16:51 -0500, Dan McMahill wrote: John Griessen wrote: Stefan Salewski wrote: Hello, til now I only did hand soldering of prototypes. But I am curious, can gEDA (pcb) data be used for automatic placement and soldering of boards? (This may be a stupid question, but currently I do not know which data board manufactures use for placement of devices.) The footprint origin is available and can be gotten somehow -- I have not done it yet. You will need to make your footprints compatible with the process; probably all with origin at pads centroid, or if you know there is an optimum grab point on top of the package that is not at footprint centroid, make sure that package has its origin there. The .xy file that pcb produces outputs the center as being the centroid of the part and has an algorithm described in the manual for finding rotation. The actual footprint origin is not used for the purposes of creating this file. I have received exactly zero feedback as to if anyone has been able to use that file in the 3 1/2 years since that capability was added to pcb. I can only assume it is the picture of perfection by which all other xy files should be measured to. Either that or no one has use it. -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?
The hardest part is the 0.3mm vias in a drill press with no alignment aids. http://www.delorie.com/pcb/dremel-stand/ although the dremel shaft itself has about 6 mil of play in it. I've tweaked the drill helper checkbox of the PS exporter to be more suitable for this particular use; in addition, using a pushpin or other sharp metal object, you can pre-poke the right spot and the dremel will wander into it when you drill. I can reliably drill 13.5 mil vias with a 9 mil annulus. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?
I used another trick (some... time ago): make your copper with a hole, That's what the drill helper *does*. But the copper is only 0.7 mil thick (1/2 oz) so a pin produces a much deeper starter spot. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?
DJ Delorie wrote: The hardest part is the 0.3mm vias in a drill press with no alignment aids. http://www.delorie.com/pcb/dremel-stand/ although the dremel shaft itself has about 6 mil of play in it. I've tweaked the drill helper checkbox of the PS exporter to be more suitable for this particular use; in addition, using a pushpin or other sharp metal object, you can pre-poke the right spot and the dremel will wander into it when you drill. I can reliably drill 13.5 mil vias with a 9 mil annulus. http://www.rejon.co.uk/manix_md1h.html Is the little guy I use. The 12K RPM is a bit low for 0.3mm but it is nice in terms of runout/wobble. I want to build my own spindle/BLDC one day when I have time so I can spin the bits and an appropriate speed. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA for mass production?
I have had a few boards mas produced by foxcon with these tools, they had no problems except that the bom was not in MS Excel format. I guess the folks ordering the parts were expecting Excel. Steve On Dec 4, 2007 6:46 AM, Steve Meier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, The xy file has been used for programming a pick and place machine. The vendor never complained to me if they had an issue and I too have assumed that it is written to the letter of perfection. Next time I will ask for explicit feed back from the programmer. Steve Meier On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 16:51 -0500, Dan McMahill wrote: John Griessen wrote: Stefan Salewski wrote: Hello, til now I only did hand soldering of prototypes. But I am curious, can gEDA (pcb) data be used for automatic placement and soldering of boards? (This may be a stupid question, but currently I do not know which data board manufactures use for placement of devices.) The footprint origin is available and can be gotten somehow -- I have not done it yet. You will need to make your footprints compatible with the process; probably all with origin at pads centroid, or if you know there is an optimum grab point on top of the package that is not at footprint centroid, make sure that package has its origin there. The .xy file that pcb produces outputs the center as being the centroid of the part and has an algorithm described in the manual for finding rotation. The actual footprint origin is not used for the purposes of creating this file. I have received exactly zero feedback as to if anyone has been able to use that file in the 3 1/2 years since that capability was added to pcb. I can only assume it is the picture of perfection by which all other xy files should be measured to. Either that or no one has use it. -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: anyone has had success with 0.2mm?
DJ Delorie escreveu: That's what the drill helper *does*. But the copper is only 0.7 mil thick (1/2 oz) so a pin produces a much deeper starter spot. What is the diameter of the drill helper? if it is too small, it will not help much. For what I know the drill has a flat region in the midle (the bigger ones have) I tested many helper diameters, if it is too small it will not help much, if it is too big the hole may start off center and cannot be corrected. Alain ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: gerbv - not reading format
Here are some quick notes that I found from looking up the gerber spec (RS274X_revD). -End every data block with an end-of-block character, typically '*'. (I do not know how you would change it) -Do not break a line within a block from the parameter guidelines -Parameters (things between %) may be entered singly or grouped between delimiter, up to maximum of 4096 characters between delimiters. A maximum of 80 characters between delimiters is recommended. It seems that line breaks are allowed between parameters I don't remember any thing right off from the gerber spec. that allowed more than 4096 char. However, I have not read it again lately. Matthew ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Icarus Verilog Release 0.8.6
Stephen Williams wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I've made a new release on the Icarus Verilog v0_8-branch git branch. This is 0.8.6, which includes various safe fixes and updates to the stable release. The source tarball and release notes are here: I haven't been able to build it because lround() seems to be a c99 thing and not in my old math.h and libm. Any chance of having a replacement implementation for systems which don't have lround? Thanks -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 19:22:52 +, Peter TB Brett wrote: My CAD application, varicad, can't. Varicad seems to be the only serious 3D-CAD available for linux. I would be nice, if pcb could talk to it. ProEngineer works well on Linux -- it's used in the Engineering department here on OpenSuse 10.2 boxes. I didn't know about that one. ---(kaimartin)--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gschem, howto prevent generation of .sch~ backup files?
I never liked a distro cleaning /tmp on boot, i always preferred cleaning /tmp on shutdown. or at least tagging it on clean shutdown. and only deleting it on reboot if the tag is there. i propose having the ability to configure the path for the backup files. this way the default ./ can be changed to anything you want. ./tmp ~/tmp ./.backups ./.SMA( Save My A$$ ) and everyone can be happy. Steve On Dec 3, 2007 11:12 AM, Nathan Kohagen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave N6NZ said the following on 11/29/2007 06:56 PM: ... It may be possible to add an option not to make them though -- please file a feature request. The OP suggested eliminating them. But while I agree with the OP that they are obnoxious, I agree with you that they should exist. I will file a feature request to make them unobstrusive. -dave Emacs and XEmacs allow one to specify where the backup files go. I think a good place for backup files is ~/tmp (a directory in my home directory). This directory will survive reboots unlike /tmp which for many people gets cleared during boot as other people have mentioned. --Nathan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: min annular ring vs drill to copper distance
I recall that there was a drawn symbol on the gerber layer that was a way to denote positive or negative layers i can't find any references on that though. Steve On Dec 3, 2007 1:30 PM, Ben Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Dec 02, 2007 at 08:55:17PM -0800, Ben Jackson wrote: On the other hand it could just indicate an error in their DRC that's interpreting the negative layer wrong at that step. Eg for thermalled vias, it's showing an error where there's thermal relief... Or it COULD be that I set the 'negative' flag incorrectly... Ahem. -- Ben Jackson AD7GD [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gEDA for mass production?
I have had a few boards mas produced by foxcon with these tools, they had no problems except that the bom was not in MS Excel format. I guess the folks ordering the parts were expecting Excel. The machine that I've worked with (a samsung) accepted space/tab/comma separated files (and some others too). Obviously those can also be imported into excel. Unless the parts are created perfectly, and are coming in the form you expect (reel/tube), there is typically a small amount of manipulation required (e.g. rotation) which the machine programmer will do (what helps there is to group all like components together - which they would do in excel). ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: gschem, howto prevent generation of .sch~ backup files?
I opened a feature request on the bug tracker for this topic, so I would suggest that all comments about implementation options and 'druthers be appended to that entry so that the developers can find them easily. -dave Steven Michalske wrote: I never liked a distro cleaning /tmp on boot, i always preferred cleaning /tmp on shutdown. or at least tagging it on clean shutdown. and only deleting it on reboot if the tag is there. i propose having the ability to configure the path for the backup files. this way the default ./ can be changed to anything you want. ./tmp ~/tmp ./.backups ./.SMA( Save My A$$ ) and everyone can be happy. Steve On Dec 3, 2007 11:12 AM, Nathan Kohagen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave N6NZ said the following on 11/29/2007 06:56 PM: ... It may be possible to add an option not to make them though -- please file a feature request. The OP suggested eliminating them. But while I agree with the OP that they are obnoxious, I agree with you that they should exist. I will file a feature request to make them unobstrusive. -dave Emacs and XEmacs allow one to specify where the backup files go. I think a good place for backup files is ~/tmp (a directory in my home directory). This directory will survive reboots unlike /tmp which for many people gets cleared during boot as other people have mentioned. --Nathan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Dec 3, 2007, at 11:28 PM, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: In addition, the user interface is not very intuitive. A simple cylindrical mug takes 14 pages in the manual. True. This is often the case for very powerful software, though. One doesn't do serious 3D work without cracking a manual. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
